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Why is Hollywood responding so strongly to actors criticisms regarding Game of Thrones predominately white cast with the big upcoming epic fantasy adaptations?


Mwm

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When I was mentioning relatively recent examples of whitewashed adaptations, I forgot to mention another fantasy series - the 2004 SciFi channel miniseries Earthsea (that's just 16 years ago, and still, as far as I know, the most recent and probably only adaptation, though a movie is supposed to be in preparation), which the late Ursula LeGuin herself was very angry about. , Ged, the main character of The Wizard of Earthsea, and his people are explicitly described as darker skinned, but they cast Shawn Ashmore. 

It was also sad to see how happy GRRM was simply because they cast an actual black woman as Melantha Jhirl  (the main character, who is explicitly described as black in the story) in the 2018 ScyFy adaptation of Nightflyers, unlike the 1980s movie where they cast a white actress. I haven't seen it, because trailers didn't look promising and everyone said it was awful, but can someone who's seen it tell me if she was actually treated as the main character? The trailers made it look like Gretchen Mol's and Eion Macken's characters were the leads.

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3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

And yet movies and TV adaptations of Wuthering Heights, for instance, have always been casting white actors as Heathcliff (with a very rare exception), even though the character being visibly non-white and different from the other characters in the novel, and racism he suffered growing up, is a big part of his story in the novel.

That's the most egregious example of constant whitewashing I can think of, but there's more. Captain Nemo (an Indian fighting against British colonials) also gets cast as a white guy often. Every single Romani character in Hollywood is played by white actors - and a lot of Americams and Western European people seem to think Romani look white. Remember that time when Hollywood cast a Spanish actor - as in, from Spain (Antonio Banderas) in The House of Spirits as an indigenous American man opposite a bunch of white Spanish people (played by a bunch of  white British and American people)?

And Hollywood is not even the worst in that respect. Take a look at any Mexican telenovela. They keep casting the whitest people they can find in all the lead roles, in a country with the largest indigenous American and mestizo population, where whites are a minority. Which, admittedly, is not whitewashing in the strict sense - since these are not pre-existing characters - but it's certainly messed up.

 

I am not referring to the past because we all know just how bad it was. I am referring to now and the future, hence the Harriet Tubman reference.

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5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Your point about accents basically "this is the right way to do it because Hollywood has been doing it that way". 



Look, I'm as likely as the next person to jump on HoI (probably more likely than most of the next people tbh) but I don't really get the controversy about this accent thing. Conventions exist and are leaned into for a reason - it really doesn't matter what the history is here, it's about the perception. You and Zorrall can make all the arguments you like about the long history of the NY accent and the realtive moddernness of the Queen's English and be totally right about it, but that doesn't change what a casual viewer (ie most of us) percieves and associates when we hear them, which is that the NY accent is associated most easily with a modern New York setting.


Yeah you can challenge it or disregard it or long-term work to change those perceptions but as it stands there is a reason they are leaned into and it's because HoI is right- most strong American accents sound out of place to a casual listener if used in most historical settings whereas British accents do not. Even if that setting is Rome or Russia. So to ease suspension of disbelief they abide by those conventions and when not it is almost always with a conscious intent behind it (as in Ben Hur). 

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Yeah in this case i think it was an innocent remark without any real agenda about English accents. Or making it equivalent to only having white people in fantasy films because, newsflash, people with English accents aren't all white. There's a lot of great examples already but take John Boyega who's mentioned in the OP

It's basically a shorthand storytelling technique in films at present (like flaming torches rarely existing in gothic/medieval settings or fighting styles in pretty much everything). Particularly for anything set before the 19th century (or appearing to be a world set prior). I think a lot of people unconsciously go "English accents this is a fantasy/old setting". There's probably equivalents in other language films. I wonder if there's a "sound" for chinese history/fantasy? Probably.

Would i not enjoy a fantasy film because they had new york accent? Of course not. My favourite character in disenchantment is the king. And there's no dissonance because the show is deliberately trying to be a modern take on the fantasy genre. They actually use the stereotypical English accents to good effect too.

 

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When looking at the WOT cast list, it does seem like someone was checking off boxes on a diversity checklist, and that's kind of annoying. There's no indication anywhere in the books that the area where the heroes are from (I forget the name) is anything other than lily white in ethnicity. So why are the actors for Egwene, Nynaeve, and Perrin all darker skinned? Now, if the actors are great in the roles, it won't matter. But it seems forced, and that's unfortunate because the world Jordan created has different ethnicities built in as a feature. There's plenty of room in the story for non-white characters. 

But honestly, I'm not optimistic about this series. I have this sinking feeling it's going to a be a YA angst-fest and will get canceled after one season. 

Someone should take on Malazan. Certainly no problem with diversity there!

 

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19 minutes ago, Pecan said:

When looking at the WOT cast list, it does seem like someone was checking off boxes on a diversity checklist, and that's kind of annoying. There's no indication anywhere in the books that the area where the heroes are from (I forget the name) is anything other than lily white in ethnicity. So why are the actors for Egwene, Nynaeve, and Perrin all darker skinned?

 

 

As others have said in this thread why is there a default assumption of whiteness unless otherwise specified? The Wheel of Time is set in a far future after a global utopian state existed for millennia and then a mass diaspora of refugees in a world-shattering apocalypse so I don't think one can make any assumptions at all about the skin tones of the peoples who are found anywhere in the world. As Wert mentioned Jordan rarely comments on the skin colours of his characters and when he does he's usually vague about it and only points things out explicitly when it comes to the rare homogenous ethinc groups that we meet in the series. Skin Colour is basically irrelevant in the setting, Jordan was far more concerned with cultural identity - people identify others based on their customs, modes of speech, and the clothes they wear.

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3 hours ago, red snow said:

Yeah in this case i think it was an innocent remark without any real agenda about English accents. Or making it equivalent to only having white people in fantasy films because, newsflash, people with English accents aren't all white. There's a lot of great examples already but take John Boyega who's mentioned in the OP

It's basically a shorthand storytelling technique in films at present (like flaming torches rarely existing in gothic/medieval settings or fighting styles in pretty much everything). Particularly for anything set before the 19th century (or appearing to be a world set prior). I think a lot of people unconsciously go "English accents this is a fantasy/old setting". There's probably equivalents in other language films. I wonder if there's a "sound" for chinese history/fantasy? Probably.

Would i not enjoy a fantasy film because they had new york accent? Of course not. My favourite character in disenchantment is the king. And there's no dissonance because the show is deliberately trying to be a modern take on the fantasy genre. They actually use the stereotypical English accents to good effect too.

 

Yeah, so stupid that someone said that only white people have English accents...Oh wait. No one has said anything like that. So I'm not sure why you felt compelled to argue against something absolutely no one ever said.

Hol intreduced the accent discussion, not me. Why? I have no idea. But there are two different discussions going on here, about racial diversity and about accents.

I personally don't complain about people speaking English with RP or whatever accent in period dramas set in Ancient Rome or Middle Ages or whatever. But when someone starts arguing that actors must have British accents in those films/TV shows or else it wouldn't be..what, authentic?! That's when it becomes ridiculous. And that's what Hol said.

You're suspending your disbelief so Ancient Romans speak English? Fine! Then you should be able to suspend it whichever accent the actors are using!

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2 hours ago, Pecan said:

When looking at the WOT cast list, it does seem like someone was checking off boxes on a diversity checklist, and that's kind of annoying. There's no indication anywhere in the books that the area where the heroes are from (I forget the name) is anything other than lily white in ethnicity.

Apart from the repeated, continuous statements that Rand is a different skin colour to the rest of the Two Rivers characters and is much fairer than them?

If anything, the question is why they cast a lighter-skinned actor as Mat, as Mat is never described as looking anything other than the same ethnicity as Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve.

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Someone should take on Malazan. Certainly no problem with diversity there!

 

I've seen plenty of Malazan casting threads on different boards where the suggestion of black actors for Kalam and Quick Ben has been met with angry vitriol. People don't read their books very closely.

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3 hours ago, Pecan said:

When looking at the WOT cast list, it does seem like someone was checking off boxes on a diversity checklist, and that's kind of annoying. There's no indication anywhere in the books that the area where the heroes are from (I forget the name) is anything other than lily white in ethnicity. So why are the actors for Egwene, Nynaeve, and Perrin all darker skinned? Now, if the actors are great in the roles, it won't matter. But it seems forced, and that's unfortunate because the world Jordan created has different ethnicities built in as a feature. There's plenty of room in the story for non-white characters. 

But honestly, I'm not optimistic about this series. I have this sinking feeling it's going to a be a YA angst-fest and will get canceled after one season. 

Someone should take on Malazan. Certainly no problem with diversity there!

 

it seems forced TO YOU, it seems that they are checking boxes TO YOU.  maybe ask yourself why does it seems this way to you?

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49 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Hol intreduced the accent discussion, not me. Why? I have no idea.

That's weird because he pretty explicitly said why: that for all the talk of race and ethnicity in casting a different accent is far more noticeable a change to most people. It was a casual observation that led to a casual conversation that you and Zorrall have for some reason chosen to take offence to and blow way out of proportion. Hell, it wasn't even in support of HoI's own overall general position.

He also said nothing about authenticity.

 

51 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

You're suspending your disbelief so Ancient Romans speak English? Fine! Then you should be able to suspend it whichever accent the actors are using!


Yeah... that's not how suspension of disbelief generally works.


 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

Yeah, so stupid that someone said that only white people have English accents...Oh wait. No one has said anything like that. So I'm not sure why you felt compelled to argue against something absolutely no one ever said.

 

I wasn't arguing against but last I checked I don't have to be responding to an argument in order to point something out. My entire point was the accent thing wasn't brought up as part of the OP which was about diversity. I didn't even reply to your post directly so it seems we are both on the same page and not realising it. Apologies if my attempt to separate the two weren't clear.

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

 

Hol intreduced the accent discussion, not me. Why? I have no idea. But there are two different discussions going on here, about racial diversity and about accents.

 

Exactly! 

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

. But when someone starts arguing that actors must have British accents in those films/TV shows or else it wouldn't be..what, authentic?! That's when it becomes ridiculous. And that's what Hol said.

 

I agree that's ridiculous. My argument is that it's simply an easy tool to use when establishing a medieval fantasy world setting because it's done so often. It doesn't mean you can't do it another way - it's probably more novel not to but films are well known for being lazy. 

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

 

You're suspending your disbelief so Ancient Romans speak English? Fine! Then you should be able to suspend it whichever accent the actors are using!

 You're telling me to do something I literally just said I do in the piece you quoted me on. Or you're confusing me by responding to something HOI said in a reply to me?

You'd almost think this thread had been designed to incite arguments. 

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19 hours ago, polishgenius said:

reason they are leaned into

The reason they are LEANED into is because that is what is presented, not because there was a reason for beyond that is how our blinkered, blinded and narrow-focused racialist, sexist, etc. forerunners in literature and entertainments chose to.  As soon as diversity is presented as a normal it becomes understood, and the lack of diversity is considered old-fashioned and short-sighted. 

The guys who insist the world's default for heroes and stage center to be able-bodied, white men who speak early and mid 20th century posh Brit are showing their dirty underwear.

This argument wouldn't be accepted as a valid thesis in any freshman English paper -- at least in the day when Freshman English and high school English was still taught and carried a unit on construction of valid argument.

People know more now. They live in a different world. This argument is for the world I used to know and don't want to know the world has changed.  Gads, let's make Othello white -- o wait! we used to!  No black actors allowed for Othello, only white guys in black face.

 

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2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

it seems forced TO YOU, it seems that they are checking boxes TO YOU.  maybe ask yourself why does it seems this way to you?

I knew this comment was coming. 

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12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

The reason they are LEANED into is because that is what is presented, not because there was a reason for beyond that is how our blinkered, blinded and narrow-focused racialist, sexist, etc. forerunners in literature and entertainments chose to.  As soon as diversity is presented as a normal it becomes understood, and the lack of diversity is considered old-fashioned and short-sighted. 

The guys who insist the world's default for heroes and stage center to be able-bodied, white men who speak early and mid 20th century posh Brit are showing their dirty underwear.

This argument wouldn't be accepted as a valid thesis in any freshman English paper -- at least in the day when Freshman English and high school English was still taught and carried a unit on construction of valid argument.

People know more now. They live in a different world. This argument is for the world I used to know and don't want to know the world has changed.  Gads, let's make Othello white -- o wait! we used to!  No black actors allowed for Othello, only white guys in black face.

 



It's funny coz the two Snows were just saying how no-one's saying that only white people have English accents and the accent and race arguments are two separate conversations and in your endless straining effort to prove you're the smartest guy in the room you crash-conflated the two in a nonsensical way that bears no relation to the presented reasons why things are seen the way they are. Well done. Applause applause applause.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Pecan said:

I knew this comment was coming. 


Why did you lean into it then? I mean, why do you assume that everyone's white unless presented as otherwise? 

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2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

That's weird because he pretty explicitly said why: that for all the talk of race and ethnicity in casting a different accent is far more noticeable a change to most people. It was a casual observation that led to a casual conversation that you and Zorrall have for some reason chosen to take offence to and blow way out of proportion. Hell, it wasn't even in support of HoI's own overall general position.

He also said nothing about authenticity.

 


Yeah... that's not how suspension of disbelief generally works.


 

 

 

 

Funny, since the only person here who seems, for whatever reason, angry and upset about this is you, yet you're saying others have "blown it out of proportion". Mkay ..

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4 hours ago, Werthead said:

Apart from the repeated, continuous statements that Rand is a different skin colour to the rest of the Two Rivers characters and is much fairer than them?

Jordan's "ethnic" picture of the characters in the Two Rivers was Caucasian, but perhaps more in the "Mediterranean" direction. OTOH, when one sees his casting ideas, every single TR character is being played by someone white (surprisingly whiter than I expected, even, to the point where 'dark' just means dark hair and eyes and maybe a propensity to tan...)

I think he saw the TR as "black Irish", and was basically how he saw himself and his family and so on.

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If anything, the question is why they cast a lighter-skinned actor as Mat, as Mat is never described as looking anything other than the same ethnicity as Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve.

Well, to be fair, Egwene's a different ethnicity from Perrin and Nynaeve on the show, so that's three ethnic groups. Tam also looks more like Mat than Perrin and Nynaeve, so basically the TR has three distinctive ethnic groupings within its boundaries. Or two if we want to put an Australian aboriginal in the "black" category. 

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I've seen plenty of Malazan casting threads on different boards where the suggestion of black actors for Kalam and Quick Ben has been met with angry vitriol. People don't read their books very closely.

Indeed. Same people who read the TR characters as black, apparently, which baffled me what with the book covers...

 

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2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Why did you lean into it then? I mean, why do you assume that everyone's white unless presented as otherwise? 

If you read the wiki, the Emonds Field crew are described as brown-haired and brown-eyed, except for Rand. It doesn't say skin color in the wiki and I can't recall what it says in the books. Okay, fine. Whatever. I still think the most common interpretation is that these are dark haired white people. But in putting the show together, I think someone simply decided that they wanted the cast to look more like a modern day teen angst drama. Hopefully I'm wrong about that. I would like for the show to be good. 

 

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