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Pedro Luiz

Purple Wedding, Finally Solved.

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There is no reason to believe a baked in Strangler could even do the trick. The thing is dissolved in a liquid and seems to cause some sort of immediate allergic reaction if it passes through mouth and gullet in that form.

The idea that one of the hard crystals could do the same is very unlikely since there would be no need to dissolve into wine for that. Instead, one imagines that it would just enter the stomach in crystaline form and be no danger at all.

The very idea that something like the Strangler could be baked into a pie at all makes no sense - it would mean the entire pie would have to be poisoned, assuming it even worked with that particular poison (unlikely).

If anyone wants to poison somebody with a hard food they would use a different poison.

And the whole thing is a very easy affair.

It was planned to be viewed as an accident. Joff choked to death, case closed.

But there were several safety nets in place if that would not work. There was Tyrion as a scapegoat and there was Sansa as a scapegoat and there were key people in place who would have pointed the finger at either of them (like Taena did) if Cersei hadn't taken the Tyrell playbook and run with it herself, so to speak.

This was a very complicated regicide because the people involved were hellbent on not being caught and to maintain their standing with the Lannisters despite the fact that they murdered Joffrey.

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28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 No, it’s not speculation. It’s spelled out, clear as can be: the strangler is a purple crystal. That simple.

Right but we dont know if there are chemicals in the strangler thatll change its color when mixed with, say, pigeons. (A common dessert at westeros weddings). 

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again, counting on people being too drunk or distracted to notice is a big risk to take. 

No doubt. Murder, abduction and high treason courts a big risk

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s interesting to see other people’s ideas about the PW, but I have seen nothing to change my mind or even that would make me think about maybe reconsidering it: Joffrey was the intended victim, the strangler was in the wine. 

:cheers:

Believe what you will :) 

cheers

36 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Sansa told him who had touched her hairnet.  He did not supply that information. At that point he certainly could riff lies on the subject.  And if she said nobody had touched her hairnet, he could use it as a lesson on being observant in the future.  

Idk. Its a possibility I suppose. Idk, why would Olenna fuck with her hair then? Shae did that bad of a job?

36 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

As to whether the Tyrell's wanted her, I just think that treating her as a pariah after her wedding is a poor way of showing it.  Although I guess her feelings don't come into it in the game, since she's still treated as a pawn, so maybe they were posturing, making Tywin think he'd won.

Word. Game face. 

They were almost definitely expecting a new mrs. Tyrell. 

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

They were almost definitely expecting a new mrs. Tyrell.

But then plotting with the man who apparently told half the court that he'd bedded her mother is also very ill-suited to that goal.  

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

But then plotting with the man who apparently told half the court that he'd bedded her mother is also very ill-suited to that goal.  

Well I never said shes smart lol, Mace came from somewhere. 

Its another risk, one that they saw coming. So they overreached themselves and classic Sansa sang like a little bird. Then LF ratted and asked if he could marry Sansa to get a leg up on Tyrell, and I really wish I knew what Cerseis exact words were lol. But when the night finally came Olenna waddled up with confidence to ask Sansa to come to Highgarden.

At the end of the day, they're still in KL. But arrogant ass Tyrells are always in the market for Growing Strong

Edited by Hugorfonics

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Right but we dont know if there are chemicals in the strangler thatll change its color when mixed with, say, pigeons. (A common dessert at westeros weddings). 

Come on. Now you’re creating a whole set of custom made imaginary rules and chemical reactions to fit the theory you favour. As I’ve said before, the poison strangler is mentioned 4 times in all the books (main and ancillary), and we do get some basic info on it, but nothing even close to what you are suggesting here. So, IMO, for Martin to come back to this issue after ~ 20 years and 2 huge books and introduce a new bit of information regarding how the poison works just to have a big “A-HA GOTCHA!” moment would be very bad writing and a massive asspull, and he’s neither a bad writer nor someone who does asspulls like this. 

But I’ll make mine your words, “believe what you will”. :)

 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No doubt. Murder, abduction and high treason courts a big risk

Indeed. A huge risk when you keep it as simple and straightforward as possible, leaving as little as you can to chance. So smart players like Olenna and Littlefinger wouldn’t increase the risk factor by choosing a method that increases the risk factor significantly. 

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6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It couldn't have been Margaery. The strangler works fast, so it couldn't have been in the wine that ended on Tyrion's head, and that was the wine Margaery drank (or pretended to). Joffrey then drinks the wine which Tyrion refills from a flagon and goes cut the pie, still no poisoning. Then Joffrey returns, takes a drink, takes a mouthful of the pie, and starts choking. Margaery never drank.

See above - she never drank from or touched the chalice once it was refilled.

I just reread the chapter and you are right. The wine Margaery drank from was spilled over Tyrion’s head. The cup was then refilled by Tyrion and was never drunk from by Margaery. Joffrey drinks the refilled cup and places the empty cup on the table when he goes to cut the pie. So up until this point, it seems the wine was not poisoned unless somehow there was a more delayed reaction in Joffrey’s case as compared to that of Cressen’s.

After Joffrey cuts the pie, he comes back, Tyrion refills the chalice that up until then was sitting unattended (everyone’s attention including Tyrion’s was on the cutting of the pie) on the table. Joffrey drinks quite a bit of the wine, then talks about the pie, eats the pie while still holding on to the cup, talks some more, drinks more wine and begins to choke. 

So the crystal should have been dropped into the chalice while it was left unattended on the table. Margaery is on Joffrey’s arm most of this time and is close enough to drop the crystal into the empty chalice on the table. If not her, the only other Tyrells who are close enough are Garlan and Leonette. Considering where the chalice was on the dais, I don’t see anyone but Tyrion (not him of course), Margaery, Garlan, Leonette, or the serving man who served the pie, being close enough to drop the poison into it. The other option (which I think unlikely) would be the flagon that Tyrion took from the serving girl had poisoned wine already in it.  But then somehow Joffrey had a very delayed reaction to the poison and the serving girl would have had to remove that flagon quickly so no one else could/ would drink from it. But I don’t think this is what happened. I rather think it was one of the three Tyrells I mentioned above that placed the crystal in the chalice while it sat unattended on the table. Yes, I too like Garlan and don’t want to see him involved in this plot but then again the Tyrells are shown to be a close knit and calculating bunch.

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41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again, counting on people being too drunk or distracted to notice is a big risk to take. 

Counting on Tyrion or Joffrey to be drunk seems a pretty good bet IMO.  

52 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s interesting to see other people’s ideas about the PW, but I have seen nothing to change my mind or even that would make me think about maybe reconsidering it: Joffrey was the intended victim, the strangler was in the wine.

I'll give you someone elses opinion.  The opinion of a man who did not expect us to be so sure of what happened.

Quote

 

Interviewer: You also deny us the expected way that we would think that Joffrey will die, which would be by one of the hands of the surviving Stark kids, or through some other obvious mechanism from people he has wronged. You give us his death, but deny use the typical pleasure that we would normally get from it.

Martin: I wanted to make it little bit unclear what exactly has happened here, make the readers work a little to try and figure out what has happened.

From: https://ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/

So, to me, taking the explanation by Littlefinger seems a bit too easy if the author's intent was to make us work to figure it out.  I'd say that this thread is exactly what he expected.  Moving forward (recall that GRRM wrote the episode, but D&D produced it, and someone else directed it, so the final filming may not be true to the script):  

Quote

 

Interviewer: For me, one of the most brilliant things you did is that you kill off these major characters at a wedding, and then you kill off another major character a few chapters later — at another wedding! I never would have predicted that, precisely because of how much you like to vary things.

Martin: I don’t know how it comes across in the show, because I haven’t actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey’s death was to make it look like an accident — someone’s out celebrating, they haven’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it’s very serious. I based it a little on the death of Eustace, the son of King Stephen of England. Stephen had usurped the crown from his cousin, the empress Maude, and they fought a long civil war and the anarchy and the war would be passed down to second generation, because Maude had a son and Henry and Stephen had a son. But Eustace choked to death at a feast. People are still debating a thousand of years later: Did he choke to death or was he poisoned? Because by removing Eustace, it brought about a peace that ended the English civil war. Eustace’s death was accepted [as accidental], and I think that’s what the murderers here were hoping for — the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something. But what they didn’t count on, was Cersei’s immediate assumption that this was murder. Cersei wasn’t fooled by this for a second. She doesn’t believe that it was an accidental death. You saw the scene filmed, does it come across as he could possibly be just choking or is it very clear he’s been poisoned?

Interviewer: It comes across like it could be either, at least at first. By the time there’s the moment with Tyrion looking at Joffrey’s cup of wine, you’ve put it together.

 

Again, to me, making it extremely clear how he died by focusing on the wine cup, is incongruous with GRRM's earlier statement of making us work to figure it out.  

To me the interviewer is typical of the GoT target audience that is just enjoying the show for what it is, not us here who are analyzing it.  We are expected to to see the wine as likely, but if misdirection is intended, then I am not going to take it as gospel truth (many don't take the gospel that way, in fact, pun intended).  

Lastly, I'll point out that GRRM mentions how he introduced the strangler in ACoK, where it was used in wine.  Again, if misdirection is intended, would the same mode be used this time?  Or might you make it look like the same mode was used.  

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16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

At the end of the day, they're still in KL. But arrogant ass Tyrells are always in the market for Growing Strong

Yeah I am going to stick with my initial impression the first time I thought about this deeply.  It's obvious that the Tyrells have good motive against Joff.  However, I just don't see why they would move against him until Margaery had born him an heir.  It's my own thought from the first time I saw this debated, and I still see it as their most logical move. Obviously, I could be reading that wrong, too. 

The prospect of a marriage to Tommen just seems a greater risk, especially with Loras established on the KG to protect her.  Recall that Joff is on his best behavior when he knows people are watching.  You can be sure that the Tyrells figured that out through gossip.  It would be 100% expected that Loras would make sure he was at the door listening whenever the pair were alone together.

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Posted (edited)

@John Suburbs Tywin is no threat to the Tyrells.  The Tarbecks and Reynes were rebellious vassals and no vassals have given trouble since.  He attacked the Riverlands because its Lord's daughter kidnapped his son.  It was retaliation, pure and simple.  Unless the Tyrells do something stupid, they're safe.

Joffrey is a weak reed.   He is headstrong, inconstant, tyrannical, and just plain unreliable - not to mention abusive.  And in a few years Tommen - who likes Margaery - will come of age and be be in a position to help his wife's family.

When the plot was put into motion - before the Blackwater - Sansa wasn't the key to the North.  Robb was alive and well and likely to stay that way.  So there would have been zero reason to target Tyrion because no reason to think he will marry Sansa for the North.

If Sansa is arrested, the hairnet implicates her.  She has ample motive and her husband had threatened Joffrey.  Nothing she might say about Lady O adjusting it will change that.

We have had no indication that the strangler is administered any way but dissolved in wine despite ample opportunity to do so.  For example, Arya is getting a graduate course in poisons.  Alternate methods could be easily mentioned then - or at Tyrion's trial.

Edited by Nevets

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Thing is... did the Tyrells actually conspire with LF? We know that he arranged the hairnet, but did the Tyrells? We don't know who they turned to (or thought they did) to procure the poison for them.

I think they did. We can safely assume that the missing crystal in Sansa’s hairnet was the Strangler and Olenna removed it when she fiddled with Sansa’s hair. Olenna is not going to conspire with Dontos who is the only other person we are shown to know about the hairnet. So it had to be LF. She should have had direct dealings with LF. I don’t see any other possibility. Could it have been Tywin that Olenna dealt with? Could be, but then it makes the plot too complicated. But otoh, Tywin would also have wanted a more tractable monarch/ grandson on the throne and may have decided doing away with Joffrey was better for the realm and for him. But then GRRM would have to explain this plot in future books and perhaps it makes things too complicated. 

Edited by teej6

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52 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Come on. Now you’re creating a whole set of custom made imaginary rules and chemical reactions to fit the theory you favour. As I’ve said before, the poison strangler is mentioned 4 times in all the books (main and ancillary), and we do get some basic info on it, but nothing even close to what you are suggesting here. So, IMO, for Martin to come back to this issue after ~ 20 years and 2 huge books and introduce a new bit of information regarding how the poison works just to have a big “A-HA GOTCHA!” moment would be very bad writing and a massive asspull, and he’s neither a bad writer nor someone who does asspulls like this. 

Yes, in the prologue of ACOK, we are given a detailed description of the strangler — how it looks (small purple crystals), how it is activated (dissolved in wine), how it affects the victim (the victim chokes to death, turns the victim purple, and can give the appearance of an accidental death). Like you mentioned, GRRM has already described in length the properties and effects of this poison and there’s no need for him to reintroduce another bit of information on this poison/ plot to complicate things.

At the wedding, Joffrey is drinking plenty of wine from a cup that was left unattended on the table and the strangler we are shown before is activated by being dissolved in wine. A crystal that resembles the strangler is missing from Sansa’s hairnet, which was fiddled with by Olenna. This, IMO, gives us enough information on how Joffrey was poisoned. Will we be told about more conspirators in the plot, like the other Tyrells, or say even Tywin in future books? Perhaps. Will we find out who the actual poisoner was? Perhaps. But somehow I don’t think we are going to get a more detailed description of this plot — we may just get another line or two about it in future books. As GRRM compared Joffrey’s death to Eustace’s, he may want to leave this too open to debate long after the books end. But even if I don’t get any more information on this plot in future books, I’m satisfied with the text we currently have and the conclusion I’ve come to based on it.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Come on. Now you’re creating a whole set of custom made imaginary rules and chemical reactions to fit the theory you favour. As I’ve said before, the poison strangler is mentioned 4 times in all the books (main and ancillary), and we do get some basic info on it, but nothing even close to what you are suggesting here. So, IMO, for Martin to come back to this issue after ~ 20 years and 2 huge books and introduce a new bit of information regarding how the poison works just to have a big “A-HA GOTCHA!” moment would be very bad writing and a massive asspull, and he’s neither a bad writer nor someone who does asspulls like this. 

I mean your probably right. 

Quote

Every hedge maester knows the common poisons, and Lord Arryn displayed none of the signs. And the Hand was loved by all. What sort of monster in man's flesh would dare to murder such a noble lord?"

Its a complicated subject but yea your probably right.  (Lol mans flesh, never noticed that)

Idk, grrm loves his aha! moments. Like Young Griff, or Stoneheart. Playing with Davos' life like that, or Brans. Idk if that constitutes as bad writing

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

But I’ll make mine your words, “believe what you will”. :)

Lol, yea it's catchy

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. A huge risk when you keep it as simple and straightforward as possible, leaving as little as you can to chance. So smart players like Olenna and Littlefinger wouldn’t increase the risk factor by choosing a method that increases the risk factor significantly. 

Greedy ass holes. As Petyr himself puts it

Quote

In for a penny, in for a stag, I always say.

 

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

Yeah I am going to stick with my initial impression the first time I thought about this deeply.  It's obvious that the Tyrells have good motive against Joff.  However, I just don't see why they would move against him until Margaery had born him an heir.  It's my own thought from the first time I saw this debated, and I still see it as their most logical move. Obviously, I could be reading that wrong, too. 

The prospect of a marriage to Tommen just seems a greater risk, especially with Loras established on the KG to protect her.  Recall that Joff is on his best behavior when he knows people are watching.  You can be sure that the Tyrells figured that out through gossip.  It would be 100% expected that Loras would make sure he was at the door listening whenever the pair were alone together.

When I first read it I thought Tyrion was the target in the pie and then I came here and found myself in the minority. Marge acting all chill unlike Roslin kept me convinced. 

When I first really looked into it I decided that LF and Olenna must have conspired when Tyrion set the meeting in acok, which I immediately thought was both the most logical and hysterical

Edited by Hugorfonics

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

I just reread the chapter and you are right. The wine Margaery drank from was spilled over Tyrion’s head. The cup was then refilled by Tyrion and was never drunk from by Margaery. Joffrey drinks the refilled cup and places the empty cup on the table when he goes to cut the pie. So up until this point, it seems the wine was not poisoned unless somehow there was a more delayed reaction in Joffrey’s case as compared to that of Cressen’s.

After Joffrey cuts the pie, he comes back, Tyrion refills the chalice that up until then was sitting unattended (everyone’s attention including Tyrion’s was on the cutting of the pie) on the table. Joffrey drinks quite a bit of the wine, then talks about the pie, eats the pie while still holding on to the cup, talks some more, drinks more wine and begins to choke. 

So the crystal should have been dropped into the chalice while it was left unattended on the table. Margaery is on Joffrey’s arm most of this time and is close enough to drop the crystal into the empty chalice on the table. If not her, the only other Tyrells who are close enough are Garlan and Leonette. Considering where the chalice was on the dais, I don’t see anyone but Tyrion (not him of course), Margaery, Garlan, Leonette, or the serving man who served the pie, being close enough to drop the poison into it. The other option (which I think unlikely) would be the flagon that Tyrion took from the serving girl had poisoned wine already in it.  But then somehow Joffrey had a very delayed reaction to the poison and the serving girl would have had to remove that flagon quickly so no one else could/ would drink from it. But I don’t think this is what happened. I rather think it was one of the three Tyrells I mentioned above that placed the crystal in the chalice while it sat unattended on the table. Yes, I too like Garlan and don’t want to see him involved in this plot but then again the Tyrells are shown to be a close knit and calculating bunch.

It was Garlan. He is still there on the dais (Leonette disappears at one point during the chapter, possibly because George forgot about her). Garlan is the one talks to Tyrion, the one who helps him back on his feet after he served Joff as a cupbearer.

And we read about people standing up when they cheer the royal couple and the pie. That is the moment where Garlan rose, too, and walked over to the chalice - which, due to its enormous height, was unreachable for Olenna and also, conveniently, outside the view of Sansa and Tyrion (even if they hadn't discussed Ilyn Payne's swords at that time).

Olenna herself was far too small to do that, and Left and Right are not mentioned to have been there. She went there, though, to give Garlan and Margaery the go. It was her plan and her decision that they would go through with it.

That chalice was poisoned is also quite obvious from the rest of the wine which Tyrion later spills - it seems to have contained some remnants of the Strangler which were slowly dissolving.

Garlan is the perfect real poisoner, and one should assume his calculated praise and niceties to Tyrion were just that - calculated nicetities. Garlan is the last one Tyrion would ever suspect even if he ever considered the Tyrells as suspects.

And it seems that pretty much the entire house was in on the plan - with the possible exception of Mace and Loras. Loras is too rash to be trusted with such stuff, and as a KG might not be willing to go along with it. And Mace might not be in on it because the entire point of Joff's murder was to give Mace what he wanted - his daughter becoming a queen without Joffrey fucking things up. If Mace had seen reason before and not gone through with his Lannister plan as Olenna urged him to do then there wouldn't have been a need to murder Joff.

But Garlan, Margaery and Alerie are definitely in on the plot. It is Alerie who tries to push through plan A - it was an accident - by loudly telling her daughter that Joff choked on his pie. She wouldn't do that if she didn't know the script.

Margaery isn't the greatest of schemers but she is a very fine actress, and so are her mother and brother.

We don't know whether Littlefinger briefed Olenna on the whole dwarf show stuff, but that isn't really necessary. The Tyrell script would have been to poison the chalice during the cutting of the pie. All Margaery needed to do was to get the chalice close to Garlan/Tyrion before that, and that would have been easily done. If Joff hadn't been picking on Tyrion she would have gone over there to talk with Garlan or Leonette or Sansa for some reason.

She also does show up there to end the Tyrion scene and to ensure Joff would leave the chalice there and come to something with her. Once she knows the poison is inside, all she has to do is not be the first to drink from it. And that's easily accomplished - Joff isn't the kind of guy who would allow his wife to drink first, anyway.

As for more being revealed about the mechanics of the murder:

That is pretty likely. Olenna and her ilk won't get away with this thing. They will pay for it, and when they do they will first confess, one imagines. Figuring out that the Tyrells actually murdered Joffrey and Tyrion was innocent might be something that drives Cersei really over the edge, especially if she realized/learned this only after her Tyrion paranoia helped to get Tommen and Margaery killed.

We also need to know something more about Littlefinger's actual machinations with Olenna considering they must have directly agreed to murder Joffrey before Littlefinger returned to KL since Dontos gave Sansa the hairnet back at the end of ACoK, after the Blackwater. He clearly didn't tell Sansa everything about his dealings with the Tyrells.

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Hate it all you want but this is what will happen in TWoW :P

  1. Harry is slain in the tourney.
  2. In his chamber, Littlefinger tries to talk Sansa into getting pregnant from him so that they can pass the baby as late Harry’s a la Ossifer Plumm. Sansa realizes that Littlefinger arranged the death of Harry just as he will eventually kill Sweetrobin as well. Sansa says no but Littlefinger tries to rape her and she slays him with that infamous dagger.
  3. Then Shadrich breaks in, reveals that he knows her true identity and proposes to take her North. Sansa decides to flee with him because she can't trust anyone in the Vale especially after killing Littlefinger. Shadrich betrays Sansa and brings her to King’s Landing where Cersei awaits.
  4. This is the point where GRRM will revisit the Purple Wedding.
  5. In her trial for regicide, Sansa blames Littlefinger and the Tyrells with the details she knows. This comes after Tyrells suffer huge losses elsewhere (such as the ironborn invasion of the Reach and Mace getting killed in battle against Golden Company). Cersei is already looking for an excuse to cut the Tyrells loose and Sansa’s testimony will provide just that. Marg will be arrested again and Tyrells will be summoned to the court to answer for the charges. Olenna will confess that it was her and her alone, though I don’t think that will be enough to save Marg.

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3 hours ago, Mithras said:

Hate it all you want but this is what will happen in TWoW :P

  1. Harry is slain in the tourney.
  2. In his chamber, Littlefinger tries to talk Sansa into getting pregnant from him so that they can pass the baby as late Harry’s a la Ossifer Plumm. Sansa realizes that Littlefinger arranged the death of Harry just as he will eventually kill Sweetrobin as well. Sansa says no but Littlefinger tries to rape her and she slays him with that infamous dagger.
  3. Then Shadrich breaks in, reveals that he knows her true identity and proposes to take her North. Sansa decides to flee with him because she can't trust anyone in the Vale especially after killing Littlefinger. Shadrich betrays Sansa and brings her to King’s Landing where Cersei awaits.
  4. This is the point where GRRM will revisit the Purple Wedding.
  5. In her trial for regicide, Sansa blames Littlefinger and the Tyrells with the details she knows. This comes after Tyrells suffer huge losses elsewhere (such as the ironborn invasion of the Reach and Mace getting killed in battle against Golden Company). Cersei is already looking for an excuse to cut the Tyrells loose and Sansa’s testimony will provide just that. Marg will be arrested again and Tyrells will be summoned to the court to answer for the charges. Olenna will confess that it was her and her alone, though I don’t think that will be enough to save Marg.

Sure, it could happen. But what evidence is there for it? If there's no evidence, it's just fan-fic. 

Not that I hate it, I genuinely like some parts. 

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20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree there is motive. But that means the pie is poisoned not the wine right? How does the strangler get dissolved in the pie? & How does it not dye the pie purple? 

Since it dissolved near instantly in wine, it stands to reason that it would dissolve in pie, although more slowly. Just like a crystal of sugar or salt would dissolve in wine and also hot, moist pie filling. Note also that the first thing Joffrey notices is that it's "a bit dry, though," which can easily be the result of the moisture in the filling being absorbed by the dissolution process.

Have you ever seen pigeon pie? Here are some pictures:

http://carolsnotebook.com/2013/04/18/p-is-for-pigeon-pie/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/213991419768265402/

You can see that it's not chicken pot pie -- all creamy yellow with chunks of white meat. Pigeon meat is dark and oily, so pigeon pie is already dark brown or even purplish. So maybe if someone examined the pie really closely before they ate it they would see that the color is off, but that didn't happen here. Joffrey just grabbed a handful and shoved it into his gob. And the piece was topped with lemon cream anyway, which would have hidden the filling just long enough for Tyrion to take his one and only bite. 

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11 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Since it dissolved near instantly in wine, it stands to reason that it would dissolve in pie, although more slowly. Just like a crystal of sugar or salt would dissolve in wine and also hot, moist pie filling. Note also that the first thing Joffrey notices is that it's "a bit dry, though," which can easily be the result of the moisture in the filling being absorbed by the dissolution process.

Have you ever seen pigeon pie? Here are some pictures:

http://carolsnotebook.com/2013/04/18/p-is-for-pigeon-pie/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/213991419768265402/

You can see that it's not chicken pot pie -- all creamy yellow with chunks of white meat. Pigeon meat is dark and oily, so pigeon pie is already dark brown or even purplish. So maybe if someone examined the pie really closely before they ate it they would see that the color is off, but that didn't happen here. Joffrey just grabbed a handful and shoved it into his gob. And the piece was topped with lemon cream anyway, which would have hidden the filling just long enough for Tyrion to take his one and only bite. 

Nice! No I hadn't seen it before & you're right, purple wouldn't be seen in that I wouldn't think. 

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19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, I'm saying what happens in between right now & when Joff eats the pie? Is there more talking? More wine dumping? Any distractions? 

No distractions. Joffrey drinks from the wine that Tyrion has poured, goes cut the pie, the doves fly out. The pigeon pie is served, Tyrion and Sansa want to leave, Joffrey turns up, drinks, eats Tyrion's pie, starts to cough, dies. 

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's my point is that I think it could be added just as easily to the pie. The wine is coming from a central source as well & we know they didn't poison the whole lot of it, it would've been the individual serving of wine that Joff was drinking. 

You mean, the whole flagon? As in, a serving man/main was walking around with a poisoned flagon?

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

ETA: how would the poisoner know Tyrion was going to leave & wasn't going to eat the pie? He couldn't leave actually, until the feast was over. 

Well, Tyrion and Sansa both got up, which is a clear signal they are going somewhere (e.g. the privy, or, rather predictably, change Tyrion's clothes). We know from the later accounts that at this point of the feast, a lot of people were actually leaving their places. So, it really wouldn't make sense to poison the pie after Tyrion and Sansa got up because of a considerable risk they wouldn't be eating it.

- But why do you insist that it was the pie that had to be poisoned? It does not correspond to the description of the way the poison is used and it is quite late into the feast and Tyrion may not want to eat any more, while he is bound to continue drinking, so why not his wine instead?

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

When else? Like at all, could they have conspired? Sansa gets the hairnet in acok and Tyrwll only shows up in asos, it had to be at the meeting Tyrion arranged, nothing else is possible.

You mean, we never see LF where he is not supposed to be? Really?

And do we even know that he personally told Olenna about the strangler and how to smuggle it to her? What if she turned to an intermediary who, unbeknowst to her, was on LF's paylist?

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

All eyes were on the three dwarfs and their king, none at the random waiters or the color of one piece of dessert.

The dwarfs were no longer there and the show of cutting the pie was also over. And we don't care about other people's eyes, it's Tyrion's eyes on the plate right before him, which really isn't where you want your supposed victim's eyes to be.

And BTW, the pigeon pie wasn't a dessert. It was one of the courses, freshly brought in just like the previous courses had been, and it was still hot, i.e. freshly cut.

 

19 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

  Choking on liquid is hardly a good way to disguise murder by means of this poison. 

Funny that this is the way the maesters describe its functioning.

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Unless theyre drunk or fighting. Penny and her brother were excellent distractions

Who were no longer there when the pie was served.

 

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18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, IMO, for Martin to come back to this issue after ~ 20 years and 2 huge books and introduce a new bit of information regarding how the poison works just to have a big “A-HA GOTCHA!” moment would be very bad writing and a massive asspull, and he’s neither a bad writer nor someone who does asspulls like this. 

No, I definitely wouldn't want ASOIAIF The Last Jedied :wacko:

18 hours ago, teej6 said:

After Joffrey cuts the pie, he comes back, Tyrion refills the chalice that up until then was sitting unattended (everyone’s attention including Tyrion’s was on the cutting of the pie) on the table. Joffrey drinks quite a bit of the wine, then talks about the pie, eats the pie while still holding on to the cup, talks some more, drinks more wine and begins to choke. 

Beg your pardon, there is no second refilling. 

18 hours ago, teej6 said:

So the crystal should have been dropped into the chalice while it was left unattended on the table. Margaery is on Joffrey’s arm most of this time and is close enough to drop the crystal into the empty chalice on the table. If not her, the only other Tyrells who are close enough are Garlan and Leonette. Considering where the chalice was on the dais, I don’t see anyone but Tyrion (not him of course), Margaery, Garlan, Leonette, or the serving man who served the pie, being close enough to drop the poison into it. The other option (which I think unlikely) would be the flagon that Tyrion took from the serving girl had poisoned wine already in it.  But then somehow Joffrey had a very delayed reaction to the poison and the serving girl would have had to remove that flagon quickly so no one else could/ would drink from it. But I don’t think this is what happened. I rather think it was one of the three Tyrells I mentioned above that placed the crystal in the chalice while it sat unattended on the table. Yes, I too like Garlan and don’t want to see him involved in this plot but then again the Tyrells are shown to be a close knit and calculating bunch.

I don't think a server would have been involved in regicide, that's a very risky business. You need either a family member, or someone whose services to you have been faithful for years. The serving staff is handpicked by Cersei, I don't think Tyrells had an opportunity to get one of their own into such a position.

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