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Pedro Luiz

Purple Wedding, Finally Solved.

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I think this is the relevant description of the individual portion of pie delivered to Tyrion.

A serving man place a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said.

...

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. ...

(ASoS, Chap. 60, Tyrion VIII)

I meant to tie in Sansa's situation at Joffrey's feast to the Catelyn role after the Red Wedding. Catelyn was supposed to be a hostage after that feast but she dies and escapes and becomes a living dead woman.

Several posts in this thread mention that Tyrion might have been the target of the poison plot at the Joffrey's feast, but I think making Sansa a hostage of Highgarden or her continuing captivity at the Red Keep are clearer parts of the subtext. Sansa is nicknamed "Little Bird" by Sandor Clegane. When the pie is cut, birds are set free to fly away. But we have this live bird / dead bird duality with the two pies mentioned by Tyrion, which ties into Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart. She's both dead and alive, like the pigeons in the cold (living) and hot (dead) pies.

Sansa becomes Alayne after Joffrey's wedding feast. It's not exactly like the death of Catelyn, but it's linked. ("You're deathly pale, my lady.") The stone statue of Alyssa Arryn is linked to Catelyn and to Tyrion - it fell on the Arryn champion when Bronn fought on Tyrion's behalf.  Sansa's interlude at the Eyrie links her to this stone statue if only by proximity. I believe she builds her snow castle near the toppled statue.

The name Alayne is also close to the name Lyanna, in wordplay land, which links Sansa to another dead woman statue.

When Sansa imagines herself with Willas Tyrell at Highgarden, she imagines each with a kitten on his or her lap. If there is wordplay around kitten and "King in the North" (KitN) - and I'm not saying GRRM would imply anything that imaginative or entertaining, but YMMV - the notion of Sansa as a valuable hostage for Highgarden might be reinforced.

Comparing Joffrey's death to Tyrion's trial by combat, with Ser Gregor and Prince Oberyn as the champions, may reinforce my old thinking that Tywin killed Joffrey. My thinking was that there was poison on the silver sword (Symon Silver Tongue?) that Ser Ilyn gives Joffrey to cut the pie. This fits with the idea that Oberyn applied poison to his spear before fighting Ser Gregor. Tywin wanted Joffrey dead because Joffrey thought of himself as Robert's son: he killed Tommen's pet deer and made a vest for himself, as in Silence of the Lambs. Tywin wanted a malleable king who would follow his directions, not a smart aleck who insulted Tywin and acted rashly.

Oddly, though, several of Joffrey's final gestures are linked to Jaime. Jaime's new gold hand is made to hold a wine glass; Joff holds his chalice one-handed as he grabs pie with his other hand. The gold hand is where Jaime used to have his Kingslayer hand - he stabbed Aerys with a sword, and that was his sword hand. Maybe this supports the theory that the poison is in the wine - Joffrey is holding the wine in his Kingslayer hand? As the seconds tick by and Joffrey continues to choke, Tyrion looks at Joff's face and says, "He has Jaime's eyes. Only he had never seen Jaime look so scared. ..."

Later in the books, Jaime drafts Ser Ilyn to help him learn to use his other hand, the hand corresponding to that Joff uses to grab pigeon pie. If you think Ser Ilyn has anything to do with Joffrey's death (wouldn't that be ironic, if the executioner known as the King's Justice helps to inflict justice on the King), the use of the other hand to eat the pie might support theories that the pie is the source of the poison.

Finally, I want to offer a possibility to explain why Margaery did not suffer from the Strangler if she was drinking from the same chalice and handling the same silver sword that I think might have killed Joffrey. Examine her similarities to Melisandre. We know that Melisandre drank a lot of poisoned wine and was not affected. After Stannis used a glove and leather cloak to pull the fake "Lightbringer" from the fire on Dragonstone, he left it behind for Melisandre and his squires to retrieve it. So Melisandre is able to handle a so-called magic sword without protection, as well as chugging poisoned wine. If you are intent on literal, real-world explanations for plot points, I can't explain why Margaery would have powers like Melisandre's powers. It's just a literary possibility worth examining, if you want to understand more about Joffrey's death.

We also have to figure out Margaery's line: "My lord ... we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us." Who is Lord Buckler? Why is Margaery talking about him? The need for a toast may tie into the "stoat" faces associated with the Frey family, bringing us back to the Red Wedding. But there may be deeper additional  meanings.

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47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What did Taena claim? I don't recall. 

That she saw Tyrion put something in Joff's wine.

47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I mean this did the trick on Tyrion I just don't understand why they would risk poisoning the wine Margaery was drinking also. 

Not if the precise moment of the poisoning had been determined, such as during the cutting of the pie. Or if there was a signal for Margaery not to drink any more (yeah, this is my pet theory - that Olenna's mention how she hadn't heard Rains of Castamere for a while was a signal, chosen intentionally to mimic the Red Wedding). Or a combination of both.

- And yeah, Margaery must have been in on the whole thing. She is there for the questioning of Sansa, she exchanges a look with Olenna, she is not worried about her future husband's sadism, she is not worried that Loras might get in trouble for protecting her... and she is a clever girl. Sansa finds her attitude weird but ascribes it to her own faulty judgement because she has no idea what's brewing underneath. Margaery knew.

47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, but at this point Tyrion has his own plate, with his own piece of pie on it. 

Yeah but the pie would have been brought inside whole on a platter, put on the table and cut into pieces in front of everyone sitting there. Meaning, adding something to it could easily be noted (that's why food was served like that, after all). Whereas, Joff's wine was left unobserved on the table while everyone was watching Joff and Marge cutting the pie.

However, Joff's wine was not left where it was originally supposed to be. Therefore, Olenna either had to pass the poison to a family member sitting close by (Garlan or Leonette), or to someone able to place it in the wine even from the distance, which would be Butterbumps. Unless she was an escamoteur herself, for which there is no indication, she couldn't have reached the cup on her own, as only a couple pages prior it is highlighted again how exceptionally tiny she is, almost like Tyrion himself, and he had to climb on his chair to reach chalice.

- So, I respectfully disagree with @mormont: there is still something to discuss, because I doubt GRRM made Olenna's short figure such an issue for no reason. She was the brain of the poisoning, but whose hand did she use? (I hope that not Garlan's, I like the guy).

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The thing that bothers me about the common theory is that Margaery was drinking the wine too. I haven't really seen a satisfactory answer for that (IMO) and if it wasn't the wine, it had to be the pie. 

Haven't read the chapter in a while, but do we know for sure that Margaery was actually drinking the wine, rather than putting the chalice up to her lips for the look of the thing?

Or.......

39 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

She was the brain of the poisoning, but whose hand did she use? (I hope that not Garlan's, I like the guy).

Perhaps Margaery? Olenna slipped the stone from Sansa's hairnet to Margaery, who dropped it into the chalice after taking a swig?

 

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

That she saw Tyrion put something in Joff's wine

Ahh I remember now. Yeah, who knows. Likely because that's what Cersei thinks happened. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Not if the precise moment of the poisoning had been determined, such as during the cutting of the pie. Or if there was a signal for Margaery not to drink any more (yeah, this is my pet theory - that Olenna's mention how she hadn't heard Rains of Castamere for a while was a signal, chosen intentionally to mimic the Red Wedding). Or a combination of both

Yeah, this could be.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And yeah, Margaery must have been in on the whole thing. She is there for the questioning of Sansa, she exchanges a look with Olenna, she is not worried about her future husband's sadism, she is not worried that Loras might get in trouble for protecting her... and she is a clever girl. Sansa finds her attitude weird but ascribes it to her own faulty judgement because she has no idea what's brewing underneath. Margaery knew

I agree that Margaery knew whatever the Tyrell's were up to. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah but the pie would have been brought inside whole on a platter, put on the table and cut into pieces in front of everyone sitting there. Meaning, adding something to it could easily be noted (that's why food was served like that, after all). Whereas, Joff's wine was left unobserved on the table while everyone was watching Joff and Marge cutting the pie.

I think the same can be said for either. If a distraction was sufficient to give the poisoner time to put the poison in the wine, then it would work for the pie as well. They were both sitting on the table, in plain sight. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

However, Joff's wine was not left where it was originally supposed to be. Therefore, Olenna either had to pass the poison to a family member sitting close by (Garlan or Leonette), or to someone able to place it in the wine even from the distance, which would be Butterbumps. Unless she was an escamoteur herself, for which there is no indication, she couldn't have reached the cup on her own, as only a couple pages prior it is highlighted again how exceptionally tiny she is, almost like Tyrion himself, and he had to climb on his chair to reach chalice

Right, I mean I don't disagree, I just don't think this discounts the pie being poisoned. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

So, I respectfully disagree with @mormont: there is still something to discuss, because I doubt GRRM made Olenna's short figure such an issue for no reason. She was the brain of the poisoning, but whose hand did she use? (I hope that not Garlan's, I like the guy).

Would you like him less if he poisoned Joff? I think I would like him more lol

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40 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Haven't read the chapter in a while, but do we know for sure that Margaery was actually drinking the wine, rather than putting the chalice up to her lips for the look of the thing?

Yeah this is a possibility. Or as Ygrain said there was a signal for her to stop drinking. Either works I suppose. 

 

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-purple-wedding-george-rr-martin-explains-thinking-behind-king-joffreys-demise-9262045.html

"the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking"

Thanks for this link. As GRRM confirmed the poison that killed Joff was one mentioned earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking, and we are given a clear description in ACOK how the Strangler works — Maester Cressen died choking — then that leaves us with only one option, the Strangler.  

And then we have this from ASOS

Quote

On the table were laid a number of small jars. Pycelle was pleased to put a name to each. “Greycap,” he said in a quavery voice, “from the toadstool. Nightshade, sweetsleep, demon’s dance. This is blindeye. Widow’s blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons. This wolfsbane, here basilisk venom, and this one the tears of Lys. Yes. I know them all. The Imp Tyrion Lannister stole them from my chambers, when he had me falsely imprisoned.”

“Pycelle,” Tyrion called out, risking his father’s wrath, “could any of these poisons choke off a man’s breath?” “No. For that, you must turn to a rarer poison. When I was a boy at the Citadel, my teachers named it simply the strangler.”

So, as @mormont and you rightly pointed out, I see no reason to invent a new poison with exactly the same properties as the Strangler in the story. The poison that killed Joff is most certainly the Strangler and we are also shown how this poison is activated in the Prologue of ACOK — it is dissolved in wine. Further, the chapter also states that the poison turns the victim’s face purple and gave the appearance of the victim choking on a morsel of food. 

IMO, there’s no question it was the wine and as you pointed Margery was probably given a signal as to when not to drink from the chalice or perhaps even, she herself was the one who put the crystal in the wine. 

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7 hours ago, mormont said:

No, no. If I say

That means something. No tags means it's just an opinion as a member of the forums, which moderators also are.

Thanks for the clarification

7 hours ago, mormont said:

But on that point, I've been on the forums for nearly seventeen years. I've seen and participated in iterations of this discussion since before AFFC was published. So when someone, moderator or not, who has that experience says they think it's a closed issue, at the very least you should assume their opinion is pretty substantially founded, not a knee-jerk reaction.

I try to never think another poster has a knee jerk. But when you say things like 

7 hours ago, mormont said:

The plate has not been served to Tyrion. 

 

7 hours ago, mormont said:

, but from memory I don't think we're told that.

I mean, im no stranger to asoiaf either.

 

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, I meant killing Tyrion alone doesn't help her. In this scenario it needed to be at the feast, in front of a lot of people, in order for Joff to be blamed, because him being blamed for murder does help rid Margaery of him. 

Idk, I gotta agree with @Mormont. You cant try a king for murder of an imp. Cersei would never allow it. Probably Tywin too.

But I think you may be on to something, LF did have eyes on Joff. Itll cause discord, Jaime was fond of the little guy. And even if Tyrell cant call for a trial theyll at least push Tywin to curbing Joff. Probably politically.

I dont think anyone really fretted over Marges safety, Ned didn't with his daughter. Plus Loras the shining knight is there. 

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-purple-wedding-george-rr-martin-explains-thinking-behind-king-joffreys-demise-9262045.html

"the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking"

Everyone who wanted a comeuppance for The Ned.

 

Thanks. So, it was the stranger.

 

Oh, them. I didn't that get vibe, although I did from Slynt. Idk, I was never a Ned guy, you ask me he got his comeuppance. That man he killed in the first chapter never sat well with me.

Still, you got a point I suppose. He was the main character whos got lots of fans

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5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah this is a possibility. Or as Ygrain said there was a signal for her to stop drinking. Either works I suppose. 

 

Like @Seams was getting at, parallels with our asos weddings. So, the bride. Ones guilty .

Quote

Catelyn felt sorry for the girl. Most brides tried to return the banter, or at least pretended to enjoy it, but Roslin was stiff with terror, clutching the Greatjon as if she feared he might drop her. She's crying too, Catelyn realized as she watched Ser Marq Piper pull off one of the bride's shoes.

And ones a suspect

Quote

Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily.

I mean look, im all for the admiration of Margaery (although she stumbled into Cerseis trap) and the belittlement of Freys. But the contrast between these two murderous brides is too great imo to think Margaery had a hand in the plot

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20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, I gotta agree with @Mormont. You cant try a king for murder of an imp. Cersei would never allow it. Probably Tywin too.

But I think you may be on to something, LF did have eyes on Joff. Itll cause discord, Jaime was fond of the little guy. And even if Tyrell cant call for a trial theyll at least push Tywin to curbing Joff. Probably politically.

I dont think anyone really fretted over Marges safety, Ned didn't with his daughter. Plus Loras the shining knight is there. 

Yeah, probably not. It's not really a fully formed idea, I was just batting things around. 

Getting Joff under wraps would be something they would want, I would think. But dead is even better so maybe he was the intended victim. I still can't shake the idea that it was the pie & not the wine though. 

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like @Seams was getting at, parallels with our asos weddings. So, the bride. Ones guilty .

And ones a suspect

I mean look, im all for the admiration of Margaery (although she stumbled into Cerseis trap) and the belittlement of Freys. But the contrast between these two murderous brides is too great imo to think Margaery had a hand in the plot

I see what you're saying. 

You know sometimes I think we are going to be rehashing all the details forever - even if we get the rest of the books. I do hope George clarifies alot of this for us. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

. I still can't shake the idea that it was the pie & not the wine though. 

Im with you. It appears its the pie when Joff chokes and all preliminary theories in the book is the pie, its only at Tyrions trial does the wine that Taena "saw" him spike and everyone sees him dumped get brought up

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 I do hope George clarifies alot of this for us. 

Word, somethings I do too. I expect Olenna to be upset with Petyr so something may happen there.

But I like the mystery too lol

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14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So, it was one slice, placed in front of Tyrion. It's his piece of pie.

@mormont

I stand corrected! :) I'll have to mention to GRRM next time I see him that he got that detail wrong. ;) He does slip up on some 'historical' details.

But that doesn't really help the case that the pie was poisoned, I'm afraid. From that description, the pie is placed in front of Tyrion in front of everyone and immediately covered with lemon cream, presumably from a jug or bowl - that's not an individual serving, for sure. Not much opportunity to insert the poison even if somehow you had it in a form where that was possible. You need the serving man to be in on the plot, at minimum. And even then he has a small window to do it. And you still have all the other problems to deal with.

OTOH if you just accept that the poison was in the wine... problems solved!

14 hours ago, Ygrain said:

- So, I respectfully disagree with @mormont: there is still something to discuss, because I doubt GRRM made Olenna's short figure such an issue for no reason. She was the brain of the poisoning, but whose hand did she use? (I hope that not Garlan's, I like the guy).

I mean, maybe. I would have given that more credence years ago, before AFFC and ADWD came out and totally ignored the issue. Now, I can't see what GRRM gains from revisiting the issue of exactly who placed the wine in the cup. The story's moved on.

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The fandom assumes that GRRM is an infallible writer whose plots are bulletproof. This is the root of creating many elaborate theories in an attempt to fix real or imagined plot holes. I admit that it is not easy or productive to make theories that incorporate possible author errors or plot holes. But still, it is better to keep an open eye for such matters.

I think the scenario that GRRM intended is the basic one where LF and Tyrells coordinated the plot to murder Joffrey. They brought in the poison via Sansa’s hairnet and someone slipped it into Joffrey’s wine.

The plot hole in this scenario is LF’s characterization. Even in SSM’s, GRRM pointed the reasons why LF is trusted by so many characters although he betrays them over and over again. The readers know that he is a shady character. Then, why can’t the other characters see that? GRRM explained that LF is a witty and cheerful person who is always helpful to others. Since he does not have a big name or an army and since he always makes himself useful in need of help, he is never considered as a threat. LF always wears this Gatsby-like persona to the outside world. And that is the problem.

The moment LF is involved in a conspiracy to murder a king at his wedding, this facade drops. I believe GRRM did not realize the ramifications of this when he wrote ASoS. Why should a major House like Tyrells get involved in such a risky plot with someone they thought they knew? How could they trust LF after seeing that he is not to be trusted because they witnessed his two different personas?

I believe GRRM is weighing on whether he should leave it like that and move on; or remove the plot hole by retconning something into the scenario.

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16 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Haven't read the chapter in a while, but do we know for sure that Margaery was actually drinking the wine, rather than putting the chalice up to her lips for the look of the thing?

Or.......

Perhaps Margaery? Olenna slipped the stone from Sansa's hairnet to Margaery, who dropped it into the chalice after taking a swig?

 

It couldn't have been Margaery. The strangler works fast, so it couldn't have been in the wine that ended on Tyrion's head, and that was the wine Margaery drank (or pretended to). Joffrey then drinks the wine which Tyrion refills from a flagon and goes cut the pie, still no poisoning. Then Joffrey returns, takes a drink, takes a mouthful of the pie, and starts choking. Margaery never drank.

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ahh I remember now. Yeah, who knows. Likely because that's what Cersei thinks happened. 

It is perfectly possible that she was only trying to ingratiate herself to Cersei, yes. It could have been either way.

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think the same can be said for either. If a distraction was sufficient to give the poisoner time to put the poison in the wine, then it would work for the pie as well. They were both sitting on the table, in plain sight. 

Unsupported by the text. There were tons of courses brought in and brought away (if there was anything left on the platters after the guests were done with the course). There is no mention of a pigeon pie/pies) standing on the tables throughout the feast.  And even if there were, they wouldn't be cut yet, i.e. there wouldn't be a single specific slice designated for Tyrion. The only time a specific piece could have been poisoned would be when the piece was cut of, placed in front of Tyrion and poured over with a spoon of lemoncream, and it would have had to be done by the server.

Also, the slice was served hot, which means it had to be cut off freshly, and most likely also freshly baked.

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Would you like him less if he poisoned Joff? I think I would like him more lol

Garlan was being very nice to Tyrion (and Sansa) a couple of times. I wouldn't be happy about him resolving to poison and to being the one who got Tyrion into all that trouble.

14 hours ago, teej6 said:

IMO, there’s no question it was the wine and as you pointed Margery was probably given a signal as to when not to drink from the chalice or perhaps even, she herself was the one who put the crystal in the wine. 

See above - she never drank from or touched the chalice once it was refilled.

2 hours ago, mormont said:

I stand corrected! :) I'll have to mention to GRRM next time I see him that he got that detail wrong. ;) He does slip up on some 'historical' details.

But that doesn't really help the case that the pie was poisoned, I'm afraid. From that description, the pie is placed in front of Tyrion in front of everyone and immediately covered with lemon cream, presumably from a jug or bowl - that's not an individual serving, for sure. Not much opportunity to insert the poison even if somehow you had it in a form where that was possible. You need the serving man to be in on the plot, at minimum. And even then he has a small window to do it. And you still have all the other problems to deal with.

Not sure if I am reading you correctly, but Tyrion received a slice. Hot. Meaning, there was a whole pie somewhere around from which that slice had been cut off. Just like Lord Wyman serves the Frey pies - huge pies from which slices are cut off and served to the individual guests.

2 hours ago, mormont said:

I mean, maybe. I would have given that more credence years ago, before AFFC and ADWD came out and totally ignored the issue. Now, I can't see what GRRM gains from revisiting the issue of exactly who placed the wine in the cup. The story's moved on.

Er... Jon Arryn's murder was not revisited till the end of ASOS, either, and for that part of the story, it was also a non-issue. Yet, the reveal did come.

If the abomination did take a page from George's book towards its end, there might be a plausible reason why this plot should be revisited.

50 minutes ago, Mithras said:

The moment LF is involved in a conspiracy to murder a king at his wedding, this facade drops. I believe GRRM did not realize the ramifications of this when he wrote ASoS. Why should a major House like Tyrells get involved in such a risky plot with someone they thought they knew? How could they trust LF after seeing that he is not to be trusted because they witnessed his two different personas?

Thing is... did the Tyrells actually conspire with LF? We know that he arranged the hairnet, but did the Tyrells? We don't know who they turned to (or thought they did) to procure the poison for them.

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49 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Unsupported by the text. There were tons of courses brought in and brought away (if there was anything left on the platters after the guests were done with the course). There is no mention of a pigeon pie/pies) standing on the tables throughout the feast.  And even if there were, they wouldn't be cut yet, i.e. there wouldn't be a single specific slice designated for Tyrion. The only time a specific piece could have been poisoned would be when the piece was cut of, placed in front of Tyrion and poured over with a spoon of lemoncream, and it would have had to be done by the server

I'll have to reread again & get back with ya. Just for clarity though, I'm not talking about the entire pie being poisoned, just Tyrion's slice. So yeah, after his slice was cut & the lemoncream poured over it. Does Joff eat it right then? Otherwise it wouldn't have to be the server. It could've been dropped in the pie at any point after the server puts it on the table for Tyrion & before Joff eats it. 

51 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Garlan was being very nice to Tyrion (and Sansa) a couple of times. I wouldn't be happy about him resolving to poison and to being the one who got Tyrion into all that trouble

Ahh yeah I see. That wouldn't be very nice of him. 

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11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So yeah, after his slice was cut & the lemoncream poured over it. Does Joff eat it right then?

Wouldn’t the poison stain the lemon cream purple? 

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Not sure if I am reading you correctly, but Tyrion received slice. Hot. Meaning, there was a whole pie somewhere around from which that slice had been cut off. Just like Lord Wyman serves the Frey pies - huge pies from which slices are cut off and served to the individual guests.

Yeah, that's what we were debating over. Mormont didn't think Tyrion had a single slice sat in front of him. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I suppose it probably would. :dunno: 

I was wondering whether it’s even possible to mix it in with food/solids. I mean, it very likely is possible but I’m not sure if it could go undetected, unless it’s a purple dish. I did a search on Search of I&F, and interestingly enough the word “strangler” appears all of 6 times in all of the books/novellas/short stories. And of these 6 times, 2 are unrelated to the poison. That leaves us w/ only 4 mentions of it, 3 from the prologue in ACoK, and one in a Tyrion chapter in ASoS.

So, the most information we get on the strangler comes from Cressen, and I thought this bit is interesting:

 

“Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai’i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man’s throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim’s face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.”

Cressen is thinking to himself, so there’s no reason to hold anything back or to be secretive or disingenuous. And I find it curious that he thinks, “dissolved in wine”, and not something more generic. Almost like this is the preferred method to poison someone w/ it. 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was wondering whether it’s even possible to mix it in with food/solids. I mean, it very likely is possible but I’m not sure if it could go undetected, unless it’s a purple dish. I did a search on Search of I&F, and interestingly enough the word “strangler” appears all of 6 times in all of the books/novellas/short stories. And of these 6 times, 2 are unrelated to the poison. That leaves us w/ only 4 mentions of it, 3 from the prologue in ACoK, and one in a Tyrion chapter in ASoS.

So, the most information we get on the strangler comes from Cressen, and I thought this bit is interesting:

 

“Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai’i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man’s throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim’s face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.”

Cressen is thinking to himself, so there’s no reason to hold anything back or to be secretive or disingenuous. And I find it curious that he thinks, “dissolved in wine”, and not something more generic. Almost like this is the preferred method to poison someone w/ it. 

Indeed. I would think it would, at the least, take some ingenuity to mix it in food. 

It's clearly not a liquid else it wouldn't 'dissolve'. It seems to be some sort of crystals right? Like purple salt crystals is what I always imagine. 

I suppose if this is the hill I wanted to die on I would argue that the crystals could just be dropped into the food & not dissolving would keep it from staining the food but there is no basis for that, so I won't lol

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