What would you do if you were king Viserys I to avoid the Dance?

[The Merling King]

It’s 107 AC and queen Allicent Hightower has just given you a legitimate male heir, what would you do if you were king Viserys I? I would name Aegon II as my heir and promise the Valeryons that any daughter born of Rhaenyra and Laenor would marry the first born son of Prince Aegon and Helaina.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

Definitely name Aegon II as my heir. It would go along with the decision of the Great Council of 101 AC that elected me as King over my cousin, Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was. That way a precedent is set and we avoid a lot of discussion and conflict in the future. Sorry Rhaenyra.

[Arthur Peres]

Name Aegon II as heir.

[The Grey Wolf]

Marry Rhaenyra to Aegon and then betroth their son or daughter to the son or daughter of Laenor or Laena. Everyone wins!

[Ser Leftwich]

Ask GRRM to write a different outcome?

[Lion of the West]

Just pick one side of my family, the Arryn or the Hightower maternal branch, and stick with it. The other side will be removed from power and influence and perhaps even from court and so allow the other to simply have all the power at my death. Trying to placate both sides is understandable but not what will prevent the Dance.

[frenin]

Make Rhaenrya Hand. 

[Arthur Peres]

50 minutes ago, frenin said:

Make Rhaenrya Hand. 

For what we know of the woman, this is like naming Cersei as Hand...

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

For what we know of the woman, this is like naming Cersei as Hand...

Nah that's false. She only started losing it at the end of the war. After the 2 betrayers did their thing. She knew how to listen to good advice, which is why Corlys remained her Hand... until Tumblestone.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

For what we know of the woman, this is like naming Cersei as Hand...

From what we know she was a competent leader at first, save for a massive ego. It was losing her children that did the act on her.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenyra was never that bad as a ruler. Even her more extreme measures are more foolish than mad or cruel ... her entire court but for Corlys and Gerardys demanded the heads of the bastard dragonriders, and she only insisted on the execution of Nettles due to Mysaria's evil manipulation.

If you look at the terms in which her paranoia is described then it is based on the fact that she was repeatedly betrayed and came to expect treason even from those closest to her.

Any person fighting in the War of the Five Kings and living until TWoW would be well-advised to expect the same.

Her real flaws were that she was too weak and indecisive in crucial situations - she sent too few dragonriders to Rook's Rest (assuming she made a decision there at all), she should have turned Storm's End into another Harrenhal after Luke's murder (after Aemond was gone, of course), and she should have mounted Syrax and flown to the Dragonpit to save the dragons and burn the Shepherd and his mob - even if that had meant to burn down KL itself.

4 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Definitely name Aegon II as my heir. It would go along with the decision of the Great Council of 101 AC that elected me as King over my cousin, Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was. That way a precedent is set and we avoid a lot of discussion and conflict in the future. Sorry Rhaenyra.

It was the Great Council that caused the silly need to settle the succession while the king didn't have a son yet in the first place. The Great Council didn't settle anything, it postpone and laid the seed for the Dance later - that is why the story of the Great Council is part of the Dance narrative.

But, of course, the wisest course would have been for the king to not anoint an heir until he had a son of his own body.

Naming Aegon only after Rhaenyra had been named previously could have reduced the potential of a succession but I'm not sure if it would have prevented it - if Rhaenyra had ended up marrying Daemon anyway, a war would have come.

The crucial reason why this war took place is not because crucial players thought what they did was 'right', but rather because the royal family took a deep disliking to each other. Daemon Blackfyre and Renly show that all you need to start a succession war are strife in the royal family, flimsy pretexts, and ambitious lords willing to back you.

We can also be pretty sure that if Queen Rhaena had married a Lannister of Casterly Rock and there had been (dragonriding) offspring from that union that Jaehaerys I or his successors would have issues with those cousins. That kind of thing just is invitable.

Thus the question here is at when Viserys I was supposed to do something different - when there was already a sign that his family wasn't really getting along, or before that?

In the 120s I think there would have been a couple of very easy steps on the king's side to ensure that Rhaenyra would face no opposition when the king died:

1. Make Rhaenyra or Daemon or another die-hard Black the Hand, not Otto Hightower.

2. Demote Criston Cole from Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to just a regular White Sword (or force him to take the black).

3. Force Alicent, her sons, her entire family, and other prominent Greens to do Rhaenyra homage as the Heir Apparent and future queen in the 120s. Repeat this for the entire Realm at a great event (the king's 20th anniversary on the Iron Throne in 123 AC would be a great point).

4. Ensure each member of the Small Council and the court swears a vow of obedience to Rhaenyra personally.

5. Make Aegon and Helaena's twins wards of Rhaenyra and have her send them to Dragonstone where they would effectively be hostages.

3 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Marry Rhaenyra to Aegon and then betroth their son or daughter to the son or daughter of Laenor or Laena. Everyone wins!

That could, perhaps, have helped. But keep in mind that dynastic marriages could become failures, too. Visenya stood by the Conqueror throughout his life ... only to betray his son and persecute his grandsons after he was dead.

There could have been a Dance even if Rhaenyra and Aegon had married each other.

3 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Just pick one side of my family, the Arryn or the Hightower maternal branch, and stick with it. The other side will be removed from power and influence and perhaps even from court and so allow the other to simply have all the power at my death. Trying to placate both sides is understandable but not what will prevent the Dance.

That would be a cause to increase the chances that a succession war would be over very quickly or would be a very one-sided affair. It would not ensure that there would be none.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

1. Make Rhaenyra or Daemon or another die-hard Black the Hand, not Otto Hightower.

2. Demote Criston Cole from Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to just a regular White Sword (or force him to take the black).

3. Force Alicent, her sons, her entire family, and other prominent Greens to do Rhaenyra homage as the Heir Apparent and future queen in the 120s. Repeat this for the entire Realm at a great event (the king's 20th anniversary on the Iron Throne in 123 AC would be a great point).

4. Ensure each member of the Small Council and the court swears a vow of obedience to Rhaenyra personally.

5. Make Aegon and Helaena's twins wards of Rhaenyra and have her send them to Dragonstone where they would effectively be hostages.

That would have solved the problem of a succession crisis but would not have prevented war. Kicking the Greens out of power and especially trying to ward off Aegon and Helaena would have made the greens instantly rebel against the crown. They had dragons, so they could easily escape and start an uprising form Oldtown. All in all I think the moment Aemond took Vhaegar was what sealed the fate as it both made the greens equal to the blacks in dragon power and solidified an eternal hate between the factions.

Viserys probably realized what he started after the Aemond-Vhaegar incident, but he also realized that sidelining a faction would make them very angry and trying to completely eliminate them would make them go to war, so he just tried to placate everybody and pray a succession war didn't start.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That would have solved the problem of a succession crisis but would not have prevented war. Kicking the Greens out of power and especially trying to ward off Aegon and Helaena would have made the greens instantly rebel against the crown. They had dragons, so they could easily escape and start an uprising form Oldtown. All in all I think the moment Aemond took Vhaegar was what sealed the fate as it both made the greens equal to the blacks in dragon power and solidified an eternal hate between the factions.

I don't know. It is not that we can say that there was 'a Green faction' in power up until Otto Hightower returned as Hand. If that never happens then the Greens are not kicked out, they are just never allowed in. Of course, Queen Alicent would continue to be surrounded by coterie of favorites, etc. but they would be, perhaps, as prominent Daeron's Dornish friends during the reign of his father or the faction of Queen Naerys and the Dragonknight at the same time ... infuential to a certain degree, yes, but not running the show.

As for the dragons - they are a none issue if you control the city and the Dragonpit where they are kept. Which Rhaenyra/Daemon/some die-hard Black after Viserys I's death would do.

Aemond could become a problem but if push came to shove ... just slay Vhagar while she is chained and imprisoned in the Dragonpit.

But even Aemond wasn't that bad ... it is said that he considered an eye for a dragon a fair trait and that fits with the account of Storm's End where he isn't a warmongering madman but simply demands satisfaction for the loss of his eye. It is still over the top considering the whole thing was an accident and something that grow out of him savagely beating preteen children (who attacked him first) but he wasn't a completely loose canon after all.

And if you look at the whole Dance thing in detail the fact that half the Realm rose for Rhaenyra despite her being female and despite her father having three trueborn sons then it is quite clear that half of Westeros didn't really care that much about the male primogeniture thing. Jace made some offers, but there were no guarantees, and Cregan and Jeyne and the Corbrays came even after Jace was killed. Not to mention that the Riverlords never got any great offers, and neither got the Reach lords who turned black.

The fact that Aegon II only got half the Realm after the very successful coup indicates to me that very few lords would have declared for or supported a pretender 'Aegon II' if the man had been forced to proclaim himself king without having access to the Iron Throne, Blackfyre, the Red Keep, KL, etc.

But the crucial person to prevent the war would have been Rhaenyra herself - she would have been forced to give some of Alicent's sons high honors at court. If Aegon II himself actually never really aspired to become king then she certainly could have bought him with such a move. The crucial thing would have been to get him away from Alicent and Criston Cole.

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Viserys probably realized what he started after the Aemond-Vhaegar incident, but he also realized that sidelining a faction would make them very angry and trying to completely eliminate them would make them go to war, so he just tried to placate everybody and pray a succession war didn't start.

Perhaps. I definitely agree that Viserys I could never imagine that his family would try to kill each other the moment he was no longer there to keep the peace. I think if he had thought that he would have done more to ensure that this wouldn't happen.

The little we know about his reign implies, though, that the courtiers were very effective at keeping the depth of the hatred in the family from him (the best example for that is the feast in the late 120s where he retires early and doesn't witness what happens afterwards).

Could also be that, like Robert, he closed his eyes to some things he should or could have seen, but without getting his thoughts we won't know.

Considering his personality my guess is that a man like him wouldn't have been able to imagine his children and wife and brother fighting a war like the Dance even if he had an accurate picture of the hatred in his family.

[Darth Sidious]

6 hours ago, The Merling King said:

It’s 107 AC and queen Allicent Hightower has just given you a legitimate male heir, what would you do if you were king Viserys I? I would name Aegon II as my heir and promise the Valeryons that any daughter born of Rhaenyra and Laenor would marry the first born son of Prince Aegon and Helaina.

Viserys could do as he wished.  He wanted Rhaenyra to be his successor and that is fine.  He should have stepped down while still healthy and passed the throne to her.  Relying on others to carry out his decree after his passing was poor planning.  All the Great Lords will have to bend knee and swear fealty to Queen Rhaenyra.  Doing this early will give Viserys the time he needed to root out the corruption in his court.  A spymaster like Varys would have been handy.  Additionally, I might change Aegon's legal category to "bastard" and prevent him from thinking too big for his britches.

[BlackLightning]

Make Rhaenyra, Daemon, Rhaenys, Corlys, Cregan Stark or anyone who wasn't a hardcore Green the Hand of the King. Perhaps even give them 

Or better yet, keep Rhaenyra close and make her a constant presence at court in King's Landing and install Aegon II on Dragonstone as its Prince.

While there is no way Viserys I could have foreseen such carnage and chaos, he should have anticipated that there was going to be a big issue in regards to succession once he died. In all honesty, every single rightful heir to the Iron Throne since Aegon the Conqueror has faced opposition and weathered contention when their predecessor had passed. Every single one.

Viserys should have known better, particularly since his heir was female. If he wanted his named heir to be his heir without any form of dispute, then he ought to make sure said heir had the tools and the manpower to make the transfer of power quick, easy and clean. Make your heir a part of your government!

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra was never that bad as a ruler. Even her more extreme measures are more foolish than mad or cruel ... her entire court but for Corlys and Gerardys demanded the heads of the bastard dragonriders, and she only insisted on the execution of Nettles due to Mysaria's evil manipulation.

If you look at the terms in which her paranoia is described then it is based on the fact that she was repeatedly betrayed and came to expect treason even from those closest to her.

Any person fighting in the War of the Five Kings and living until TWoW would be well-advised to expect the same.

Her real flaws were that she was too weak and indecisive in crucial situations - she sent too few dragonriders to Rook's Rest (assuming she made a decision there at all), she should have turned Storm's End into another Harrenhal after Luke's murder (after Aemond was gone, of course), and she should have mounted Syrax and flown to the Dragonpit to save the dragons and burn the Shepherd and his mob - even if that had meant to burn down KL itself.

I 200% agree with this. I always thought people's feelings about how Rhaenyra had gone crazy were illogical, wrongfully colored by the reigns of Maegor and Aerys II and, frankly, misogynist. She had never been crazy. If she was crazy, she was crazy because she was clearly right even though everything else was saying that she was wrong. Like the old quasi-feminist Gothic horrors like Jane Eyre, Rebecca and Gaslight. 

While I understand why she wasn't quite in the mood to set Storm's End aflame with dragonfire, she should have absolutely saved the dragons in the Dragonpit from the mobs. She should not have even hesitated in flying Syrax into battle with the mobs. That is my BIGGEST problem with Rhaneyra. If that meant destroying large swathes of King's Landing, then so be it. It can be rebuilt and the commoners needed to be punished anyway for such treason, conspiracy and dissension.

Not so sure about Rook's Rest.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That could, perhaps, have helped. But keep in mind that dynastic marriages could become failures, too. Visenya stood by the Conqueror throughout his life ... only to betray his son and persecute his grandsons after he was dead.

There could have been a Dance even if Rhaenyra and Aegon had married each other.

That would be a cause to increase the chances that a succession war would be over very quickly or would be a very one-sided affair. It would not ensure that there would be none.

I disagree here though.

Visenya did not betray the Conqueror's son (who also happened to be her stepson and nephew). She did persecute the Conqueror's grandchildren but I can totally understand why she did. It was for the greater good of House Targaryen and the Seven Kingdoms as a collective nation. The Conqueror's son almost undid everything the Conqueror had done and his children were not slated to do any better.

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Viserys could do as he wished.  He wanted Rhaenyra to be his successor and that is fine.  He should have stepped down while still healthy and passed the throne to her.  Relying on others to carry out his decree after his passing was poor planning.  All the Great Lords will have to bend knee and swear fealty to Queen Rhaenyra.  Doing this early will give Viserys the time he needed to root out the corruption in his court.  A spymaster like Varys would have been handy.  Additionally, I might change Aegon's legal category to "bastard" and prevent him from thinking too big for his britches.

Now that would have probably started a rebellion. Granted, it wouldn't have been all-out war (House Hightower and its Targaryen offspring would be mostly alone in this) but it would have still come down to bloodshed.

[Darth Sidious]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Now that would have probably started a rebellion. Granted, it wouldn't have been all-out war (House Hightower and its Targaryen offspring would be mostly alone in this) but it would have still come down to bloodshed.

Maybe, maybe not.  It depends on how far Otto wanted to push it.  But Viserys has the right and the authority to do this.  He could replace Otto before bastardizing Aegon.  

[BlackLightning]

3 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Maybe, maybe not.  It depends on how far Otto wanted to push it.  But Viserys has the right and the authority to do this.  He could replace Otto before bastardizing Aegon.  

Why stop at bastardizing Aegon? Not Aemond?

If anything, out of the two, Aemond was the greater danger. It always had been that way.

[Eltharion21]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

From what we know she was a competent leader at first, save for a massive ego. It was losing her children that did the act on her.

Not really, She did birth three bastard children with Harwin Strong and when Vaemond Velaryon called it , she ordered his death and fed his body to her dragon ( knowing he was telling the truth) and also she asked for Aemond to be tortured for his claim of Strongs when he lost his eye to her son. Both things happened way before any of her children died.

 

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Not really, She did birth three bastard children with Harwin Strong and when Vaemond Velaryon called it , she ordered his death and fed his body to her dragon ( knowing he was telling the truth) and also she asked for Aemond to be tortured for his claim of Strongs when he lost his eye to her son. Both things happened way before any of her children died.

You really believe that?