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Connor Grey

Why is Jon called Jon?

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It’s generally thought that Ned gave Jon Snow his first name to hide his identity, most likely naming Jon after his mentor Lord Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale. The name ‘Jon’ might also give hint of his real name ‘Aegon’, if you shorten it to ‘Gon’. 

But, could it hint at something else?

In Fire and Blood, we hear that Laenor Velaryon (married to Rhaenyra Targaryen) had a close friend called Joffrey, who was probably his lover. Rhaenyra and Laenor later go on to name one of their sons Joffrey.

If Jon’s father is Rhaegar Targaryen, we notice in the books that a good friend of his is... Jon Connington. In Connington’s POV chapter, his admiration for Rhaegar could be interpreted as romantic love. We don’t know this for sure, or if it was reciprocated. 

But does this leave room for us to wonder if Jon was named after Jon Connington, his father’s lover?

Or perhaps it’s more subtle. Maybe Jon was given his name as cover by Ned, after Jon Arryn, with Jon’s real name being Aegon. But maybe the fact that Rhaegar’s close friend has the same name, is George R.R. Martin giving us a clue that Rhaegar and Jon were lovers, and he reinforces that with the story of Laenor and Joffrey as lovers in ‘Fire and Blood’, with Laenor’s son named Joffrey.

Any thoughts?

 

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I don't buy the idea of Jon being called Aegon, maybe it's just Jon himself and it was convenient for Ned, or if he has a Valyrian name I would like it to be Aemon

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12 hours ago, TedBear said:

I don't buy the idea of Jon being called Aegon, maybe it's just Jon himself and it was convenient for Ned, or if he has a Valyrian name I would like it to be Aemon

But you know that the HBO series went with Jon being Aegon...? Do you think the books will differ on this point?

George Martin picks names carefully, and writes his history as symbolic of the main themes, and to echo what is happening in the main books. The characters we hear called Jon will not be by accident, just as it’s no accident when characters are named Brandon.

What dyou think?

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9 minutes ago, Connor Grey said:

But you know that the HBO series went with Jon being Aegon...? Do you think the books will differ on this point?

George Martin picks names carefully, and writes his history as symbolic of the main themes, and to echo what is happening in the main books. The characters we hear called Jon will not be by accident, just as it’s no accident when characters are named Brandon.

What dyou think?

I refuse to take the show as canon, the writers proved they weren't up to the task of adapting this series when they started deviating from the established story. In fact, I'd say talk about the show has no place on this forum, which is what the administrators have proven in the past as well.

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45 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I refuse to take the show as canon, the writers proved they weren't up to the task of adapting this series when they started deviating from the established story. In fact, I'd say talk about the show has no place on this forum, which is what the administrators have proven in the past as well.

Hi, I agree we can’t take it as given that the books will follow the same path as the show. Some things have already been different, and I’m sure many things in the books will be different. Somethings could be the same, or similar but done in a very different way. So I wasn’t saying that the show was definitive on this particular issue, I was just referring to it, and asking the person if they were aware, and if they still thought it would differ in the books.

Im curious about people’s thoughts about Jon and the context of his parentage. In the show Jon Connington doesn’t exist, so there is no mention of romantic feelings / relationship with Rhaegar. So my suggestion isn’t in line with the show either.

Do you have any thoughts on this issue?

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The show isn't supposed to be discussed in the book forum. This is a better place for show and book discussions. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/forum/39-general-got/

 

That aside, Aegon was still alive so it makes 0 sense to name 2 different kids with the same name. (Hi, I'm Rhaenys. This is my brother Aegon, and this is my other brother Aegon.) If Jon has another name and I'm not convinced at all that he does, a masculinized Visenya would be the most likely if Rhaegar was going with replicating the 3 heads thing.

GRRM said that Ned named Jon. He was named for Jon Arryn and Robb was named for Robert. The Stark kids all have parallels to their namesakes.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1202/

Quote

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

 

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1 hour ago, Connor Grey said:

But you know that the HBO series went with Jon being Aegon...? Do you think the books will differ on this point?

George Martin picks names carefully, and writes his history as symbolic of the main themes, and to echo what is happening in the main books. The characters we hear called Jon will not be by accident, just as it’s no accident when characters are named Brandon.

What dyou think?

Yes, on the TV show they ignored YG and little was said about Rhaegar's two other children. It would be very strange for him to call his two sons Aegon, even though Lyanna had chosen the name it would still be strange, the best name in my opinion would be Aemon, in honor of Maester Aemon. But he could also be called Viserys, if Rhaegar really wanted to form a trio of Dragonriders as the conqueror and his sisters, he had already named his first children Aegon and Rhaenys, would Viserys be for Jon (male version of Visenya, or I understand that it is ) Or maybe it was Jon in honor of Connington just as Egg named his son Duncan, or in honor of northern king Jon Stark (if Lyanna chose).

 

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Posted (edited)

I see no particular reason why Jon's "true Targaryan name" wouldn't be Jon Targaryan (assuming he is legit; if not, his true name is Jon Snow). Never minding that it's as likely as not Rhaegar had no idea Lyanna was pregnant when he went off to war, the mother got to name the babies -- see @Lollygag's GRRM SSM above -- and they aren't bound to stick by the (official) father's family names. All Cersei's children, for example, have historically Lannister names*. If Lyanna lived long enough to give any thought to naming her baby at all, it doesn't seem likely she'd name him anything that would scream DRAGONSPAWN!!! in a kingdom ruled by the guy Rhaegar stole her from. If Rhaegar married her, then Jon's real surname is Targaryen, and the revelation of that would be more than enough to indicate he is Rhaegar's son without him also being named Aegon (or even Aemon--I'm with @tedbear on that, as I think it's Aemon's example he'll follow in the end). I think Lyanna would have been more likely to name him Rickard or Brandon if she got a chance to name him at all.

Edited by Therae
*granted, this sort of means she did stick to the father's family names, but we know it took a lot more than that before anyone thought Jaime was their father...

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53 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

That aside, Aegon was still alive so it makes 0 sense to name 2 different kids with the same name. (Hi, I'm Rhaenys. This is my brother Aegon, and this is my other brother Aegon.) If Jon has another name and I'm not convinced at all that he does, a masculinized Visenya would be the most likely if Rhaegar was going with replicating the 3 heads thing.

Now this is worth exploring. One of my suggestions was that Jon’s name might well be... Jon, rather than Aegon or something else.

If we consider the relationship of Laenor Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen again, as a possible parallel, we find the following further relationships.

Its suggested that whilst Laenor and Rhaenyra had legally recognised sons including Joffrey, it’s rumoured that Rhaenyra was having an affair with Harwin Strong of the Kings Guard, allegedly the strongest man of the day. And it’s rumoured that Harwin is the biological father of Joffrey and the others.

So, what if Rhaegar is Jon’s legal father and Lyanna Stark his mother (I appreciate there are other possibilities). And Jon’s naming by Ned is in honour of his mentor Jon Arryn. But at the same time it is signalling that Jon’s legal father Rhaegar is in love with Jon Connington. And perhaps, if Rhaegar and Jon Con happen to be gay, Lyanna might have taken a lover to father Jon Snow, just as Rhaenyra did. If so, perhaps a candidate could be Sir Arthur Dayne, described by Ned as the finest knight of the day.

But of course, this is just exploring a line of thought, taking off from the widely discussed theory of R + L = J, taking into account Jon Connington’s POV chapter, and the potential parallel relationships in Fire and Blood.

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I think we can discount Jon Connington being the 'inspiration' for Jon Snow's naming. We see no indication that Ned had any idea at all about JonCon's affections, and I don't think we can be sure that even Rhaegar knew of it. And even if Ned did know, would he really have used that name? I don't think so.

I'll take Ned and Gerorge's word: he was named for Jon Arryn.

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Hi, I’m not suggesting Ned would have known about a Jon Connington relationship with Rhaegar. I’m suggesting that either Rhaegar and Lyanna named Jon as Jon (after Jon Con), and Ned stuck with that, seeing it as a suitable name which he might have picked anyway (after Jon Arryn).

Or, Rhaegar and Lyanna (if they are Jon’s legal parents) called him something else, and Ned named him Jon in honour of Jon Arryn. And in this scenario the name Jon could be a signal to us of a relationship between Rhaegar and Jon Con.

George Martin’s writing is full of signals, symbolism and word play, with characters echoing events and themes of the past. This helps make his work great to think and talk about, and pick up for another read.

Im not fixed on this idea either, just thinking it through and hoping to bounce it around with others.

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1 hour ago, Connor Grey said:

Im not fixed on this idea either, just thinking it through and hoping to bounce it around with others.

Consider it bounced off into oblivion?

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1 hour ago, Connor Grey said:

Hi, I’m not suggesting Ned would have known about a Jon Connington relationship with Rhaegar. I’m suggesting that either Rhaegar and Lyanna named Jon as Jon (after Jon Con), and Ned stuck with that, seeing it as a suitable name which he might have picked anyway (after Jon Arryn).

I think if Rhaegar were to name a kid after a close friend that kid would be called Arthur. Even Jon Con knows he wasn’t in Rhaegar innermost circle. 

1 hour ago, Connor Grey said:

Or, Rhaegar and Lyanna (if they are Jon’s legal parents) called him something else, and Ned named him Jon in honour of Jon Arryn. And in this scenario the name Jon could be a signal to us of a relationship between Rhaegar and Jon Con.

Except for the fact that there’s nothing in the text pointing to a relationship between Rhaegar and JonCon other than friendship. I mean, we have JonCon’s thoughts on the matter. 

1 hour ago, Connor Grey said:

George Martin’s writing is full of signals, symbolism and word play, with characters echoing events and themes of the past. This helps make his work great to think and talk about, and pick up for another read.

:agree:

What Martin’s work is not full of, however, is asspulls. Twists that come out of nowhere and whose sole purpose is to shock readers. All the surprising stuff is not that surprising in hindsight. As a good gardener, Martin plants his seeds and diligently nurtures them. 

1 hour ago, Connor Grey said:

Im not fixed on this idea either, just thinking it through and hoping to bounce it around with others.

What @corbon said. :P

Quote

 

 

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Well thank you for your thoughts, I must say I’m surprised at the negativity. If I disagree with someone about ideas on work of fiction, my aim wouldn’t be to shut them down or be hostile. I’m new to this forum, and was hoping to have more open-minded, creative conversation. 

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16 minutes ago, Connor Grey said:

Well thank you for your thoughts, I must say I’m surprised at the negativity. If I disagree with someone about ideas on work of fiction, my aim wouldn’t be to shut them down or be hostile. I’m new to this forum, and was hoping to have more open-minded, creative conversation. 

Are you talking to me? Or me and someone else? Or someone else? Hard to tell. 

And I’m not sure what you mean by “negativity”? In case you were talking to me, I don’t think disagreeing w/ someone qualifies as “negativity”; people do have different opinions on any number of things. “Variety, the spice of life”, and all that. 

How about you provide some textual support for your ideas, to get the ball rolling? Just saying, “I think Rhaegar and JonCon might have had a romantic relationship because of XYZ” instead of just putting an idea forth w/o offering any kind of support for it, for instance. 

I’m all for open-minded and creative conversations, but as I said, just saying “I believe X” w/o backing that up in any way is not really that creative or open-minded, is it?

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Connor Grey said:

It’s generally thought that Ned gave Jon Snow his first name to hide his identity, most likely naming Jon after his mentor Lord Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale. The name ‘Jon’ might also give hint of his real name ‘Aegon’, if you shorten it to ‘Gon’. 

But, could it hint at something else?

Because George was already taken.

(I jape :D)

Quote

In Fire and Blood, we hear that Laenor Velaryon (married to Rhaenyra Targaryen) had a close friend called Joffrey, who was probably his lover. Rhaenyra and Laenor later go on to name one of their sons Joffrey.

If Jon’s father is Rhaegar Targaryen, we notice in the books that a good friend of his is... Jon Connington. In Connington’s POV chapter, his admiration for Rhaegar could be interpreted as romantic love. We don’t know this for sure, or if it was reciprocated. 

But does this leave room for us to wonder if Jon was named after Jon Connington, his father’s lover?

Jon Con wanted this to happen, but it never did.

Quote

Or perhaps it’s more subtle. Maybe Jon was given his name as cover by Ned, after Jon Arryn, with Jon’s real name being Aegon. But maybe the fact that Rhaegar’s close friend has the same name, is George R.R. Martin giving us a clue that Rhaegar and Jon were lovers, and he reinforces that with the story of Laenor and Joffrey as lovers in ‘Fire and Blood’, with Laenor’s son named Joffrey.

Any thoughts?

 

Well, I agree with other posters that Aegon doesn't seem possible to me, and I am not even a fan of Aemon (clarifying: A fan of Aemon as a name for Jon). If Lyanna did give a name, or direction for a name, etc, I kinda feel she would chose something of the north for a few possible reasons (if we are speculating). I think no matter what, Jon's personal decision is going to be what matters and I (along with a few others) believe he is going to be Jon Snow, King of Winter. His identity chosen by him.

  • A Game of Thrones - Jon I

    "Lord Eddard Stark is my father," Jon admitted stiffly.

    Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

    "Half brothers," Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show.

 

Overall, I am fine with Jon being named by Eddard in honor of a friend.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon Snow, King of Winter. His identity chosen by him.

I love it that you thought it was good. And it is, defo. Especially when considering Jon’s role in TWoW, as the de facto king of the Free Folk,

Jon Snow, King of Winter

I’ll add that Jon fully embracing his identity harks back to AGOT and Tyrion telling him to embrace who he is. :cool4:

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I love it that you thought it was good. And it is, defo. Especially when considering Jon’s role in TWoW, as the de facto king of the Free Folk,

Jon Snow, King of Winter

I’ll add that Jon fully embracing his identity harks back to AGOT and Tyrion telling him to embrace who he is. :cool4:

Dog-gone right! :commie:

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Connor Grey said:

Well thank you for your thoughts, I must say I’m surprised at the negativity. If I disagree with someone about ideas on work of fiction, my aim wouldn’t be to shut them down or be hostile. I’m new to this forum, and was hoping to have more open-minded, creative conversation. 

There was no shut down or hostility. You threw something out there. If its good, it will get discussed to death (or you'll get pointed to where it already has been). If its not, it won't. 

Its clear from a number of things that the Rhaegar-Connington thing was pretty much entirely one-way. Think of the descriptions of Rhaegar. Able, dutiful above all, touched by sadness or doom. A singer who learned to fight (well) because he felt it was necessary, but who took no joy in it and rarely competed in the lists despite being one of the most successful jousters of his time.
Then look at Kevan's description of young JonCon. 

Quote

Ser Kevan wished that he could share his certainty. He had known Jon Connington, slightly—a proud youth, the most headstrong of the gaggle of young lordlings who had gathered around Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, competing for his royal favor. Arrogant, but able and energetic. 

Add this 

Quote

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

JonCon was not among Rhaegars closest half dozen friends and confidants.

JonCon was a squire together with Rhaegar, and seems to have had something of a crush on him. But there is no real evidence at all that he was anything more than that, and significant evidence that he wasn't part of Rhaegar's inner circle. There's not much more to say...

Then we add in GRRMs quote that @Lollygag provided already...

Edited by corbon

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On 3/12/2020 at 1:21 AM, Connor Grey said:

It’s generally thought that Ned gave Jon Snow his first name to hide his identity, most likely naming Jon after his mentor Lord Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale. The name ‘Jon’ might also give hint of his real name ‘Aegon’, if you shorten it to ‘Gon’. 

But, could it hint at something else?

In Fire and Blood, we hear that Laenor Velaryon (married to Rhaenyra Targaryen) had a close friend called Joffrey, who was probably his lover. Rhaenyra and Laenor later go on to name one of their sons Joffrey.

If Jon’s father is Rhaegar Targaryen, we notice in the books that a good friend of his is... Jon Connington. In Connington’s POV chapter, his admiration for Rhaegar could be interpreted as romantic love. We don’t know this for sure, or if it was reciprocated. 

But does this leave room for us to wonder if Jon was named after Jon Connington, his father’s lover?

Or perhaps it’s more subtle. Maybe Jon was given his name as cover by Ned, after Jon Arryn, with Jon’s real name being Aegon. But maybe the fact that Rhaegar’s close friend has the same name, is George R.R. Martin giving us a clue that Rhaegar and Jon were lovers, and he reinforces that with the story of Laenor and Joffrey as lovers in ‘Fire and Blood’, with Laenor’s son named Joffrey.

Any thoughts?

 

Because Ned liked the name, i don't see why you have such an issue with it?

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