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New information on the historical Starks


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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One imagines Jorah really was an Andal when Drogo first called him that, and the title would also have been the natural way to refer to Ser Rodrik.

One of the biggest problem I have when we reread AGOT today is all these inconsistencies and stuffs GRRM had not (or not fully) developed in his mind when he wrote it initially. Given that ASOIAF is a complex and large ongoing series started decades ago, it makes sense stuff like that would appear. I can't hold him at fault for it, but in retrospect it clearly affect the reread. Though in this case, the Jorah the Andal thing still holds up pretty well today due to the Dothraki ignorance of Westeros in general.

 

As for the possibility of Ser Harrold being a master-at-arms at Winterfell, why not.

I have this headcanon that House Cassel is a cadet branch of House Stark due to their sigil featuring 10 wolves heads and the use of the reverse Stark color. Lonnel Snow (or a son of his) would be my pick for the founder of the House as he was the bastard son of the tenth child of Lord Cregan Stark. Thus creating House Cassel out of House Stark in a similar way to House Longwaters coming from House Velaryon. Obviously its only a headcanon and I don't really have textual evidence for backing this up, but if I follow up on this idea I can easily imagine the Cassels being the hereditary men of confidence (you know Cassel/Castellan... maybe there is something in there) for the Starks during the last century or so.

Given the examples of the Tyrells staying the Stewards of the Gardeners at Highgarden for centuries, and the fact that descendant of Lord Brandon the Boisterous by a younger son were still living at Winterfell a century or so later, it is totally plausible for the Cassels to have remained at Winterfell in between Lonnel Snow and Rodrik Cassel.

Moreover, even though we don't know where Rodrik was born (the AWOIAF app only states "the north"), it's a safe bet to assume he was born in Winterfell as his father was a retainer for the Stark and was buried at Winterfell. So we can eliminate the possibility of Rodrik receiving his knighthood due to being originally from Manderly lands.

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8 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

One of the biggest problem I have when we reread AGOT today is all these inconsistencies and stuffs GRRM had not (or not fully) developed in his mind when he wrote it initially. Given that ASOIAF is a complex and large ongoing series started decades ago, it makes sense stuff like that would appear. I can't hold him at fault for it, but in retrospect it clearly affect the reread. Though in this case, the Jorah the Andal thing still holds up pretty well today due to the Dothraki ignorance of Westeros in general.

Well, it seems he must have reworked a lot of stuff if one considers Stannis and Renly didn't even exist back when he wrote the original outline - and back then he had already a bunch of chapters.

That said, though, there are a number of glaring issues in the early chapters of AGoT, namely the stuff about Ned 'riding to war' after his wedding (which is basically nonsense, never mind how people dance around to explain this), Ned and Robert still seeming to be wards of Jon's during the Year of the False Spring (and coming down from the Eyrie to go to tourney at Harrenhal) and them not being just for a visit in the Vale when the Rebellion started, Cat's claim that all the godswoods south of the Neck were destroyed and there not being a weirwood heart tree in the godswood of Winterfell (which is contradicted by the last Cat chapter of AGoT).

Those are instance where careful editing really could do away with serious issues.

It is interesting, though, that George really seems to have changed his mind on the First Men/old gods thing. Originally it was no weirwood godswoods south of the Neck. Then the Blackwoods became followers of the old gods south of the Neck. Then we got weirwood godswoods in pretty much every ancient castle south of the Neck, TWoIaF gave us the most impressive godswood of all at Highgarden of all places with the Three Singers, and then, finally, FaB established that there are numerous houses who still follow the old south of the Neck and not just the Blackwoods (although we still have no clue who they are and @Ran actually had difficulties providing George with possible candidates among the known houses).

One imagines that this is more than just a tendency to change something. It is more likely to have significance to the overall plot of the series.

Something with less significance would be the change Ran helped to push through - originally the thousands of years were supposed to be accurate (most notably the Alyssa Arryn story taking 6,000 years ago), but the idea to causally link Andal invasion and Valyrian expansion isn't something George came up originally. The earliest SSMs on that issue had Valyria being founded only after the Andal invasion.

8 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I have this headcanon that House Cassel is a cadet branch of House Stark due to their sigil featuring 10 wolves heads and the use of the reverse Stark color. Lonnel Snow (or a son of his) would be my pick for the founder of the House as he was the bastard son of the tenth child of Lord Cregan Stark. Thus creating House Cassel out of House Stark in a similar way to House Longwaters coming from House Velaryon. Obviously its only a headcanon and I don't really have textual evidence for backing this up, but if I follow up on this idea I can easily imagine the Cassels being the hereditary men of confidence (you know Cassel/Castellan... maybe there is something in there) for the Starks during the last century or so.

That is not a bad idea. But one could imagine this thing better, perhaps, with the first Cassel being a guy who married the daughter of a Stark bastard rather than being directly founded by them. Then they would likely choose a more 'Starkish' name (like Longwaters just attached the 'Long'-part). But such a thing could still explain why they would include allusions to House Stark in their banner.

One should not overplay this, however. I think many people also thought/still think the Whents are an offshoot of the Lothstons due to the bats in both sigils but all we know so far is that they were retainers of House Lothston.

8 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Given the examples of the Tyrells staying the Stewards of the Gardeners at Highgarden for centuries, and the fact that descendant of Lord Brandon the Boisterous by a younger son were still living at Winterfell a century or so later, it is totally plausible for the Cassels to have remained at Winterfell in between Lonnel Snow and Rodrik Cassel.

Well, Lynara Stark married Cregan Stark. That doesn't mean she lived at Winterfell before their marriage. It is possible, of course, but not confirmed or necessary for such a marriage to take place. And I'm still having trouble imagining Ellard and/or Benjen are descended from Edric and Alaric.

In fact, a very interesting question in the whole Stark history would be where the hell the Starks all lived. I imagine very different branches of House Lannister to live at the Rock - which is monstrously huge - but while Winterfell is no small castle it should get crowded pretty quickly if second and third cousins and their in-laws start to live there. One could see all of Cregan's descendants having a place at Winterfell during his tenure ... but were Lynara (if she survived Cregan) and her sons so kind to Rickon's and Aly's descendants? We don't know.

Not to mention that AGoT established Bran would eventually hold a keep in Robb's name, indicating the Starks have some lesser seats for their younger sons.

The stewardship of Highgarden was a hereditary office, something apparently unique for the Kingdom of the Reach in the late era of the Gardener reign. This seems to be unknown in other kingdoms/lordships. To our knowledge no other royal office in any of the kingdoms was hereditary (although the Master of Ships post got pretty close).

I certainly would agree that we have reason to believe the Cassels were in service to the Starks for many generations.

8 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Moreover, even though we don't know where Rodrik was born (the AWOIAF app only states "the north"), it's a safe bet to assume he was born in Winterfell as his father was a retainer for the Stark and was buried at Winterfell. So we can eliminate the possibility of Rodrik receiving his knighthood due to being originally from Manderly lands.

Sure, but who knows what the man did during his life? Perhaps he squired with some Manderly knight in service at Winterfell? Or he went to White Harbor for squiring in his youth? Perhaps he married a woman from the Manderly lands and her father knighted him?

There is even the possibility that the masters-at-arms at Winterfell were knights since Lorra Royce. She may have brought people with her from the Vale, and there may have been knights among them. If there is a part of Andal culture that took root at Winterfell before Catelyn Tully then it would have been the chivalry thing. Bran isn't keen to be Kingsguard just because his mother is a Tully, just as Robb and Jon do not try to emulate the Young Dragon because he was a great conqueror.

One can do the knightly thing without all that Seven stuff attached to it as the less pious knights all show.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One should not overplay this, however. I think many people also thought/still think the Whents are an offshoot of the Lothstons due to the bats in both sigils but all we know so far is that they were retainers of House Lothston.

How common red hair is in Westeros? To me the fact that Mad Danelle had red hair and Catelyn and some of children had also red hairs might indicate that Minisa Tully and Danelle L might have been relatives.

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7 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

How common red hair is in Westeros? To me the fact that Mad Danelle had red hair and Catelyn and some of children had also red hairs might indicate that Minisa Tully and Danelle L might have been relatives.

House Tully is not the only red hair House in Westeros. Conningtons, Pipers, Dondarrions, Tolands, Redwynes, Merryweathers, ...

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7 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

How common red hair is in Westeros? To me the fact that Mad Danelle had red hair and Catelyn and some of children had also red hairs might indicate that Minisa Tully and Danelle L might have been relatives.

I'm reasonably confident that the Tullys have 1-2 Lothston girls in their family tree, just as they might have been people from all the Harrenhal houses in their ancestry. After all, Harrenhal is the biggest lordship in the Riverlands and the Tullys as the lord paramounts of the Trident need good ties with the Lords of Harrenhal, no matter who they are ... but especially if they are in good (or better) standing with the Iron Throne.

And one can speculate that Prentys Tully (who has a very Valyrian sounding name) is descended from Quenton Qoherys in some fashion, possibly by means of a daughter Quenton had with the daughter of Edmyn's he married, who then, in turn, married Edmyn's heir.

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8 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

How common red hair is in Westeros? To me the fact that Mad Danelle had red hair and Catelyn and some of children had also red hairs might indicate that Minisa Tully and Danelle L might have been relatives.

Kermit and Oscar had the red Tully hair, and that was even before the Lothstons were raised to nobility (or at least got Harrenhal).

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And one can speculate that Prentys Tully (who has a very Valyrian sounding name) is descended from Quenton Qoherys in some fashion, possibly by means of a daughter Quenton had with the daughter of Edmyn's he married, who then, in turn, married Edmyn's heir.

You really think so ? House Tully is an ancient House but they were never kings and never the most powerful lords of the riverlands either. They kinda came to power by luck of being the first ones to rally behind Aegon. It would be smart for them to make marriage alliance with the Lords of Harrenhal in order to somewhat check their power.

We know very little about the historical Tullys, and those we know the most about are named after muppets, thanks George... We know the ruling Lord Tully in 37 AC urged King Aenys to burn Harrenhal with Quicksilver to put an end to Harren the Red, and in 43 AC fought for King Maegor in the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye. This/Those Tully(s) was/were Targaryen loyalist and more the warrior-type, which contrast with the pious Prentys at the start of Jaehaerys' reign. It would have been cool to learn more about Prentys's predecessor(s). Alas.

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1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

You really think so ? House Tully is an ancient House but they were never kings and never the most powerful lords of the riverlands either. They kinda came to power by luck of being the first ones to rally behind Aegon. It would be smart for them to make marriage alliance with the Lords of Harrenhal in order to somewhat check their power.

Yeah, and Aegon had Quenton marry one of Edmyn's daughter, so we can expect some later marriage taking place in the other direction, too.

And to be sure, a Qoherys mother of Prentys Tully doesn't have to be herself the daughter of the daughter of Edmyn who married Lord Quenton - Quenton had two sons and a grandson in Gargon when he was made Lord of Harrenhal, meaning that he could also have had some granddaughters or daughters that weren't mentioned.

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

We know very little about the historical Tullys, and those we know the most about are named after muppets, thanks George... We know the ruling Lord Tully in 37 AC urged King Aenys to burn Harrenhal with Quicksilver to put an end to Harren the Red, and in 43 AC fought for King Maegor in the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye. This/Those Tully(s) was/were Targaryen loyalist and more the warrior-type, which contrast with the pious Prentys at the start of Jaehaerys' reign. It would have been cool to learn more about Prentys's predecessor(s). Alas.

To be sure, we have no idea whether Prentys is the Lord Tully hosting King Aenys or the Lord Tully helping to put down Aegon the Uncrowned. It could all be him - that is part of the problematic tendency of FaB to sometimes mention given names and sometimes omitting them.

Prentys himself isn't particularly pious ... his darling wife is, and he may only have married her in the later years of Maegor's reign. We don't know how old either of them is.

The gut feeling is that Prentys must be a grandson of Edmyn but even that is not clear. During the Conquest Edmyn seemed to have had only daughters, and his wife died in 9 AC, so perhaps Edmyn's heir was the son of his second wife - who could have been a Qoherys of Harrenhal.

In general, though, the fact that Cat's mother was a Whent of Harrenhal hammers home the fact that we should assume the Tullys did their best to keep close ties to their most powerful bannermen - the Tullys would have wed Qoherys, Harroways (or perhaps not them), Towers, Strongs, and Lothstons during the years. If one had to guess who Lyonel Strong's daughters ended up with one could imagine that one of them married Elmo Tully - or his father.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

To be sure, we have no idea whether Prentys is the Lord Tully hosting King Aenys or the Lord Tully helping to put down Aegon the Uncrowned. It could all be him - that is part of the problematic tendency of FaB to sometimes mention given names and sometimes omitting them.

I wasn't sold on the idea of Prentys being a descendant of Quenton Qoherys at first but now that you mentioned it, it would actually make sense. I thought Prentys was described as pious but you are right only his wife and sister-in-law are described that way. Now I can totally see him as a grandson of Edmyn and Quenton. If he was the first cousin of Gargon, it would make sense for him (if he was indeed the ruling lord in 37 AC) to urge Aenys to burn Harren and avenge Gargon's death.

If we go with this idea, the marriage of Prentys and Lucinda Broome had to take place in the late reign of King Maegor in my opinion. Because in this scenario Prentys would the Lord Tully who fought for Maegor after Maegor burned the seat of several pious Houses, including House Broome.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

In general, though, the fact that Cat's mother was a Whent of Harrenhal hammers home the fact that we should assume the Tullys did their best to keep close ties to their most powerful bannermen - the Tullys would have wed Qoherys, Harroways (or perhaps not them), Towers, Strongs, and Lothstons during the years.

Both House Harroway and Strong had one of their lords as the Hand of the King, the Tullys would be stupid to not try to arrange a marriage with these Houses.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If one had to guess who Lyonel Strong's daughters ended up with one could imagine that one of them married Elmo Tully - or his father. 

That and/or Lyonel Strong could have been half Tully himself.

When Ser Bywin Strong was given Harrenhal, thus creating House Strong of Harrenhal, the castle had been held by Rhaena Targaryen for the past twelve years (in reality she controlled the castle for more than that given that Maegor Towers was a sickly guy who died at the age of 17). The death of Rhaena and the creation of a new house changed to political situation in the riverlands. I'm guessing the Tullys wanted for one of their own to marry Bywin, and thus ensuring the loyalties of this new powerful House. And if we look at the timeline, it is very likely that Bywin was Lyonel's father.

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6 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I wasn't sold on the idea of Prentys being a descendant of Quenton Qoherys at first but now that you mentioned it, it would actually make sense. I thought Prentys was described as pious but you are right only his wife and sister-in-law are described that way. Now I can totally see him as a grandson of Edmyn and Quenton. If he was the first cousin of Gargon, it would make sense for him (if he was indeed the ruling lord in 37 AC) to urge Aenys to burn Harren and avenge Gargon's death.

We can, of course, also consider the possibility that it was a different Lord Tully in 37 and 43 AC. If it were Prentys' father it could also make sense that he would want to avenge Gargon assuming he was married to a Qoherys or he himself had been the son of a Qoherys (if we assume Edmyn himself married one of them and she gave him his heir.

That way Prentys could already have been married to Lucinda but her voice would not yet been heard at Riverrun - that would have only happened after her father-in-law died and her husband became lord.

6 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

If we go with this idea, the marriage of Prentys and Lucinda Broome had to take place in the late reign of King Maegor in my opinion. Because in this scenario Prentys would the Lord Tully who fought for Maegor after Maegor burned the seat of several pious Houses, including House Broome.

Prentys marrying Lucinda (the daughter of a house in disgrace) would one strike as odd if it took place after 43 AC. Whoever sided with Maegor against Aegon was pretty thoroughly in Maegor's camp, and such a guy would not marry the daughter of a traitor. One could see him eventually changing his mind, listening to the wife he already had, but not that he would marry such a woman after all that.

But it would be more likely that he wasn't the guy who helped to defeat Aegon in the first place. But, of course, still possible.

6 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Both House Harroway and Strong had one of their lords as the Hand of the King, the Tullys would be stupid to not try to arrange a marriage with these Houses.

Yes, but unlike Aemond (who only put down all the Strongs he could find at Harrenhal) Maegor wouldn't have spared some Harroway-Tullys or the wife of Lord Tully who was a born Harroway if he really eradicated all the Harroways he could find. He would have targeted Riverrun and other major castles, too. Thus it stands to reason that Lord Lucas didn't have the time to broker prestigious matches in the Riverlands or elsewhere after his marriage of Alys - or that all such in-laws were all with Lucas at court or in Harrenhal or Lord Harroway's Town and not elsewhere.

That kind of thing would indicate that no Harroway daughters married important lords/heirs.

But then, perhaps Maegor also spared some crucial female line Harroways ... although I don't think that's very likely.

6 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

That and/or Lyonel Strong could have been half Tully himself.

Yeah, that would make sense, too. Especially since the Strongs are even mentioned as a prestigious and important house even before their rise to Harrenhal. Harren the Black mentions them, Ser Osmund serves as Hand, Lucamore joins the KG, etc.

6 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

When Ser Bywin Strong was given Harrenhal, thus creating House Strong of Harrenhal, the castle had been held by Rhaena Targaryen for the past twelve years (in reality she controlled the castle for more than that given that Maegor Towers was a sickly guy who died at the age of 17). The death of Rhaena and the creation of a new house changed to political situation in the riverlands. I'm guessing the Tullys wanted for one of their own to marry Bywin, and thus ensuring the loyalties of this new powerful House. And if we look at the timeline, it is very likely that Bywin was Lyonel's father.

Overall any list of the houses ruling Harrenhal should include the Targaryens between Towers and Strong because of Rhaena and (tentatively) the Targaryens between Strong and Lothston because of Alys Rivers and her son.

That Queen Rhaena was the (true) Lady of Harrenhal before and after Maegor Towers died is pretty obvious.

Bywin seems to be Lyonel's father, yes, which means Lucamore must have another brother in Simon - and he himself was likely Bywin's younger brother since he ended up joining the KG which the head/heir of the house would have likely not done. So Bywin would have been older than Lucamore in 73 AC.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm still really curious what happend to grandchildren of Artos Stark. We do know that both of his son had children, but we don't know whether they are still aive or not. Oldest of them would be around 88 most at the beginig of the series, that is if we take earliest possible dates of birth for Artos, his twins and their children. I think it's more reasonable that we take a bit later dates, since it's unusual for male nobles to have issue at age of 12 even in that world. If we assume then, that Artos had his children around age of 20, still considering the earliest possible date of his birth, his twins would be born around  206 A.C., then assuming the same for them, their children would be around 60 or younger in 298 A.C., yet we never hear about them. I think the best explanation would be that they all died young and childless, but I'm still hoping, that their descendant would pop out at some point in the series, couse otherwise why even bother to include them in the tree?

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  • 5 months later...

@Lord Barner I had a discussion (quite recently) about Artos's descendants. My opponent argumented that despite that info, his grandchildren could have just died out. Also, he said, that they can be irrelevent because they can be quite poor (the North is not a Westerlands or Reach). Moreover, documents about them may have burned down during Game of Thrones (IIRC catspaw burned down the library or the tower with some documents). Also, if some of them are alive during ADWD, Wyman Manderly should have been aware of them* (he could use them as a backup if Rickon dies). Additionally, he said that even if they exist during ADWD, they are still behind Jocelyn's descendants - Starks do not use  laws and customs of the Targaryen succesion.

All of these arguments are quite convincing. However, informations about Artos's kids in TWOIAF are there for something. I think that if some grandchildren are still alive, they can be a some kind of moral support for the Ned's children (if they ever meet in WoW or DoS). I mean that the wolf pack is still alive. And that Ned's kids are not alone in Westeros.

I believe thare is some purpose of this and maybe we will know more in future books :)

*But, one of his ancestors was surprised how many people were in his city when Alysanne was there with her dragon...

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15 hours ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

@Lord Barner I had a discussion (quite recently) about Artos's descendants. My opponent argumented that despite that info, his grandchildren could have just died out. Also, he said, that they can be irrelevent because they can be quite poor (the North is not a Westerlands or Reach). Moreover, documents about them may have burned down during Game of Thrones (IIRC catspaw burned down the library or the tower with some documents). Also, if some of them are alive during ADWD, Wyman Manderly should have been aware of them* (he could use them as a backup if Rickon dies). Additionally, he said that even if they exist during ADWD, they are still behind Jocelyn's descendants - Starks do not use  laws and customs of the Targaryen succesion.

All of these arguments are quite convincing. However, informations about Artos's kids in TWOIAF are there for something. I think that if some grandchildren are still alive, they can be a some kind of moral support for the Ned's children (if they ever meet in WoW or DoS). I mean that the wolf pack is still alive. And that Ned's kids are not alone in Westeros.

I believe thare is some purpose of this and maybe we will know more in future books :)

*But, one of his ancestors was surprised how many people were in his city when Alysanne was there with her dragon...

Considering any such children - male or female - would have very strong claims to Winterfell it strikes me as very unlikely that any such grandchildren or great-grandchildren are around.

Daughters might be better matches for Ramsay than fake Arya, especially if they still have the Stark name (which all granddaughters of Artos Stark would have), while all daughters married to lordly/nobly Northmen could lay claim to Winterfell and the North in their own right. Any family with a (blood) kinship to those people would consider themselves as rivals to Roose and Ramsay right now. Manderly would search them out and not bother with suicide missions to Skagos.

Any grandsons would be pretenders to Winterfell right now, and while Robb was still around they would have been presumptive heirs to Winterfell, sort of like Harry the Heir is heir to the Vale. Back when Robb's succession was considered the descendants of Artos would have been mentioned, too, as more viable candidates than obscure relations in the Vale (even if the latter were more closely related). There is no chance that such people would be forgotten.

The best guess is that the sons never had any offspring, either because they died young or took the black.

If the Starks were involved in the troubles during the reign of Aegon V then Artos's sons may have died fighting for the king in this or that capacity - or against him, if the Starks were among Egg's enemies (although that's not that likely, considering the help Aegon V extended to the North during the six-year-winter, and considering the ties Egg is likely going to establish with key Starks during his visit at Winterfell and them being in-laws after both Egg and the Lord of Winterfell take Blackwood brides).

The only way for any of Artos's sons still being alive or them having Stark offspring would be if they disappeared into obscurity. Say, one of them married a Skagosi and went there never to return. Or they migrated to the Free Cities or the Summer Isles or some other place abroad. If one of them lived in Myr or Tyrosh or Lys or Lorath we wouldn't know at this point. But if they had turned wildling we should know by now. Mance and his people would know if a Stark were living amongst them.

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So, why GRRM included this informations in his book? Only to create a discussions between the readers about another Starks? Because I will be disappointed if this whole Artos thing would end with Aerea-type story.

By the way, I was wondering about lord Edric; because he was Alaric's grandson  - and Edric became a ruler of the North after Alaric death in 72 AC. And (if Edric was born after the Good Queen advice about marriages, which took place in 58 AC) that means he was under 16 (in 72 AC). Is that means that there was a regency? Is that outcome possible? And why Alaric sons weren't named in FaB? 

And one more thing - did anyone thought about a possibility of changing a family tree of House Stark significantly? I mean that GRRM could, for example, delete Artos sons? Or change the birth orders of other Starks?

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3 hours ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

And (if Edric was born after the Good Queen advice about marriages, which took place in 58 AC) that means he was under 16 (in 72 AC). Is that means that there was a regency? Is that outcome possible?

I guess that's what happened. Alaric's children seem to have been unwed (and not widowed either) in 58 AC.

4 hours ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

And why Alaric sons weren't named in FaB? 

A lot of people are not identified by their given name in F&B, up to the point that it is impossible to tell if the lord who did this is the same one who did that.

4 hours ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

And one more thing - did anyone thought about a possibility of changing a family tree of House Stark significantly? I mean that GRRM could, for example, delete Artos sons? Or change the birth orders of other Starks?

Sure, and I think if he comes up with a better story than he had on his mind so far, he will do that. On the other hand he might already have figured out what was going on in the late second and early third century, so there would be no reason to change anything.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/4/2020 at 6:47 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:
On 10/4/2020 at 2:40 PM, Aeryn Targaryen said:

And (if Edric was born after the Good Queen advice about marriages, which took place in 58 AC) that means he was under 16 (in 72 AC). Is that means that there was a regency? Is that outcome possible?

I guess that's what happened. Alaric's children seem to have been unwed (and not widowed either) in 58 AC.

If this scenario was possible, I wonder, who was his regent? It couldn't be his uncle, because he was dead in 72 AC; and lord Alaric was very cautious guy. So it could have been some trusted advisor (or advisors) or maybe some distant relatives (there were some Starks, who would end up as ancestors of Lynara). Also, it seems, that there were more regencies in Winterfell than I thought.

And I wonder, what could have been the cause of death of Alaric's sons.I bet that the cause was plague. It is quite quick and convenient :) 

PS. I am not sure if it has been mentioned before, but if lord Brandon the Boastful died in 49 AC as an old man, is that means he was born way before the Conquest? Because it seems that he (theoretically) should have been in his 60s (or 70s) than 50s, during the royal wedding. 

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24 minutes ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

If this scenario was possible, I wonder, who was his regent? It couldn't be his uncle, because he was dead in 72 AC; and lord Alaric was very cautious guy. So it could have been some trusted advisor (or advisors) or maybe some distant relatives (there were some Starks, who would end up as ancestors of Lynara).

These ancestors of Lynara might be a good guess. His mother could be another possibility.

28 minutes ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

And I wonder, what could have been the cause of death of Alaric's sons.I bet that the cause was plague. It is quite quick and convenient

The Shivers might have happened too early, but the Starks seem to have an increased mortality rate anyway.

30 minutes ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

I am not sure if it has been mentioned before, but if lord Brandon the Boastful died in 49 AC as an old man, is that means he was born way before the Conquest? Because it seems that he (theoretically) should have been in his 60s (or 70s) than 50s, during the royal wedding. 

I think the text does not state he was old, just ailing. And a man of 45 or 50 can be ailing, too.

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