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Eternally_His

Moral Standpoint Analysis (pt.1): House Bolton vs House Manderly

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35 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

They could potentially defend his switching sides (again) but even Johnnie Cochran would have a hard time getting Roose off of the multiple murder charges he would be facing for the RW. 

:lmao: and so so true!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure you can. The crown wrongfully imprisoned their Lord & then beheaded him. Not to mention they hold that crown by deceit.

So Eddard didn't attempt to meddle with King Robert's will, conduct a coup against Robert's named heir and didn't confess all that in public?

And they hold the crown by King Roberts' will. That Roberts' "loyal friends" like Stannis and Eddard didn't care to give Robert the truth should factor in this.

Edited by Lion of the West

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6 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

So Eddard didn't attempt to meddle with King Robert's will, conduct a coup against Robert's named heir and didn't confess all that in public?

And they hold the crown by King Roberts' will. That Roberts' "loyal friends" like Stannis and Eddard didn't care to give Robert the truth should factor in this.

No, Eddard didn't "attempt" to meddle with his will, he did meddle with his will & for good reason. 

Cersei tore up Robert's will, so no, they don't hold the crown by Robert's will. They hold the crown against Robert's will. 

Ned should have told Robert but seeing as how Robert was on his death bed & couldn't do much about it, I'm willing to give him a pass. 

I don't think you can blame Stannis either considering what happened to the first guy who figured it out. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

So Eddard didn't attempt to meddle with King Robert's will, conduct a coup against Robert's named heir and didn't confess all that in public?

And they hold the crown by King Roberts' will. That Roberts' "loyal friends" like Stannis and Eddard didn't care to give Robert the truth should factor in this.

Plus, Robert's will also explicitly stated that Ned was to rule until Joffrey came of age. Sure, give Lannisters a pass for ignoring that part. But the Starks don't get a pass at all because the Lannisters are right in picking and choosing which parts of the will to honor and which to discard? Ignoring a part of the will is not a wrong thing to do, not at all. Upholding it, on the other hand, is evil. /s

Edited by Eternally_His

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On 4/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, Eddard didn't "attempt" to meddle with his will, he did meddle with his will & for good reason. 

Cersei tore up Robert's will, so no, they don't hold the crown by Robert's will. They hold the crown against Robert's will. 

Ned should have told Robert but seeing as how Robert was on his death bed & couldn't do much about it, I'm willing to give him a pass. 

I don't think you can blame Stannis either considering what happened to the first guy who figured it out. 

My point wasn't that the Lannisters have some great right to the throne. My point was that imprisoning Eddard wasn't very wrongfully done, nor executing him for a crime he confessed when you've got two sides essentially trying to take control over the throne.

I don't claim the Lannisters are some good guys in this, only that I got the impression from your post that you meant the Lannisters were the only ones doing wrong here.

Maybe I misunderstood you and if I did please feel free to elaborate on what you meant.

On 4/2/2020 at 4:40 PM, Eternally_His said:

Plus, Robert's will also explicitly stated that Ned was to rule until Joffrey came of age. Sure, give Lannisters a pass for ignoring that part. But the Starks don't get a pass at all because the Lannisters are right in picking and choosing which parts of the will to honor and which to discard? Ignoring a part of the will is not a wrong thing to do, not at all. Upholding it, on the other hand, is evil. /s

Absolutely and I agree, while practical and probably necessary for Cersei, it was clearly against Robert's will that Cersei should be regent. I'm not giving the Lannisters a pass, I am so used with the Lannisters getting the blame for everything between heaven and earth that I often assume that people are already aware of what the Lannisters did wrong without me having to point it out.

So as clarification; the Lannisters did wrong by not upholding a part of the will as much as Eddard did for not upholding it.

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That will is meaningless, anyway. Robert stated that 'his son' is to rule with the regent. Joffrey isn't his son, and neither is Tommen, and Cersei knew this. Therefore, if we adhered to strict terms of the will, Gendry or Edric should be the beneficiary. Therefore, she is the only one who didn't uphold the will as it was written. Eddard did nothing wrong. He followed the terms of the will as it was written.

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57 minutes ago, Eternally_His said:

That will is meaningless, anyway. Robert stated that 'his son' is to rule with the regent. Joffrey isn't his son, and neither is Tommen, and Cersei knew this. Therefore, if we adhered to strict terms of the will, Gendry or Edric should be the beneficiary. Therefore, she is the only one who didn't uphold the will as it was written. Eddard did nothing wrong. He followed the terms of the will as it was written.

No, Robert specific Joffrey as his son as I recall it, and Eddard changed that to "my heir" which in Eddard's mind was Stannis. Hence Eddard did something wrong even if it was from an outside persepctive of a lesser gravity than what Cersei did.

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19 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

My point wasn't that the Lannisters have some great right to the throne. My point was that imprisoning Eddard wasn't very wrongfully done, nor executing him for a crime he confessed when you've got two sides essentially trying to take control over the throne.

Sure, It gets kind of screwy doesn't it? When thinking of who is in the right/wrong. The Lannisters don't truly have a right to the throne as they hold it under unlawful & false pretenses. Under that assumption, pretty much any rule or command they give is wrong, at least legally. 

Otoh, they do hold the throne, regardless if they should or not & their word is law. Under that assumption imprisoning Eddard & exacting punishment after confession isn't really wrongfully done, at least legally. 

I think, in a way, the actual execution can be argued to have been wrong, as a plea deal of sorts was made with Eddard - confess in front of the realm & be allowed to take the black - & that deal was not withheld. Again, though, the King's word is law so... See what I mean? Clear as mud. :lol:

20 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

I don't claim the Lannisters are some good guys in this, only that I got the impression from your post that you meant the Lannisters were the only ones doing wrong here.

Maybe I misunderstood you and if I did please feel free to elaborate on what you meant.

Not at all & I apologize for the confusion. 

Ned should have told Robert what he found out. He had a moral & legal obligation to his King & his friend to do so. I, personally, don't hold it against him too much because I understand why he did what he did, but that doesn't make it any more right. 

20 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

So as clarification; the Lannisters did wrong by not upholding a part of the will as much as Eddard did for not upholding it.

Agreed. 

18 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

No, Robert specific Joffrey as his son as I recall it, and Eddard changed that to "my heir" which in Eddard's mind was Stannis. Hence Eddard did something wrong even if it was from an outside persepctive of a lesser gravity than what Cersei did.

You are correct. Robert said Joffrey, Ned changed it to "my heir" 

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The Boltons and the Freys will eventually learn that they supported illegitimate claimants (no offense Tommen, you and your sister are still sweethearts) and then they'll be sorry. But being sorry won't help them. They would still suffer and die.

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10 hours ago, Eternally_His said:

The Boltons and the Freys will eventually learn that they supported illegitimate claimants (no offense Tommen, you and your sister are still sweethearts) and then they'll be sorry. But being sorry won't help them. They would still suffer and die.

Both of those houses are run by very amoral leaders, so they do not really care how legal Tommen's claim to crown is.

Besides it is possible that they would do new deals. For instance if Dany comes to Westeros soon enough both Boltons and Freys could become her "loyal" supporters and so they would gain her protection against their enemies. After all their enemies Baratheons, Tullys and Starks were usurpers and so her potential enemies. So both of houses has chances of survival and if they are lucky they could even keep their statuses as overlords of the North and Riverlands :)

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54 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Both of those houses are run by very amoral leaders, so they do not really care how legal Tommen's claim to crown is.

Besides it is possible that they would do new deals. For instance if Dany comes to Westeros soon enough both Boltons and Freys could become her "loyal" supporters and so they would gain her protection against their enemies. After all their enemies Baratheons, Tullys and Starks were usurpers and so her potential enemies. So both of houses has chances of survival and if they are lucky they could even keep their statuses as overlords of the North and Riverlands :)

Lord Walder would probably offer his hand in marriage to Dany in return for The Twins.  Imagine how Martin would write their wedding night.

"Dany wanted to cry, as she saw Lord Walder's thin, spotted tower, slowly emerging from the mass of grey hair at his groin.  "Heh!  Only 19, and your honey's all mine, " he cackled.  "Pleasure me."

"This is the price of the Iron Throne" she told herself, grimly.  "If I look back, I am lost.  Reluctantly, she bent to her task."

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26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Lord Walder would probably offer his hand in marriage to Dany in return for The Twins.  Imagine how Martin would write their wedding night.

"Dany wanted to cry, as she saw Lord Walder's thin, spotted tower, slowly emerging from the mass of grey hair at his groin.  "Heh!  Only 19, and your honey's all mine, " he cackled.  "Pleasure me."

"This is the price of the Iron Throne" she told herself, grimly.  "If I look back, I am lost.  Reluctantly, she bent to her task."

:stillsick:

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21 hours ago, Lord Browndodd said:

I don't hold with Boltons, Bolton fans, Stark-haters and such, but one thing needs to be said in Roose's defence here: he never served up to his liege lord a meal of Umberland sausage flavoured with sauce Karstark.

No, he served his liege lord/king a knife in the gut. Which is worse.

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3 hours ago, Eternally_His said:

No, he served his liege lord/king a knife in the gut. Which is worse.

Indeed. Don’t you worry, though, Sweetie will be avenged. :wub:

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8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. Don’t you worry, though, Sweetie will be avenged. :wub:

Where the Red Priests at when you need them? Maybe one will see Robb's worth and then we'll have Lord Stoneheart, prowling the Riverlands with a wolf's head. Imagine how scared the Lannisters would be, fleeing in terror on the sight of our wolf-man.

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On 4/8/2020 at 3:41 AM, Loose Bolt said:

Both of those houses are run by very amoral leaders, so they do not really care how legal Tommen's claim to crown is.

Besides it is possible that they would do new deals. For instance if Dany comes to Westeros soon enough both Boltons and Freys could become her "loyal" supporters and so they would gain her protection against their enemies. After all their enemies Baratheons, Tullys and Starks were usurpers and so her potential enemies. So both of houses has chances of survival and if they are lucky they could even keep their statuses as overlords of the North and Riverlands :)

So, you want Dany to arrive in Westeros and immediately takes sides, furthering the division between houses and lands, therefore creating and extending more pathetic war? :blink:

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Posted (edited)
On 4/5/2020 at 6:08 PM, Lion of the West said:

My point wasn't that the Lannisters have some great right to the throne. My point was that imprisoning Eddard wasn't very wrongfully done, nor executing him for a crime he confessed when you've got two sides essentially trying to take control over the throne.

I don't claim the Lannisters are some good guys in this, only that I got the impression from your post that you meant the Lannisters were the only ones doing wrong here.

Maybe I misunderstood you and if I did please feel free to elaborate on what you meant.

Nah, the Lannisters are fine. My take on it is that Ned knew his buddy and also knew that he wouldn't ever agree to give Joffrey the crown if he knew the truth, hence why he snitched to Cersei. So he knew what Robert wanted. He still did wrong because by not telling him, he left only two choices, the right one (Stannis) and the wrong one (Joffrey) but he didn't know nor was he interested if Robert considered that choices the adquates one.  

Imprisoning Ned was wrongfully done, however. Killing him was perfectly according the law. Ned did change Robert's will but Cersei had no idea of that, she just showed up and butchered Ned's men taken him prisoner. There was nothing that lawful or rightful in Cersei's actions. She would have to believe that Ned manipulate Robert's will and she clearly didn't care about that, nor she could be more clear about that.

 

 

 

 

Edited by frenin

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12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, you want Dany to arrive in Westeros and immediately takes sides, furthering the division between houses and lands, therefore creating and extending more pathetic war? :blink:

If Dany wants to wear funny hat and sit on very unconfy chair then another war is unavailable. After all Stannis and Cercei would not give up those things without a fight. Besides becoming a follower of a leader who has access to 3 dragons is better choice than staying loyal to a king who has none WMDs.

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9 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

If Dany wants to wear funny hat and sit on very unconfy chair then another war is unavailable. After all Stannis and Cercei would not give up those things without a fight. Besides becoming a follower of a leader who has access to 3 dragons is better choice than staying loyal to a king who has none WMDs.

There are always degrees.

Many fans wants to drown the realm in blood and keep the war going until every percieved, imagined and real slight, injustice or immorality has been settled in an ocean for blood, for each one. Hopefully there will be a Seasnake to this story and put a stop to the bloodshed rather than escalate it.

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