Purple Wedding, Finally Solved.

[mormont]

The purple wedding was solved long ago: the wine was poisoned. That's really all there is to it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

@Nevets @Hugorfonics

Play along with me for a minute because this is probably crack pottery - it's very early & I just woke up so maybe all my brain cells aren't moving yet - forgive me if this is absurd

BUT

Is it possible that the Tyrell plot was to kill Tyrion & pin it on Joff? It would work right? The whole court saw Joff being a jerk to Tyrion. This is exactly the reason people buy that Tyrion killed Joff right? So maybe their intention was to kill Tyrion & pin it on Joff, killing two birds with one stone. It worked out, but opposite. 

My thing is I think wholeheartedly the pie was poisoned, not the wine because Margaery was drinking the wine too. But if the pie was poisoned how would they ever know Joff would eat Tyrion's pie? They wouldn't. But killing Tyrion doesn't help Margaery, it only removes the barrier between them & the key to the north. They would still need to rid themselves of Joff. 

[mormont]

The pie was not poisoned.

That is inconsistent with the information in the text about how Strangler poison works. And again, at a feast with hundreds of people, there's no such thing as 'Tyrion's pie': that's not how feasts are served. It would also require multiple additional steps to the plan that are unlikely or unexplained. For example, either Tyrion was the intended target - which is inconsistent with every character reaction and plot development that follows, and frankly makes no sense, because there's no reason to take Tyrion out at the feast specifically - or somehow the poisoner predicted that Joff would go over to Tyrion's place and eat his pie before he could, which is clearly not credible.

The book really is closed on this one. Joff was poisoned by the wine.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, mormont said:

The pie was not poisoned.

That is inconsistent with the information in the text about how Strangler poison works. And again, at a feast with hundreds of people, there's no such thing as 'Tyrion's pie': that's not how feasts are served. It would also require multiple additional steps to the plan that are unlikely or unexplained. For example, either Tyrion was the intended target - which is inconsistent with every character reaction and plot development that follows, and frankly makes no sense, because there's no reason to take Tyrion out at the feast specifically - or somehow the poisoner predicted that Joff would go over to Tyrion's place and eat his pie before he could, which is clearly not credible.

The book really is closed on this one. Joff was poisoned by the wine.

Thanks but even though you think the case is closed on the subject, the rest of us are still permitted to discuss it, no?

The piece of pie Joff ate was clearly "Tyrion's pie" so it seems there is a such thing as Tyrion's pie. 

People at feasts don't share plates of food. Once the pie was cut & placed in front of Tyrion, it was his pie. 

What steps does it take to put poison into that piece of pie that are additional to what would be needed to put the poison in the wine? Which steps would be unlikely or unexplained?

I disagree that Tyrion being the target is inconsistent with plot development but what do you mean by it being inconsistent with character reaction?

There certainly is a reason to take Tyrion out at the feast. The Tyrell's want to take Sansa, LF wants to take Sansa - Tyrion being married to her hinders both things & if they wanted the murder pinned on Joff the motive would have to be presented in front of this many people for it to stick, he is the King after all. 

If Tyrion was the target the murderer would not need to predict Joff would eat the pie right? 

 

[mormont]

People can discuss whatever they like - it's why the board is here!

But this particular discussion just strikes me as a bit dry and pointless. There won't be any new information coming, and the information we have points absolutely to the wine being poisoned and nothing else.

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The piece of pie Joff ate was clearly "Tyrion's pie" so it seems there is a such thing as Tyrion's pie. 

Not in any meaningful sense. It's just the plate that happens to be in front of Tyrion. There's no way to poison that particular piece of pie before it's right in front of him, in full view. At which point you, what, put a crystal in his pie? Pour some sort of solution of the poison that's never been seen before in the text over it? I suppose the latter is conceivable, but just because something is conceivable doesn't mean it should be given any credibility.

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

People at feasts don't share plates of food.

This is absolutely untrue, I'm afraid. I do know what I'm talking about here. Medieval and renaissance feasts are typically served by placing platters of food on each table, from which guests serve themselves. If the tables are particularly large there may be a platter for every half-dozen guests or so. Individual service, with one plate coming from the kitchen intended for a particular guest as in a modern restaurant, is simply not a thing.

28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What steps does it take to put poison into that piece of pie that are additional to what would be needed to put the poison in the wine? Which steps would be unlikely or unexplained?

You've misunderstood me slightly - I said that the theory requires extra unlikely steps to make it work, not that the mechanical act of putting the poison in the pie does. But that said, as noted, poisoning the pie at the table requires an extra person involved in the plot to insert the poison, an extra step to ensure that the plate in front of Tyrion specifically is poisoned, and an extra step to poison the pie (the creation of a solution of Strangler or some other way to get the crystal into the pie in a way that makes it actually effective).

It also requires a motive to poison Tyrion in this way and at this time and place specifically (or the incredible foresight to see that Joff would eat Tyrion's pie). It requires explanation for why everyone reacts as if the plot were exactly as it is explained to be, and why the author would include this explanation and then not give any further hints that there is anything unexplained about the matter for two further books.

No character considers for a single second, even Tyrion, that he could possibly have been the target. If the reader is supposed to suspect that, then this is bad writing, untypical of the rest of the books. And the idea that you would come up with a plot to frame the king, of all people, for murder is absurd. If Joffrey wanted to kill Tyrion he could have ordered his execution! And who's going to try the king for murder? Who's going to accuse him, call him a liar if he denies it, find him guilty and execute him? Tywin? Hardly.

It's just not a believable plot, certainly not one that master schemers like Olenna or Littlefinger would come up with. Sorry.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Pedro Luiz said:

I find it spectacular that he managed not only to deduce that, but also that Tyrion would be acused as well. Which means that he didn't expect Tyrion to die that night.

Spectacular to hear the bells, specifically designed to sound when a king dies? And he heard Tyrion got arrested before he met up with Sansa. We dont know what he expected, but no reason for him to wild out if the plan hits a bump

5 hours ago, Pedro Luiz said:

Did you read the second section of the theory?

I did. Responded to it too.

4 hours ago, mormont said:

The purple wedding was solved long ago: the wine was poisoned. That's really all there is to it.

Thanks George 

2 hours ago, mormont said:

The pie was not poisoned.

That is inconsistent with the information in the text about how Strangler poison works.

I see no guarantee that the Strangler was Joffreys meal ticket. There are countless poisons in asoiaf, Strangler doesnt have to be the only purple one (and the timings not that bad, comparing a youth to an old man, yada yada yada)

1 hour ago, mormont said:

No character considers for a single second, even Tyrion, that he could possibly have been the target. If the reader is supposed to suspect that, then this is bad writing, untypical of the rest of the books.

Tyrion is our main guy, (well top 5) if the story moves it moves with our protagonists. For him to be a target from Petyr, a known antagonist to Tyrion, has been a consistent theme in the books. Furthermore Sansa unknowingly marionetting the events of KL is another major theme in the books.

The writing, imo, looks better with Tyrion as the target. Who really cared about Joff?

... You know not one character has ever said who Jons folks are. I mean they tell us all the time its Ned or Ashara or Daynes milkma. This doesn't make it bad writing

1 hour ago, mormont said:

But this particular discussion just strikes me as a bit dry and pointless.

Hmm. Like the pie. Cute.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

There won't be any new information coming

I can get that in writing and notarized? Lol seriously, am I hearing this from second hand info? Did GRRM personally tell you there wont be more info regarding the Purple Wedding?

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Nevets @Hugorfonics

Play along with me for a minute because this is probably crack pottery - it's very early & I just woke up so maybe all my brain cells aren't moving yet - forgive me if this is absurd

BUT

Is it possible that the Tyrell plot was to kill Tyrion & pin it on Joff? It would work right? The whole court saw Joff being a jerk to Tyrion. This is exactly the reason people buy that Tyrion killed Joff right? So maybe their intention was to kill Tyrion & pin it on Joff, killing two birds with one stone. It worked out, but opposite. 

My thing is I think wholeheartedly the pie was poisoned, not the wine because Margaery was drinking the wine too. But if the pie was poisoned how would they ever know Joff would eat Tyrion's pie? They wouldn't. 

Woah! Not bad. In fact, I like it. Penny and her brother totally drew eyes to Tyrion and Joff. And with the king all confused with blood on his hands and all eyes on him and the convulsing dwarf, Sansa woulda been escaped with no eyes on her

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

. But killing Tyrion doesn't help Margaery, it only removes the barrier between them & the key to the north. They would still need to rid themselves of Joff. 

Why? Joff goes to Marge while Wylis gets Sansa the key

1 hour ago, mormont said:

 If Joffrey wanted to kill Tyrion he could have ordered his execution! And who's going to try the king for murder? Who's going to accuse him, call him a liar if he denies it, find him guilty and execute him? Tywin? Hardly.

I doubt it. I mean Dontos was called early ton his grave by Joff, but no one cares about Dontos anyway. Tyrions got a respected name. You cant just go around executing people or Joff woulda been called for Tyrions execution. 

Aerys needed reasons to kill his lords while Joff had to secretly order the death of Bran.

Idk if kings can be found guilty, like fucking Cromwell. I guess its possible, Tyrion and Tywin both told Joff he cant do whatever he wants. Regardless, nice distraction. 

[mormont]

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I see no guarantee that the Strangler was Joffreys meal ticket. There are countless poisons in asoiaf, Strangler doesnt have to be the only purple one (and the timings not that bad, comparing a youth to an old man, yada yada yada)

OK, but now you're just inventing things in the world that are never referenced in the books in order to make a pet theory work, and that's the point at which you might as well admit you're making up your own story, not discussing the one in the books.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The writing, imo, looks better with Tyrion as the target. Who really cared about Joff?

Numerous characters, explicitly. I mean, he was the king.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I can get that in writing and notarized?

Sure, if you like.

The issue hasn't been referenced in two books. It isn't an ongoing plotline. It's closed.

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, mormont said:

OK, but now you're just inventing things in the world that are never referenced in the books in order to make a pet theory work, and that's the point at which you might as well admit you're making up your own story, not discussing the one in the books.

No im not. People who call the Strangler Joffreys demise are assuming that. And even if they weren't, hows the timing between Cressan and Joff so different? They both croak fairly quickly and GRRM told us to put awat the rulers and stop watches for a reason

9 minutes ago, mormont said:

Numerous characters, explicitly. I mean, he was the king.

Those aren't people. Im talking through a literary perspective, you summarized that its bad writing if a protagonist gets more play in the scenario then a secondary character, that doesnt make sense to me

12 minutes ago, mormont said:

Sure, if you like.

Yea please

13 minutes ago, mormont said:

. It isn't an ongoing plotline. It's closed.

Dude. Your a mod. When you say "its closed", that means something.

I ask again, do you have personal info from GRRM about the PW?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

Not in any meaningful sense. It's just the plate that happens to be in front of Tyrion. There's no way to poison that particular piece of pie before it's right in front of him, in full view. At which point you, what, put a crystal in his pie? Pour some sort of solution of the poison that's never been seen before in the text over it? I suppose the latter is conceivable, but just because something is conceivable doesn't mean it should be given any credibility

I don't understand in what other sense the pie could be someone's. The plate has been served to Tyrion, the pie on the plate is meant for Tyrion. 

Idk much about the poison. Maybe a different poison was used? Maybe the pie was hot so it melted? Maybe it was dissolved before being poured on/in the pie? 

2 hours ago, mormont said:

This is absolutely untrue, I'm afraid. I do know what I'm talking about here. Medieval and renaissance feasts are typically served by placing platters of food on each table, from which guests serve themselves. If the tables are particularly large there may be a platter for every half-dozen guests or so. Individual service, with one plate coming from the kitchen intended for a particular guest as in a modern restaurant, is simply not a thing

Fair enough, but that's not the case here right? Tyrion was given a single piece of pie, on a plate, sat in front of him. So it wasn't meant to be shared with anyone else right? 

2 hours ago, mormont said:

You've misunderstood me slightly - I said that the theory requires extra unlikely steps to make it work, not that the mechanical act of putting the poison in the pie does. But that said, as noted, poisoning the pie at the table requires an extra person involved in the plot to insert the poison, an extra step to ensure that the plate in front of Tyrion specifically is poisoned, and an extra step to poison the pie (the creation of a solution of Strangler or some other way to get the crystal into the pie in a way that makes it actually effective).

I'm not suggesting the wine & the pie were poisoned. Just the pie. So Olenna or whoever people think put the poison in the wine put it in the pie instead. So no extra person needed. 

Do we know for certain it was the strangler that was used? And do we know for certain it has to be dissolved in liquid to work? For instance, breaking up the hairnet bead into the pie & then being mixed with someone's saliva may work? I'm just throwing things out there. 

2 hours ago, mormont said:

also requires a motive to poison Tyrion in this way and at this time and place specifically (or the incredible foresight to see that Joff would eat Tyrion's pie). 

Right, well the motive for doing it then would be that they need everyone to see the exchange between Joff & Tyrion so no one can question Joff's motive. Motive for poisoning Tyrion would be so Sansa is free to remarry. 

2 hours ago, mormont said:

It requires explanation for why everyone reacts as if the plot were exactly as it is explained to be, and why the author would include this explanation and then not give any further hints that there is anything unexplained about the matter for two further books

We don't really have everyone's reactions though. We only get what Dontos & LF say. I agree there should be further hints but I haven't looked for them to say they aren't there. Maybe you have. 

2 hours ago, mormont said:

No character considers for a single second, even Tyrion, that he could possibly have been the target. If the reader is supposed to suspect that, then this is bad writing, untypical of the rest of the books. And the idea that you would come up with a plot to frame the king, of all people, for murder is absurd. If Joffrey wanted to kill Tyrion he could have ordered his execution! And who's going to try the king for murder? Who's going to accuse him, call him a liar if he denies it, find him guilty and execute him? Tywin? Hardly.

The Tyrell's of course. The Lannisters need them, at the very least they want to rid Margaery of having to be married to Joff & this could potentially do that. They would be stuck between a rock & a hard place. Either concede that Margaery shouldn't have to be married to him & move on to Tommen, OR lock Joff in jail leaving Margaery & the Tyrell's as defacto rulers of the realm - even if he is ultimately found not guilty. OR lose the Tyrell support altogether. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Woah! Not bad. In fact, I like it. Penny and her brother totally drew eyes to Tyrion and Joff. And with the king all confused with blood on his hands and all eyes on him and the convulsing dwarf, Sansa woulda been escaped with no eyes on her

Yeah! That's what I'm saying. It could've worked, we know that because it did work only the other way around. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why? Joff goes to Marge while Wylis gets Sansa the key

Well, I meant killing Tyrion alone doesn't help her. In this scenario it needed to be at the feast, in front of a lot of people, in order for Joff to be blamed, because him being blamed for murder does help rid Margaery of him. 

[Seams]

It's just plain silly to assert that discussion of Joffrey's death is "dry and pointless." This is a key moment in the series and GRRM deliberately gave us complex and elusive details with numerous points of view. People can leave the forum if they feel there is nothing to discuss.

From a literary analysis (symbolism) perspective, there are many points I have not seen discussed. I am quite certain that GRRM uses parallels from legends, history and other story arcs to provide clues about apparent mysteries in the plot. These parallels could help us sort out Joffrey's death.

1) The Red Wedding.

And I want Robb Stark's head too. Write to Lord Frey and tell him. The king commands. I'm going to have it served to Sansa at my wedding feast.

(ASoS, Chap. 53, Tyrion VI)

"Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses....

"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think."

(ASoS, Chap. 59, Sansa IV)

Joffrey is interested in beheading Starks. He doesn't just want them beheaded, though, he wants to possess Robb Stark's head. His goal is to make Sansa eat Robb's head.

Who was really responsible for beheading Robb and who now has his head? Tywin and Walder, with the direct agency of Roose Bolton. Is Joffrey parallel to one of these characters?

Does our clue come from Joffrey's desire to "have" Robb's head? Like Robb, Joffrey agreed to marry one person but he married another. Is Joffrey parallel to Robb? That seems like a good fit, since both die at wedding feasts. What more can we infer about Joffrey and his death by looking at Robb?

There are other details, such as Lady Olenna sarcastically wishing to hear the song, "The Rains of Castamere" shortly before Joffrey's death. Is she a parallel for Walder Frey?

In an old post, I theorized that Jinglebell was a symbolic stand-in for Lord Walder. Catelyn manages to kill him just before she is killed. This "killing the killer" symbolic double death becomes important further down in this post.

Also important to keep in mind: Catelyn was supposed to be kept as a hostage. Instead, she "died" which, in a crazy unexpected way, allowed her to escape and seek revenge on Freys and (we expect) Boltons and Lannisters.

2) Single combat, jousting and champions

The mummer jousting by Penny and Groat precedes Joffrey's death. We know from @sweetsunray's excellent analysis years ago that jousting is a symbolic form of the "Game" of thrones, providing clues about alliances and foreshadowing who will ascend toward the Iron Throne.

But Penny and Groat may swap pig and dog mounts during the match. We find out later that their shields have been painted and repainted numerous times - they may show stag and wolf at the wedding feast, but those sigils are only one layer among many dozens of others. One of the jousters loses his head during the performance but it turns out the head was a melon and the jouster is still alive. There's that beheading motif again. My interpretation of the repainted shields, swapped mounts and uncertainty about who was yielding to whom is that this mummer jousting is supposed to be a generic form of the Game of Thrones, not necessarily the specific conflict between Lannisters or Baratheons and Starks.

At the end of the jousting match, Joffrey asks Tyrion to be his champion. This is significant because I think it tells us to look at another couple or three parallels: Tyrion uses Bronn as a champion at The Eyrie and will soon employ Oberyn Martell as a champion against Gregor Clegane. Tyrion famously declines to serve as Joffrey's champion; we will see Bronn decline to serve as Tyrion's champion against the Mountain. The third parallel? Meera's allegorical description of the feast at Harrenhal includes the wolf maid throwing wine on the young wolf (Joffrey also throws wine on Tyrion at the wedding feast) - we assume these characters are Lyanna and Benjen Stark. Those two are closely associated with the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the anonymous champion who represents Howland Reed in the Harrenhal jousting.

What are the possible parallels here? If Tyrion is the champion Joff sought but could not have, is Tyrion parallel to Bronn? Later, Cersei seeks Jaime as champion for her trial by combat but he burns her letter and does not rush to her side. Is Tyrion parallel to Jaime? We know that Tyrion will eventually join Penny in the jousting act, making him a parallel for Groat. After the wedding feast, Groat dies because Cersei has offered a reward for Tyrion's head (another Groat / Tyrion parallel). Ambitious scammers bring her dwarf heads from around the world, including the head of Groat. This ties back to the mummer jousting with the melon head but also foreshadows the beheading of Gregor Clegane, whose skull (we believe) is sent to the Martells in Dorne.

But sorting out Joffrey's death is our goal here. How does Joffrey's unfulfilled desire for Robb Stark's severed head relate to Cersei's unfulfilled desire for Tyrion's head and House Martell's apparently fulfilled desire for Gregor Clegane's head? (But we know that Ser Gregor is reborn as Ser Robert Strong, so the Martell victory on this point may be Pyrrhic even if the real skull was sent to them.)

An important point in sorting out Joffrey's murder is that Ser Gregor and Oberyn both, essentially, die as a result of the single combat trial. (I think this is part of the "killing the killers" situation with Catelyn and Jinglebell/Lord Walder that I mentioned, above.) One could argue that this means Tyrion was both innocent and guilty of Joffrey's murder, if that is the point of the match. Neither one is killed by the obvious weapons, as one would expect in such a match - Ser Gregor slowly succumbs to secret, special poison that Oberyn has poured on his spear; Oberyn dies from having his head smashed and his eyes popped out by Ser Gregor's bare hands. I'm not sure, but it could be that these unexpected weapons are hints for us to look for less obvious methods used to kill Joffrey, aside from the wine and pie that seem to be the ostensible agents of his death.

A note on wordplay: I suspect GRRM wants us to connect "champion" and "champignon," the French word for mushroom. In ASOIAF, mushrooms are sometimes associated with poison: Ilyrio allows Tyrion to decide whether to eat some mushrooms that look risky; Tyrion gathers mushrooms from a path at Ilyrio's manse, hides them in his boot, later using them to speed Nurse, the slaver's assistant, to death by flux. If Joffrey wants Tyrion to be his champion / champignon, and Joffrey dies by ingesting poison, what does it mean that we see poison associated with Tyrion and with Tyrion's champion, Oberyn Martell?

I know, it's hella complicated. Trying to sort it out is like having Gregor Clegane bang your head against a stone. But that may underscore my point that there is still plenty to discuss about Joffrey's death.

3) Green and brown.

I am fairly early in thinking about a Green and Brown motif GRRM has woven through the series. I believe Gregor Clegane is a green character, probably traced back to Garth Greenhands. The desire to control Ser Gregor or to possess his head symbolizes a desire to control the power of Garth and the Gardener Kings. The Tyrells are obviously Lords of Highgarden, but they don't quite have the legitimacy they would like to have. Marrying the Lannisters, who command Ser Gregor, would give them that last bit of green power that they covet.

The Tyrells have done their best to accumulate their own green, however. Renly was strongly associated with green because of his green armor. He used a green cloak when he married Margaery, in spite of the gold Baratheon sigil. Renly's green armor was taken up by Ser Garlan Tyrell after Renly's death. Garlan also slays Ser Guyard Morrigen, the green member of Renly's Rainbow Guard. I have speculated that ASOIAF characters take on some of the "powers" of the people they kill or wound.

Bronn is a brown character. My most recent insight about Bronn and his connection with Joffrey's feast / death is that Bronn helped Tyrion turn Symon Silver Tongue into bowls of brown. Symon wanted to sing at Joffrey's wedding but Cersei controlled the singers just as she controlled the menu. Tyrion didn't want Symon to sing because he had a song that revealed Tyrion's illicit love for Shea.

But I hear you say that bowls of brown were not served at the wedding, and Symon did not sing, so what's the connection?

Remember when Arya was trying to keep a low profile and hide in Flea Bottom? She caught a pigeon and snapped its neck, hoping to trade the pigeon meat to a pot shop so she could get a bowl of brown. Pigeon meat is associated with bowls of brown. But Arya lost the pigeon before she could swap it for food: it fell from her belt. Significant detail: in ASOIAF, people tuck blades and letters into their belts. Given the wordplay on sword / words, blades and letters could be two sides of the same coin. Is Arya's pigeon a symbolic blade or letter? If you believe that Joffrey was killed by ingesting pigeon pie, you might lean toward the idea of pigeon as a weapon. Because Arya dropped the pigeon, is GRRM hinting that someone else picked it up and sold it to a pot shop? If we can trace the lost pigeon, will that help to solve the mystery of Joffrey's death?

Also on the pigeon pie symbolism: way back when he helped Ned meet Catelyn at the brothel, Littlefinger told them that Varys would not want a pie opened because then the birds would begin to sing. I think this brings us back to Symon Silver Tongue. If he was turned into meat for bowls of brown, he is a symbolic pigeon. Joffrey and Margaery cut open a ceremonial pie, releasing live pigeons, just before Joffrey died. Symon is reborn. No wonder Shae wanted to see the pie cutting: Symon's song is all about her relationship with Tyrion.

There is more to this. Sandor Clegane's personal sigil is green and brown. Until shortly before the wedding feast, Sandor was loyal to Joffrey. At the Battle of the Blackwater, Sandor departs so Joffrey is suddenly left without the balanced brown and green sigil at his side. However, Sansa wears green and brown clothing she has selected and she puts on herself without the help of a maid when she escapes from King's Landing. We also know that Sansa and Sandor bonded in secret during the Battle of the Blackwater just as Sandor departs Joffrey's service. Does Sansa now have the unified green and brown on her side?

The Lannisters are associated with brown, I realized in a recent series of posts, because of Jaime's shit for honor and Tywin's rumored ability to shit gold. Tyrion gets covered in pig shit when he shares a cabin with Penny. But a number of characters find themselves covered in dirt (Dick Crabb) or eating dirt (Arya escaping from Amory Lorch) or with dirt in his visor (Tyrion at the Battle of the Green Fork). Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield - who never bathes or drinks water - is my best source for brown symbolism, but I haven't quite cracked the code yet.

In addition to those three avenues for literary analysis, I suspect there is further wordplay on "pig" and "pigeon." Boars are usually present at the deaths of kings. (Robert killed by a boar; boar served at the Frey Red Wedding; Boroq and his skinchanged boar show up at Castle Black shortly before Jon's "death." Note the boar / Robb wordplay associated with each of those examples.) The mummer jousters bring Pretty Pig into Joffrey's feast. Does that count as the boar for his death? Or is the pigeon meat in the pie a stand-in for the boar/pig necessary for Joffrey's death?

Gotta wonder, too, about chamPIGnon and PIGeon pie along with the larger pig motif.

And I still haven't pinned down how PETYR Baelish might be linked to PRETTY pig. Given Petyr's apparent role in hiring the mummer jousters for Joffrey's feast, however, I suspect there is a connection.

I also suspect that Ser Ilyn Payne is a symbolic Lannister direwolf. At the feast, he hands Joffrey a sword for cutting the pie. If Joffrey is (nominally) a Baratheon, and Ser Ilyn is a symbolic direwolf, what is the parallel here? I would guess the death of the mother direwolf with an antler in her throat and the birth of the direwolf pups. In the description of Joffrey's death, there is a moment that is described as a man trying to breathe through a reed. (Correction: I think GRRM says that it appears that Joffrey is trying to suck up a river through a reed.) Until going back to check a detail for another recent thread, I had thought that reeds would be associated with helping people to breathe. Turns out, they are associated with choking. If you accept a wordplay link between deer and reed, you might accept that Ser Ilyn killing the scion of the deer sigil is payback for the deer antler that killed the mother direwolf way back in Bran's first POV. And this might also explain why the leading house in the area known as The Neck is House Reed. 

This goes on and on. Just one more and then I have to walk the dogs.

I suspect the fool Moonboy is a symbolic rebirth for Joffrey. Catelyn killed the Frey fool at a wedding feast, symbolically or foreshadowingly showing us the fate of Lord Walder Frey. Joffrey dies at his wedding feast, but his fool lives on.

 

[Nevets]

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There certainly is a reason to take Tyrion out at the feast. The Tyrell's want to take Sansa, LF wants to take Sansa - Tyrion being married to her hinders both things & if they wanted the murder pinned on Joff the motive would have to be presented in front of this many people for it to stick, he is the King after all. 

The problem with this is that the plot was set in motion in the run up to the Battle of Blackwater.   At that time the Tyrells had no reason to want Tyrion dead, and nobody had any reason to expect Sansa to marry Tyrion.

By the way, although Margaery was also drinking the wine, she could receive a signal not to once it was poisoned.  If necessary, she could simply spill it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The problem with this is that the plot was set in motion in the run up to the Battle of Blackwater.   At that time the Tyrells had no reason to want Tyrion dead, and nobody had any reason to expect Sansa to marry Tyrion.

By the way, although Margaery was also drinking the wine, she could receive a signal not to once it was poisoned.  If necessary, she could simply spill it.

What part of the plot specifically was in motion at that time? Like the plot to whisk Sansa away? Because the poisoning could have been added after she got married. 

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There certainly is a reason to take Tyrion out at the feast. The Tyrell's want to take Sansa, LF wants to take Sansa - Tyrion being married to her hinders both things & if they wanted the murder pinned on Joff the motive would have to be presented in front of this many people for it to stick, he is the King after all. 

Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa." No need to target Tyrion, his big mouth, Cersei's paranoia and the ugly exchange with Joffrey did him away even more safely that the strangler would, or at least LF thought it was safe to assume. He doesn't even pause to ponder over Sansa's information that Tyrion was seized and blamed for the poisoning. What was Taena Merryweather's motive for claiming to have seen something we know 100% never happened?

 

5 hours ago, mormont said:

This is absolutely untrue, I'm afraid. I do know what I'm talking about here. Medieval and renaissance feasts are typically served by placing platters of food on each table, from which guests serve themselves. If the tables are particularly large there may be a platter for every half-dozen guests or so. Individual service, with one plate coming from the kitchen intended for a particular guest as in a modern restaurant, is simply not a thing.

And this is perfectly in accord with the way GRRM describes serving food, I did a search for this once, for this particular topic. Huge common platters, from which people either help themselves, or server do it for them. Right on the table, in front of everyone.

 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I see no guarantee that the Strangler was Joffreys meal ticket. There are countless poisons in asoiaf, Strangler doesnt have to be the only purple one (and the timings not that bad, comparing a youth to an old man, yada yada yada)

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-purple-wedding-george-rr-martin-explains-thinking-behind-king-joffreys-demise-9262045.html

"the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking"

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Who really cared about Joff?

Everyone who wanted a comeuppance for The Ned.

 

[Ygrain]

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Because the poisoning could have been added after she got married. 

The poisoning must have been agreed on before she was given the "magical" hairnet, and that she was given way before she had to marry Tyrion. The Tyrells had been aware of Joffrey's character from the very get go, all they needed from Sansa was a confirmation that they were not being duped into an unnecessary crime (well, they were being duped, but about something else).

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa." No need to target Tyrion, his big mouth, Cersei's paranoia and the ugly exchange with Joffrey did him away even more safely that the strangler would, or at least LF thought it was safe to assume. He doesn't even pause to ponder over Sansa's information that Tyrion was seized and blamed for the poisoning. What was Taena Merryweather's motive for claiming to have seen something we know 100% never happened?

What did Taena claim? I don't recall. 

Yeah, I mean this did the trick on Tyrion I just don't understand why they would risk poisoning the wine Margaery was drinking also. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And this is perfectly in accord with the way GRRM describes serving food, I did a search for this once, for this particular topic. Huge common platters, from which people either help themselves, or server do it for them. Right on the table, in front of everyone.

Right, but at this point Tyrion has his own plate, with his own piece of pie on it. 

57 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The poisoning must have been agreed on before she was given the "magical" hairnet, and that she was given way before she had to marry Tyrion. The Tyrells had been aware of Joffrey's character from the very get go, all they needed from Sansa was a confirmation that they were not being duped into an unnecessary crime (well, they were being duped, but about something else).

Hmm. I see. Well, I'm not married to any particular theory, just like to bat them around a little. The thing that bothers me about the common theory is that Margaery was drinking the wine too. I haven't really seen a satisfactory answer for that (IMO) and if it wasn't the wine, it had to be the pie. 

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

No im not.

No other poison with the same effects as Strangler is ever mentioned in the books, so I'm afraid that yes, you are inventing it.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

GRRM told us to put awat the rulers and stop watches for a reason

Not for that reason: it was specifically to do with travel.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dude. Your a mod. When you say "its closed", that means something.

No, no. If I say

Quote

[mod] It's closed [/mod]

That means something. No tags means it's just an opinion as a member of the forums, which moderators also are.

But on that point, I've been on the forums for nearly seventeen years. I've seen and participated in iterations of this discussion since before AFFC was published. So when someone, moderator or not, who has that experience says they think it's a closed issue, at the very least you should assume their opinion is pretty substantially founded, not a knee-jerk reaction.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I ask again, do you have personal info from GRRM about the PW?

If I did, it would be on SSM.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't understand in what other sense the pie could be someone's. The plate has been served to Tyrion, the pie on the plate is meant for Tyrion. 

The plate has not been served to Tyrion. Again, that isn't how medieval feasts are served.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk much about the poison. Maybe a different poison was used? Maybe the pie was hot so it melted? Maybe it was dissolved before being poured on/in the pie? 

Maybe it was in the wine.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Fair enough, but that's not the case here right? Tyrion was given a single piece of pie, on a plate, sat in front of him. So it wasn't meant to be shared with anyone else right? 

I don't have the text in front of me, but from memory I don't think we're told that.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not suggesting the wine & the pie were poisoned. Just the pie. So Olenna or whoever people think put the poison in the wine put it in the pie instead. So no extra person needed. 

The difference is that the usual suspects all have direct access to the wine for most of the feast, but don't have much access to the pie, if any. So you do need an additional person here.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, well the motive for doing it then would be that they need everyone to see the exchange between Joff & Tyrion so no one can question Joff's motive. Motive for poisoning Tyrion would be so Sansa is free to remarry. 

Everyone already knows Joff has a motive. He's made his dislike of Tyrion clear. Again, it makes no sense for Joffrey to poison Tyrion at the feast, because he could simply have him executed.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The Tyrell's of course. The Lannisters need them, at the very least they want to rid Margaery of having to be married to Joff & this could potentially do that. They would be stuck between a rock & a hard place. Either concede that Margaery shouldn't have to be married to him & move on to Tommen, OR lock Joff in jail leaving Margaery & the Tyrell's as defacto rulers of the realm - even if he is ultimately found not guilty. OR lose the Tyrell support altogether.

Yeah, no. Joff is the king. He's not going to jail. He owns the jail. He is the justice system, embodied. I'm sorry, but this is just ludicrous as a plan, start to finish. You can't get rid of a monarch by framing them for murder. 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

It's just plain silly to assert that discussion of Joffrey's death is "dry and pointless."

Let me know when someone does that.

Hashing over ways in which the explanation could be other than the one provided in the books is what I think is pointless. But YMMV.

3 hours ago, Seams said:

People can leave the forum if they feel there is nothing to discuss.

Oh, there's volumes to discuss!

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

The plate has not been served to Tyrion. Again, that isn't how medieval feasts are served

I'll have to reread because I thought he had the plate in front of him with a single piece of pie on it. The servers don't dole out single pieces of pie to everyone? 

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

Maybe it was in the wine

Sure, maybe. 

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

don't have the text in front of me, but from memory I don't think we're told that.

I'll see if I can find it because that would certainly change my mind. 

5 minutes ago, mormont said:

The difference is that the usual suspects all have direct access to the wine for most of the feast, but don't have much access to the pie, if any. So you do need an additional person here

Well, if the single piece of pie is on a plate in front of Tyrion the usual suspects would have access to it to, albeit not for the whole feast. If not then I agree. 

6 minutes ago, mormont said:

Everyone already knows Joff has a motive. He's made his dislike of Tyrion clear. Again, it makes no sense for Joffrey to poison Tyrion at the feast, because he could simply have him executed

He can't just have him executed for no reason though. Well, I mean he can, but after the fiasco caused by him ordering Ned's death I would think Tywin would step in here & at least give him some resemblance of a trial. 

7 minutes ago, mormont said:

Yeah, no. Joff is the king. He's not going to jail. He owns the jail. He is the justice system, embodied. I'm sorry, but this is just ludicrous as a plan, start to finish. You can't get rid of a monarch by framing them for murder

Lol alright. I'm not necessarily saying he would be executed for it, or maybe not even thrown in the dungeons but if the Tyrell's were to insist something be done in order for their sweet Margaery to not be married to a suspected murderer, the Lannisters need them enough that they may have no choice but to oblige. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Quote

whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture ofbeef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey

Quote

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it witha spoon of lemon cream.

So, it was one slice, placed in front of Tyrion. It's his piece of pie.

@mormont