Jump to content
Connor Grey

Why is Jon called Jon?

Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The circumstances of Jon's birth is that Rhaegar wanted a third daughter out of Lyanna because Elia couldn't have another child or she'd die. She failed obviously, giving birth to a son instead a daughter, which isn't something Rhaegar would've wanted.

GRRM went out of his way to tell us Rhaegar's beliefs were liquid and at the time of Aegon's birth he believed there must be "one more". There's nothing regarding genders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

GRRM went out of his way to tell us Rhaegar's beliefs were liquid and at the time of Aegon's birth he believed there must be "one more". There's nothing regarding genders.

Agreed.

But the rest is rather... dogmatic, no? You and you alone know the exact purpose of that scene? And its a purpose that has no other reference and is completely bonkers in the real world (Lyanna and Rhaegar's real world)?

Ok....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ned named Jon after Jon Arryn.

GRRM may have had Jon Snow, Arryn, and Connington share the same name for some potential misunderstanding on Conningtons part in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/14/2020 at 5:57 AM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

I do not believe R + L = J is true

I think this is the first thing I agree with you since I joined the Forum. 

Why would Rhaegar or even Lyanna name Jon Jon? Maybe Ned changed it. But it's lame. If it was changed, please let it not be Aegon DCCCLXVII. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/12/2020 at 3:50 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I love it that you thought it was good. And it is, defo. Especially when considering Jon’s role in TWoW, as the de facto king of the Free Folk,

Jon Snow, King of Winter

I’ll add that Jon fully embracing his identity harks back to AGOT and Tyrion telling him to embrace who he is. :cool4:

Totally with you and @The Fattest Leech He's embraced who he is and who he is is leading him to become a legendary figure, and to his being embraced by increasing numbers of people.

I find myself wanting to beat my sword on my shield. ( I need a proper emoji)

Edited by bemused
fun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

GRRM went out of his way to tell us Rhaegar's beliefs were liquid and at the time of Aegon's birth he believed there must be "one more". There's nothing regarding genders.

He named his children rhaenys and aegon. He clearly wanted another daughter, not a son if he believed aegon his son by elia to be the ptwp. He wanted three heads like the original aegon I and his sisters, so i pressume he wanted a visenya not a viserys. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

He named his children rhaenys and aegon. He clearly wanted another daughter, not a son if he believed aegon his son by elia to be the ptwp. He wanted three heads like the original aegon I and his sisters, so i pressume he wanted a visenya not a viserys. 

Overall, I do think that Viserys/Visenya is still a very probable name for Rhaegar’s third child.
It would be better than another Aegon, like what the show did. However, let’s follow that thread for a bit. What if book!Jon were originally named Aegon like his half brother? Well, a boy claiming to be Aegon 6 just occupied the Stormlands. Let’s say he manages to sit the throne, and is followed shortly by Jon, discovering his name and heritage. Jon would then be Aegon 7. It’s a massive stretch, but would fit the recurring 7 theme.

I remember an old rumor that his true name is Jaehaerys. That rumor has been debunked, but it would still be fitting if Jon ends the series by negotiating with the Others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Evilgoodguy said:

Overall, I do think that Viserys/Visenya is still a very probable name for Rhaegar’s third child.
It would be better than another Aegon, like what the show did. However, let’s follow that thread for a bit. What if book!Jon were originally named Aegon like his half brother? Well, a boy claiming to be Aegon 6 just occupied the Stormlands. Let’s say he manages to sit the throne, and is followed shortly by Jon, discovering his name and heritage. Jon would then be Aegon 7. It’s a massive stretch, but would fit the recurring 7 theme.

I remember an old rumor that his true name is Jaehaerys. That rumor has been debunked, but it would still be fitting if Jon ends the series by negotiating with the Others.

But why would Rhaegar basically insult his first born son by naming his Aegon when he thinks hes the pwtp?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

But why would Rhaegar basically insult his first born son by naming his Aegon when he thinks hes the pwtp?

Because D&D realized too late that they hadn’t brought up enough significant Targaryen names for Jon be anyone other than Aegon.

the only reason I can imagine Martin would use it is if he wants an Aegon 7, and we know Martin’s better than that.

As for Rhaegar? He’s also better at naming than that; though I find it curious that his firstborn was Rhaenys, since she was Aerion’s youngest.

Edited by Evilgoodguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Evilgoodguy said:

Because D&D realized too late that they hadn’t brought up enough significant Targaryen names for Jon be anyone other than Aegon.

the only reason I can imagine Martin would use it is if he wants an Aegon 7, and we know Martin’s better than that.

As for Rhaegar? He’s also better at naming than that; though I find it curious that his firstborn was Rhaenys, since she was Aerion’s youngest.

Probably because his father rejected Rhaenys due to her Dornish looks and Rhaegar wanted to claim her as his by giving her the girl version of his own name. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/23/2020 at 11:02 AM, corbon said:

Agreed.

But the rest is rather... dogmatic, no? You and you alone know the exact purpose of that scene? And its a purpose that has no other reference and is completely bonkers in the real world (Lyanna and Rhaegar's real world)?

Ok....

It's really not at all complicated or requires much insight. That scene only exists to give context to Jon's birth, that can't be a controversial thing to say. So then it becomes a question of what GRRM thought needed to be included in the scene, why the information is important.

On 9/24/2020 at 12:47 AM, GoldenGail3 said:

He named his children rhaenys and aegon. He clearly wanted another daughter, not a son if he believed aegon his son by elia to be the ptwp. He wanted three heads like the original aegon I and his sisters, so i pressume he wanted a visenya not a viserys. 

And had Rhaegar been around and the other two living when the third popped out a boy he might have shrugged his shoulders and named it Visenya anyway. He wanted three heads, he's got three heads. I don't think the genders are going to matter much because GRRM hasn't given us reason to think they do. And even if they did, two of the kids died so what does it matter now? Why would he make it matter when those two were to die?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

And had Rhaegar been around and the other two living when the third popped out a boy he might have shrugged his shoulders and named it Visenya anyway. He wanted three heads, he's got three heads. I don't think the genders are going to matter much because GRRM hasn't given us reason to think they do. And even if they did, two of the kids died so what does it matter now? Why would he make it matter when those two were to die?

I feel like you miss the point of the original Aegon and his three sisters being what Rhaegar wanted to replicate. so it serves to nounce that he'd want a daughter, not another son.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/22/2020 at 3:55 AM, chrisdaw said:

That said I don't think Jon Connington having the same name as the primary protagonist is without reason. Jon Snow's real name given by his mother/father will certainly be Aegon. So there is the pretender (f)Aegon backed by Jon Connington, both using Jon Snow's names.

Perhaps (f)Aegon doesn't make it because of the baggage Jon Connington still carries with him. And the lesson is Jon Snow can't make it as Aegon Targaryen either because he was Jon, a bastard and Night's Watch member. The baggage he carries with him will mean he can't take his place as Aegon Targaryen on the throne, and he'd be wise to see that and not reach for it or he'll meet a similar fate to (f)Aegon.

I've been wondering why JonCon would have the same first name as one of the main protagonists but I haven't yet come up with a good explanation myself. I like your reasoning here, although I'm not a fan of the 'Jon's 'real' name is Aegon' theory. The only way this would work for me would be if Rhaegar changed his mind from "there must be one more" to needing all three children being born by Lyanna, so he was "starting over" and naming the first kid Aegon again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and to answer OP's question about the Rhaegar x JonCon relationship: As others have already said, it most likely was one-sided as otherwise JonCon would probably be more explicitly thinking about the romance they shared. Plus, I can't see it adding anything to the story. JonCon having had a crush on Rhaegar is his motivation for putting Aegon on the throne. "I've failed the father, I cannot fail the son". The revelation that they actually had a relationship wouldn't matter in any way I can see. (And I say this as someone who would love to see more LGBT characters and relationships in the books, just being realistic here)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/22/2020 at 8:33 AM, chrisdaw said:

It is why the Rhaegar naming Aegon scene exists, those are the circumstances into which Jon is born, his is the song of ice and fire, they believe they're bringing the prince that was promised into the world, and what better name for a king.

Well no. That's Elia and Aegon. But if you want to come right down to details about the whole song of ice and fire, Aegon, the son of Elia, still works on it on a metaphorical level. Aegon was born during winter, on Dragonstone. So, you know, ice and fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, punzerknacker said:

I've been wondering why JonCon would have the same first name as one of the main protagonists but I haven't yet come up with a good explanation myself. I like your reasoning here, although I'm not a fan of the 'Jon's 'real' name is Aegon' theory. The only way this would work for me would be if Rhaegar changed his mind from "there must be one more" to needing all three children being born by Lyanna, so he was "starting over" and naming the first kid Aegon again.

Rhaegar could have changed his mind (as GRRM flagged he was want to do), they could have had word Aegon died, Lyanna could have thought it's all about me and my child so I'm giving him the name. The minutia doesn't matter, it is the Targaryen name of names for the series, fit for the Targaryen king, his who's song is that of ice and fire, the prince that was promised. It is more feathering for the bed for which Jon's choice to lay in or not is the central question of the series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it can be assumed that Rhaegar was naming them after the original three. There are other options for why he chose those names, and why he may not have wanted a Visenya. 

First, he was said to be a romantic, so maybe he chose Rhaenys because she was the loving sister, who sung, and was kind and all the things that Rheagar loves. 

Then maybe he chose Aegon simply because it's 'the name' or it was in the prophecy, or after Aegon V who died when he was born, and would likely have been someone he admired and would want to honor given his relationship with Aemon. I hesitate to put concrete motives on characters with so little information, especially when GRRM could be baiting us into believing the most obvious solution.

As to why not Visenya, well Visery's already existed, she was the one of the three that raised Maegor, and divided the realm would also be a good reason for him not to want a child with that name. I just don't see it as a given. Wanting three heads, and wanting three heads with those names isn't a certainty. 

Aegon is an option for what Jon wound up being named (I suspect Lyanna based on the clues, so Rhaegars intent may be irrelevant) there are hints that it may be this. I did a full reread trying to figure out what his name could be because I found this option stupid. Sadly my reread convinced me that this is his name.

We are shown several characters with the same name as siblings, especially half siblings in world. Or similar variations. Think of all the Walders and Walda's in house Frey. Or Pate and Pate from Dunk and Egg where Dunk even wonders if their mother didn't know any other names. 

Or Arryk and Erryk. He is setting up a precedent for half brothers to have the same name.

Add to this, that Griff and Young Griff are the names given to Jon Con, and Aegon. That means his fake identity is Jon, Young Jon is what that nickname implies connecting their names even more. And both were given to them by the men hiding their identities, not their parents. GRRM did say Ned is the one who decided to call Jon, Jon after all. 

Then there is the use of repeat names in the current generation, that were also in Ned/Rhaegars generation. We are given Rheagar, Aegon, Lyanna, two Jons, Ned, Wylla, two Roberts, Brandon, but there is no Ellia to link up with the Aegon name, and there is no other male Targaryen names in this generation. (only in infants, so the next generation) And all these names except Aegon link up to Jon's birth in some way. 

Then we are given the snippet from the world book about 7 eggs, fire burned out of control, would have died if not for the lord command... (paraphrasing) Egg is the nickname for Aegon, so seven Aegons hatch (we are told by Bloodraven this means stepping up and coming into their own in some way) will be followed by an out of control fire, and that a Lord commander will do something to prevent people from dying. 

This was given to us for a reason.  And EggJon pretty much tells you all you need to know. Like I said I thought it was stupid too, until I started digging into GRRM's naming patterns more deeply. And I think the main reason is:

one, to give us the number seven motif.

Two, to make it difficult to guess.

Three, to give us the Jon as an egg symbolism. And since he's a descendant of the Stone Kings of the North, born in a Stone tower in the lands of the Stony Dornish, son of the Prince of DragonSTONE, he is even a stone egg, metaphorically speaking. But the stone egg metaphor goes away if he has any other name. So I don't like it, but there are lots of clues for it. More than I listed as this was just off the cuff.

Edited by Azarial

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rhaegar wanted Lyanna to name him after his true love, Jon Con. Lyanna was his beard in actuality and their elopement was a mutually agreed upon cover up for Rhaegar's homo tendencies and Lyanna wanting to escape Robert. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/28/2020 at 6:24 PM, Azarial said:

Add to this, that Griff and Young Griff are the names given to Jon Con, and Aegon. That means his fake identity is Jon, Young Jon is what that nickname implies connecting their names even more. And both were given to them by the men hiding their identities, not their parents. GRRM did say Ned is the one who decided to call Jon, Jon after all.

Yes, this makes sense. Still not a fan of the two Aegons, but I hope GRRM will get to wrap it up in a satisfying way that can convince me it was a good decision after all …

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/28/2020 at 9:24 AM, Azarial said:

I don't think it can be assumed that Rhaegar was naming them after the original three. There are other options for why he chose those names, and why he may not have wanted a Visenya. 

"There must be three heads!" Rhaegar said in the flashback with Elia and her son, Aegon. 

Me thinks he did...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...