Purple Wedding, Finally Solved.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I argue the facts; the real ones, not the make-believe.

[kissdbyfire]

This is my first ever “dear John” letter, be kind. 

Dear John [Suburbs]

I’m sorry, but I don’t think we should stay together we should continue discussing this topic. [Reason that you believe that you cannot be together any more.] We have covered everything pertaining to the Purple Wedding, and it has become clear at this point that we will never agree on this subject. This really has nothing to do with you. Our time together has been wonderful. [Mention a way that they have contributed to you, or a fond memory about the relationship.] It was fun for a while, but now it’s time to move on.  I hope that you will be able to find someone who is perfect for you can agree w/ your ideas. I I hope that you can forgive me. I would still like to remain friends, if possible.

Sincerely,

[Your Name] KbF 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I've done this dance with Mr. Suburbia many times so I have stayed out of the pointless back and forth on this one. But I did have one question for you @John Suburbs which I don't believe we addressed in our many other discussions on this topic.

How do you reconcile the last words of Sansa's last chapter of Clash with your theory of Tyrion as the target of the poison?

For context, this is when Dontos gives her the hairnet. 

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"Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It's magic, you see. It's justice you hold. It's vengeance for your father." Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. "It's home."

Being the attentive reader you are, I'm sure you know the last words of a book are significant. I know there are still chapters after this, but this is the end of Sansa's story.

Dontos (George) tells Sansa (the reader) the hairnet is vengeance for Ned. Then we do not hear from Sansa until Clash. The reader is left knowing this hairnet has something to do with vengeance for Ned. Later we will learn it will be used to kill the kid who gave the order. There is no reason it would be to kill Tyrion at this point. He is expected to die on his deathbed following the Battle on the Blackwater when the hairnet is given (another major flaw in your theory, but we'll leave that alone for now).

I suppose you could try to argue that George is pulling a 'gotcha' here in the last paragraph of Sansa's book. But I would challenge you to find another character's final chapter paragraph where George pulls a 'gotcha'. I'll save you the time. There aren't any. Catelyn's last chapter in Clash is a mystery, not a 'gotcha', as the reader is not told what happens but us left wondering. The reader may think something, but does not know. In Sansa's final chapter the reader is told what the hairnet is (vengeance).

And the end of the paragraph, 'It's home' will eventually happen for Sansa in the next two books.

Maybe you could argue that LF told Dontos to say this to Sansa. But this completely undermines the brilliance of this final paragraph and would still be a 'gotcha' in the last paragraph of a storyline in a book, which George does not do. 

If we look at the meta side of this, it is great writing by George. We know he writes for the re read. The re reader sees this in Sansa's last chapter, finishes the chapter and says, "It was right there in the previous book!" How cheap would this be if your theory is correct?

 

[Ygrain]

Not to mention that if Tyrion was the target instead of Joffrey, GRRM's interviews pondering the morality of a preemptive strike aka killing Hitler before he could do harm etc. and justification of Olenna's choice become kinda pointless. - But since this has already been dances too, Johnny, please don't respond.

[Mithras]

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Martin: I don’t know how it comes across in the show, because I haven’t actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey’s death was to make it look like an accident — someone’s out celebrating, they haven’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it’s very serious. I based it a little on the death of Eustace, the son of King Stephen of England. Stephen had usurped the crown from his cousin, the empress Maude, and they fought a long civil war and the anarchy and the war would be passed down to second generation, because Maude had a son and Henry and Stephen had a son. But Eustace choked to death at a feast. People are still debating a thousand of years later: Did he choke to death or was he poisoned? Because by removing Eustace, it brought about a peace that ended the English civil war. Eustace’s death was accepted [as accidental], and I think that’s what the murderers here were hoping for — the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something. But what they didn’t count on, was Cersei’s immediate assumption that this was murder. Cersei wasn’t fooled by this for a second. She doesn’t believe that it was an accidental death. You saw the scene filmed, does it come across as he could possibly be just choking or is it very clear he’s been poisoned?

I am sorry but you failed Mr Martin.

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII

"You do look quite exquisite, child," Lady Olenna Tyrell told Sansa when she tottered up to them in a cloth-of-gold gown that must have weighed more than she did. "The wind has been at your hair, though." The little old woman reached up and fussed at the loose strands, tucking them back into place and straightening Sansa's hair net. "I was very sorry to hear about your losses," she said as she tugged and fiddled. "Your brother was a terrible traitor, I know, but if we start killing men at weddings they'll be even more frightened of marriage than they are presently. There, that's better." Lady Olenna smiled. "I am pleased to say I shall be leaving for Highgarden the day after next. I have had quite enough of this smelly city, thank you. Perhaps you would like to accompany me for a little visit, whilst the men are off having their war? I shall miss my Margaery so dreadfully, and all her lovely ladies. Your company would be such sweet solace."

"You are too kind, my lady," said Sansa, "but my place is with my lord husband."

Lady Olenna gave Tyrion a wrinkled, toothless smile. "Oh? Forgive a silly old woman, my lord, I did not mean to steal your lovely wife. I assumed you would be off leading a Lannister host against some wicked foe."

 

From the way it is written, it seems highly probable that Olenna somehow knew Tyrion was going to be incriminated for regicide and Sansa would be free for taking after Tyrion’s execution. That is why she wanted to grab Sansa first and grab her right this time. This strongly rules out the accidental choking scenario. Not to mention, LF went out of his way to intice the antagonism between Joffrey and Tyrion visibly during the wedding, such as the show with the dwarfs. Why did he, as one of the murderers, did that if the intention was to make it look like an accident per GRRM?

I think instead of taking the text as sacred and seeking the error on ourselves, it is past time we look at the text more critically and call it a failed execution when it is one. Not only this but also as I mentioned earlier, the characterization of Littlefinger does not allow a coopereation between him and the Tyrells for this regicide.

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"Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean."

This is basically LF’s MO (regardless of how much he is able to keep his hands clean). A direct cooperation with the Tyrells on the murder of the king in his own wedding is not a clean hands policy.

Now the TV series complicates the things because the LF in the show is a completely different animal than the LF in the books even admitted by GRRM himself. According to George R. R. Martin, for the book character, "Everybody trusts him because he seems powerless, and he's very friendly, and he's very helpful."

All the Lords underestimate him because he has no army and he lacks an important name. That is why Tywin could easily give him Harrenhal; or appoint him as the de facto ruler of the Vale because he thought that he could easily take it all back from him when he wishes. LF is always witty and always helpful. He does not pose threat to anyone. He keeps his hands clean.

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"I am of the king's council, yet not the king's blood, so I would make a poor hostage. I knew Ser Loras passing well when he was here at court, and gave him no cause to mislike me. Mace Tyrell bears me no enmity that I know of, and I flatter myself that I am not unskilled in negotiation."

He has us. Tyrion did not trust Petyr Baelish, nor did he want the man out of his sight, yet what other choice was left him?

 

This is how LF swayed the Small Council to send him to deal with the Tyrells. LF arranged the Joffrey-Marg wedding in this mission. Speaking of which, this is how LF dealt with the Tyrells, in his own words.

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"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

 

Notice how LF “plays the game.” LF did not say that Joff was a monster. To keep his façade as a loyal and harmless businessman, he praised Joffrey. But he fed the information through the gossip of servants. In fact, him suggesting anything directly to the Tyrells would be too crude because the Tyrells (like most of the nobility) obviously do not consider him noble enough to be their equals. This has always been the main weapon of LF. The high lords underestimated him and became blind to the danger he posed.

Now, how can we expect the Tyrells to cooperate with LF on a plan to kill the king in his own wedding? Imagine the things Tyrells could have lost if things went wrong. Their claim to Highgarden has always been shaky. On the other hand, LF’s name or wealth is nowhere close enough to the Tyrells. If any two parties are to get involved in a highly dangerous plan, they have to trust each other completely. To build the necessary trust, each of them must have proportionate assets that might be lost if the agreement is betrayed. LF is no equal to the Tyrells in terms of wealth and nobility. So, the Tyrells could not trust him enough to be involved in such a plan with him.

[Ygrain]

59 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Now, how can we expect the Tyrells to cooperate with LF on a plan to kill the king in his own wedding?

And has it been stated anywhere that they cooperated? We know that LF manipulated the Tyrells; isn't it possible that someone close to Olenna was in his pocket and the whole "take the poison from Sansa's hairnet" thing was arranged without Olenna knowing she was actually dealing with LF?

[Mithras]

50 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And has it been stated anywhere that they cooperated? We know that LF manipulated the Tyrells; isn't it possible that someone close to Olenna was in his pocket and the whole "take the poison from Sansa's hairnet" thing was arranged without Olenna knowing she was actually dealing with LF?

That this the least problematic solution that I defended many times. But still that needs a good explanation somewhere in the next books because currently it is impossible to piece together from the published text how this manipulation really happened. Whereas many readers in this thread seem to think that the solution to this mystery complete and we should move on.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Mithras said:

That this the least problematic solution that I defended many times. But still that needs a good explanation somewhere in the next books because currently it is impossible to piece together from the published text how this manipulation really happened. Whereas many readers in this thread seem to think that the solution to this mystery complete and we should move on.

Agreed - there are hows and whys that need further explanations. I am quite confident that the reveal is coming, though, just like it did with Jon Arryn.

- Oh, another option: that LF had had some dealings with the Tyrells prior, that we don't know of. If it was some shady business, it would explain why Olenna might be willing to conspire with him.

[John Suburbs]

On 4/10/2020 at 10:46 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I've done this dance with Mr. Suburbia many times so I have stayed out of the pointless back and forth on this one. But I did have one question for you @John Suburbs which I don't believe we addressed in our many other discussions on this topic.

How do you reconcile the last words of Sansa's last chapter of Clash with your theory of Tyrion as the target of the poison?

For context, this is when Dontos gives her the hairnet. 

Being the attentive reader you are, I'm sure you know the last words of a book are significant. I know there are still chapters after this, but this is the end of Sansa's story.

Dontos (George) tells Sansa (the reader) the hairnet is vengeance for Ned. Then we do not hear from Sansa until Clash. The reader is left knowing this hairnet has something to do with vengeance for Ned. Later we will learn it will be used to kill the kid who gave the order. There is no reason it would be to kill Tyrion at this point. He is expected to die on his deathbed following the Battle on the Blackwater when the hairnet is given (another major flaw in your theory, but we'll leave that alone for now).

I suppose you could try to argue that George is pulling a 'gotcha' here in the last paragraph of Sansa's book. But I would challenge you to find another character's final chapter paragraph where George pulls a 'gotcha'. I'll save you the time. There aren't any. Catelyn's last chapter in Clash is a mystery, not a 'gotcha', as the reader is not told what happens but us left wondering. The reader may think something, but does not know. In Sansa's final chapter the reader is told what the hairnet is (vengeance).

And the end of the paragraph, 'It's home' will eventually happen for Sansa in the next two books.

Maybe you could argue that LF told Dontos to say this to Sansa. But this completely undermines the brilliance of this final paragraph and would still be a 'gotcha' in the last paragraph of a storyline in a book, which George does not do. 

If we look at the meta side of this, it is great writing by George. We know he writes for the re read. The re reader sees this in Sansa's last chapter, finishes the chapter and says, "It was right there in the previous book!" How cheap would this be if your theory is correct?

 

Yes, at this point Tyrion is expected to die, or believed to be dead already. There is no reason to think he was the target. So Joffrey may have been the potential target at this point, or Cersei, or Tywin, but it is going to be some Lannister. Maybe even Kevan or Lancel. All of this counts as vengeance for Ned. A Lannister is a Lannister, after all. Just as Karstark seeks vengeance for his sons, killed by the Kingslayer, on the sons of Kevan and Gemma.

Plus, the idea that Littlefinger would confide the full plan from start to finish with drunken, unreliable Dontos is absurd.

A final chapter where George pulls a gotcha? Quite a few of them, actually:

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He shoved her into a doorway, thrust dirty fingers through her hair, and gave it a twist, yanking her head back. "-- not a smart boy, that what you mean to say?"

He had a knife in his other hand.

As the blade flashed toward her face, Arya threw herself backward, kicking wildly, wrenching her head from side to side, but he had her by the hair, so strong, she could feel her scalp tearing, and on her lips the taste of tears.

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The last thing Theon Greyjoy saw was Smiler, kicking free of the burning stables with his mane ablaze, screaming, rearing . . .

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Where the river broadened out into the Blackwater Bay, the boom stretched taught, a bare two or three feet above the water. Already a dozen galleys had crashed into it, and the current was pushing others against them. Almost all were aflame, and the rest soon would be. Davos could make out the striped hulls of Salladhor Saan's ships beyond, but he knew he would never reach them. A wall of red-hot steel, blazing wood, and swirling green flame stretched before him. The mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell.

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Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."

"No, that wasn't it. Jaime Lannister upended the flagon. A trickle ran down onto his face, bright as blood. "Snow, that was the one. Such a white name . . . like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths."

Brienne pushed open the door and stepped inside the cell. "You called, my lady?"

"Give me your sword." Catelyn held out her hand.

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The Hound watched her saddle Craven through eyes bight with fever. Not once did he attempt to rise and stop her. But when she mounted, he said, "A real wolf would finish a wounded animal."

Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they'll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. "You shouldn't have hit me with an axe," she said. "You should have saved my mother." She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

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Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word.

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Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold . . .

Every single book, in fact, ends with a gotcha where it appears a character has died but they pop up again in the next novel, or two.

So no, one drunken word from a drunken, unreliable speaker does not trump the mounting of physical facts, logistical facts, motivational facts and all the other facts that disprove the wine but confirm the pie.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

47 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, at this point Tyrion is expected to die, or believed to be dead already. There is no reason to think he was the target. So Joffrey may have been the potential target at this point, or Cersei, or Tywin, but it is going to be some Lannister. Maybe even Kevan or Lancel. All of this counts as vengeance for Ned. A Lannister is a Lannister, after all. Just as Karstark seeks vengeance for his sons, killed by the Kingslayer, on the sons of Kevan and Gemma.

I am glad you are able to accept that Tyrion was expected to die at this point. This would mean he would not be expected to be at Joff's wedding then, right? Yet we know that is the day the killing is going to happen. And you still cling to an idea that Tyrion was the target? This would mean that LF pulls an audible on this whole thing with zero textual evidence or clues. This would also mean that George set the reader up with worthless foreshadowing from the previous book. Would he do that? No.

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Ser Dontos planted a slobbery kiss on her ear. “Be brave. I swore to see you home, and now I can. The day has been chosen.”

“When?” Sansa asked. “When will we go?”

“The night of Joffrey’s wedding. After the feast. All the necessary arrangements have been made. The Red Keep will be full of strangers. Half the court will be drunk and the other half will be helping Joffrey bed his bride. For a little while, you will be forgotten, and the confusion will be our friend.”

“The wedding won’t be for a moon’s turn yet. Margaery Tyrell is at Highgarden, they’ve only now sent for her.”

 “You’ve waited so long, be patient awhile longer. Here, I have something for you.” Ser Dontos fumbled in his pouch and drew out a silvery spiderweb, dangling it between his thick fingers.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Every single book, in fact, ends with a gotcha where it appears a character has died but they pop up again in the next novel, or two.

No. George is not saying anything definitely in your examples. They are cliffhangers. He is not blatantly lying to the reader. The closest one is Theon. But really, Theon does symbolically die in that chapter, so it works. Also, George uses ellipses there.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

So no, one drunken word from a drunken, unreliable speaker does not trump the mounting of physical facts, logistical facts, motivational facts and all the other facts that disprove the wine but confirm the pie.

Dontos' alcoholism has nothing to do with this. This is George talking to the reader. It is foreshadowing.

I'm not going to reply anymore. I believe you discuss this topic disingenuously. It is not productive. I was curious what your response would be, and now I found out. That's enough for me.

 

[Seams]

20 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The Red Keep will be full of strangers.

One of those wonderful details that suddenly clicks after many re-reads. This may be confirmation of the "multiple killers" theory of Joffrey's death - the Stranger is a sort of grim reaper figure among the gods of the Seven. If the Red Keep is full of strangers, lots of death dealers are wandering the castle.

Ser Dontos is a big fan of Renly (we learn after the Battle of the Blackwater) and Renly was one of the three "strangers" introduced to us in the first Sansa POV in AGoT: Renly, Ser Barristan and Ser Ilyn. Maybe Ser Dontos has a special relationship with The Stranger and plays a role in advancing the groundwork necessary for an important death.

We know that Renly has a presence at Joffrey's wedding feast because of the song about Renly making a last trip to endorse Joffrey as the true king and to say goodbye to Margaery. Ser Garlan, who wore Renly's armor at the Blackwater, is also front and center at Joffrey's feast. The Dontos foreshadowing provides weight to the theory that Ser Garlan has something to do with Joffrey's death: as the heir to Renly's armor, Ser Garlan may also take on the identity of The Stranger.

I'm also conscious that Ser Dontos serves as Tyrion's "other half" when it comes to his marriage to Sansa. Remember that the Half-man could not reach Sansa's shoulders to put the cloak around her, a step necessary for completing the marriage ceremony. Ser Dontos got down on all fours and Tyrion stepped on his back to finish the cloak gesture, so Dontos symbolically "completes" the Half-man at that critical moment.

It's also significant that Dontos puts a silvery spiderweb in Sansa's hand. Silver is the metal on a Maester's chain that represents both healing and death. The spiderweb is associated with Rohanne Webber of the Dunk & Egg stories. She is famous for outliving her many husbands and children. She also sews a man into a sack with some rocks and throws him in a moat. I think Dontos is not just handing the hair net to Sansa to make her a passive drug mule; I think he is empowering her as a "bride of the Stranger" in a way she does not fully understand.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I am glad you are able to accept that Tyrion was expected to die at this point. This would mean he would not be expected to be at Joff's wedding then, right? Yet we know that is the day the killing is going to happen. And you still cling to an idea that Tyrion was the target? This would mean that LF pulls an audible on this whole thing with zero textual evidence or clues. This would also mean that George set the reader up with worthless foreshadowing from the previous book. Would he do that? No.

 

No. George is not saying anything definitely in your examples. They are cliffhangers. He is not blatantly lying to the reader. The closest one is Theon. But really, Theon does symbolically die in that chapter, so it works. Also, George uses ellipses there.

Dontos' alcoholism has nothing to do with this. This is George talking to the reader. It is foreshadowing.

I'm not going to reply anymore. I believe you discuss this topic disingenuously. It is not productive. I was curious what your response would be, and now I found out. That's enough for me.

 

Tyrion was not only expected to die at that point, he was presumed dead. He spent the night of the battle in some grisly ward full of sick and dying commoners. He didn't make it to a private chamber for at least a day, and Sansa gets the hairnet the morning after the battle. So at the time the hairnet was given to Dontos to give to Sansa, Tyrion was likely considered lost.

But your theory that the entire plan was worked out in full at this early date is loaded with assumptions that are disproven by the text. Littlefinger also doesn't know that Olenna is going to be the poisoner. If they were already in league on this plot, there would be no reason for the hairnet and Olenna would have no reason to be questioning the "disturbing tales" she hears about Joffrey -- because the only person telling her anything but that he is a sick little monkey has admitted he lied.

Also, the hairnet scheme is in fact in perfect alignment with Littlefinger's MO: plant the seeds and wait for the fruit to ripen. He knows the best time to create the diversion needed to get Sansa out of the Red Keep will be at the wedding. So he needs to make sure that Sansa, the poison and the eventual target and poisoner are in the same place at the same time. How to do that? He can't just give Sansa the poison and tell her to keep it hidden; she's a 13yo girl and is likely to blab, or get cold feet and tell all to the queen. He can't let Dontos hold it; he'd probably sell it, and the hairnet, for booze. And as I said, if Lady O is to be the poisoner, he can just give to her, either now or right before the wedding. So the only option at this point is to give it to Sansa in disguise before all the dust settles from the battle. This way she doesn't know what it is, just that it's her salvation, and anyone who happens upon it in her belongings will thing it's just an ordinary hairnet.

So no, your assumption that the entire plan, including poisoner and target, was worked out right from the beginning is proven false by the text.

George is not saying anything definitively with "It's justice you hold. It's vengeance for you father." either. Again, you assume this to mean Joffrey and only Joffrey, but as the text plainly shows over and over again, family members are used to avenge the wrongs of their kin. It's the whole basis of wardship. It's why Willem and Tion were killed. Heck, it's why Sansa was beaten, to "answer for your brother's latest treasons."

And the fact is, George has had characters say things far more definitive that point the reader to a false conclusion:

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"I know the truth Jon Arryn died for," he told her.

"Do you?"

. . .

"My brother is worth a hundred of your friend."

"Your brother?" Ned said. "Or your lover."

"Both." She did not flinch from the truth . . .

And then later:

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"And what was Lord Arryn plotting?"

"He knew," Pycelle said. "About . . . about . . ."

. . .

"Yes," he whimpered, "yes, Coleman was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew."

So twice we have not just foreshadowing but outright confirmation that Cersei had Arryn killed because he knew. But then, surprise, gotcha, or whatever you want to call it, the truth was vastly different. And if you looked carefully (aka, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, don't just take someone's word for it, like the sealord's cat), all of the actual evidence was there to come to the correct conclusion -- just like the poisoned pie.

So on the one hand, we have your assumptions that the plan was worked out to the last detail from the very beginning (which is proven false), and that "vengeance" can only mean Joffrey (also proven false) and that this is George foreshadowing the plain obvious answer that he then provides in the text, vs the weight of all the actual physical evidence, logistical evidence, motivational evidence and every single, solitary fact in the book that confirms the pie and disproves the wine. I'll take facts over assumptions any day.

 

[Yaya]

i'm on team poisoned pie.  this was a great debate.

my considerations:
firstly, no way that Olenna would option for any risk to Margaery with poison in the wine.
secondly, Joffrey pointed at Tyrion because he fatally knew it was a poisoned pie.
thirdly, it just seems that it is the most reasonable explanation - occam's law.

i like it!

 

[John Suburbs]

On 4/11/2020 at 8:08 AM, Mithras said:

Now, how can we expect the Tyrells to cooperate with LF on a plan to kill the king in his own wedding? Imagine the things Tyrells could have lost if things went wrong. Their claim to Highgarden has always been shaky. On the other hand, LF’s name or wealth is nowhere close enough to the Tyrells. If any two parties are to get involved in a highly dangerous plan, they have to trust each other completely. To build the necessary trust, each of them must have proportionate assets that might be lost if the agreement is betrayed. LF is no equal to the Tyrells in terms of wealth and nobility. So, the Tyrells could not trust him enough to be involved in such a plan with him.

It's even more unlikely, if not downright impossible, when you look at what came after this initial meeting at Highgarden:

LF was the only person who ever said Joffrey was anything but a sick little monkey, so on the surface, we are expected to believe that it was on his word and his word alone that the marriage was allowed to go forward.

Then a few weeks later, Lady Olenna realizes that Littlefinger has lied and Margaery is in grave danger. But she doesn't learn this from LF himself, but from Sansa. So as far as Lady O knows, LF would have been perfectly content to let Margaery go into the bedding chamber to be beaten, raped, tortured, defiled, gutted and fileted by old worm-lips.

So then, the wine theory would have us believe that at some point after this, LF approaches Lady O and, despite having proven himself as a lying, double-dealing backstabber, he is now going to help her commit regicide and save Margaery from the terrible fate that he himself put her in. And Lady Olenna, being the simpleton that she is, says OK, I trust you implicitly, Lord Petyr, and she goes right on trusting him when it turns out that his "plan" is to first give Joff and Margaery a single giant chalice that not only makes the poisoning more difficult and greatly increases the chances of getting caught but also introduces the very real possibility of Margaery getting poisoned. Then, Lady O is to wait until the wedding so she can poison the chalice literally right in front of no less than a thousand witnesses, and at a time when the entire Tyrell family minus 1 is in the Red Keep surrounded by Lannister guards. And where is the known liar, double-dealer and backstabber while all this is going on? Why, he's safe and sound on his boat way out in the bay waiting for his prize to come rowing up out of the mist, or to split for Braavos should anything go wrong.

Where, I ask, where do people get the idea that Lady Olenna Tyrell is this buggeringly stupid?

[John Suburbs]

13 hours ago, Yaya said:

i'm on team poisoned pie.  this was a great debate.

my considerations:
firstly, no way that Olenna would option for any risk to Margaery with poison in the wine.
secondly, Joffrey pointed at Tyrion because he fatally knew it was a poisoned pie.
thirdly, it just seems that it is the most reasonable explanation - occam's law.

i like it!

 

Lol, not to mention:

Quote

Margaery looked at him with concern. "Your Grace?"

"It's, kof, the pie, noth -- kof, pie."