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Son of Man

Fate of House Stark (partial reply to Brandon Ice-Eyes)

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Posted (edited)

This is partly a reply to @Brandon Ice Eyes  I will discuss ideas beyond his topic and started this thread to keep his on subject. Out of respect for your topic, Brandon-san.

He presented us with the following:

I don't think the whole family will go extinct.  At least one of the females or a male will have children before they die.  My suspicion is on Sansa.  She could die in childbirth but the family will survive as long as the baby survives.  Arya is not mother material. I can't see her getting her mind out of the gutter long enough to have her own child.  She will die by the sword and rather early in life.  Jon, if he's not already dead, might father a child with Val or another wildling.  I'm aware of his oaths but that has never prevented him from doing what he wanted.  He's an oath breaker and will die for it.  Rickon and Bran are the sibling who are most likely to survive. 

Bad things happen to the Starks whenever they behave selfishly.  Sansa covered for Joffrey and her wolf died.  She wants to be his queen so badly, bad enough to support the lie.  Sansa will continue this pattern of selfish decisions and die.  But she might live just long enough to have a child with the heir. Catelyn started a war and later released their hostage.  She lost her beloved son.  And she continues to be punished for those acts of selfishness.  Jon put the Night's Watch in danger to get his sister away from Ramsay.  He also failed to judge Janos and Mance fairly.  He was again putting his sister before his duties and even planned to attack the Boltons.  He got assassinated.  Bran is not a perfect young man but he is the Stark to redeem the family.  He can do this by accepting his role and giving up thoughts of being normal. 

I can understand where Jon and Arya gets second lives as direwolves.  That would make good endings for them.  They can't be together as humans but they can become mates as wolves.  Sansa doesn't have a direwolf but I suppose she can find some other furry creature to inhabit after her death.  Rickon is the savage and therefore has what it takes to survive.  He might reign as the king of the north while the Ice Age is in effect.

Edited by Son of Man

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None of the major houses will die out.  One at least will survive from each.  It's going to be Bran for the Starks.  They will be greatly reduced in number though.  I am also thinking the meaning of Jojen Reed's prediction: the wolves will come again.  It's literal.  The Starks will die and become a pack of Direwolves.  A love triangle was supposed to happen between Jon, Arya, and a Stark enemy.  This plot has evidently changed to Jon, fake Arya, and Ramsay.  Jon was always meant to break his vows and betray the Night's Watch.  It's a weird triangle but Jon clearly has deep feelings for his sister.  Feelings beyond brotherly love.  George just upped the tragedy because Jon doesn't know that he betrayed the watch for an impostor.  Bowen and the other men executed Jon to prevent him from further damaging the watch.  The real Arya is too young and the remaining time does not allow for her to have children.  She will die while attempting to cross those people off her kill list.  It's a fitting end to her arc.  

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38 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

A love triangle was supposed to happen between Jon, Arya, and a Stark enemy. 

I don't recall this portion of the original outline, do you have a quote for that? 

38 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

It's a weird triangle but Jon clearly has deep feelings for his sister.  Feelings beyond brotherly love. 

What brings you to this conclusion? Specifically, what in the text do you read as "clearly" indicating Jon has feelings beyond brotherly love for Arya? 

39 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

This plot has evidently changed to Jon, fake Arya, and Ramsay. 

I'm confused. Do you think Jon, fArya, & Ramsay are going to be caught in some love triangle? As in Jon will be in love with Jeyne, Jeyne in love with Jon & Ramsay, & Ramsay in love with Jeyne as well? 

40 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

George just upped the tragedy because Jon doesn't know that he betrayed the watch for an impostor. 

Except we have very clear, concise words in regards to why Jon announced his decision to march on WF & his fsister isn't mentioned. So this claim is blatantly false. 

41 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

Bowen and the other men executed Jon to prevent him from further damaging the watch.

It seems Bowen certainly believes so. I'm of the opinion that murdering the LC of the NW is detrimental to the watch & that Bowen will suffer great consequences because of it, but to each their own. 

42 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

The real Arya is too young and the remaining time does not allow for her to have children.  She will die while attempting to cross those people off her kill list.  It's a fitting end to her arc.  

Any evidence for that? First & foremost that she is too young & the remaining time does not allow for her to have children - what evidence do you have to back that claim? 

Secondly that she will die at all? You do know, that in that original outline you are speaking of, Arya survives the series correct? Not so say it can't change but it is there. 

Thirdly, that she will die in an attempt to cross people off of her kill list? 

& Lastly, that her dying in this manner would be a fitting end to her arc? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't recall this portion of the original outline, do you have a quote for that?

it was Jon, Ayra and Tyrion lol

I really wish ppl would stop using this outline as indication for anything. It is so different and was written so long ago and only, because GRRM had to. The characters were completely different.

Arya and Jon were the same age and tortured by their forbidden love for each other and Tyrion was their age as well, I think, and also undyingly in love with Arya. He burned down WF out of revenge and jealousy.

Arya and Jon clearly don't have romantic feelings for one another in asoiaf.

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10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

At least one of the females or a male will have children before they die.

What evidence leads you to this conclusion? I ask because I've never seen any. I have been wrong before though. 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

My suspicion is on Sansa.

I do appreciate you stating this is your suspicion & not that it is fact or even based in fact but is this more of a gut feeling? Or is there something in the text that leads you to this suspicion? 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

She could die in childbirth but the family will survive as long as the baby survives.

She could die any number of ways. Why would she be more likely to die in childbirth considering she isn't even with anyone let alone pregnant? 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Arya is not mother material. I can't see her getting her mind out of the gutter long enough to have her own child. 

I would argue it has naught to do with her mind being in the "gutter" and more to do with the fact that a recurring theme around Arya is repeatedly stated & that is "she is no lady" 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

She will die by the sword and rather early in life. 

What evidence leads you to this conclusion? Firstly, that she will die at all & Secondly that it will be "rather early in life"? 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Jon, if he's not already dead, might father a child with Val or another wildling. 

Why would that be? Again, I appreciate you stating he "might" rather than presenting it as fact, & indeed he might. He might decide Satin is the love of his life & never father any children but there is as much evidence for that as there is for him fathering a child on Val or any other wildling. 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

I'm aware of his oaths but that has never prevented him from doing what he wanted. 

This is false. His oaths have prevented him doing what he wanted, on several occasions. 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

He's an oath breaker and will die for it.

Which oaths has he broken? I disagree he will die for it, but it's anyone's guess really.

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Rickon and Bran are the sibling who are most likely to survive.

What makes them more likely to survive? 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Bad things happen to the Starks whenever they behave selfishly.

False, we haven't seen much of the Starks behaving selfishly but I'll concede that may be your interpretation of their actions. 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Sansa covered for Joffrey and her wolf died.  She wants to be his queen so badly, bad enough to support the lie.  Sansa will continue this pattern of selfish decisions and die.  But she might live just long enough to have a child with the heir. 

So many falsehoods here, I don't even know where to start. Sansa didn't cover for Joff, she refused to speak out against her betrothed OR her sister & while I do wish she would have called Joff out for the liar he is, we should all be able to understand why she didn't & it had nothing to do with being selfish or wanting to be Queen so bad. 

Sansa has not continued any pattern - you have read the books right? Sansa has a pretty fast arc of learning & adapting to her surroundings & thus changing her behavior & thought on a level not otherwise seen in the books. To pretend Sansa just keeps on doing the same things & thinking the same way she did at the beginning of the books is disingenuous. 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Catelyn started a war and later released their hostage.  She lost her beloved son.

Did she? I must've missed the part where Catelyn called the banners & went to war... Very independent & unprecedented for a woman in a feudal society to have the agency to start a war! 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Jon put the Night's Watch in danger to get his sister away from Ramsay.

This is absolutely false. Jon attempted to protect the NW from the danger of Ramsay attacking because Ramsay threatened him & his fellow brothers. Show me a quote where Jon thinks, says, or implies that he made his announcement to march on WF in an effort to get his sister away from Ramsay. I'll wait. 

In fact, fArya was already away from Ramsay. Jon knows this because the PL states it. It would be pretty stupid of GRRM to write that Jon wanted to march on WF to get his sister away from Ramsay, while making it clear that fArya isn't with Ramsay and that Jon knows that, right? 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

He also failed to judge Janos and Mance fairly.  He was again putting his sister before his duties and even planned to attack the Boltons. 

Wrong again. Maybe you should re-read those chapters & come back. 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

He got assassinated. murdered in cold blood by cowards. 

FTFY.

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Bran is not a perfect young man but he is the Stark to redeem the family.  He can do this by accepting his role and giving up thoughts of being normal. 

LOL!! What??? Ok, again, where is the evidence that 

1. The Starks need redeemed

2. Bran is the person to do this

3. Redemption can be achieved by accepting his role & "giving up thoughts of being normal." --- That whole sentence is absurd btw. 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

I can understand where Jon and Arya gets second lives as direwolves.  That would make good endings for them.  They can't be together as humans but they can become mates as wolves.

Where is the evidence Jon & Arya want to be together at all, let alone as direwolves? Unless of course, you are saying 'together' as in close proximity of each other, live close, have each other in each others lives like siblings - then I'll agree they would want that (as would most siblings) 

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Sansa doesn't have a direwolf but I suppose she can find some other furry creature to inhabit after her death.

Evidence? 

Well, I hate to say it but this post is riddled with inconsistencies & false claims. There is nothing to back up your claims. You haven't sited any text or quotes (I would imagine because you would be hard pressed to find anything that backs this nonsense) but that would offer some credibility to what you are saying, if you could find any. 

 

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

it was Jon, Ayra and Tyrion lol

I really wish ppl would stop using this outline as indication for anything. It is so different and was written so long ago and only, because GRRM had to. The characters were completely different.

Arya and Jon were the same age and tortured by their forbidden love for each other and Tyrion was their age as well, I think, and also undyingly in love with Arya. He burned down WF out of revenge and jealousy.

Arya and Jon clearly don't have romantic feelings for one another in asoiaf.

Agreed. This nonsense is just too much & I do try to ignore it, but I'm not very good at it LOL 

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10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

This is partly a reply to @Brandon Ice Eyes  I will discuss ideas beyond his topic and started this thread to keep his on subject. Out of respect for your topic, Brandon-san.

He presented us with the following:

I don't think the whole family will go extinct.  At least one of the females or a male will have children before they die.  My suspicion is on Sansa.  She could die in childbirth but the family will survive as long as the baby survives.  Arya is not mother material. I can't see her getting her mind out of the gutter long enough to have her own child.  She will die by the sword and rather early in life.  Jon, if he's not already dead, might father a child with Val or another wildling.  I'm aware of his oaths but that has never prevented him from doing what he wanted.  He's an oath breaker and will die for it.  Rickon and Bran are the sibling who are most likely to survive. 

Bad things happen to the Starks whenever they behave selfishly.  Sansa covered for Joffrey and her wolf died.  She wants to be his queen so badly, bad enough to support the lie.  Sansa will continue this pattern of selfish decisions and die.  But she might live just long enough to have a child with the heir. Catelyn started a war and later released their hostage.  She lost her beloved son.  And she continues to be punished for those acts of selfishness.  Jon put the Night's Watch in danger to get his sister away from Ramsay.  He also failed to judge Janos and Mance fairly.  He was again putting his sister before his duties and even planned to attack the Boltons.  He got assassinated.  Bran is not a perfect young man but he is the Stark to redeem the family.  He can do this by accepting his role and giving up thoughts of being normal. 

I can understand where Jon and Arya gets second lives as direwolves.  That would make good endings for them.  They can't be together as humans but they can become mates as wolves.  Sansa doesn't have a direwolf but I suppose she can find some other furry creature to inhabit after her death.  Rickon is the savage and therefore has what it takes to survive.  He might reign as the king of the north while the Ice Age is in effect.

Who exactly do you like in asoiaf?

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35 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't recall this portion of the original outline, do you have a quote for that? 

Are you guys talking about the outline Martin said he was making shit up b/c his publishers or whoever wanted an outline? ;)

 

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13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed. This nonsense is just too much & I do try to ignore it, but I'm not very good at it LOL 

OMG, Arya and Jon will be so happy, when they can finally be mates as wolves- something that they always wanted since Arya was 1 1/2 and Jon was 6. Ever since Arya crawled fiercer, than every other toddler, Jon was totally into her. Why else would they think about each other all the time? They are totally in love. That's why Jon didn't want to sleep with Ygritte and Arya didn't have sex with Gendry yet. Now that their selfish and traitorous parents are dead, they actually totally could be together, but sadly their Starkness gets in the way and they must die for their sins. They had it coming! But everyone constantly bashes Cersei and Jaime. It's clearly Jon and Arya, who are the most disgusting with their constant gross thoughts about each other. shh double standards are real

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

OMG, Arya and Jon will be so happy, when they can finally be mates as wolves- something that they always wanted since Arya was 1 1/2 and Jon was 6. Ever since Arya crawled fiercer, than every other toddler, Jon was totally into her. Why else would they think about each other all the time? They are totally in love. That's why Jon didn't want to sleep with Ygritte and Arya didn't have sex with Gendry yet. Now that their selfish and traitorous parents are dead, they actually totally could be together, but sadly their Starkness gets in the way and they must die for their sins. They had it coming! But everyone constantly bashes Cersei and Jaime. It's clearly Jon and Arya, who are the most disgusting with their constant gross thoughts about each other. shh double standards are real

:lmao:Haha! Yep! I mean who could resist a fierce crawler anyway? Jon is only human after all. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

:lmao:Haha! Yep! I mean who could resist a fierce crawler anyway? Jon is only human after all. 

don't know what you are talking about. Obviously there was something wrong with the boy. And don't be so rude and laugh at all the evidence I've provided. 

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43 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

don't know what you are talking about. Obviously there was something wrong with the boy. And don't be so rude and laugh at all the evidence I've provided. 

LOL!!! Sorry !! 

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I have said or written this before.  Those damn Starks get second lives because of their ability to inhabit the animals.  Skinchanging.  It is very unlikely for them to completely perish.  Jon should die for betraying his Order but he gets a second chance as Ghost.  Arya should die too but there is the problem of Nymeria.  She can get a second chance in Nymeria.  

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20 hours ago, Son of Man said:

This is partly a reply to @Brandon Ice Eyes  I will discuss ideas beyond his topic and started this thread to keep his on subject. Out of respect for your topic, Brandon-san.

He presented us with the following:

I don't think the whole family will go extinct.  At least one of the females or a male will have children before they die.  My suspicion is on Sansa.  She could die in childbirth but the family will survive as long as the baby survives.  Arya is not mother material. I can't see her getting her mind out of the gutter long enough to have her own child.  She will die by the sword and rather early in life.  Jon, if he's not already dead, might father a child with Val or another wildling.  I'm aware of his oaths but that has never prevented him from doing what he wanted.  He's an oath breaker and will die for it.  Rickon and Bran are the sibling who are most likely to survive. 

Bad things happen to the Starks whenever they behave selfishly.  Sansa covered for Joffrey and her wolf died.  She wants to be his queen so badly, bad enough to support the lie.  Sansa will continue this pattern of selfish decisions and die.  But she might live just long enough to have a child with the heir. Catelyn started a war and later released their hostage.  She lost her beloved son.  And she continues to be punished for those acts of selfishness.  Jon put the Night's Watch in danger to get his sister away from Ramsay.  He also failed to judge Janos and Mance fairly.  He was again putting his sister before his duties and even planned to attack the Boltons.  He got assassinated.  Bran is not a perfect young man but he is the Stark to redeem the family.  He can do this by accepting his role and giving up thoughts of being normal. 

I can understand where Jon and Arya gets second lives as direwolves.  That would make good endings for them.  They can't be together as humans but they can become mates as wolves.  Sansa doesn't have a direwolf but I suppose she can find some other furry creature to inhabit after her death.  Rickon is the savage and therefore has what it takes to survive.  He might reign as the king of the north while the Ice Age is in effect.

I think you are very confused.

Like, how can you say "bad things happen to the Starks whenever they behave selfishly" yet you make no mention of Ned or Robb who made mistakes that were not only more selfish and more stupid than mistakes made by their family but had infinitely more serious consequences.

LOL I just can't take you seriously after that....

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13 hours ago, Bullrout said:

None of the major houses will die out.  One at least will survive from each.  It's going to be Bran for the Starks.  They will be greatly reduced in number though.  I am also thinking the meaning of Jojen Reed's prediction: the wolves will come again.  It's literal.  The Starks will die and become a pack of Direwolves.  A love triangle was supposed to happen between Jon, Arya, and a Stark enemy.  This plot has evidently changed to Jon, fake Arya, and Ramsay.  Jon was always meant to break his vows and betray the Night's Watch.  It's a weird triangle but Jon clearly has deep feelings for his sister.  Feelings beyond brotherly love.  George just upped the tragedy because Jon doesn't know that he betrayed the watch for an impostor.  Bowen and the other men executed Jon to prevent him from further damaging the watch.  The real Arya is too young and the remaining time does not allow for her to have children.  She will die while attempting to cross those people off her kill list.  It's a fitting end to her arc.  

George Martin carefully introduced us to the rules of skinchanging.  He also gave us examples of direwolves dining on decaying wights.  That should give us clues as to how the Starks will survive the long night.  There will be no working farms; therefore, no crops to harvest.  There will be no game to hunt.  The Children even tell us, the Direwolves will last longer than man.  The Starks will die but continue living as a pack of Direwolves dining on the wights.  There won't be any going back to human but they will at the least survive.  

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There seems to be descendants of lords of Winterfell who ruled over 100 years ago in both White Harbor and Barrowtown. Under normal conditions they would not have even a chance to claim WF. But if main branch of House Stark dies and northern houses got decimated and Ryswells and Manderlys still has most of their military forces intact then either one of those or in worst case both of them could find and support their own "puppet" as new lord of WF. After all Manderlys are just now doing that by sending Davos to look Rickon. 

Besides there is always bonus option that some warlord in Essos suddenly finds his Stark "roots" and decides to bring his own war machine to support his claim to WF.

Or I assume that Stark name is too valuable and useful brand that it would just disappear without someone trying to "usurp" it. In fact I assume that Starks living nowadays are descendants of victorious "bloodline" thieves who somehow successfully replaced previous "bloodline" of House Stark.

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25 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Or I assume that Stark name is too valuable and useful brand that it would just disappear without someone trying to "usurp" it. In fact I assume that Starks living nowadays are descendants of victorious "bloodline" thieves who somehow successfully replaced previous "bloodline" of House Stark.

They kinda already are.

The current line of Starks are descendants of a bastard born of a wildling and the daughter of Winterfell...

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

The Children even tell us, the Direwolves will last longer than man.

This is completely inaccurate. Must say I’m not surprised... 

“Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.”

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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