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Alexis-something-Rose

This has been nagging me: Bloodraven, the Stark, Southron Ambitions & the PtwP

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Posted (edited)

No, this is not a thread about how it's all Bloodraven's fault! (sorry this is all bolded, but it's written on a different document and for some reason copy/paste insists that this has to be bold). I hope this is semi-coherent.

Was "southron ambitions" really about Rickard Stark having different ambitions for his House? Was he really looking to rise against House Targaryen? Or was it something else entirely?

The thing is, and as a rule of thumb, the first answer provided in a mystery or a “mystery” is rarely the real answer or the full answer.

  • Who is Jon’s mother? Catelyn thinks it’s Ashara Dayne, but we get introduced to Wylla, and the fisherman’s daughter. 
  • Who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Bran believes it was the little crannogman.
  • Was Rhaegar really trying to recreate the conqueror trio of Aegon? This is what Dany thinks.
  • Were the marriages Rickard Stark was arranging for his children really born out of ambition or was it something else?

For me, there was always something off with this. I know the speculations about checking the power of the Targaryens (a House that no longer had dragons, and was dwindled) or rebelling against the crown. Well that rebellion sure took a long time to happen, didn’t it? And it didn’t happen because one of the members of this so-called alliance was brutally executed alongside his heir. It happened because Aerys called for Ned and Robert’s heads. And even after Jon Arryn called his banners, Hoster Tully stayed well out of it. He joined the fray only after Jon Arryn agreed to marry Lysa.

So yes, I think the fostering of Ned in the Vale, Brandon’s betrothal to Catelyn didn’t have all that much with countering the Targaryens. Lyanna’s own betrothal to Robert, the app says that the marriage proposal came from Robert and that Rickard accepted it. We don’t know what his plans were for her, if he had any at that point. And Ned at 18-19 years old was not even betrothed yet. So those plans for his second born son are a complete mystery.

Things sort of started to click into place when I looked at the Stark family tree. It’s an incomplete family tree, or at least not detailed to the level of the Targaryen one. But there is something extremely interesting about it and that’s the marriage of Melantha Blackwood to Willam Stark. 

Two children are born from that marriage, Edwyle, who was Rickard’s father, and Jocelyn, who was married off into the Vale and gave us those Vale cousins Catelyn mentioned to Robb in ASoS, after he makes his intentions on legitimizing Jon Snow and naming him his heir clear to her.

We don’t really know when Edwyle was born, but he would be a contemporary of Egg and Betha Blackwood’s children, if not a very close kin depending on what Betha and Melantha were to each other.

We know his father died at Long Lake in 226 AC when Raymund Redbeard and his wildlings breached the Wall, and we know his uncle, Artos the Implacable became his regent (he is the lord with the statue in the crypts). We don’t know if he died before Edwyle turned 16 or after. It’s a bit of a handicap trying to figure out ages when we don’t have much to go in the first place, but if he was born the same year his father died, at the latest, then he would have reached his majority by 242 AC.

Edwyle Stark was a half-Blackwood child. This is the very interesting part of his character, I think. 

In 233 AC, a Great Council was called to determine succession. Bloodraven had Aenys Blackfyre beheaded after he promised him safe passage. Bloodraven is sent to the Wall to cool his jets for the rest of his natural life. 

Bloodraven is a Blackwood, same as the Lord of Winterfell. They are kinsmen.

This is where things become interesting, imo. Bloodraven spent close to 20 years on the Wall, and 13 of those years were spent as Lord Commander. He would have had plenty of opportunity to travel to Winterfell and sit with the half-Blackwood lord of Winterfell.

Did Bloodraven go into the crypts? That’s where Bran opened his third eye and reached Jon while he was in the Frostfangs, so there must be some sort of power there that's equivalent to a weirwood. Incidentally, this is as good a place to hide Dark Sister as any, if Bloodraven knew he would be going beyond the Wall to not return.

Did he visit the godswood? Theon saw Bran’s face carved into the weirwood in A Ghost in Winterfell, ADwD 46. We know he hears his name whispered when the leaves rustle. Something similar happens in the weirwood vision Bran had of his father.

What if Bloodraven told the Lord of Winterfell certain things? What if he passed things he knew on to him? What if this lord who shared his blood was receptive to what Bloodraven had to say and even troubled by it? I know, it's a lot of what ifs.

On the other side of Westeros, interesting things are also happening. In 239 AC, Duncan Targaryen also a half-Blackwood and who would be a contemporary of Edwyle, marries Jenny of Oldstones. And she brings with her to court the Ghost of High Heart. An albino woman, with red eyes, possibly with the blood of the children of the forest, touched by the old gods, has accurate dreams and visions lands in Targaryen court. 

Bloodraven leaves court and his family behind. He is replaced by a woman who is similar in looks to him, and has prophetic dreams some six years later. He ends up in the north where he and the lord of Winterfell (and the Warden of the North) are kin through their Blackwood lineage.  

Now, two other things of note in the Stark tree. The first reported marriage outside of the north was Cregan Stark’s to Alysanne Blackwood. Then we have to wait until Beron Stark marries Lorra Royce to see another one. Their son Willam marries Melantha Blackwood (1st or 2nd wife, I don’t think we know). So we have two consecutive marriages with brides brought from outside the north.

Then we get two more marriages, but these ones, it’s a Stark female who is sent away from the north. And both marriages seem to happen under Edwyle’s watch. The first marriage is his sister’s Jocelyn. She is married into House Royce of the junior branch and we know her daughters married into Houses Waynwood, Templeton and Corbray, giving Rickard cousins there. Anya Waynwood could very well be his cousin.

The other marriage is that of Edwyle’s niece, Branda. She was married off into House Rogers of the Stormlands. We know next to nothing about House Rogers, but these are two southern marriages that were made while Edwyle was the Lord of Winterfell. 

So whatever was going with Rickard’s so-called ambitions, marriages outside the north started in earnest during his father’s time as lord.

Edwyle marries into House Locke, the southernmost House of the north, discounting the Neck. There just don’t seem to be Stark marriages with the Neck. House Locke seems to be a knightly House if we go by the other two members that we know of, Ser Mallador Locke and Ser Donnel Locke. And they seem to keep the old gods, if we go by all the time Sybelle Glover used to spend in her godswood or by what Lord Ondrew Locke had to say about the snows and the cold. So House Locke could be a north meets south type House, where they adopted some southern traits, but stick to the main traditions of the north. 

If Edwyle was marrying his sister and his niece into southron Houses, then why didn’t he bring a bride for his son from the south?

I actually have an answer for that!

If we line up dates according to what’s given us in relation to House Targaryen, then Edwyle’s only child, his son Rickard, would have married around the same time as Aerys and Rhaella, or within two years of them, since Brandon was born in 262 AC.

We know that they were married off by their father because the Ghost of High Heart told him that the Prince that was Promised would come from their line. And it’s not like she would have been wrong on that account.

Rickard married his cousin Lyarra. Lyarra Stark is as close to a sibling as Rickard had. The Starks don't fuck their siblings (no matter how hard some want to believe it), but they will marry their cousins, their uncles and their aunts.

What if we are following the same scenario here? The Ghost of High Heart took Bloodraven’s place at court, but Bloodraven is at the Wall until 252 AC. Rickard and his future wife would have been born before Bloodraven became a tree wizard person. What if the same scenario that applied to Aerys and Rhaella and their marriage also applies to Rickard, Lyarra and their marriage. If Jon Snow is the Prince that was Promised (or one of), then yes, the Prince that was Promised would be coming down from their line, through Lyanna. Heck, unless there’s something special about Catelyn’s blood, the next greenseer has come from their line, through Ned. All grandchildren are wargs, and if we go with the notion that Lyanna is Jon’s mother, then it means that Brandon and Benjen’s children would have been wargs as well.

I’ve always had the impression that there was a lot more to Rickard than southern ambitions, and that he might have known a thing or two about the Long Night and this whole Prince that was Promised business, but I never looked at him and his father sharing blood with Bloodraven or even considered that Bloodraven would have traveled to Winterfell and interacted with the Starks (and Old Nan) or walked the halls of Winterfell or spent time in the crypts and the godswood. Bloodraven is so little mentioned in the main series that sometimes I forget he exists. Even in his interaction with Bran, I tend to forget who he was or what he is to Bran.

Even the choice of maester for Rickard is interesting. A bastard Hightower. The Hightowers are said to have dabbled in alchemy, necromancy and other sorceries. They might even be in possession of a glass candle. 

If Barristan Selmy knew about the Ghost of High Heart’s prediction about the Prince that was Promised coming from Aerys and Rhaella’s line, then the odds that Lord Commander Gerold Hightower knew this information is more than plausible. He was present when Rickard and Brandon were executed and he died at the ToJ doing what he considered to be his duty. 

Sure, Rickard could have been doing what he was doing partly for ambition, but I think it had more to do with safekeeping the north and preparing it when the Long Night fell once more. Hoster Tully would never abandon his precious little Cat in her time of need. The riverlands can send food and soldiers. And I don't think Robert Baratheon for all his faults would abandon Ned in his time of need. Lyanna wouldn’t abandon the north either. Maester Aemon is on the Wall, so he’d have the Targaryens covered, plus this is right up their alley. Before long, this would become a massive undertaking to protect the realm. 

I think Rickard held knowledge from his father, so whatever Winterfell had forgotten, as Jojen put it, perhaps they were remembering. But he died and whatever he knew died with him. I do however think that Maester Walys is still out there somewhere, perhaps in Oldtown. If anyone knows the whole truth of the so-called southern ambitions, he would.

I just don't think it's a coincidence that Blackwoods marrying Starks and Targaryens is a coincidence or that Bloodraven ending up on the Wall while a half-Blackwood man is the head of House Stark and the Warden of the North is a coincidence. I think there's something important happening here.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Posted (edited)

I think that Bloodraven is Bran's great great great uncle on side of Blackwoods, Targaryens and Starks.

Furthermore Starks are Targaryens, and Targaryens are Starks.

This is my interpretation of missing information in Stark family tree:

1. Cregan Stark + Alysanne Blackwood =

2. Sarra, Alys, Raya, Mariah

3. Mariah Stark + member of House Blackwood = Melissa Blackwood and other children.

4. Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV Targaryen = Bloodraven, Mya, Gwenis

3. Sarra Stark + member of House Royce = Lorra Royce

4. Lorra Royce + Beron Stark = Willam Stark

3. Alys Stark + member of House Karstark = Alys Karstark

4. Alys Karstark + Brandon Stark = Beron Stark

5. Mya (Bloodraven's sister) + member of House Blackwood = Quentyn (Lord Blackwood, died in 206, possibly he was Bloodraven's nephew), Betha, Melantha, others.

6. Betha Blackwood + Aegon V Targaryen = House Targaryen

6. Melantha Blackwood + Willam Stark = House Stark

2. [Raya] Stark + member of House Flint = ..... two generations of Flints and then [Arya] Flint + Rodrik Stark = Lyarra Stark + Rickard Stark = Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, Benjen.

 

Targaryen-Tully-Stark and Baelish family tree:

1. Aegon IV Targaryen + Falena Stokeworth = Jeyne Lothston

1. Aegon IV Targaryen + Bellegere Otherys = Bellenora, Narha, Balerion

2. Aegon + Jeyne Lothston = The Bastard of Harrenhal (later changed his last name to Whent, and became first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, Shella Whent's grandfather and ancestor of Minisa Whent-Tully, Cat's and Lysa's mother)

3. The Bastard of Harrenhal + Otherys girl = sellsword from Braavos (Littlefinger's and Catelyn's great grandfather, so Cat and Petyr are third cousins) + wife = LF's grandfather who was a hedge knight + wife = Alayne + LF's father = Petyr Baelish

3. Lord Whent (ex-The Bastard of Harrenhal) + wife (maybe Whent was his wife's family name, and he did the same thing as Joffrey Lidden, who thru marriage became Joffrey Lannister) = children + spouses = cousins and siblings Shella, Walter, Oswell, Sarya, Minisa Whents

Shella + Walter = four sons and Wynafrei Whent (the original queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal of 281, now is married with Danwell Frey, ninth son of Walder Frey (Sarya Whent was Walder's fifth wife)

Minisa + Hoster Tully = Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure.

 

Thus all of Catelyn's children are carriers of Targaryen blood thru Cat's ancestor, the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was a secret son of Aegon IV Targaryen and founder of House Whent.

Also all of Eddard's children are carriers of Targaryen blood thru Melantha Blackwood, who was Aegon IV's granddaughter. Which means that Aegon was Bran's great great great great grandfather, and Bloodraven is Bran's great great great uncle on Targaryen side of Bran's family tree.

Mya Rivers-Blackwood, Bloodraven's sister, was Bran's great great great grandmother, so Bloodraven is Bran's great great great uncle on Blackwood side of Bran's family tree.

And Bloodraven's grandmother, Mariah Stark, was Bran's great great great great grandmother, which means that Bloodraven is also Bran's great great great uncle on Stark side of Bran's family tree.

Bloodraven is Bran's 3 times triple-great-uncle, on Stark, Blackwood and Targaryen family trees.

And current Targaryens are partially Starks, because they descended from Betha Blackwood, who was great granddaughter of Mariah Stark. Betha was 1/16 Stark. For example Brown Ben Plumm is also 1/16 Targaryen, and that amount of blood is enough for Dany's dragons to recognize him as their kin. So, if there is some sort of special Old Gods magic in Starks' blood, then Dany still has a bit of it (she is 1/16 Stark because both of Betha's children, who were carriers of 1/32 of Stark genes, upped then thru their children back to 1/16, and because from then on Targaryens married only with Targaryens, their amount of Stark-genes remained on the same level, same as level of their Targaryen-genes). And Bran is 1/64 Targaryen from Melantha Blackwood, and 1/32 + 0,03125/32 Targaryen from Catelyn's ancestor, the Bastard of Harrenhal (that guy was a product of incest between Aegon Targaryen and Jeyne Lothston, who was his daughter, so that's from where those additional 0,03125/32 appeared).

Maybe the Song of Ice and Fire is all about mixing Targaryen and Stark genes, and thru that creating someone, who will be able to control both the dragons and the Old Gods' power. Dany, Jon, Bran and Arya all have some sort of supernatural abbilities. Seems that Sansa is a throwback, genetical failure.

Edited by Megorova

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4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I just don't think it's a coincidence that Blackwoods marrying Starks and Targaryens is a coincidence or that Bloodraven ending up on the Wall while a half-Blackwood man is the head of House Stark and the Warden of the North is a coincidence. I think there's something important happening here.

Interesting all round, and a thought came to me. Bloodraven tells Bran:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."

"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.

 

I wonder if the unnamed mother of Hoster and Brynden Tully was a Blackwood???

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37 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I wonder if the unnamed mother of Hoster and Brynden Tully was a Blackwood???

It's possible. I don't doubt the Tully tree has some Blackwoods in it. Question is, how far back it goes.

I think the Stark tree does yield some of the answers we're looking for, especially when we manage to somewhat line up the date/time. We have 226 AC as a starting point for House Stark.

When I was looking back at some of the things we know from the time of Aegon V, one of the other things that stood out to me was that Daenora Targaryen was the daughter of a Alys Arryn with Rhaegal Targaryen. That Alys Arryn could possibly have been Jasper Arryn's sister (he named his only daughter Alys), which would make Daenora Jon Arryn's cousin. She married Aeron Targaryen and was the mother of that Maegor, making that boy Aegon V's nephew. 

And even Alys Arryn wasn't Jon Arryn's aunt, we still have very fairly recent ties between House Arryn and House Targaryen making it even harder for me to believe that the Starks, the Arryns and the Tullys were fomenting some sort of a rebellion against the Targaryens. 

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There’s loads of interesting stuff in your OP, @Alexis-something-Rose

Super swamped atm but... “I’ll be back!” [insert Schwartzennegger accent].

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7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."

"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear

This is a secret message.

Brynden Blackfish is not Bran's uncle. He is the uncle of Bran's mother.
Bran's real uncles are Benjen Stark and Edmure Tully.

name-day ~ birth-day in GRRM's world.

Your uncle may have been named for me = Your uncle [Benjen] may have been (re)born for me

Bloodraven had Uncle Benjen murdered and resurrected as wight. Zombie Benjen is reborn, and works as Bloodraven's henchman Coldhands.

Bran had to strain to hear = Bran would have found it difficult to hear that his Uncle Benjen was murdered, resurrected as a wight, forgot his old identity, and was guiding Bran into a trap the entire time

Bloodraven is EVIL. Like baiting children with candy and kidnapping them type of evil. This the only way the plot makes sense. GRRM had been luring you into a trap for decades!!

Also
Blackwood blood = blood of weapon developers
Don't ask how I know, it is Classified.

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6 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Zombie Benjen is reborn, and works as Bloodraven's henchman Coldhands.

Not so secret message, GRRM has stated Coldhands is NOT Benjen, there's an SSM somewhere out there

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7 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

[snip]

When I read stuff like this (and it's really nothing against you personally) and it feels like the OP completely failed at what it was trying to convey in the first place. All I was trying to say was that Bloodraven was in the north at the same time his kinsman, a man who shared his Blackwood blood, was the head of Winterfell, which I think is really important to the overall story and what was going on in the north during Edwyle and Rickard's time as lords. This isn't about Bloodraven being a master manipulator. It's about the possible knowledge that he might have imparted to his kin who are responsible for the north and the realm's first line of defense before he disappeared beyond the Wall. 

There are things happening with the Starks that are happening with the Targaryens around the same time, including all those betrothals they're making outside their own bloodline.

That said, Benjen is not Coldhands. GRRM answered that question years ago, so you need to go back to drawing board.

Bloodraven is the ends justifies the means sort of person and that doesn't seem to have changed during his life as a tree. I'm not sure it makes him evil, but having single-minded focus on something is not great either, especially if he ended up making the big oopsie that gave us Euron Crow's Eye.

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If I read it correctly you are saying that 'southron ambitions' is a misinterpretation of marriages(alliances) begun by Bloodraven and Edwyle Stark and continued by Rickon to strengthen the norths position for the long night? Certainly a possibility. I for one agree with you. I don't remember Bloodraven being characterized in the Main books, been a while since reading now. In the Dunk and Egg series he is and he seemed to me to be a true defender of the realm a ruthless and crafty one for sure. Makes sense if he finds out the true danger of another long night he would do what he could to prepare the kingdom for it. Like strengthening the position of the warden of the north with southern marriage alliances. And possibly genetically engineer a family of wargs and dragon riders. (the second possibility is badass! IMO)

Thanks. Great take and fun read.

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46 minutes ago, jthurman14 said:

If I read it correctly you are saying that 'southron ambitions' is a misinterpretation of marriages(alliances) begun by Bloodraven and Edwyle Stark and continued by Rickon to strengthen the norths position for the long night? Certainly a possibility. I for one agree with you. I don't remember Bloodraven being characterized in the Main books, been a while since reading now. In the Dunk and Egg series he is and he seemed to me to be a true defender of the realm a ruthless and crafty one for sure. Makes sense if he finds out the true danger of another long night he would do what he could to prepare the kingdom for it. Like strengthening the position of the warden of the north with southern marriage alliances. And possibly genetically engineer a family of wargs and dragon riders. (the second possibility is badass! IMO)

Pretty much. That's not to say that there couldn't have been some ambition on Rickard's part, but I think the crux of the whole thing was to try and prepare the north for what's coming. So yes, I think that Bloodraven may have been forthcoming with Edwyle who started making plans. 

I think it's just extremely easy to forget that Bloodraven spent 20 years on the Wall and was in very close (or closer proximity) to Winterfell during that time.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

and it feels like the OP completely failed at what it was trying to convey in the first place.

I don't mean to offend. I just want to warn people that the three eyed crow is not an ally. And if people think he is here to help against the Long Night (like D&D), they are sadly mistaken and have fallen for a trap.

16 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's about the possible knowledge that he might have imparted to his kin who are responsible for the north and the realm's first line of defense before he disappeared beyond the Wall. 

What if Bloodraven was the one that brought back the Long Night?

 

I don't know if there were any politics involved between Blackwood kins. Their family tree has not been laid out for us. May be there is. May be there ain't.

But without a doubt, their blood line is magically important to the story. Bloodraven has it. Our current generation Stark has it. Our current generation Targaryen has it.

Now, if we have someone with current Stark & Targaryen blood, rejoining separate branches of Blackwood DNA ... I would say the combination could be more magically potent.

 

16 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That said, Benjen is not Coldhands. GRRM answered that question years ago, so you need to go back to drawing board.

 

17 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Not so secret message, GRRM has stated Coldhands is NOT Benjen, there's an SSM somewhere out there

Coldhands does not have Benjen's soul or memories.
Benjen's body was given an Ice Soul. Like an ice cube, it is still. It cannot move unless someone picks it up and moves it.
Catelyn's body was a given a Fire Soul. Like a flame, it is alive. It has its own personality as it flickers on it own.

Coldhands is a wight that is mind-controlled either by the Others, CotF, or Bloodraven.
While Benjen's dead body is being mind-controlled, the Stark blood/body wargs into his living elk.

I wouldn't call Coldhands Benjen too, as GRRM stated. When he received his Ice soul, he is someone else now.

If anything, the technical term for Coldhands is Zombie Benjen.
Would you guys still call Small Paul Small Paul? Or do you prefer Zombie Small Paul?

Edited by The Map Guy

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I don't mean to offend. I just want to warn people that the three eyed crow is not an ally. And if people think he is here to help against the Long Night (like D&D), they are sadly mistaken and have fallen for a trap.

1. Fuck D&D and the horse they rode on. I cut my losses before the end of season 4.

2. The thread isn't about Bloodraven specifically. If you choose to focus on him, that's fine. I think he's someone who made some really terrible mistakes that are going to be very costly. I am thinking about Euron specifically here and the Damphair TWoW sample chapter. But this thread has nothing to do with that. If you wanna start a Bloodraven is an agent of the Great Other who is trying to corrupt a little boy thread, or whatever, then by all means.

6 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Coldhands does not have Benjen's soul or memories.

Leaf says that Coldhands was killed a long time ago. This was written in the text for some reason.

Anyway. Like I said the purpose of the thread was not to look at how evil Bloodraven is. I was trying to look at "southern ambitions" from a different angle, one that I never saw brought up or discussed.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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On 3/13/2020 at 7:37 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Not so secret message, GRRM has stated Coldhands is NOT Benjen, there's an SSM somewhere out there

Exactly. It’s not an SSM, though. It’s photos of a manuscript for ADwD w/ comments by the editor and Martin that some guy found in a library (I think?) somewhere. And next to “Coldhands” in the text, the editor writes, “Benjen” or something like that, and Martin writes in all caps “NO”.

I have a link somewhere, will post later if someone doesn’t before I can. 

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22 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Pretty much. That's not to say that there couldn't have been some ambition on Rickard's part, but I think the crux of the whole thing was to try and prepare the north for what's coming. So yes, I think that Bloodraven may have been forthcoming with Edwyle who started making plans. 

I think it's just extremely easy to forget that Bloodraven spent 20 years on the Wall and was in very close (or closer proximity) to Winterfell during that time.

It’s an interesting thought. I am curious to know what BR’s relationship to the Starks were when he was LC. Did he make any visits to WF? But whatever information he had and may have shared with Edwyle Stark, you would think he would have shared it with Maester Aemon. I’ve always wondered why BR didn’t keep in touch with Maester Aemon. Perhaps he did but judging from Maester Aemon’s conversation with Jon and Sam, he doesn’t seem any wiser about the Others than anyone else.  

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15 minutes ago, teej6 said:

It’s an interesting thought. I am curious to know what BR’s relationship to the Starks were when he was LC. Did he make any visits to WF?

Bloodraven was with the Night's Watch for almost 20 years. 13 of those were spent as Lord Commander. I don't see how he wouldn't have gone to Winterfell, especially if Winterfell was central to the first Long Night. The men of the Night's Watch like Denys Mallister and Qhorin Halfhand both knew Rickard Stark, because they mention him to Jon. There seems to be continuous interaction between the Starks and the Night's Watch.

20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

But whatever information he had and may have shared with Edwyle Stark, you would think he would have shared it with Maester Aemon. I’ve always wondered why BR didn’t keep in touch with Maester Aemon. Perhaps he did but judging from Maester Aemon’s conversation with Jon and Sam, he doesn’t seem any wiser about the Others than anyone else.  

We don't know that Bloodraven didn't share anything with Aemon. Maester Aemon was well aware of the PtwP and the War for the Dawn.

The interaction between Maester Aemon and Jon on page was very limited. We don't know what Aemon and Jon discussed, but Aemon did tell Jon that knowledge is a weapon and to arm himself well before he rides forth into battle. He did leave him the book with that passage on Lightbringer, which tuned Jon to the knowledge that the sword is not real. We don't know what more things he left for him or what he might have told him that we don't know yet. 

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

We don't know what more things he left for him or what he might have told him that we don't know yet. 

Fair enough as to the first part of your statement but as to the latter part, I have to disagree. We have Jon and Sam’s conversation about the Others and from this it seems to me that they have very little information on them. This leads me to believe that Aemon didn’t know much more that they did or that he didn’t share/ communicate his knowledge with them.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Fair enough as to the first part of your statement but as to the latter part, I have to disagree. We have Jon and Sam’s conversation about the Others and from this it seems to me that they have very little information on them. This leads me to believe that Aemon didn’t know much more that they did or that he didn’t share/ communicate his knowledge with them.

I misunderstood your original statement. I do think Maester Aemon would have tried to prepare Jon as well as he could. It would be interesting is he spoke to him about some of the Targaryen lore for instance and shed light on what they knew or thought they knew.

I don't think Bloodraven himself knew all that much about the dragonglass business or how the Others were defeated during the first Long Night. If he had, he may not have needed to go to the hollow hill beyond the Wall to become a decayed tree person and I wonder if the Wall did for his brand of sorcery what it has done for Melisandre's.

That said, I think there's a difference between knowing the Long Night is coming and knowing how to beat the Others. All anyone can really do is try to get ahead of it and prepare as well as they can.

It's not all that different from what the world is presently going through with the virus.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Do we know for a certainty that The Others were already migrating south during Rickards Reign - I agree with your theory and I believe they probably were but is it said in the text?

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13 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

2. The thread isn't about Bloodraven specifically. If you choose to focus on him, that's fine. I think he's someone who made some really terrible mistakes that are going to be very costly. I am thinking about Euron specifically here and the Damphair TWoW sample chapter. But this thread has nothing to do with that. If you wanna start a Bloodraven is an agent of the Great Other who is trying to corrupt a little boy thread, or whatever, then by all means.

The more I think about it, I like your fan-fic theory and how Bloodraven flirted with a Northern rebellion to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty using marriages. Though using multiple generations to conspire against the crown makes it less plausible ... BUT I do believe Bloodraven is using multiple generations of his own blood to rebel against the Targaryens too (the Dark Sister Rebellion).

The only thing I do not like is how the momentum of this Bloodraven/Northern conspiracy stopped with Marna Locke of House Locke, a Northern house. We have Lorra Royce with the Vale, Melantha Blackwood with the Riverlands, Marna Locke with the North, Lyarra Stark with the North again, and then Catelyn Tully of the Riverlands.

A reasonable candidate for this Bloodraven/Northern Conspiracy that would replace Marna Locke could be a lady from the Westerlands or the Iron Islands, may be even some lady from the Reach.

Anyways, we do not know what happened with all these older ladies, so we can only speculate with the little information we have.

Off Topic:
Marna Locke kind of sounds like Lockheed Martin, an American aerospace company, a weapons manufacturer.

I wonder if the sigil of House Locke has anything to do with anything ... twin bronze keys crossed together, with a vertical white streak on a purple background.

13 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

1. Fuck D&D and the horse they rode on. I cut my losses before the end of season 4.

Now that I think of it, there was a TV-only character in HBO GoT named Locke. I wonder if he is from House Locke.
As side from Samwell/Gilly, I think Locke was the only character that interacted with Jon Snow, and later with Bran, Meera, Jojen & Hodor. I also found it funny that Jon actually trusted Locke, even though he was playing him the whole time. I wonder if "Locke" or "House Locke" would unlock anything in the future lol.

 

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Here’s the link to the photo in question:

https://m.imgur.com/FfI1goA?r

Honestly if Coldhands = "Zombie Benjen" ... and if I was asked if Coldhands = "Benjen" ... I would say No too. 

I like how GRRM didn't answer the second question.

Trust me, Coldhands = Zombie Benjen because I know the origin of the name "Benjen". Let's just say Coldhands will be playing around with some keys in the future.

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