What would you do if you were king Viserys I to avoid the Dance?

[Eltharion21]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

You really believe that?

You believe 1+1 aren't 2 ?

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Make Rhaenyra, Daemon, Rhaenys, Corlys, Cregan Stark or anyone who wasn't a hardcore Green the Hand of the King. Perhaps even give them 

Or better yet, keep Rhaenyra close and make her a constant presence at court in King's Landing and install Aegon II on Dragonstone as its Prince.

I think it would have been enough to make Rhaenyra the Hand.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

While there is no way Viserys I could have foreseen such carnage and chaos, he should have anticipated that there was going to be a big issue in regards to succession once he died. In all honesty, every single rightful heir to the Iron Throne since Aegon the Conqueror has faced opposition and weathered contention when their predecessor had passed. Every single one.

Well, he wasn't that kind of guy. He loved his family, even the ones who really vexed him at times (like Daemon), and one has to give it to him that his policies prevented war throughout his reign. It is certainly imaginable that a sterner approach in the 120s, say, could have led to a civil during his reign. The ailing Old King in 101 AC also knew he couldn't prevent a succession war by naming a new heir, who knows what would have happened if Viserys I had demanded Daemon's head (and he had been able to escape)?

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Viserys should have known better, particularly since his heir was female. If he wanted his named heir to be his heir without any form of dispute, then he ought to make sure said heir had the tools and the manpower to make the transfer of power quick, easy and clean. Make your heir a part of your government!

Sure, that was a mistake ... although I think we should not emphasize the female issue there too much. Since half the Realm rose for Rhaenyra (and especially the Reach and Riverlords without being offered anything of substance) we can say that Rhaenyra's cause was pretty strong even after the coup ... which can only mean that the whole male primogeniture wasn't as important as people want it to be. Even many of the Greens - especially not the Hightowers since Otto originally pushed for Rhaenyra as Heir Apparent against the precedent of the Great Council - weren't really motivated by that.

Instead, I'd say that Westeros had made its peace with the idea of a Queen Regnant by 129 AC. It is the Green coup that opens that can of worms again.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I 200% agree with this. I always thought people's feelings about how Rhaenyra had gone crazy were illogical, wrongfully colored by the reigns of Maegor and Aerys II and, frankly, misogynist. She had never been crazy. If she was crazy, she was crazy because she was clearly right even though everything else was saying that she was wrong. Like the old quasi-feminist Gothic horrors like Jane Eyre, Rebecca and Gaslight. 

As it turns out FaB makes her more a tragic figure ... she makes a couple of crucial mistakes, but it turns out that she does win the war. The letters she wrote before she fled KL and later in Duskendale ensured her victory ... she just wasn't around to see it because she returned to Dragonstone rather than continuing on to White Harbor.

If she had accompanied Medrick and Torrhen Manderly she may have returned to KL in triumph with Cregan Stark as prince consort at her side... For Aegon II there was pretty much no chance of victory ... even if Borros had won on the Kingsroad, the combined forces of the Northmen and the Vale men would have crushed the Greens eventually.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

While I understand why she wasn't quite in the mood to set Storm's End aflame with dragonfire, she should have absolutely saved the dragons in the Dragonpit from the mobs. She should not have even hesitated in flying Syrax into battle with the mobs. That is my BIGGEST problem with Rhaneyra. If that meant destroying large swathes of King's Landing, then so be it. It can be rebuilt and the commoners needed to be punished anyway for such treason, conspiracy and dissension.

I think the destruction of Storm's End would be a more prudent move than something like Blood and Cheese. Borros Baratheon did betray her and did not prevent Aemond from murdering Luke. This is the kind of thing that warrants punishment. And this would have sent a powerful message causing other lords to react with extreme caution. Rhaenyra did have more dragons than Aegon II, after all.

If she had sent an ultimatum to KL after that - yield or burn - the Kingslanders would have handed Alicent and her children to Rhaenyra on a golden platter.

Well, it might have been enough to fly to the Pit with Joffrey, unchain the dragons, and open the gates. Then they would have been able to fly away if the people had started to annoy them too much.

But, yeah, burning down the city was preferable to leaving it like a whipped cur. Not to mention that the decision to leave wasn't that reasonable anyway. Why on earth did they leave Alicent there? Why didn't Rhaenyra fetch Corlys from the dungeons to try to reconcile with him again? She could have needed his ships.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Not so sure about Rook's Rest.

Meleys, Syrax, Vermax, and Tyraxes could have prevailed against Vhagar and Sunfyre ... or if not, then they could at least been enough to prevent the loss of Meleys and Rhaenys. The younger dragons were much faster than old Vhagar, and could have destroyed Cole's army while Vhagar was occupied with the older dragons.

Or if they had been smart, they could have realized that this was likely some sort of dragonrider trap, and they could have used the assumption that KL was now defenseless to strike there.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I disagree here though.

Visenya did not betray the Conqueror's son (who also happened to be her stepson and nephew). She did persecute the Conqueror's grandchildren but I can totally understand why she did. It was for the greater good of House Targaryen and the Seven Kingdoms as a collective nation. The Conqueror's son almost undid everything the Conqueror had done and his children were not slated to do any better.

If Visenya did poison Aenys Targaryen she very much betrayed him (I'm not sure I buy that but it is a possibility the various texts seriously consider). She also betrayed him by bringing Maegor back from exile and helping him to usurp the throne.

There was no need for Maegor to usurp the throne to crush the Faith Militant. Prince Aegon wasn't a man grown, Maegor could have acted as Prince Regent, Protector of the Realm, and Hand of the King if one thinks the guy was really necessary to break the Faith - I think Visenya alone and Aenys' sons could have done all that just as well without Maegor, especially since all of them seem to have been very fine people with no character flaws whatsoever.

Maegor didn't save House Targaryen, he nearly destroyed it by killing Aegon and Viserys and trying to kill Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Rhaella.

[Arthur Peres]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Nah that's false. She only started losing it at the end of the war. After the 2 betrayers did their thing. She knew how to listen to good advice, which is why Corlys remained her Hand... until Tumblestone.

She was awful.

She made 3 bastards with Strong, may have a affair with a Kingsguard, pissed him off to make him her enemy, went on to punish past foes that bent the knee to her, lost control of Kings Landing and was chased out of the city by a mob of peasants...

Her resume is just as bad a Cersei... her rule is described as "Maegor with tits" by those who lived under her.

[frenin]

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She was awful.

At the end, certainly not at the beginning.

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She made 3 bastards with Strong,

True.

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

may have a affair with a Kingsguard,

Nah, that's false.

 

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

pissed him off to make him her enemy

True, but it's not her fault Cole cannot cope with rejections with grace.

 

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

punish past foes that bent the knee to her,

Nope, punish false friends that had already betrayed her.

 

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

lost control of Kings Landing and was chased out of the city by a mob of peasants...

"he only started losing it at the end of the war. After the 2 betrayers did their thing. She knew how to listen to good advice, which is why Corlys remained her Hand... until Tumblestone.".

 

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Her resume is just as bad a Cersei...

Not even close, like at all. You're exaggearating a great deal here to make a point.

 

 

@Eltharion21

Quote

Not really, She did birth three bastard children with Harwin Strong and when Vaemond Velaryon called it , she ordered his death and fed his body to her dragon ( knowing he was telling the truth) and also she asked for Aemond to be tortured for his claim of Strongs when he lost his eye to her son. Both things happened way before any of her children died.

While i do agree that fathering three obvious bastards is stupid. Why Vaemond speaking treason and actually plotting to steal Driftmark is considered bad again?? And ofc she did ask for Awmond to be tortured for his words, if such words can cost you your throne... you ought to erradicate them... Don't really see why that makes her an incompetent ruler, especially the Vaemond bit.

[Arthur Peres]

Just now, frenin said:

Not even close, like at all. You're exaggearating a great deal here to make a point.

 

Not by much... the whole Blood and Cheese is just pointless cruelty without any strategic gain, her behaviour towards Nettles was very irrational and only made more people challange her for no reason, even her second marriage with Daemon shows that she was irresponsible as the only point in naming her heir was to prevent Daemon to become King.

Rhaenyra is pretty much Cersei with Dragons and probably a lit bit smarter and more cruel...

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not by much... the whole Blood and Cheese is just pointless cruelty without any strategic gain,

Was that her plan??

 

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

her behaviour towards Nettles was very irrational and only made more people challange her for no reason,

"she only started losing it at the end of the war. After the 2 betrayers did their thing. She knew how to listen to good advice, which is why Corlys remained her Hand... until Tumblestone."

 

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

even her second marriage with Daemon shows that she was irresponsible as the only point in naming her heir was to prevent Daemon to become King.

And he'd become consort, not King in his own right, with all the power that entails.

 

 

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Rhaenyra is pretty much Cersei with Dragons and probably a lit bit smarter and more cruel...

Not even close. You just disliked her.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

7 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Not really, She did birth three bastard children with Harwin Strong and when Vaemond Velaryon called it , she ordered his death and fed his body to her dragon ( knowing he was telling the truth) and also she asked for Aemond to be tortured for his claim of Strongs when he lost his eye to her son. Both things happened way before any of her children died.

You really believe that?

Almost everybody believes that. They maybe weren't Harwin's but they sure as hell weren't the kids of Laenor who was valyrian blond and gay. And of all the other men that were in her circle, Harwin seems to be the most likely.

7 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Not really, She did birth three bastard children with Harwin Strong and when Vaemond Velaryon called it , she ordered his death and fed his body to her dragon ( knowing he was telling the truth) and also she asked for Aemond to be tortured for his claim of Strongs when he lost his eye to her son. Both things happened way before any of her children died.

That's ruthless, not stupid. She realized of he bat that those 2 were an existential threat to her, and honestly she was right to fear them, especially with Aemond. As for the bastard children that's the hubris and pride I talked about.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not by much... the whole Blood and Cheese is just pointless cruelty without any strategic gain

Well besides the her obvious need for revenge she did accomplish 2 things. 1. She showed a lot of power and 2. She knocked out Helaena as a dragon-rider. Not saying it wasn't cruel and horrible, but it did have a point.

[BlackLightning]

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

You believe 1+1 aren't 2 ?

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Almost everybody believes that. They maybe weren't Harwin's but they sure as hell weren't the kids of Laenor who was valyrian blond and gay. And of all the other men that were in her circle, Harwin seems to be the most likely.

In any case, the fact that Rhaenyra has bastard children has no bearing on her becoming the Queen Regnant. It shouldn't get in the way and the fact that Viserys I tolerated the behavior of Aemond, Alicent and Aegon in regards to their own kin is astounding. Daemon never rose to the level of Alicent and certainly not to Aemond.

Shame. Rhaenyra was right to want to see him punished.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

In any case, the fact that Rhaenyra has bastard children has no bearing on her becoming the Queen Regnant

In all fairness it does matter. Had she becomed queen at the beginning her heirs would have been bastards.

[BlackLightning]

6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

In all fairness it does matter. Had she becomed queen at the beginning her heirs would have been bastards.

Yeah on second thought I see what you mean.

That's not good and it would have caused problems down the road with the succession after Rhaenyra. Nevertheless, I suppose that its her right as Queen to choose her own heirs. But then again, in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't matter. A monarch can legitimize bastards as trueborn children. The Stark king who was a contemporary of Bael the Bard....he was succeeded by his bastard grandson who he presumably legitimized. Roose Bolton's current heir is his bastard son legitimized by King Tommen. And King Robb legitimized Jon Snow and named him his heir and it seems like Catelyn was the only one who argued against it.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The wiser thing to do would have been just to make her children by Daemon the first in line to the Iron Throne simply because their name is Targaryen.

That may have caused another Dance seeing as the 3 strong kids were all dragon riders. Also disinheriting them would have been tantamount to admitting their bastardy.

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That may have caused another Dance seeing as the 3 strong kids were all dragon riders. Also disinheriting them would have been tantamount to admitting their bastardy.

True.

It would have all been just as well if Rhaenyra had just given all of her children the name Targaryen to emphasize that they are her children and that they get a bigger, richer inheritance from her than from their father.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

56 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

True.

It would have all been just as well if Rhaenyra had just given all of her children the name Targaryen to emphasize that they are her children and that they get a bigger, richer inheritance from her than from their father.

I dunno. All in all she kinda screwed herself with the 3 strong children. Either she made them heirs in which case she would have massive legitimacy problems, either she sidelined them, in which case they could start Dance of Dragons 2 electric boogaloo. All in all it was probably best for the realm that they all died in the Dance, as Aegon and Viserys were clearly legit Targs.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenyra's sons were never really an issue for the succession. Her enemies didn't move against her because her sons may not have been the children of her first husband, they moved against her because they hated her, personally.

If the issue of her sons would have been a broader issue we would have heard something about that from other lords - both amongst the Blacks themselves (who could very well have been Black but been of the opinion that Rhaenyra should name Aegon the Younger her heir rather than Jacaerys or Joffrey to make it clear that a legitimate Targaryen would succeed her) as well as among the various lords Jace and others were courting at the beginning of the Dance. There should have been some neutral lords who chose to refuse to fight for Rhaenyra because she was a slut cuckolding her late lord husband and fathering bastards one of which she now presumed to send around as an envoy.

The fact that this didn't happen strongly indicates that this was a non-issue for the overwhelming majority of people. And the most crucial thing is that Corlys Velaryon saw his grandsons as trueborn Velaryon. If he did that - he who most definitely must have known who the father of those children was and who they resembled - and if he did stand by Rhaenyra and Daemon after the Vaemond affair then this thing is settled.

[Eltharion21]

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Almost everybody believes that. They maybe weren't Harwin's but they sure as hell weren't the kids of Laenor who was valyrian blond and gay. And of all the other men that were in her circle, Harwin seems to be the most likely.

That's ruthless, not stupid. She realized of he bat that those 2 were an existential threat to her, and honestly she was right to fear them, especially with Aemond. As for the bastard children that's the hubris and pride I talked about.

I think more "stupid" thing (or matter of hubris) was getting in the problem in the first place ( having three bastard children and naming them as hairs of the Iron Throne).

I am not claiming Rhaenyra was stupid, just very flawed and that flaws were evident much before any of her children died, she even blamed other side for stillbirth of her daughter, she seem to have from earliest period  leaning toward cruelty and paranoia ( like Aerys II or Maegor).

[Eltharion21]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

In any case, the fact that Rhaenyra has bastard children has no bearing on her becoming the Queen Regnant. It shouldn't get in the way and the fact that Viserys I tolerated the behavior of Aemond, Alicent and Aegon in regards to their own kin is astounding. Daemon never rose to the level of Alicent and certainly not to Aemond.

Shame. Rhaenyra was right to want to see him punished.

If you look from point of view and knowledge of person existing in the time period or during Asoiaf timeline (various Royals, Lords or bannermen who  tend to go with "Shadow on the wall" conundrum  it can be difficulty proven since there are no paternity tests, but from the pov of more informed or contemporary reader the truth is clear.

Aemond deserves punishment for murdering Lucerys, killing Strongs in Harenhall or  burning the Riverland civilians , but for taking Vhagar or fighting against Rhaenyra's children he isn't at fault.

Daemon committed one of the vilest acts in ordering "a son for a son" , a deed of pure evil, murder of his brothers grandchild and torment of his daughter other grandchildren, all innocent of Aemonds crime , without much logical reason but to send a message and drag conflict in the furthest blood and destruction. I wonder what deeds that Alicent or Aemond had done could top that?

 

[Eltharion21]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

At the end, certainly not at the beginning.

True.

Nah, that's false.

 

True, but it's not her fault Cole cannot cope with rejections with grace.

 

Nope, punish false friends that had already betrayed her.

 

"he only started losing it at the end of the war. After the 2 betrayers did their thing. She knew how to listen to good advice, which is why Corlys remained her Hand... until Tumblestone.".

 

Not even close, like at all. You're exaggearating a great deal here to make a point.

 

 

@Eltharion21

While i do agree that fathering three obvious bastards is stupid. Why Vaemond speaking treason and actually plotting to steal Driftmark is considered bad again?? And ofc she did ask for Awmond to be tortured for his words, if such words can cost you your throne... you ought to erradicate them... Don't really see why that makes her an incompetent ruler, especially the Vaemond bit.

Compare him with Eddard Stark saying same about Robert's heirs , I see it as sort of analogy, and funny thing his granddaughter becomes queen and wife to Rhaenyra's son later. 

If she had shown some reason and forgiveness things might had been much different, that I feel same for some of Aegon II's decisions. Whatever else Aemond was still child then, douche maybe ,  but still could be changed for the better and if shown some sympathy maybe wouldn't kill Lucerys.

[frenin]

11 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Compare him with Eddard Stark saying same about Robert's heirs , I see it as sort of analogy,

Don't see the point really, she's ruthless, not stupid.

 

11 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

 If she had shown some reason and forgiveness things might had been much different, that I feel same for some of Aegon II's decisions. Whatever else Aemond was still child then, douche maybe ,  but still could be changed for the better and if shown some sympathy maybe wouldn't kill Lucerys.

To whom?? Aemond did not change for the worse because Rhaenrya threatened with torture him, that's 

And Rhaenrya only really became spiteful and unforgiving after the death of Jace and even then, she spared Alicent's life,  she only started to lost it after the Tumblestone betrayal.

 

 

Quote

I think more "stupid" thing (or matter of hubris) was getting in the problem in the first place ( having three bastard children and naming them as hairs of the Iron Throne).

True to the first, nah to the second,  the bastardy did not change a thing, the greens would have hated them all the same and as it happened no one outside the Green court, or the Velaryon party who sought to claim Driftmark really cared about it.

 

Quote

 I am not claiming Rhaenyra was stupid, just very flawed and that flaws were evident much before any of her children died, she even blamed other side for stillbirth of her daughter, she seem to always has leaning toward cruelty and paranoia ( Aerys II, Maegor).

No one ever claimed that she was perfect and ruthlessness at itself is not bad, there  is no reason to actually be against what she did to Vaemond. And... you know that emotions are a factor in pregnancies right?? Rhaenrya dus not know her child was a stillbirth,

She does not lean to cruelty and paranoia, that's absurd. Honestly, Rhawnrya has many flaws and brought her doom onto herself, but you do love to exaggerate a lot to make a  point.

 

 

 

 

[The hairy bear]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

All in all she kinda screwed herself with the 3 strong children.

When judging her actions, we should consider the alternative. If Rhaenyra hadn't had offspring during the seven years she was married to Laenor, it would have hurt her chances to become queen more than the rumors of bastardy.

It must be admitted that she was also very unlucky. She was three quarters Targaryen and looked fully Valyrian, so at least one of her kids with Harwin could have had Valyrian looks. All the other Targaryen matches with non Valyrians have produced mixed offspring (Aemon and Jocelyn Baraethon, Daeron II and Myriah Martell, Baelor and Jenna Dondarrion, Rhaegar and Elia Martell,... all produced at least some children with Valyrian features)

It's also worth noting that she had her boys in a row (she married Laenor at 114, and gave birth at 114, 115 and 117). After that, and until Harwin died at 120, no more children were born. This suggests that (a) Rhaenyra's intent had more to do with securing the crown's succession than with lust, and (b) once it became apparent that her offspring with Harwin didn't produce the adequate looks, she stopped.

All things considered, and given that the Velaryons were clearly on board with the arrangement, I wouldn't be too hard on Rhaenyra on that front.