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Nagini's Neville

Could Sansa end up marrying Edric Storm?

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Posted (edited)

@Nagini's Neville You bring up things I haven't considered before when it comes to Sandor. From that perspective it seems Sandor treat Sansa as if she's his personal psychologist. To a certain extent I can understand that Sandor meant no harm with his behavior and in a way he seems to express remorse over his behavior when he talked to Arya before his "death". I can give credit when it's due. 

@violentdelights I take back what I said in my previous post. Sansa does end up internalizing some of Sandor's talking points.

Quote

"Thank you, Your Grace," she murmured. The Hound was right, she thought, I am only a little bird, repeating the words they taught me.

So to say that Sansa isn't effected by Sandor's verbal abuse is false. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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Posted (edited)

@Elegant Woes My apologies for the delay, I was quite busy these past few weeks.

I'm too lazy to search back right now, but I thought we were talking about Sansa's self-esteem and not whether she internalises some of his 'points'. Because in the latter case, she absolutely does, and there's nothing wrong with some of the points she internalises, so long as she doesn't buy into his cynicism (which she does not). 

Your quote is missing some context. So, let's look at the first time Sandor picks up on her courtesies:

"Some septa trained you well. You're like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren't you? A pretty little talking bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite." A Game of Thrones, Sansa II

He's quite obviously mocking her (and her courtesies). However, by the end of AGoT, what does he tell her when she's afraid to face Joffrey?

"He wants you to smile and smell sweet and be his lady love," the Hound rasped. "He wants to hear you recite all your pretty little words the way the septa taught you. He wants you to love him … and fear him." A Game of Thrones, Sansa VI

Ironically, the courtesies he mocked earlier are what he acknowledges to be her greatest asset in order to survive Joffrey (and King's Landing). And you can even see Sansa 'internalizing' his advice in the same chapter:

He did not hate her, Sansa realized; neither did he love her. He felt nothing for her at all. She was only a … a thing to him. "No," she said, rising. She wanted to rage, to hurt him as he'd hurt her, to warn him that when she was queen she would have him exiled if he ever dared strike her again … but she remembered what the Hound had told her, so all she said was, "I shall do whatever His Grace commands. A Game of Thrones, Sansa VI

In all honestly, I don't see how it hurts her? We have evidence of Sansa being hurt when she learns that Cersei and Joffrey think that she's stupid. Sansa was a little bird repeating the words she was taught, and that's not a bad thing. It's in the same vein as Septa Mordane telling her that "A lady's armour is courtesy" (albeit cruder). 

 

Edited by violentdelights
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Posted (edited)

Sandor isn’t Vincent or de Villeneuve‘s Beast. The former was a poet who loved literature and the latter was a gentleman and the story is about the power of consent. I think Sandor is just a brute with minuscule redeeming qualities, in fact that’s how I think GRRM is subverting the Disney trope. To show how if you remove the charm, wit, and courtesy you just have an abusive beast. Any “romantic” tropes that are there just become a hollow shell and therefore the scenes become intentionally aromantic. 

I’d like to see Edric with Shireen but that’s probably too shippy.

 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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It amuses me that everyone is so dismissive of the chance that she will actually marry Harry the Heir, that he doesn't even get a mention.

I know half the fandom is convinced that he is Robert Baratheon born again, and destined to go to drunken ruin,  but another example of a spoilt and womanising young lordling is Edmure Tully - who turned out to be one of the more kind-hearted lords in the series.

It's plausible the match could actually go ahead and even work. Harry wouldn't be the perfect prince, but instead a flawed young man with room to grow. He's only 4 or 5 years older than Sansa and actually in proximity to her so we don't have to create a hypothetical scenario for them to meet. Politically he's a better match for her than Edric Storm, and the lords of the Vale have strong enough sympathies for the Starks that once Liilefinger is out of the way she may actually be able to grow secure and feel safe there.

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On 3/17/2020 at 11:46 AM, Elegant Woes said:

@violentdelights Even if Sandor's remarks about Sansa didn't have an affect on Sansa's esteem that still doesn't diminish the awfulness of his behavior in general. I haven't even addressed the very disgusting comment Sandor made about her breast size and  assaulted her during the Black Water incident 

Just because I said that Sandor is a villain doesn't mean I think he's pure evilness. That's a straw man. In a book series like ASOIAF it's foolish to look at things in black and white. All I am saying is that the few good things he did doesn't cancel out the bad things he done. Neither have I said that Sandor isn't worthy of experiencing love. I just don't think it should be Sansa, a traumatized young child who clearly needs a huge time and space to heal from her trauma and that includes the one Sandor inflicted on her. 

Unless you’re The Mountain. I think The Mountain is a straw character. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

It amuses me that everyone is so dismissive of the chance that she will actually marry Harry the Heir, that he doesn't even get a mention.

I know half the fandom is convinced that he is Robert Baratheon born again, and destined to go to drunken ruin,  but another example of a spoilt and womanising young lordling is Edmure Tully - who turned out to be one of the more kind-hearted lords in the series.

It's plausible the match could actually go ahead and even work. Harry wouldn't be the perfect prince, but instead a flawed young man with room to grow. He's only 4 or 5 years older than Sansa and actually in proximity to her so we don't have to create a hypothetical scenario for them to meet. Politically he's a better match for her than Edric Storm, and the lords of the Vale have strong enough sympathies for the Starks that once Liilefinger is out of the way she may actually be able to grow secure and feel safe there.

He’s already worn out his welcome with me, unless GRRM publishes while he’s still alive. Why? Because of his callous attitude towards the women he’s bedded, looking down on Sansa because she’s a bastard (despite the fact that he’s already sired a bastard or two). I could talk about the show, but that would shut down the thread.

Also, Harry and Robert are hardly the first womanizing men who go reluctantly into a match. Brandon Stark was essentially the Northern equivalent of Robert Baratheon, had bedded a noblewoman, and was already very reluctant about being betrothed to Catelyn. Plus, Robert was considerably more enthusiastic going into the match and it didn’t take long for him to wear out his welcome with Lyanna, and that’s not going into how he took going into the match with Cersei. It could backfire again.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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3 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

It amuses me that everyone is so dismissive of the chance that she will actually marry Harry the Heir, that he doesn't even get a mention.

I know half the fandom is convinced that he is Robert Baratheon born again, and destined to go to drunken ruin,  but another example of a spoilt and womanising young lordling is Edmure Tully - who turned out to be one of the more kind-hearted lords in the series.

It's plausible the match could actually go ahead and even work. Harry wouldn't be the perfect prince, but instead a flawed young man with room to grow. He's only 4 or 5 years older than Sansa and actually in proximity to her so we don't have to create a hypothetical scenario for them to meet. Politically he's a better match for her than Edric Storm, and the lords of the Vale have strong enough sympathies for the Starks that once Liilefinger is out of the way she may actually be able to grow secure and feel safe there.

Edmure didn't grow to be kind though. He's immature and shallow but he's also always been gentle hearted. Harry, on the other hand, is an arrogant jerk who tosses aside women he claims to love when they become unattractive or when he finds a new girl more interesting. There is no impetus for him to change.

I think the main reason so many take it as a given this Harry the Heir plot won't pan out is that it's just too convenient. When has an elaborate multi-step plan that's been revealed to us ever worked out exactly as planned? It's questionable whether this is even LF's real plan.

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On 22. Juni 2020 at 9:30 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sandor isn’t Vincent or de Villeneuve‘s Beast. The former was a poet who loved literature and the latter was a gentleman and the story is about the power of consent.

I'm sorry, I just can't get over ppl's defending of "the beast". Everyone knows this is supposed to be a love story, doesn't change, that the beast is and stays a beast in every version. That Vincent liked poetry doesn't change the fact, that he was also killing ppl and had his beastly urges, which were part of the reason he couldn't be with Catherine and he also had a past, where he hurt a woman he liked (granted he is probably the best of the beast characters) GRRM also wanted to show Vincent's violent side more, but that wasn't possible, because of the network.

And Villeneuve's being about the power of consent? What about holding someone against their will in exchange for their father's life, not taking NO for an answer and wearing someone down until they finally give in and say Yes to a marriage with their kidnapper says "power of consent"? This is way worse, than anything Sandor has ever done to Sansa. Just because he was "polite" doesn't make his actions any less horrible or change the fact, that she didn't truly have a choice.

Also the other beasts are fantasy creatures. The Hound is GRRM's version of what a beast would be like, if he was a human being and what would have had happened to him to make him this way.

On 22. Juni 2020 at 9:30 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think GRRM is subverting the Disney trope. To show how if you remove the charm, wit, and courtesy you just have an abusive beast.

And what was so charming about the Disney beast? Was he not constantly very verbally abusive and threatening as well and make belle very afraid of him? You forget the part where he roared at her, that she should starve, if she would not come and eat with him and that he would break done the door and how he went crazy about the rose? And with him it was much worse, because different to the Hound he has complete power over Belle. And also again the HOLDING HER AGAINST HER WILL IN EXCHANGE FOR HER FATHER'S LIFE? Blackmailing her into promising to stay with him forever? Separating her from her father forever, not caring about her feelings at all, when he drags her father away. IMO the Disney Beast is by far one of the most abusive beasts ever.

 

If you take Beauty and the Beast literately, then it will always be an icky story, with the problem showing already right in the title: it's a "love story" with a "beast". That's why I personally dislike it. 

And if GRRM really would want to make a romance out of Sansa and Sandor the "romance part" (or however to call it) obviously hasn't started yet.

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On 22. Juni 2020 at 11:31 PM, Buried Treasure said:

It amuses me that everyone is so dismissive of the chance that she will actually marry Harry the Heir, that he doesn't even get a mention.

I'm no completely dismissive of it, I guess it just wasn't my question and I'm skeptical, because of LF. He might be not be as smart as everyone thinks after all, but also not quite stupid enough to not have an exact plan, about what to do with Harry. I highly doubt he'll let him have a Happy ending with Sansa

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On 28. Mai 2020 at 7:43 PM, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville You bring up things I haven't considered before when it comes to Sandor. From that perspective it seems Sandor treat Sansa as if she's his personal psychologist. To a certain extent I can understand that Sandor meant no harm with his behavior and in a way he seems to express remorse over his behavior when he talked to Arya before his "death". I can give credit when it's due. 

It still doesn't change his behavior with her and the fact, that he isn't a good person overall, just that I don't think he had bad intentions towards Sansa and Arya both. But as someone once pointed out there are also abusive parents, who don't want to harm their children and still love them

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm sorry, I just can't get over ppl's defending of "the beast". Everyone knows this is supposed to be a love story, doesn't change, that the beast is and stays a beast in every version. That Vincent liked poetry doesn't change the fact, that he was also killing ppl and had his beastly urges, which were part of the reason he couldn't be with Catherine and he also had a past, where he hurt a woman he liked (granted he is probably the best of the beast characters) GRRM also wanted to show Vincent's violent side more, but that wasn't possible, because of the network.

And Villeneuve's being about the power of consent? What about holding someone against their will in exchange for their father's life, not taking NO for an answer and wearing someone down until they finally give in and say Yes to a marriage with their kidnapper says "power of consent"? This is way worse, than anything Sandor has ever done to Sansa. Just because he was "polite" doesn't make his actions any less horrible or change the fact, that she didn't truly have a choice.

Also the other beasts are fantasy creatures. The Hound is GRRM's version of what a beast would be like, if he was a human being and what would have had happened to him to make him this way.

On 6/22/2020 at 12:30 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think GRRM is subverting the Disney trope. To show how if you remove the charm, wit, and courtesy you just have an abusive beast.

And what was so charming about the Disney beast? Was he not constantly very verbally abusive and threatening as well and make belle very afraid of him? You forget the part where he roared at her, that she should starve, if she would not come and eat with him and that he would break done the door and how he went crazy about the rose? And with him it was much worse, because different to the Hound he has complete power over Belle. And also again the HOLDING HER AGAINST HER WILL IN EXCHANGE FOR HER FATHER'S LIFE? Blackmailing her into promising to stay with him forever? Separating her from her father forever, not caring about her feelings at all, when he drags her father away. IMO the Disney Beast is by far one of the most abusive beasts ever.

 

If you take Beauty and the Beast literately, then it will always be an icky story, with the problem showing already right in the title: it's a "love story" with a "beast". That's why I personally dislike it. 

And if GRRM really would want to make a romance out of Sansa and Sandor the "romance part" (or however to call it) obviously hasn't started yet.

The Disney version of the story perverts the original, this essay sums it up up nicely. The original tale was a lesson to men on how to behave with women - with kindness, courtesy and consent. He makes sure Beauty knows what she's getting into. It's a story with a moral. Sandor is closer to the Disney version, but way worse, without any redeeming qualities like in the original. I doubt the "romance" would ever start. GRRM has better standards for her than that. I think he is probably a bit weirded out, about why so many women thought Sandor had any romantic future with her at all. But there's also nothing wrong with fanon, if its enjoyable to people, no harm done.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The original tale was a lesson to men on how to behave with women - with kindness, courtesy and consent. He makes sure Beauty knows what she's getting into.

Ik the og tale and the story elements I mentioned are present in the og. First I don't know how you can truly know what you are getting yourself into, if you "agree" to be someone's captive. And secondly she still didn't do it on her own free will, but to save her father's life. There was absolutely nothing consensual, kind and courteous about it. And then he didn't take no for an answer, until she finally agreed to marry him. Were is the lesson in that? Take her captive, don't take no for an answer, wear her down and eventually she'll say yes and that you wanted to kill her father and held her against her will be forgiven? Not my definition of how to treat women. Certainly not kind consensual and courteous. If at all og Beauty & the Beast works best as a metaphor IMO.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sandor is closer to the Disney version, but way worse, without any redeeming qualities like in the original

And what makes Sandor worse, then the Disney version and the original? At least he didn't imprison her, held her hostage against her will through emotional blackmail by threatening her father's life. How is that redeemable ever? And how did he redeem himself? Though keep asking if she'd marry him nicely?

As horrible as the Hound is he did give Sansa a lot of tips, helped her, saved her and Arya's lives and in the end he didn't take her with him when it was clear, that wasn't what she wanted. Not that he deserves a medal for that or anything.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM has better standards for her than that.

And you know that why? Personally I'd also prefer someone like Pod or Edric, who is nice and and her age (if she'll have a love interest) But there are quite a few weird/messed up relationships in asoiaf.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think he is probably a bit weirded out, about why so many women thought Sandor had any romantic future with her at all.

I don't think he is weirded out. He thought it was a good idea to make Sansa think she kissed sandor after all. I think he has a plan with this dynamic ( not necessarily romantically though) and he didn't like, that people caught on to it and gave it so much attention. I think he expected it to fly more under ppl's radar and for them not to care. Also Sandor was not supposed to be perceived attractive, I guess.

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But there's also nothing wrong with fanon, if its enjoyable to people, no harm done.

:cheers: agreed 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Ik the og tale and the story elements I mentioned are present in the og. First I don't know how you can truly know what you are getting yourself into, if you "agree" to be someone's captive. And secondly she still didn't do it on her own free will, but to save her father's life. There was absolutely nothing consensual, kind and courteous about it.

I think you might be talking about the Beaumont version. In the Villeneuve version (original), there is no father held captive. Beauty asks for a rose on his return trip. He can only afford the rose in the Beast's garden. The Beast says he can have the rose for his daughter, but only if his daughter consents to go to the Beast's castle. He insists that Beauty know what she's getting into and only come on her own free will. No deception or coercion must be made. That's because if she's truly just a captive, the curse stays. The only way the curse is lifted is that she is doing things of her own free will. 

I agree, with you, that the Beaumont version is bad but that was never the one I was talking about.

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And what makes Sandor worse, then the Disney version and the original? At least he didn't imprison her, held her hostage against her will through emotional blackmail by threatening her father's life. How is that redeemable ever? And how did he redeem himself? Though keep asking if she'd marry him nicely?

Sandor stalks her and creeps on her, holding a knife to her throat, taunts her, makes fun of her. That's not the original Beast, at all. Again I think we're talking about two different versions of the story.

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

As horrible as the Hound is he did give Sansa a lot of tips, helped her, saved her and Arya's lives and in the end he didn't take her with him when it was clear, that wasn't what she wanted. Not that he deserves a medal for that or anything.

Yeah, he really doesn't. He was in her room with the intent to rape her. A creepy older dude, lying drunk in her bed, who later says he should have "fucked her bloody." "He could have raped her but he didn't" is the same defense people make for Tyrion.

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't think he is weirded out. He thought it was a good idea to make Sansa think she kissed sandor after all. I think he has a plan with this dynamic ( not necessarily romantically though) and he didn't like, that people caught on to it and gave it so much attention. I think he expected it to fly more under ppl's radar and for them not to care. Also Sandor was not supposed to be perceived attractive, I guess.

Yeah, I think he was a bit weirded out by the people who thought Sandor was a romantic figure. Maybe also how people shipped a girl with a much older man. And also how he's sad that there's all this focus on a brute; meanwhile no one ships Sam with anyone (based on that comment on his blog).

The truth is he isn't using any tropes in relationships. He isn't even subverting them, in some cases. It's just, what would realistically happen if these two very different people interacted. There wouldn't be romance in reality. Sansa would romanticize it but that's not any proof because Sansa does that with everyone, especially the more traumatic/dark situations.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Sansa has taken on the role of a bastard, so her attitudes may change.

Its hard to take someone named Harry the Heir, seriously:)!

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