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Nagini's Neville

Could Sansa end up marrying Edric Storm?

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, the biggest example for a marriage where one was considerably older than the other is the marriage between Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully. One of the reasons why that marriage wasn’t happy was because he was several decades her senior. They couldn’t connect on an emotional level and she eventually murdered him.

Counterpoint: Cersei and Robert and Elia and Rhaegar.

All I'm saying is that the happy marriages we know of seem to have an unknown age gap (outside of Cat and Ned). 

Edited by violentdelights

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Posted (edited)

@violentdelights Sansa's thought on Mya and Lothor Brune comes after Littlefinger said that younger girls are always happier with older men (:ack:). Sansa internalizing that comment and projecting that to someone else should not be considered "maturing". It's sexual grooming plain and simple. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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In terms of romance only Ned/Catelyn, Sam/Gilly and Oberyn/Ellaria have proven themselves to be healthy couples. The rest are pretty trash. 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@violentdelights Sansa's thought on Mya and Lothor Brune comes after Littlefinger said that Older men and younger girls make the best match. Sansa internalizing that comment and projecting that to someone else is not something to be considered "maturing". It's sexual grooming plain and simple. 

You really do a disservice to Sansa's character by refusing to acknowledge her changing views. Her time at KL have not only changed her views on family (wrt Jon and Arya), but also romance and marriage. Sansa does not approve of the Lothor/Mya romance based on Petyr's reasoning that older men are happy with younger women. She approves of it because of pragmatic reasons: Lothor and Mya are both low-born, Lothor makes her smile, Mya's not a maid. She doesn't bring up his age as an indictment against him nor as a necessary component to healthy or happy relationship as Petyr does. Sansa is quite capable of casting her own judgements independent of Littlefinger. 

 

Edited by violentdelights

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On 3/12/2020 at 8:28 PM, Mystical said:

Poor Sansa. No wonder she now gets a panic attack just at hearing the word marriage. Girl deserves a break already from all this marriage crap. Here is a new idea, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion annulled and her not married to anyone by the end of the story. Now that would be great.

I can't help but suspecting that some day Sansa will come to Tyrion in some sort of distress and demand/ beg/ whatever that he consummate their wedding and remain together with her as husband and wife.  I don't blame her for being tough on him as a wife, but I think that she will live to miss the one man who wasn't trying to use, manipulate or somehow spend her for his own ends.

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Posted (edited)

@violentdelights Sansa is someone who is very mentally strong and doesn't allow outside forces to change her morals and ideals. That's extremely impressive for someone her age. However at the same time Sansa can susceptible to certain things and does internalize a lot of problematic views too. For one she has a very low opinion of herself and her intelligence ( courtesy of Cersei, Joffrey and Sandor). Her standard of human decency has hit rock bottom (she thinks a guy who doesn't hit her that hard is kind. That's both disturbing and sad) and because of that she ends up romanticizing the bare minimum some villains (Sandor, Tyrion and Littlefinger) do for her. She sweeps the sexually assaults that she endures from multiple men under the rug just to stay sane. So for her to internalize some of the sexual grooming from Littlefinger is not that far fetched. After all Sansa is only a thirteen year old child. The several forms of abuse she endures is bound to have affect on her and that shouldn't be diminished even though other things didn't wear her down. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jay21 said:

I can't help but suspecting that some day Sansa will come to Tyrion in some sort of distress and demand/ beg/ whatever that he consummate their wedding and remain together with her as husband and wife.  I don't blame her for being tough on him as a wife, but I think that she will live to miss the one man who wasn't trying to use, manipulate or somehow spend her for his own ends.

You mean the man, who sexually assaulted her at 12? the man who married her against her will in an act of war to destroy her family and use her body to steal Winterfell from her family? Yeah, right he never tried to use her lol. That was basically all their relationship boiled down to, her being a prisoner not able to escape and him and his family using her. 

That will never happen: pity is the end of desire. She already knew as a little 12 year old, she will never want him, that's why she asked him about it. It won't matter anyway, because Tyrion will be to busy raping and degrading sex workers.

Edited by Nagini's Neville
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

@violentdelights Sansa is someone who is very mentally strong and doesn't allow outside forces to change her morals and ideals. That's extremely impressive for someone her age. However at the same time Sansa can susceptible to certain things and does internalize a lot of problematic views too. For one she has a very low opinion of herself and her intelligence ( courtesy of Cersei, Joffrey and Sandor). Her standard of human decency has hit rock bottom (she thinks a guy who doesn't hit her that hard is kind. That's both disturbing and sad) and because of that she ends up romanticizing the bare minimum some villains (Sandor, Tyrion and Littlefinger) do for her. She sweeps the sexually assaults that she endures from multiple men under the rug just to stay sane. Sansa is a victim of several forms of abuse and of course that will have an affect on her mind. She's only a thirteen year old child. 

First, Sandor isn't responsible for Sansa doubting her intelligence. I've already pointed this out in a previous comment on page 2. Second, let's not lump a whole slew of characters together, Sansa has a different reaction to all of them. I don't disagree with your comment regarding Tyrion and Littlefinger. I just do not believe she internalises Petyr's 'teachings' in the manner you think she does.

We also have vastly different interpretations of Sansa's relationship with Sandor and I care very little at this point to rehash the same arguments I made just two pages prior. 

Otherwise, I agree. Sansa is 13, her life experiences do affect her (I never argued otherwise) and these experiences change the way she views certain ideals she held when she was younger (esp. marriage, family and, politics) 

 

Edited by violentdelights

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1 hour ago, Jay21 said:

I can't help but suspecting that some day Sansa will come to Tyrion in some sort of distress and demand/ beg/ whatever that he consummate their wedding and remain together with her as husband and wife.  I don't blame her for being tough on him as a wife, but I think that she will live to miss the one man who wasn't trying to use, manipulate or somehow spend her for his own ends.

I guess you haven't read the books, like at all.

13 minutes ago, violentdelights said:

Otherwise, I agree. Sansa is 13, her life experiences do affect her (I never argued otherwise) and these experiences change the way she views certain ideals she held when she was younger (esp. marriage, family, and politics) 

So we can agree that she should find a regular Joe, the ultimate opposite of her younger ideals. Which excludes all the guys she gets shipped with. When the Stark children rebuild the North, Sansa will run across a guy helping rebuild a castle. They have instant connection, he's all 'girl, I like you for you', he's got no title or claim or fame or whatever, they fall in love and they lived happily ever after (probably not)...

Sadly this is only possible if Sansa is allowed to decompress and reflect on her past with men. Otherwise I fear that her tendency to dissociate and rewrite traumatic abusive events plus the grooming from LF will leave her with one messed up view on love, romance, sexuality and what a (relatively) healthy relationship is. One can only hope she remembers her parents relationship, at least the parts that count.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Mystical said:

So we can agree that she should find a regular Joe, the ultimate opposite of her younger ideals. Which excludes all the guys she gets shipped with. When the Stark children rebuild the North, Sansa will run across a guy helping rebuild a castle. They have instant connection, he's all 'girl, I like you for you', he's got no title or claim or fame or whatever, they fall in love and they lived happily ever after (probably not)...

Sure. If the aim of Sansa's romantic arc is for her to end up with someone with no land, no name, who loves her for her and not her claims, then be it. I believe Sandor can fit that criteria, you believe some regular Joe can. However, GRRM is a self-described gardener. I highly doubt that he is going to introduce this regular Joe to us at the eleventh hour especially as it relates to a character whose story heavily revolves around romance.

Quote

Sadly this is only possible if Sansa is allowed to decompress and reflect on her past with men. Otherwise I fear that her tendency to dissociate and rewrite traumatic abusive events plus the grooming from LF will leave her with one messed up view on love, romance, sexuality and what a (relatively) healthy relationship is. One can only hope she remembers her parents relationship, at least the parts that count.

Yes, Sansa does need to reflect on her trauma and she most likely will in TWOW as Littlefinger's plot slowly starts to unravel.

Edited by violentdelights

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Posted (edited)

@violentdelights Sansa interacts with Sandor Clegane seven times and in five of them he either makes an indirect remark or flat out calls her stupid. You seriously want to tell me that Sandor's comments didn't have an affect on her? I have actually counted the amount times all three of these characters called Sansa stupid and the chronical order of them is: 1. Joffrey (6 times) 2. Sandor (5 times) 3. Cersei ( 4 times). If we can both agree that Cersei and Joffrey had a profound affect on Sansa's self esteem then why can't Sandor too? How about we hold him accountable. 

You are right, it is a bit unfair to compare Sandor to the likes Tyrion & Littlefinger. A more fair comparison would be to Jaime and Theon. GRRM lumped them together too and flat out called all three of them dark villains who done some terrible things and shouldn't be considered as these dashing romantic figures. 

I didn't say Sansa is susceptible to Littlefinger's teachings (she has for too strong morals for that), just his sexual grooming. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@violentdelights Sansa interacts with Sandor Clegane seven times and in five of them he either makes an indirect remark or flat out calls her stupid. You seriously want to tell me that Sandor's comments didn't have an affect on her? I have actually counted the amount times all three of these characters called Sansa stupid and the chronical order of them is: 1. Joffrey (6 times) 2. Sandor (5 times) 3. Cersei ( 4 times). If we can both agree that Cersei and Joffrey had a profound affect on Sansa's self esteem then why can't Sandor too? How about we hold him accountable. 

Because the books says otherwise. Show me one instance of Sansa thinking less of her intelligence because Sandor called her stupid. You cannot. I already demonstrated in a comment on page 2 that Joffrey and Cersei's pointed comments on her intelligence had an effect on her self-esteem whereas Sandor's comments did not. 

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You are right, it is a bit unfair to compare Sandor to the likes Tyrion & Littlefinger. A more fair comparison would be to Jaime and Theon. GRRM lumped them together too and flat out called all three of them dark villains who done some terrible things and shouldn't be considered as these dashing romantic figures. 

Agree. Sandor, Theon, and Jaime are a fairer comparison. All three are either child-killers or attempted child-killers who made life more difficult for the Starks (Sandor to a lesser degree than the rest, I’ll argue) and are now on the path to redemption. Whether or not they stay the course is up for speculation.

Also, no one should consider Sandor “dashing.” That’s laughable, he’s the exact opposite. Sandor falls into another category of romantic figures, one that, at first glance, shouldn’t be considered romantic: the Byronic hero*. 

The Byronic hero presents an idealised, but flawed character whose attributes include: great talent; great passion; a distaste for society and social institutions; a lack of respect for rank and privilege (although possessing both); being thwarted in love by social constraint or death; rebellion; exile; an unsavory secret past; arrogance; overconfidence or lack of foresight; and, ultimately, a self-destructive manner.

*Jaime and Jon fall into this category as well. 

Also, please let’s not reduce the series to heroes and villains — purely good or purely evil — and afford GRRM's character some nuance. Especially so, when the author has warned us against this type of thinking: (1) “The concept of heroes and villains is a false dichotomy […] Real human beings are a mixture of good and evil.” and (2) “A lot of fantasy turns on good and evil – but my take on it is that it’s fought within the human heart every day, and that’s the more interesting take. I don’t think life is that simple.”

In understanding that villains are not purely evil, we can begin to understand why GRRM tries to reason with Jaime's attempt to kill Bran:

"At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don’t have any kids myself, but I’ve talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn’t just trying to kill Bran because he’s an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I’ve asked people who do have children, “Well, what would you do in Jaime’s situation?” They say, “Well, I’m not a bad guy – I wouldn’t kill.” Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he’s going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, “Yeah, I would kill someone else’s child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent.” These are the difficult decisions people make, and they’re worth examining."

We can also understand his acknowledgement that Sandor is a “grey character”

Oh, and for the Hound fans, GRRM pretty much said that he was alive, saying 'it will be very interesting to finish his story, since he is such a grey character.'

Just because GRRM has described someone as a villain, does not mean they’re purely bad and are unworthy of love. GRRM uses BatB tropes with Jaime and Sandor. They're not going to be deemed unworthy of Brienne and Sansa's love (future or current) because they're 'villains'. According to GRRM-speak that's just a complex, grey character, not someone purely evil.

Unless, you genuinely believe these characters - Theon, Sandor and Jaime - over the course of the last 5 books are just plain evil and are unable to grow from their past sins?

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I didn't say Sansa is susceptible to Littlefinger's teachings (she has for too strong morals for that), just his sexual grooming. 

I'm just not understanding this. You claim that Sansa's morals are too strong to be susceptible to Littlefinger's teachings, yet because she does not raise concern over Lothor and Mya's age gap (like she did with Beric in AGoT), she internalised Littlefinger's grooming? Could it not be that she has learned over the course of the last few books that age and looks are unimportant to a healthy union? That Lothor's good character (and treatment of Mya) is more important than how he looks or how old he is (contrary to what Littlefinger claims BTW)? Or can Sansa not grow from the views she held in AGoT?

 

Edited by violentdelights

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13 hours ago, Mystical said:

So we can agree that she should find a regular Joe, the ultimate opposite of her younger ideals. Which excludes all the guys she gets shipped with. When the Stark children rebuild the North, Sansa will run across a guy helping rebuild a castle. They have instant connection, he's all 'girl, I like you for you', he's got no title or claim or fame or whatever, they fall in love and they lived happily ever after (probably not)...

Sadly this is only possible if Sansa is allowed to decompress and reflect on her past with men. Otherwise I fear that her tendency to dissociate and rewrite traumatic abusive events plus the grooming from LF will leave her with one messed up view on love, romance, sexuality and what a (relatively) healthy relationship is. One can only hope she remembers her parents relationship, at least the parts that count.

This is what you want to happen. But what do you actually think will happen?

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

This is what you want to happen. But what do you actually think will happen?

I think nothing will happen. Because we won't ever get the end of the story.

However, considering GRRM's fave characters and that he's too in love with certain tropes, I could totally see him shackling her to one of her abusers and romanticizing the hell out of Sansa's choice. After all the ending is supposed to be partially bitter (even though the Stark children have been through enough bitter at this point).

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Posted (edited)

@violentdelights Even if Sandor's remarks about Sansa didn't have an affect on Sansa's esteem that still doesn't diminish the awfulness of his behavior in general. I haven't even addressed the very disgusting comment Sandor made about her breast size and  assaulted her during the Black Water incident 

Just because I said that Sandor is a villain doesn't mean I think he's pure evilness. That's a straw man. In a book series like ASOIAF it's foolish to look at things in black and white. All I am saying is that the few good things he did doesn't cancel out the bad things he done. Neither have I said that Sandor isn't worthy of experiencing love. I just don't think it should be Sansa, a traumatized young child who clearly needs a huge time and space to heal from her trauma and that includes the one Sandor inflicted on her. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@violentdelights Even if Sandor's remarks about Sansa didn't have an affect on Sansa's esteem that still doesn't diminish the awfulness of his behavior in general. I haven't even addressed the very disgusting comment Sandor made about her breast size and  assaulted her during the Black Water incident 

Just because I said that Sandor is a villain doesn't mean I think he's pure evilness. That's a straw man. In a book series like ASOIAF it's foolish to look at things in black and white. All I am saying is that the few good things he did doesn't cancel out the bad things he done. Neither have I said that Sandor isn't worthy of experiencing love.

I never argued otherwise. I will just copy-paste my other comment:

"it does not matter if Sandor is his "own dog" or that he "never beat" Sansa or that Sansa "sang [him] a sweet little song." (which certainly did not happen), he is perpetually condemned to not make a step further on the road to redemption if he refuses to acknowledge his role in a corrupt system. In Arya IX, we have Sandor finally acknowledging his role in making the world a horrible place: he was the "gutless fraud" and monster Arya initially took him to be; Sansa never gave him a song, he took it; he “stood there in [his] white cloak” – the very symbol of chivalry –  “… and let them beat her.” He [says] that he does not deserve to be distinguished from Gregor, from Trant and Boros and the rest, from Joffrey and the Lannisters' crimes – he is a part of them, either through his inability to act or his direct actions."

And this comment:

"In short, the internal journey Sandor undergoes from AGoT to AFFC is quite clear. We've seen this "bitter, tormented soul" attempt to impose (and fail) his own bitterness and worldview on Sansa, we've seen this man who "committed many sins" attempt to counter those sins by doing good (helping Sansa, Arya, the villagers, the dying man), we've seen this man all do plenty of "ills" (Blackwater, Mycah), we've seen this man who "never sought forgiveness" attempt to [...] distinguish[] himself from Gregor, KG, Lannisters to Arya, only to finally confess to his crimes, finally acknowledge the role he played in harming Sansa through his direct actions or inactions. In AFFC, he's in what I would describe as Westeros' first rehabilitation centre where he meets a kindred soul whose previous life "was writ in red, in blood and wine" who could help him. The Hound, as the Elder Brother declares, is dead. But, as GRRM writes, Sandor Clegane remains. Sandor is currently digging graves as penance, but he has yet to make up for those he has harmed."

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I just don't think it should be Sansa, a traumatized young child who clearly needs a huge time and space to heal from her trauma and that includes the one Sandor inflicted on her. 

And it is perfectly fine if you feel this way. 

Edited by violentdelights

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18 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You mean the man, who sexually assaulted her at 12? the man who married her against her will in an act of war to destroy her family and use her body to steal Winterfell from her family? Yeah, right he never tried to use her lol. That was basically all their relationship boiled down to, her being a prisoner not able to escape and him and his family using her. 

That will never happen: pity is the end of desire. She already knew as a little 12 year old, she will never want him, that's why she asked him about it. It won't matter anyway, because Tyrion will be to busy raping and degrading sex workers.

If only the things we knew at 12 were still true for us today. I doubt Sansa will even recognise the girl she was, let alone like the same things or see the same things as piteous or pitiful by the time she and her estranged husband are eventually reunited.  

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On 3/15/2020 at 12:20 PM, Elegant Woes said:

@Prince Rhaego's Soul Yes not everyone can be hero in this series, but Sansa is not one of them. GRRM flat out said that the Starks are the heroes of the story and he never excluded Sansa from the list. So you are wrong about Sansa not being a hero. I understand if you don't like Sansa and you aren't obligated to it, but the least you can do is accept she is an important character who will play a big role to the story. 

Hero to George can mean a grey to black character who does everything wrong and then one day does something right.  Ramsay can slay the White Walkers to save the North and the North would erect a statue in his honor.  Maybe throw winter roses at the statue's feet every time they pass.  Hell, the Starks might even sacrifice children at his altar.  It doesn't mean Ramsay should rule the North.  It just means he did them a valuable service during a time of need.  Sansa could sacrifice herself to beat the Lannisters and be considered a hero by the winning side.  It doesn't mean she's fit to be queen.  It doesn't mean she's fit to lead a noble house.  It doesn't even mean she will survive and live happily ever after.  You're hanging too much hope on a few lines that George said casually.  I for one do not believe he meant the whole clan will be heroes.  He could be referring to past Starks, like Lyanna, Cregan, Eddard.  

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On 15. März 2020 at 1:25 PM, Elegant Woes said:

Let's call this for what it is: bullying. Sandor Clegane bullies Sansa and there's no other way to describe their interactions. A 28 year old man decides to harshly attack a twelve year old girl because she reminded him too much of who he was before that incident with Gregor. I find absolutely nothing romantic about that.

Well, today we'd call it verbal abuse.

On 15. März 2020 at 1:25 PM, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa wanted to start a polite small talk and Sandor, the jerk he is, automatically goes to mock her kind offer and calls it "empty courtesies." Afterwards he decides to test her whether she can say something nice about his older brother, Gregor, and to which Sansa gives a brilliant answer to. The reason why Sandor is speechless for a moment isn't only because he was reminded of his trauma but also because he was initially impressed how Sansa managed to effortlessly turn the conversation around. That's why he responds: "Some septa trained you well. You're like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren't you? A pretty little talking bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite."

There is that weird pattern, that Sandor has with Sansa where her baits her into saying something specific so he can react to that and basically talk whatever he wants to talk about.

So I don't think this conversation is too much about her at all. Its about him. He wants her to say something nice about his brother, so he can talk about him, because he is afraid of having to face him the next day. He brings him up completely out of the blue. Sansa doesn't know anything about Gregor, she doesn't have anything to do with him, she hardly likes him, since he has just killed Ser Hugh in front of her. He is no gallant Ser Loras. But the Hound knows Sansa wouldn't abandon her courtesies. Not towards him, nor his brother. Now that she has said something positive about Gregor, Sandor can react to it and that's what he wants. But I think he does it more on a subconscious level - he is preoccupied his own issues.

Sansa triggers a lot of his psychological issues (reminds him of how he was and his world view and hopes as a child) and then he also has to face Gregor the next day- not a great combination.

He does the same thing during the night of the BOTB

" “Don’t you want to ask who’s winning the battle, little bird?” “Who?” she said, too frightened to defy him. The Hound laughed. “I only know who’s lost. Me.” (...) “What have you lost?” “All.” "

A Clash of Kings 

He baits her her into asking the right question so he can talk about, what he really wants to- himself.

 

 

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