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Corvo the Crow

Help Me Connect These Houses?

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Posted (edited)

Sorry for the title, as it could've been better.


I can't spend much time in the forums nowadays, nor do I have the time to do extensive research and thinking on the subject, so I would like to recruit(or levy if you will!) some interested people on connecting these 4 houses to each other; Stark, Royce, Crane, Dayne.


Had some initial work on it posted to the forums as seperate threads or even part of some other thread, I may add those in a day or two but in summary they are as such;



Brandon of the Bloody Blade slays COTF near Blue Lake turning it red. Rose is of the RED LAKE, not BLUE LAKE. Brandon of the Bloody Blade also drives giants from the Reach and Brandon the Builder uses (forced?) giant labor to build the Wall.

House Crane Coat of Arms is five gold cranes on a field of PALE BLUE. Roses, especially winter roses are associated with Starks and what color are these? You guessed it, PALE BLUE!



Jon and Waymar resembling each other (at least in physique)

Royce is a matronymic surname derived from Rose. Blue roses, anyone? or perhaps a Rose as in a person's name?

Some parallels; Both Eddard and Bronze Yohn send a son to NW. Brandon wants to become a KG, Robar actually becomes one.



A weak one, Rose of the Red Lake and Royce name perhaps?



Can only come up with the Dawn.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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Dayne was in Aerys’ KG, Royce and Crane in Renly’s, and Bran wanted to be a KG knight. 

All are First Men houses

Since Brandon killed cotf at BLUE lake turning it into RED and rose is of RED lake not BLUE lake, surely she must have been born after Brandon did that.

House Stark and the cotf and the first men are represented by blue. The lake turned red with the death of the cotf and also our stark ancestor Brandon drove the giants north. Red could mean a lot of things. Lannister crimson could link to the andals, which would fit with blue being first men. An interesting thing about this is that a Lannister king was killed by an Osgrey at Red Lake, and both houses have a lion as  their emblem. However, the emblem of House Crane is still blue, not red.

Both Brandon and Rose are allegedly children of Garth Greenhand. 

Also, if Brandon is an ancestor House Stark, is his Bloody Blade now Ice?


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Posted (edited)

Sorry for my post being so convoluted :blush:

1. Eddard's great great grandmother was Lorra Royce. So Ned is probably something like 4th cousin to Yohn Royce.

2. If Eddard's great grandmother, Melantha Blackwood, was sister of Queen Betha Blackwood, then on Blackwood side Rhaegar Targaryen and Eddard Stark were 3rd cousins.

3. Rhaegar was 4th cousin to Arthur and Ashara Dayne.

4. Rhaegar is Eddard's 3rd cousin on Blackwood side, and Arthur's 4th cousin on Dayne side, so Dayne and Stark family trees are interconnected thru Rhaegar.

5. Robert Baratheon is also Eddard's 3rd cousin, because his grandmother, Rhaelle Targaryen, was 1st cousin of Edwyle Stark, Eddard's grandfather (that's only if Betha and Melantha were sisters).

6. According to AWOIAF-wikia Brandon of the Bloody Blade was half-brother of the Rose of Red Lake, so Bran the Builder (founder of House Stark) was Rose's nephew. What other connection do you need?

Maybe Targaryens are partially Starks, that's if one of four daughters of Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood, Mariah Stark, married back into Blackwood family, and Melissa Blackwood was one of Mariah's children. Melissa had three children with King Aegon - Bloodraven, Mya and Gwenys. Could be that Mya, same as her grandmother Mariah married back into Blackwood family, so House Blackwood continued from her, and thru her they inherited Stark genes and also Crane genes, and genes of those two Houses were later passed to Targaryens thru Betha Blackwood. So Targaryens are possibly partially Cranes.

(What made me think that Mariah Stark married back into Blackwood family is that GRRM is often using this trick with names, like:

Bellegere Otherys - Bellenora - Bellonara - Bellegere;

a lot of names in Stark family tree are variations of Lya, Bran and Ben: Lyanna, Lyanne, Lyarra, Alysanne; Brandon, Barthogan, Branda; Benjen, Berena, Beron, Bennard;

Chataya - Alayaya (mother and daughter);

Jalabhar Xho - Xhobar Qhoqua (exiled Princes from Summer Islands, possibly descendant and ancestor);

Samarro Saan - Salladhor Saan;

thus it's a possibility:

Mariah Stark - Melissa Blackwood - Mya Rivers - Melantha Blackwood.

If my guess is correct, then GRRM gave to readers even more hints in Stark family tree. For example, besides Mariah Stark, who possibly married back to Blackwoods, that later integrated back into Stark family tree, Mariah's three sisters possibly also integrated back into Stark tree.

There was Sarra. And one generation later there was Lorra Royce who married with Beron Stark. Could be that Sarra married with a member of House Royce, and Lorra Royce was her daughter and half-Stark.

There was Alys Stark. And Cregan's youngest son and fifth child with his third wife Lynara Stark, Brandon Stark, married with Alys Karstark. It's likely that Alys was significally older than her youngest half-brother, and that by the time Brandon was born, Alys had already married with a member of House Karstark, and that Brandon's future wife, Alys Karstark was Alys Stark's daugher and Brandon's half-niece.

Alysanne Blackwood - Alys Stark - Alys Karstark.

That sort of thing, uncles marrying with their nieces, had already happened in Stark family tree, and it happened approximately at the same time as Brandon's possible marriage with Alys. Brandon's older brother, Jonnel Stark, married with Sansa Stark, who was daughter of Jonnel's older half-brother, Rickon Stark, who was son of Cregan and his first wife, Arra Norrey. And Rickon's other daughter, Serena Stark, also married with a guy who was her half-uncle, she married with Jonnel's and Brandon's brother Edric.

It's very unlikely that this sort of thing is just a coincidence, it's definitely a HINT. Two of Brandon's brothers married with their half-nieces, and Brandon's wife Alys Karstark had the same name as his half-sister Alys Stark, so it's highly likely that Brandon, same as his two older brothers, also married with his half-niece, and thus Alys Karstark was Alys Stark's daughter.

And the last of Cregan's daughters with Alysanne Blackwood was named Raya. Three generations later into Stark family tree was integrated Arya Flint (wife of Rodrik Stark, mother of Lyarra Stark, Eddard's grand-mother.) Arya is a twist of name Raya. Seems that Raya married with a Flint, and later her great granddaughter Arya Flint married back into Stark family.

So it seems highly likely that all four of Cregan Stark's daughters with Alysanne Blackwood eventually integrated their genes back into Stark family tree. And because one of them, Mariah, most likely married with a Blackwood, and later House Targaryen integrated with House Blackwood, thus thru that integration Targaryens became carriers of not only Blackwood blood, but also Stark blood, and if Starks are really bloodrelated to Cranes (thru Bran and Rose), then Targaryens are also bloodrelated to Cranes.)



(Even if Melantha and Betha weren't sisters, they still were from the same generation, because going backwards -

Ned - Rhaegar

Rickard - Aerys

Edwyle - Jaehaerys

Melantha - Egg&Betha.

So either Melantha and Betha were sisters, in which case Ned and Rhaegar were 3rd cousins; or maybe M&B were 1st cousins then Ned and Rhaegar were 4th cousins; and if M&B were 2nd cousins, then Ned and Rhaegar were 5th cousins.

Eitherway Ned and Rhaegar were bloodrelated (by Blackwood genes), and because Rhaegar was partially Dayne (approximately 1/4 Dayne thru his great great grandmother Dyanna; Egg was 1/2 Dayne, Jaehaerys and Shaera were 1/4 Daynes, starting from them the same amount of the same genes was passed down from generation to generation, because Egg's children married each other, same with his grandchildren, thus Rhaegar was 1/4 Dayne same as Aerys, Rhaella, Jaehaerys and Shaera, because their gene-pool wasn't changing), this connects Ned to Dayne family tree, though not by blood.)




I think that daughter of Alysanne Blackwood and Cregan Stark, Sarra Stark, had married with a member of House Royce, and that Lorra Royce, wife of Beron Stark, was Sarra's daughter. Though, besides Lorra Sarra and her Royce husband had other children, and from one of those children continued House Royce.


If I'm not mistaken Rhaegar Targaryen was Arthur's and Ashara Dayne's fourth cousin, thru Dayne parent of Dyanna Dayne.

Lord Dayne + spouse = Dyanna, other children, next Lord Dayne

next Lord Dayne (Dyanna's brother) was Egg's first cousin.

next-next Lord Dayne (Dyanna's nephew) was Jaehaerys' second cousin.

next-next-next Lord Dayne, father of Arthur and Ashara, was King Aerys' third cousin.

And next-next-next-next Daynes, Arthur and Ashara, who are great great grandchildren of Dyanna Dayne's father, are Rhaegar's fourth cousins.

There's a possibility that Egg's wife, Betha Blackwood, was sister of Melantha Blackwood, who married with Willam Stark and was Eddard Stark's great grandmother.

Betha's and Egg's children were second cousins of that generation of Daynes. And if Melantha was Betha's sister, then their children were first cousins. Melantha's children were Jocelyn (married with a Royce) and Edwyle (Eddard's grandfather).

Jocelyn and Edwyle Starks possibly were first cousins to Jaehaerys II Targaryen, his wife Shaera, Duncan the Small, Daeron and Rhaelle (Robert Baratheon's grandmother).


Something like this:

{{....}} - Daynes

[[...]] - Blackwoods

((...)) - Starks

"..." - Targaryens


{{Lord Dayne - Dyanna's father}}

{{siblings}}: "Maekar" + {{Dyanna}} | {{Dy's brother}}

[[siblings]] {{first cousins}}: [[Betha]] + {{ "Aegon" }}| [[Melantha]] + ((Willam)) |  {{Dy's nephew}}

[[1st cousins]] {{2nd cousins}}: {{ [[ "Jaehaerys" ]] }} | (( [[ Jocelyn, Edwyle ]] )) | {{Dy's great-nephew}}

[[2nd cousins]] {{3rd cousins}}: {{ [[ "Aerys" ]] }} | (( [[ Rickard ]] )) | {{Arthur's father}}

[[3rd cousins]] {{4th cousins}}: {{ [[ "Rhaegar" ]] }} | (( [[ Eddard ]] )) | {{Arthur}}    

Rhaegar is a carrier of Targaryen, Blackwood and Dayne genes. Eddard is a carrier of Stark and Blackwood genes.                

Edited by Megorova

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52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If since then in their family trees passed same number of generations, then Yohn Royce and Eddard Stark are second cousins <- that's even without my speculations about Sarra Stark as Lorra Royce's mother.

Benedict was neither the head of his house nor a member of the Royces of Runestone.

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