How did Tarbeck Hall fall so quickly?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Even considering that Tywin was such a administrative and organizing genius that he could build trebuchets in a day, but how could Tarbeck hall be destroyed so quickly?

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

It doesn’t really make much sense to be honest given the medieval warfare technology that Westeros has so I kinda think we’re meant to just accept it and focus on the siege of Castamere.

[Loose Bolt]

Actually strong fortress can fall very quickly if it's senior officer happens to an idiot. For instance here it happened to city of Lappeenranta 1741. That city was sacked bc general Wrangel disobeyed standing order not to engage much stronger hostile army and wait for other units of Swedish army.

That glory hound took every men of garrison from very heavily fortified and armed with big cannons border city. Naturally without those huge cannons bc those cannons were not mobile. So his 4000 men army was wiped out by about 10 k strong army of Imperial Russia and naturally undefended city was sacked.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

Actually strong fortress can fall very quickly if it's senior officer happens to an idiot. For instance here it happened to city of Lappeenranta 1741. That city was sacked bc general Wrangel disobeyed standing order not to engage much stronger hostile army and wait for other units of Swedish army.

That glory hound took every men of garrison from very heavily fortified and armed with big cannons border city. Naturally without those huge cannons bc those cannons were not mobile. So his 4000 men army was wiped out by about 10 k strong army of Imperial Russia and naturally undefended city was sacked.

There are a few problems here though.

1. Tarbeck Hall was a castle not a city and as such much easier to defend.

2. Tywin didn't have artillery. The introduction of artillery massively reduced siege lengths as it was no longer possible to leave 100 men to defend against tens of thousands. Now even in the best defensive positions some combat was required to defend.

3. Tywin didn't storm Tarbeck Hall, he brought it down with trebuchets, which seems a bit odd, like was Tarbeck Hall so structurally weak that a few hours of trabuchet fire could bring it down?

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There are a few problems here though.

1. Tarbeck Hall was a castle not a city and as such much easier to defend.

2. Tywin didn't have artillery. The introduction of artillery massively reduced siege lengths as it was no longer possible to leave 100 men to defend against tens of thousands. Now even in the best defensive positions some combat was required to defend.

3. Tywin didn't storm Tarbeck Hall, he brought it down with trebuchets, which seems a bit odd, like was Tarbeck Hall so structurally weak that a few hours of trabuchet fire could bring it down?

Yep nailed it, think that GRRM didn’t really think too long about it and just wanted to give backstory to the rains of castamere without thinking too in-depth about the sieges. If he hadn’t have brought Tarbeck Hall down quickly then Roger Reyne would have arrived in time to halt the siege and sandwich Tywin between the Tarbeck Hall garrison and his host.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 minutes ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes said:

Yep nailed it, think that GRRM didn’t really think too long about it and just wanted to give backstory to the rains of castamere without thinking too in-depth about the sieges. If he hadn’t have brought Tarbeck Hall down quickly then Roger Reyne would have arrived in time to halt the siege and sandwich Tywin between the Tarbeck Hall garrison and his host.

I don't think that's the explanation. Like I agree that the castle falling down in a few hours is more plot convenience, but I think that even if the castle still stood Roger would haves till lost. Lord Tarbeck had sallied out with all his knights, so the castle probably couldn't launch another sally. So all in all it seems to be a pretty unnecessary plothole.

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think that's the explanation. Like I agree that the castle falling down in a few hours is more plot convenience, but I think that even if the castle still stood Roger would haves till lost. Lord Tarbeck had sallied out with all his knights, so the castle probably couldn't launch another sally. So all in all it seems to be a pretty unnecessary plothole.

Yeah potentially but ultimately I still think it was plot convience from GRRM. The Castamere siege made sense but the Tarbeck Hall siege definately didn’t

[The Mountain that Cries]

Depending on how big your trebuchets are and how many you are using you could totally take down a Fort or Hall.  I mean you can drop a corn silo with watermelons fired from trebuchets. I have seen that with my own eyes. The point of most seige's is to starve em out and preserve the city or whatever, but if your only goal was to rain death and destroy a building especially if that building is built with mid-evil building tech you totally could. Its not like all Fort's ad Castles in this world are made by Bran.  Tywin bringing down Tarbeck Hall with Siege engine's is way more believable than Ned pulling down the Tower of Joy with a horse or horse's.    

[Dofs]

Didn't some Tarbeck men open the gates of Tarbeck Hall for Tywin's forces?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Didn't some Tarbeck men open the gates of Tarbeck Hall for Tywin's forces?

No. After lord Tarbeck sallied out with just his household knights and was promptly defeated, Lady Tarbeck sent ravens to the Reynes, expecting them to relieve the siege, as she thought it will drag out. Tywin build trebuchets in just a day and had the keep down in a matter of hours killing all the Tarbecks including Lady Tarbeck. He then put the castle to the torch.

[John Suburbs]

On 3/14/2020 at 7:42 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Even considering that Tywin was such a administrative and organizing genius that he could build trebuchets in a day, but how could Tarbeck hall be destroyed so quickly?

Tarbeck Hall was an old castle, probably in disrepair. So the Tarbecks used Lannister gold to strengthen its towers and rebuild the curtain wall, but in the keep itself, most of the money went to decorations.

So with some 6,000 men at his command, I would think Tywin could build a few trebs within a day. One rock brought down the aged keep, and that was that.

[Dofs]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

No. After lord Tarbeck sallied out with just his household knights and was promptly defeated, Lady Tarbeck sent ravens to the Reynes, expecting them to relieve the siege, as she thought it will drag out. Tywin build trebuchets in just a day and had the keep down in a matter of hours killing all the Tarbecks including Lady Tarbeck. He then put the castle to the torch.

I've checked and the Tarbeck men did indeed open the gates for the Lannisters:

At their approach, Lady Ellyn Tarbeck closed her gates and sent forth ravens to Castamere, summoning her brothers. Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but siege engines were readied within a day, and those walls proved little help when one great stone flew over them and brought down the castle's aged keep. Lady Ellyn and her son Tion the Red died in the keep's sudden collapse. All resistance at Tarbeck Hall ended soon after, and the gates were thrown open to the Lannister host.

The expanded version on Martin's website also has this:

Her defiance was misplaced.  Tarbeck Hall was an old castle, and most of its defenders had ridden into battle with Lord Walderan, and were dead or fled.  Those who remained were daunted by the size of the Lannister host, and dismayed to see the heads of their own lord and his sons impaled beneath their banners. (It may be also that some of those within had been suborned by Lannister gold, for Twyin Lannister was not a man to leave the outcome of any battle to chance, as subsequent decades would prove).

Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but Ser Tywin sent his men-at-arms surging forward with ladders and grappling hooks and battering rams instead.  The fighting lasted less than an hour, accounts agree.  As the ram smashed through the castle’s main gates, two other gates were opened from within, and the Lannisters came swarming through.

The way Ellyn died in the extended unedited version on Martin's website contradicts the description of her deaths in the main novels because Martin forgot about it, hence it was changed for the WoIaF to be more inline with the main series but other than that we can definitely trust the extended version the way we trust SSM. And both WoIaF and the extended version show that the gates of the Tarbeck Hall were opened from within and there is also a clear indication that Tarbeck men overall just didn't want to fight Tywin and hence probably didn't defend the castle as much as they could.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

40 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I've checked and the Tarbeck men did indeed open the gates for the Lannisters:

At their approach, Lady Ellyn Tarbeck closed her gates and sent forth ravens to Castamere, summoning her brothers. Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but siege engines were readied within a day, and those walls proved little help when one great stone flew over them and brought down the castle's aged keep. Lady Ellyn and her son Tion the Red died in the keep's sudden collapse. All resistance at Tarbeck Hall ended soon after, and the gates were thrown open to the Lannister host.

The expanded version on Martin's website also has this:

Her defiance was misplaced.  Tarbeck Hall was an old castle, and most of its defenders had ridden into battle with Lord Walderan, and were dead or fled.  Those who remained were daunted by the size of the Lannister host, and dismayed to see the heads of their own lord and his sons impaled beneath their banners. (It may be also that some of those within had been suborned by Lannister gold, for Twyin Lannister was not a man to leave the outcome of any battle to chance, as subsequent decades would prove).

Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but Ser Tywin sent his men-at-arms surging forward with ladders and grappling hooks and battering rams instead.  The fighting lasted less than an hour, accounts agree.  As the ram smashed through the castle’s main gates, two other gates were opened from within, and the Lannisters came swarming through.

The way Ellyn died in the extended unedited version on Martin's website contradicts the description of her deaths in the main novels because Martin forgot about it, hence it was changed for the WoIaF to be more inline with the main series but other than that we can definitely trust the extended version the way we trust SSM. And both WoIaF and the extended version show that the gates of the Tarbeck Hall were opened from within and there is also a clear indication that Tarbeck men overall just didn't want to fight Tywin and hence probably didn't defend the castle as much as they could.

Though there is a massive difference in the versions. In one it's just the survivors opening the gates after the keep was destroyed and there was no hope, in the other the Lannisters win by just betrayal. Hard to say which version is canon. I'd say the one from the book.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but Ser Tywin sent his men-at-arms surging forward with ladders and grappling hooks and battering rams instead.  The fighting lasted less than an hour, accounts agree.  As the ram smashed through the castle’s main gates, two other gates were opened from within, and the Lannisters came swarming through.

 

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Though there is a massive difference in the versions. In one it's just the survivors opening the gates after the keep was destroyed and there was no hope, in the other the Lannisters win by just betrayal. Hard to say which version is canon. I'd say the one from the book.

No betrayal.
Lannister men surged forward with ladders, grappling hooks and battering rams.
As the ram broke through the main gate, two other gates were opened from within and the Lannisters swarmed through.

"were opened from within" does not indicate by Tarbeck men. The first job of all those men going over the walls with ladders and grappling hooks is to take a gate and open it for the rest of their army.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

12 hours ago, corbon said:

14 hours ago, Dofs said:

Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but Ser Tywin sent his men-at-arms surging forward with ladders and grappling hooks and battering rams instead.  The fighting lasted less than an hour, accounts agree.  As the ram smashed through the castle’s main gates, two other gates were opened from within, and the Lannisters came swarming through.

 

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Though there is a massive difference in the versions. In one it's just the survivors opening the gates after the keep was destroyed and there was no hope, in the other the Lannisters win by just betrayal. Hard to say which version is canon. I'd say the one from the book.

No betrayal.
Lannister men surged forward with ladders, grappling hooks and battering rams.
As the ram broke through the main gate, two other gates were opened from within and the Lannisters swarmed through.

"were opened from within" does not indicate by Tarbeck men. The first job of all those men going over the walls with ladders and grappling hooks is to take a gate and open it for the rest of their army.

Fair point, but there's still a massive difference between the versions.

[Dofs]

On 3/16/2020 at 8:56 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Though there is a massive difference in the versions. In one it's just the survivors opening the gates after the keep was destroyed and there was no hope, in the other the Lannisters win by just betrayal. Hard to say which version is canon. I'd say the one from the book.

I think that the fact that Tarbeck men had little motivation to fight is perfectly applicable to both versions.

On 3/16/2020 at 11:06 PM, corbon said:

No betrayal.
Lannister men surged forward with ladders, grappling hooks and battering rams.
As the ram broke through the main gate, two other gates were opened from within and the Lannisters swarmed through.

"were opened from within" does not indicate by Tarbeck men. The first job of all those men going over the walls with ladders and grappling hooks is to take a gate and open it for the rest of their army.

You can read it that way but then the previous sentence would make little sense:

Those who remained were daunted by the size of the Lannister host, and dismayed to see the heads of their own lord and his sons impaled beneath their banners. (It may be also that some of those within had been suborned by Lannister gold, for Twyin Lannister was not a man to leave the outcome of any battle to chance, as subsequent decades would prove).

It's, imo, is pretty clearly implied that it were Tarbeck men who opened the gates. Otherwise, why would it say that some Tarbeck men might have been paid by Tywin? 

[corbon]

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

I think that the fact that Tarbeck men had little motivation to fight is perfectly applicable to both versions.

Agreed.

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

You can read it that way but then the previous sentence would make little sense:

Those who remained were daunted by the size of the Lannister host, and dismayed to see the heads of their own lord and his sons impaled beneath their banners. (It may be also that some of those within had been suborned by Lannister gold, for Twyin Lannister was not a man to leave the outcome of any battle to chance, as subsequent decades would prove).

It's, imo, is pretty clearly implied that it were Tarbeck men who opened the gates. Otherwise, why would it say that some Tarbeck men might have been paid by Tywin? 

No that sentence (paragraph) still makes sense. It states the low morale of the Tarbeck men, yes. It speculates that it might be that some were bought. Thats all about lauding Tywin Lannister and reminding everyone how smart/thorough he is. 
The audience, remember, is Tywin's grandkids.

There is a significant difference between speculation and implication. It does not imply that Tarbeck men opened the gates.

The simple fact is that men who attack with ladders and grappling hooks have as their first task, securing a gate. Period.
And we are explicitly told that as well as the ram, men attacked with ladders and grappling hooks. Then, after an hour or so of fighting, some gates were opened. 
If Tarbeck men opened the gates the losses involved  in going over the walls with ladders and grappling hooks, while assaulting the main entrance with a ram, would have been unnecessary.

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

No that sentence (paragraph) still makes sense. It states the low morale of the Tarbeck men, yes. It speculates that it might be that some were bought. Thats all about lauding Tywin Lannister and reminding everyone how smart/thorough he is. 
The audience, remember, is Tywin's grandkids.

There is a significant difference between speculation and implication. It does not imply that Tarbeck men opened the gates.

The simple fact is that men who attack with ladders and grappling hooks have as their first task, securing a gate. Period.
And we are explicitly told that as well as the ram, men attacked with ladders and grappling hooks. Then, after an hour or so of fighting, some gates were opened. 

If Tarbeck men opened the gates the losses involved  in going over the walls with ladders and grappling hooks, while assaulting the main entrance with a ram, would have been unnecessary.

This is, first of all, a story of Tywin's assault. It makes little sense to randomly write about the lack of motivation to fight or to add speculation that some Tarbeck men were bought in the middle of the assault description for no narrative reason. The author is obviously speculating as to why Tarbeck Hall fell so easily and he is implying that something happened there that can either be attributed to the unwillingness to fight Tywin or to the fact that some Tarbeck men were bought. 

And this something would naturally be written in the next paragraph where it's described how the castle actually fell and the only thing that can point to it is the fact that the two gates were opened from within. The text says that the Lannisters entered the castle only when the gates were smashed/opened, so no significant force got inside prior to it, and that would be an incredible incompetence of the Tarbecks if few Lannister men simply managed to sneakily scale the walls and open the gates from inside in the middle of the attack. What's much more likely is that as soon as the main gates were smashed, some Tarbeck men, either not motivated to die, or if they were bough, as is being speculated in the previous paragraph, opened other gates so that the fighting would be over.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

The text says that the Lannisters entered the castle only when the gates were smashed/opened,

Thats a lie.

On 3/17/2020 at 9:56 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but Ser Tywin sent his men-at-arms surging forward with ladders and grappling hooks and battering rams instead.  The fighting lasted less than an hour, accounts agree.  As the ram smashed through the castle’s main gates, two other gates were opened from within, and the Lannisters came swarming through.

The text says that Tywin sent men at arms forward with grappling hooks, ladders and battering rams.
The fighting was less than an hour.
As the main gates were smashed by the ram, two other gates were opened from within. The Lannisters swarmed through.
Nothing says that no Lannisters had entered the castle before the gate was smashed. In fact it explicitly mentions that the men-at-arms Tywin sent forward carried tools specifically for entering the castle without using the gates!

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

so no significant force got inside prior to it,

You've just made that up. The text does not say so.
Anyway, its irrelevant. We aren't talking a 'significant force'. We are talking the Lannister men who assaulted the walls with grappling hooks and ladders, probably fought their way over the walls - or perhaps the defenders couldn't cover the full length of the walls, who knows or cares - and some of which may have managed to take and hold a couple of gatehouses long enough to open the gates. They didn't do any more than that, become a 'significant force' inside the walls, because their first priority is to get the gates open for their fellow soldiers, and at that point the battle is over, at least in terms of the narrative.

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

and that would be an incredible incompetence of the Tarbecks if few Lannister men simply managed to sneakily scale the walls and open the gates from inside in the middle of the attack.

Riiight. 
So the men at arms with grappling hooks and ladders were just carrying them to impede themselves as they waiting patiently for the ram to break the gates? I guess you are ascribing incredible incompetence to Tywin instead? 

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

What's much more likely is that as soon as the main gates were smashed, some Tarbeck men, either not motivated to die, or if they were bough, as is being speculated in the previous paragraph, opened other gates so that the fighting would be over.

Except it wasn't over. The result was now a foregone conclusion, but there was more fighting still.

Quote

As the ram smashed through the castle’s main gates, two other gates were opened from within, and the Lannisters came swarming through.  Those who fled were spared; those who fought were put to the sword.  Ellyn Tarbeck herself was taken with her children, and thrown from the window of the castle’s tallest tower, to strangle kicking at the end of a noose.  Her son Tion the Red preceded her in death, cut down in the fighting at the main gates.  He was nineteen years of age when he died, the same age as Tywin Lannister.  

Those who fought were put to the sword.
And Tion the Red was cut down (ie died in h-t-h fighting) in the fighting at the main gates. But the gates have only just been opened and you're claiming the fighting is over.

 

Its a pretty straightforward battle description. An overwhelming force attacks dispirited defenders, swarms them over the walls and opens the gates and the defenders get cut down, only those who fled being spared.
There is nothing at all out of the ordinary in this description.