Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Pedro Luiz

Purple Wedding, Finally Solved.

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

You mean, the whole flagon? As in, a serving man/main was walking around with a poisoned flagon?

I mean that the whole flagon was not poisoned, it was Joff's 'serving' that was poisoned right? The point I'm making is (while I understand there are other things that can be argued against the pie) arguing that the entire pie would need poisoned is the same as arguing the entire flagon would need poisoned. Neither of which are realistic. If the wine is poisoned it's Joff's chalice of wine that gets the poison, if it's the pie, it's Tyrion's piece of pie that gets it. 

6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

No distractions. Joffrey drinks from the wine that Tyrion has poured, goes cut the pie, the doves fly out. The pigeon pie is served, Tyrion and Sansa want to leave, Joffrey turns up, drinks, eats Tyrion's pie, starts to cough, dies. 

Joff is sort of making a spectacle of things though:

 

      A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon full of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said "You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet." He stood and offered her his hand. "Come."

      But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. "Uncle, where are you going? You're my cupbearer, remember?"

     "I need to change into fresh garb, Your Grace. May I have your leave?"

      "No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine."

       The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us." 

       "My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want..." His words broke up in a fit of coughing. 

I would think most eyes would be on the conversation between Joff & Tyrion, not the pie. Not a lot of time in between, but some. 

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, Tyrion and Sansa both got up, which is a clear signal they are going somewhere (e.g. the privy, or, rather predictably, change Tyrion's clothes). We know from the later accounts that at this point of the feast, a lot of people were actually leaving their places. So, it really wouldn't make sense to poison the pie after Tyrion and Sansa got up because of a considerable risk they wouldn't be eating it.

I don't think anyone had left yet. At any rate, they would presume he would return. He had to, it was his nephews wedding. I understand what you are saying but I don't think it breaks the case for the pie. 

16 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

- But why do you insist that it was the pie that had to be poisoned? It does not correspond to the description of the way the poison is used and it is quite late into the feast and Tyrion may not want to eat any more, while he is bound to continue drinking, so why not his wine instead?

Well, it's not so much I insist. I know there is a very real possibility that the wine was poisoned but the reason I can't shake the idea of the pie being poisoned is a few things. First & foremost because it was my initial impression, when I first read the scene. Sometimes those initial impressions are just hard to shake. Also, because he drinks the wine & seems fine, takes a bite of the pie & then starts coughing. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me for George to use the exact same poison the exact same way twice - (although I completely admit I could certainly be wrong in all of this) and lastly because everyone (in universe) seems to think it was the wine. I don't think it's ever stated it has to be in wine. 

So short answer - no particular reason it cannot be the wine, just a gut instinct/first impression, that could be entirely wrong, but I find enjoyable to bat around ideas about. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Master players don't leave powerful witnesses against them behind and free.  Neither Littlefinger or Olenna would do this.  

I did read your other comments.  While interesting, they just don't seem relevant.  My other observation is that you fail to mention House Florent, which the Tyrell's certainly failed to make an alliance with.  They secured house Florent's lands with the alliance to house Lannister.  Seems a bit quick to me to bet willy nilly killing Lannisters.  They are positioned well to bide their time, conserve their forces, and wait until the Lannister's enemies move against them (which happened in the Riverlands, something I don't think you'd fail to notice).  This is a strategy they've been great at, like what they did at Robert's rebellion.  Threaten few, form alliances and try not to engage your troops.  

Certainly their motive against Joffrey is established.  If you look at their motive against Tyrion objectively, it is weak at best, contrives at worst.

I am a chemical engineer.  I see plenty of ways this can be surmounted. 

Option 1: Place the stone in the pie before pouring on the relatively viscous lemon cream.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Option 2: The stone is heavier drop the stone onto the lemon cream, it settles to the bottom, barely leaving a hole, which quickly closes due to visco-elastic relaxation.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Option 3: it did leave a discoloration, but drunk-ass Joffrey didn't notice it.  Since Tyrion's accusers fixated on the wine, the pie was never examined. 

If the stone is placed near the end of the slice it maximizes the effectiveness.  What you wouldn't want to do is put the stone in the bowl of lemon cream and stir it, as that might leave swirl marks.   

One other thing... if the Tyrell's were involved, they would not be poisoning Joffrey's wine in any case, especially given that Marg was drinking from the same cup.  I don't think they were involved at all though, as you see from my answer above.  

What powerful witnesses? Each other? If one rats out the other, they both lose their heads. Mutual interest, not trust, is what keeps this plot together. And again, preventing Lady O from getting the poison until LF is safe and sound ensures she won't be able to double-cross him earlier. What's risky is relying on some trusted servant. No amount of trust will be enough once the servant realizes that he is expandable after he has performed this high crime for his master, and no amount of trust is enough to ensure that the servant will not tell all he knows to the Hand or the Queen beforehand.

The Florents are vassals to the Tyrells, so there is no need to make an alliance with them. The Florents did support Highgarden at the start of the war and then jumped to Stannis after Renly died. So with or without the Lannister alliance, the Florent lands were forfeit at that point. The Tyrells had plenty of men to defeat Stannis at King's Landing and then take the city for themselves; they didn't need the Lannisters to accomplish that. The main thing the alliance brought the Tyrells was a crown for Margaery. And even with the alliance, killing Tyrion doesn't prevent them from taking Florent lands and castles anyway.

The Tyrell motive against Joffrey is not well-established and crumbles like a house of cards upon the most rudimentary analysis. There is nothing in the text that suggests Joffrey is displeased with Margaery in any way, In fact, it shows the exact opposite. There is nothing that suggests there is an underlying hidden reason as to why he might be displeased with her, and there is nothing that suggests either Margaery or Lady O are even slightly worried about this. The motive for Tyrion is crystal clear, though: giving the north to Tywin gives him an army that could defeat the Reach, and this cannot be allowed to happen. To think otherwise would be to rewrite the character of Lady O as a nervous old grandma who cares about nothing but Margaery's happiness, rather than the sharp-eyed, experienced player of the Game of Thrones who is looking to protect the future of her entire house and everybody in the Reach.

Your option 3 is the correct one. But we don't need to worry too much about discoloring the pie filling because pigeon pie is already dark brown to purplish in color. It's not chicken pie. At best, the lemon cream would disguise any slight discoloration of the pie if Tyrion were to examine it before he eats it, which is unlikely because he would be expected to be quite drunk by then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

First & foremost because it was my initial impression, when I first read the scene.

I think that’s on purpose. And doubly so. First, b/c Martin knows that’s the most likely assumption most readers will make initially, so it fuzzies everything up [further]. Second, it may be the poisoner(s)’s goal to make people assume it was the pie. For instance, if I’m going to try to poison the king at his wedding feast, I would 1) try to make it look like an accident; choking during a feast would accomplish that. 2) try to have safeguards in case anyone suspects foul play. So if people assume it was the pie, and there’s some left, it can be tested. If the poison is in the wine, testing the pie will only “confirm” it was an accident. Of course, timing would be crucial, the poison would have to be dropped into the wine in sync w/ the pie (or whatever dish you want people to be suspicious of). And of course there are any number of things that could and did go wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think that’s on purpose. And doubly so. First, b/c Martin knows that’s the most likely assumption most readers will make initially, so it fuzzies everything up [further]. Second, it may be the poisoner(s)’s goal to make people assume it was the pie. For instance, if I’m going to try to poison the king at his wedding feast, I would 1) try to make it look like an accident; choking during a feast would accomplish that. 2) try to have safeguards in case anyone suspects foul play. So if people assume it was the pie, and there’s some left, it can be tested. If the poison is in the wine, testing the pie will only “confirm” it was an accident. Of course, timing would be crucial, the poison would have to be dropped into the wine in sync w/ the pie (or whatever dish you want people to be suspicious of). And of course there are any number of things that could and did go wrong. 

Yeah could be. If the poison was in the wine but was meant to make people look at the pie it didn't do a very good job though right? I mean maybe the readers have this initial impression, but in universe they all think it's the wine. 

It's just a muddy mess & I hate not knowing LOL I want every detail of every thing & even though I know I won't get that, at this point I'd settle for any detail of anything. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Nevets said:

@John Suburbs Tywin is no threat to the Tyrells.  The Tarbecks and Reynes were rebellious vassals and no vassals have given trouble since.  He attacked the Riverlands because its Lord's daughter kidnapped his son.  It was retaliation, pure and simple.  Unless the Tyrells do something stupid, they're safe.

Joffrey is a weak reed.   He is headstrong, inconstant, tyrannical, and just plain unreliable - not to mention abusive.  And in a few years Tommen - who likes Margaery - will come of age and be be in a position to help his wife's family.

When the plot was put into motion - before the Blackwater - Sansa wasn't the key to the North.  Robb was alive and well and likely to stay that way.  So there would have been zero reason to target Tyrion because no reason to think he will marry Sansa for the North.

If Sansa is arrested, the hairnet implicates her.  She has ample motive and her husband had threatened Joffrey.  Nothing she might say about Lady O adjusting it will change that.

We have had no indication that the strangler is administered any way but dissolved in wine despite ample opportunity to do so.  For example, Arya is getting a graduate course in poisons.  Alternate methods could be easily mentioned then - or at Tyrion's trial.

3

Tywin is a threat to everyone and everything. Just because they have an alliance with him now doesn't mean they won't be enemies later. He allied with the Riverlands and the Tullys (and the Starks) during Roberts Rebellion, and look at them now. Likewise, the Florents were Tyrell vassals at the start of the war and they were all ready to fight side-by-side against Lannisters, Stannis, Starks, but instead Tyrells ended up killing Florents on the Blackwater. Politics and alliances change with the wind, but family ties are strengthened year after year, as the Tyrells have shown in the Reach. Killing Tyrion removes an existential threat, not an immediate one.

"Unless the Tyrells do something stupid, they're safe." So in other words, unless they continue to do exactly as their new overlord tells them to do, they have no reason to fear his overwhelming military might. And you don't think that after them being the ones to have had the overwhelming military might for thousands of years, the Reach would not do anything to maintain their superiority? Think of it this way: if Russia were to suddenly take over Canada, Mexico, Japan, South Korea and Western Europe, do you think the United States would be content to say, "well, as long as we don't do anything to upset Russia, we're safe"?

A few years? You mean five years before he is ready to consummate, during which time the "marriage" can be set aside for any reason? And even then, it will be another three or four years after that before the regency is at an end and they can finally send Cersei packing. With Joffrey, Cersei is gone within a fortnight, and they will have all they need from him within the year: an heir to the throne. Within three years, they could have three heirs. Then they could get rid of Joff at any time, quietly, privately, not right in front of a thousand witnesses. Then Margaery rules outright as Queen Regent for the next decade or more, rather than merely serving as Tommen's consort. Surely, this is well worth the cost of a few bruises and a black eye. Plenty of queens have suffered far worse for their crowns.

And this is assuming Joffrey turns on Margaery, and as yet there is no reason why he should. We can see at the wedding that he is tickled pink at marrying Margy rather than dreary, mopey Sansa. Margaery is a hot 17yo and a master seductress to boot. She is going to take him into that wedding chamber and do things for him and to him that he can't even imagine right now. It will be a good long time before she has to worry about a cross word from him, let alone physical violence.

Finally, let's all realize that Joffrey does not just pull random ladies out of a crowd for a beat down on a whim. What happened to Sansa happened for reasons that are unique to Sansa, namely:

  • she is all alone in the capital; no family, no guards, no army to protect her
  • she has a history with Joffrey; she saw his humiliation on the Trident, and she is constantly doing and saying things to draw his ire
  • her family is in open rebellion to the crown and her brother is winning battles, killing Lannisters on Lannister soil. This was the purpose of the beating after Oxcross: to show any wavering lords that the Lanns are confident of victory and that backing the rebels is a bad idea

None of this applies to Margaery. So the idea that Joff will start beating Margaery just because he beat Sansa is as silly as saying he will execute Mace just because he executed Ned. Different people, different circumstances, different results. Again, maybe someday this will all change, but by then Margaery will be mother to the heir and will rule the 7K on Joffrey's death.

When the plot was put in motion, Lady Olenna was not involved. Her motivation to kill Tyrion did not arise until after Sansa married Tyrion (due to Littlefinger's machinations) and after the Red Wedding. The initial phase of the plot was all Littlefinger, who at this point was only interested in gaining Sansa. The primary goal was to find a safe place to keep the poison while still ensuring that it, Sansa and the eventual poisoner and target would be in the same place at the same time. Disguising it in a hairnet was the best way to accomplish this. As is LF's style, he planted the seeds and waited for them to bear fruit.

If Sansa was arrested and implicated through the hairnet, then it would be game over for Lady O and Littlefinger. No one, least of all Tywin, would believe that little Sansa, all by herself, with no money and no friends, could have commissioned this special hairnet with a trick clasp to hide the poison, let alone acquired this rare and expensive poison in the first place. And if she is the poisoner, there is no reason for her to parade the poison around on her head all night long anyway. So obviously, the hairnet would be to allow the actual poisoner to get the poison. So first, the obvious question would be, "where did you get the hairnet, my lady?" And she would immediately give up Dontos, who will be dead by now. Then, "who was at your hair that morning, my lady?" And quick as lightning, Sansa would say Lady Olenna, who also happened to be standing right behind everyone just before the poisoning started. From there, it's only a matter of time before she gives up Littlefinger. So, no, throwing Sansa under the bus by implicating her through the hairnet is the last thing either of the plotters would want to do, because that trail leads directly to them.

Simple facts indicate that the strangler can be dissolved in all kinds of things other than wine. Wine is the most effective manner, but it is certainly not the only one. First, it dissolves near-instantly in wine, which means it has a relatively weak crystalline structure. So like sugar and salt, which also dissolve in wine, it should easily dissolve, albeit more slowly, in hot, moist pie. Secondly, even if wine is needed, just read the text: Joffrey doesn't choke at all when he is taking the massive, multiple chugs of wine at first, but then eats the pie, drinks one more chug of wine, and starts choking within seconds -- just like Cressen. So there is your wine, right in Joffrey's mouth. If the plan had gone right, it would be Tyrion eating his pie and then drinking his wine -- same result.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah could be. If the poison was in the wine but was meant to make people look at the pie it didn't do a very good job though right? I mean maybe the readers have this initial impression, but in universe they all think it's the wine. 

To be sure. But you know what they say, “the best laid plans”... 

I do think that that line of thinking works quite well, given what we know. 

ASoS, Tyrion VIII

“His words broke up in a fit of coughing.
Margaery looked at him with concern. “Your Grace?”
“It’s, kof, the pie, noth—kof, pie.” Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. “I, kof, I can’t, kof kof kof kof . . . ” The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.
He’s choking,” Queen Margaery gasped.
Her grandmother moved to her side. “Help the poor boy!” the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size. “Dolts! Will you all stand about gaping? Help your king!

<snip>

“The High Septon knelt beside him. “Father Above, judge our good King Joffrey justly,” he intoned, beginning the prayer for the dead. Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, “He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw.”
“He did not choke.” Cersei’s voice was sharp as Ser Ilyn’s sword. “My son was poisoned.” She looked to the white knights standing helplessly around her. “Kingsguard, do your duty.”
“My lady?” said Ser Loras Tyrell, uncertain.
“Arrest my brother,” she commanded him. “He did this, the dwarf. Him and his little wife. They killed my son. Your king. Take them! Take them both!”

So, it starts w/ Margaery saying Joffrey is choking; then Olenna is yelling, telling people to do something, to help Joffrey - something she knows too well no one can. And when Joffrey dies, Alerie again says he choked on the pie

I suppose the Tyrells underestimated Cersei’s paranoia and her hatred of Tyrion, both of which would severely alter the outcome.

Quote

It's just a muddy mess & I hate not knowing LOL I want every detail of every thing & even though I know I won't get that, at this point I'd settle for any detail of anything. 

I know exactly what you mean! :lol:

Edited by kissdbyfire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I suppose the Tyrells underestimated Cersei’s paranoia and her hatred of Tyrion, both of which would severely alter the outcome.

Indeed! Regardless of who or what exactly happened, the intention was to make it look like an accident. Joff choked on his pie, or his food of some sort. But Cersei was having none of that. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I mean that the whole flagon was not poisoned, it was Joff's 'serving' that was poisoned right?

The chalice contained the whole flagon. However, this is a moot point - when Joffrey drank first, nothing happened, to the wine couldn't be poisoned yet. 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The point I'm making is (while I understand there are other things that can be argued against the pie) arguing that the entire pie would need poisoned is the same as arguing the entire flagon would need poisoned. Neither of which are realistic. If the wine is poisoned it's Joff's chalice of wine that gets the poison, if it's the pie, it's Tyrion's piece of pie that gets it. 

The problem we run into here is the logistics of poisoning that piece, as compared to the logistics of poisoning the wine.

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Joff is sort of making a spectacle of things though:

He is, but at that point, Tyrion is standing and making clear he wants to leave. Why put the poison into this particular portion which he may not eat if you can wait till he comes back and put it in something else? - Preferably, his wine cup, which would have been left on the table and no-one paying any attention to it

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think anyone had left yet. At any rate, they would presume he would return. He had to, it was his nephews wedding. I understand what you are saying but I don't think it breaks the case for the pie. 

That late in the feast, we had people standing and moving about, changing places, slipping off to the privy 

So yeah, people were leaving, for a while. So when the poisoner saw Tyrion get up, the reasonable assumption would be 'ah, a privy trip... he may not return to eat this course'.

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, it's not so much I insist. I know there is a very real possibility that the wine was poisoned but the reason I can't shake the idea of the pie being poisoned is a few things. First & foremost because it was my initial impression, when I first read the scene. Sometimes those initial impressions are just hard to shake. Also, because he drinks the wine & seems fine, takes a bite of the pie & then starts coughing.

I think the detailed description of the scene makes it sound longer than it actually was. 

Also, it is not necessarily the coughing when the poison takes effect - I suspect it's a moment earlier, when he complains that the pie is dry and needs some washing down.

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me for George to use the exact same poison the exact same way twice - (although I completely admit I could certainly be wrong in all of this)

Well, but he does say himself that he used a poison he had introduced earlier. And, he does work in that way - introduce something first, often in fleeting, and then use it fully.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

and lastly because everyone (in universe) seems to think it was the wine. I don't think it's ever stated it has to be in wine. 

It's in the Cressen prologue - he states how it is obtained and how it is used:  Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe.

If it could be dissolved in next to anything, it wouldn't be necessary to mention the wine. 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So short answer - no particular reason it cannot be the wine, just a gut instinct/first impression, that could be entirely wrong, but I find enjoyable to bat around ideas about. 

OK, so, for the sake of a mental exercise, let us start from the beginning: you want to poison Tyrion with strangler. Let's say you pick the wedding feast as an opportunity with tons of people and food around. There are going to be seventy-seven courses and lots of wine. How are you going to go about it and why wouldn't you drop it in his wine some time later in the feast when he is drunk and not paying attention?

(Just to reiterate: I claim that the moment to drop the strangler in Joff's wine had been determined in advance, during the cutting of the pie, when the cup would be left unattended and everybody would be watching Joff and Marge below the dais.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

He is, but at that point, Tyrion is standing and making clear he wants to leave. Why put the poison into this particular portion which he may not eat if you can wait till he comes back and put it in something else? - Preferably, his wine cup, which would have been left on the table and no-one paying any attention to it

If I were the poisoner my thought process would be that it's going to look more likely that the victim is choking on food, if he is indeed eating food. Most people don't choke on drink, at least not to their death. 

I don't think him standing to leave has much to do with it. He hadn't left yet & he would certainly have to return. 

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The problem we run into here is the logistics of poisoning that piece, as compared to the logistics of poisoning the wine.

It doesn't take long though right? As long as the person was close, they could get it in there. I would think the poisoner would need be flexible & take the opportunity when it arises. 

16 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That late in the feast, we had people standing and moving about, changing places, slipping off to the privy 

So yeah, people were leaving, for a while. So when the poisoner saw Tyrion get up, the reasonable assumption would be 'ah, a privy trip... he may not return to eat this course'.

Is that from GRRM? It's not in the chapter, is why I ask. I don't think it's reasonable to assume he may not return though. He will return, he must. It's his nephews wedding. Whether or not he would eat this course would be a chance the poisoner would take with anything. 

17 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I think the detailed description of the scene makes it sound longer than it actually was. 

Also, it is not necessarily the coughing when the poison takes effect - I suspect it's a moment earlier, when he complains that the pie is dry and needs some washing down.

Yeah, the detail does probably make it seem longer than it was. I don't think it was impossible though. 

We don't a lot about it but Cressen seemed to feel the effects immediately. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Well, but he does say himself that he used a poison he had introduced earlier. And, he does work in that way - introduce something first, often in fleeting, and then use it fully.

Yeah for sure, I know he used the same poison I just meant to use the strangler twice, to kill someone via their wine seems redundant to me. Not outrageous, obviously & it certainly could be the case - that's just one of the reasons I look elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

It's in the Cressen prologue - he states how it is obtained and how it is used:  Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe.

If it could be dissolved in next to anything, it wouldn't be necessary to mention the wine. 

 

Sure, it says dissolved in wine it will do this but it doesn't say it has to be dissolved in wine. For instance, I would imagine any liquid would do but they don't say dissolved in water or dissolved in liquid. I think the important part of that sentence is that it needs to be dissolved to be activated. 

I think it's said they way it is because most often they drink wine. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

OK, so, for the sake of a mental exercise, let us start from the beginning: you want to poison Tyrion with strangler. Let's say you pick the wedding feast as an opportunity with tons of people and food around. There are going to be seventy-seven courses and lots of wine. How are you going to go about it and why wouldn't you drop it in his wine some time later in the feast when he is drunk and not paying attention?

Well, I suppose if it were me, I wouldn't be set on putting it in any particular thing, I would have to use the opportunity presented to me. If I happened to have an opportunity to drop it in his wine I would do that, if I had an opportunity to put it in his pie, I would do that. I wouldn't let an opportunity pass betting on waiting until he got drunk & wasn't paying attention because that leaves too much up to chance, IMO. What if he doesn't get drunk? 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

(Just to reiterate: I claim that the moment to drop the strangler in Joff's wine had been determined in advance, during the cutting of the pie, when the cup would be left unattended and everybody would be watching Joff and Marge below the dais.)

Certainly & I have no qualms with this, I agree it could happen & maybe did happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Beg your pardon, there is no second refilling. 

You are right, no refilling.

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep...”

The point I was making was that the cup was unattended for a time while everyone’s attention was elsewhere. And the only ones who had access or were in proximity to the cup were Tyrion, Sansa, Garlan, Leonette, and perhaps Margaery. We can rule out Tyrion and Sansa so then it leaves us with only the three Tyrells. 

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

don't think a server would have been involved in regicide, that's a very risky business. You need either a family member, or someone whose services to you have been faithful for years. The serving staff is handpicked by Cersei, I don't think Tyrells had an opportunity to get one of their own into such a position.

That’s why I said unlikely :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If I were the poisoner my thought process would be that it's going to look more likely that the victim is choking on food, if he is indeed eating food. Most people don't choke on drink, at least not to their death. 

Yeah but don't forget about the setting - feast - where people are eating most of the time and drink wine while munching something. With Cressen, it was rather obvious to the witnesses that there must have been something wrong with the wine that killed him but didn't harm Mel because no other drink or food was involved. Whereas, during a meal, people would just assume that there was a morsel, a crumb, in his mouth, left from what he had been eating.

 

Quote

Is that from GRRM? It's not in the chapter, is why I ask.

It's from a Jaime chapter where he interviews his fellow KG about what happened.

 

Quote

I don't think it's reasonable to assume he may not return though. He will return, he must. It's his nephews wedding. Whether or not he would eat this course would be a chance the poisoner would take with anything. 

I guess I didn't express my thought train clearly. Yes, he must return, or at least he should. Can you rely, though, that the course will still be there waiting for him? The servers take away the leftovers to make space for clean plates and new courses. Whereas, wine cups aren't going anywhere, only keep being refilled, and people are bound to keep drinking even if they don't want to eat any more.

Quote

Sure, it says dissolved in wine it will do this but it doesn't say it has to be dissolved in wine. For instance, I would imagine any liquid would do but they don't say dissolved in water or dissolved in liquid. I think the important part of that sentence is that it needs to be dissolved to be activated. 

If that were the case, wine really wouldn't be mentioned. Doesn't necessarily mean it has to be only and solely wine but it suggests that it cannot be just any liquid. Could be due to the colour, but could be that it reacts with alcohol or some other components present in wine, and not in water or beer. Or perhaps it wouldn't dissolve fast enough in other stuff. What the "dissolved" in wine part says is that this is the usual way to use it.

Quote

What if he doesn't get drunk? 

You don't need him dead drunk, just less alert than at the beginning of the feast.

7 hours ago, teej6 said:

it leaves us with only the three Tyrells. 

And Butterbumps, the faithful servant.

- This is not my original idea (I thought Leonette, the sweet pregnant wife, as the least obvious, and the Tyrell ladies seem a closely-knit bunch) but I find it very compelling - nobody pays attention to his antics and he is able to get the poison in the cup without actually getting near to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You mean, we never see LF where he is not supposed to be? Really?

And do we even know that he personally told Olenna about the strangler and how to smuggle it to her? What if she turned to an intermediary who, unbeknowst to her, was on LF's paylist?

Timing wont work. I dont trust Petyr but I trust time lol. Like when else? Unless you think they talked in KL, after Sansa got her hairnet but that happend in acok so it doesnt add up, plus who plots in front of a bunch of spiders?

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 What if she turned to an intermediary who, unbeknowst to her, was on LF's paylist?

Like whom? Butterbumps or Garlen? Theyre on the same time table as Olenna

 

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The dwarfs were no longer there and the show of cutting the pie was also over. And we don't care about other people's eyes, it's Tyrion's eyes on the plate right before him, which really isn't where you want your supposed victim's eyes to be.

And BTW, the pigeon pie wasn't a dessert. It was one of the courses, freshly brought in just like the previous courses had been, and it was still hot, i.e. freshly cut.

Penny and her brother left, but the emotions they stirred up in Tyrion and Joff were still prevalent.

Dunk describes it as a wedding pie, which makes me think of a wedding cake, which is dessert

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

No, I definitely wouldn't want ASOIAIF The Last Jedied :wacko:

I dont see how Aegon back from the dead is much different. I mean, it was always called the First Order, writing was on the wall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah but don't forget about the setting - feast - where people are eating most of the time and drink wine while munching something. With Cressen, it was rather obvious to the witnesses that there must have been something wrong with the wine that killed him but didn't harm Mel because no other drink or food was involved. Whereas, during a meal, people would just assume that there was a morsel, a crumb, in his mouth, left from what he had been eating.

Yeah possibly. I'm just thinking, if it were me, what my thought process would be. I personally would think it better for the person to actually be eating food when seemingly choking on food rather than relying on no one paying enough attention to know if they had actually just eaten food or hoping there was a crumb or morsel left in his mouth. 

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It's from a Jaime chapter where he interviews his fellow KG about what happened

Interesting. It's not noted in the PW chapter at all that people are beginning to leave & Tyrion notes prior to this that no one is allowed to leave until the feast is over. That's why he asks Joff's permission to go change. 

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

guess I didn't express my thought train clearly. Yes, he must return, or at least he should. Can you rely, though, that the course will still be there waiting for him? The servers take away the leftovers to make space for clean plates and new courses. Whereas, wine cups aren't going anywhere, only keep being refilled, and people are bound to keep drinking even if they don't want to eat any more

Fair enough. I see your point here. It's not impossible but it may be something I wouldn't want to count on. 

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If that were the case, wine really wouldn't be mentioned. Doesn't necessarily mean it has to be only and solely wine but it suggests that it cannot be just any liquid. Could be due to the colour, but could be that it reacts with alcohol or some other components present in wine, and not in water or beer. Or perhaps it wouldn't dissolve fast enough in other stuff. What the "dissolved" in wine part says is that this is the usual way to use it.

I would argue that if the important ingredient was alcohol it would say that. 

You could be absolutely right but I don't read that as "this is the usual way to use it" but more as "this is what happens when it's put in wine; it dissolves"

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You don't need him dead drunk, just less alert than at the beginning of the feast

But it's not just him right? We need other people not to see either. So it's not extremely helpful to have the victim be less alert, it would be somewhat helpful. More though we need everyone to not be looking at what we are doing. We need a distraction, a commotion, something else for people to look at. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, teej6 said:

You are right, no refilling.

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep...”

The point I was making was that the cup was unattended for a time while everyone’s attention was elsewhere. And the only ones who had access or were in proximity to the cup were Tyrion, Sansa, Garlan, Leonette, and perhaps Margaery. We can rule out Tyrion and Sansa so then it leaves us with only the three Tyrells. 

That’s why I said unlikely :D

We can rule out Garlan and Leonette as well. Observe:

Quote

. . . Sansa must have poisoned him. Joff practically put his cup down in her lap, and he'd given her ample reason.

This is obviously hyperbole on Tyrion's part, but it does show that the cup was nearer to Sansa than anyone else. So with Tyrion sitting on one side of Sansa, who was sitting on the other? It couldn't have been either  Garlan or Leonette, because earlier we are told:

Quote

"If I am ever Hand again, the first thing I'll do is hang all the singers," Tyrion said, too loudly.

Lady Leonette laughed lightly beside him, and Ser Garlan leaned over to say, "A valiant deed undone is no less valiant."

So now we have the relative seating order: Sansa-Tyrion-Leonette-Garlan, or vice versa. Either way, Garlan is three full places away from the chalice, while Leonette, a slight, small woman, is two places away. Neither of them could have reached across Tyrion, across Sansa, and dropped the poison without being seen.

Margaery, meanwhile, had a split second at best to drop the poison just before Joffrey placed it on the table. Which means that Lady O would had to have given it to her just on the off chance that such an opportunity were to present itself. And then Margaery would had to have had a death wish in order for her to call Joffrey back to her side so they can share a toast with the wine that she herself has just poisoned.

All of this points up the fact that no one could have poisoned the wine. The cup is right in front of Sansa's face the whole time. So no trusted servant, no unnamed Tyrell loyalist sitting next to her, nobody, no how, no way could reach the rim of a three-foot chalice that is directly in front of Sansa without being seen. It just didn't happen. The poison was in the pie according to all of the actual facts in the book.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

All of this points up the fact that no one could have poisoned the wine. The cup is right in front of Sansa's face the whole time. So no trusted servant, no unnamed Tyrell loyalist sitting next to her, nobody, no how, no way could reach the rim of a three-foot chalice that is directly in front of Sansa without being seen. It just didn't happen. The poison was in the pie according to all of the actual facts in the book.

And what facts are these? I’ve yet to hear any convincing fact that the poison was in the pie. As for Sansa, she was distracted by Ilyn Payne’s sword to pay any attention to the cup.

Tyrion was already standing up and he and Sansa were making a “retreat” when they caught Joffrey’s attention again.

Quote

He stood and offered her his hand. “Come.” But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. “Uncle, where are you going? You’re my cupbearer, remember?” “I need to change into fresh garb, Your Grace. May I have your leave?” “No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine.” The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff

We do not have a map of the dais or whether Tyrion/Sansa were already away from their seats, or what Garlan’s reach was to the cup. So unless we have actual textual evidence that shows/ states that Garlan or any of of the other Tyrells couldn’t reach the cup, I’ll stick to the more plausible poisoned wine theory than the far fetched pie poisoning one, and all for what? To kill Tyrion, someone who could be killed in many other ways.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, teej6 said:

And what facts are these? I’ve yet to hear any convincing fact that the poison was in the pie. As for Sansa, she was distracted by Ilyn Payne’s sword to pay any attention to the cup.

Same here. As a matter of fact, I haven’t seen any “facts” to support the idea that the poison was in the pie, convincing or otherwise. 

8 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Tyrion was already standing up and he and Sansa were making a “retreat” when they caught Joffrey’s attention again.

We do not have a map of the dais or whether Tyrion/Sansa were already away from their seats, or what Garlan’s reach was to the cup. So unless we have actual textual evidence that shows/ states that Garlan or any of of the other Tyrells couldn’t reach the cup, I’ll stick to the more plausible poisoned wine theory than the far fetched pie poisoning one, and all for what? To kill Tyrion, someone who could be killed in many other ways.   

Agree w/ all, and the bold especially stands out. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, teej6 said:

And what facts are these? I’ve yet to hear any convincing fact that the poison was in the pie. As for Sansa, she was distracted by Ilyn Payne’s sword to pay any attention to the cup.

Tyrion was already standing up and he and Sansa were making a “retreat” when they caught Joffrey’s attention again.

We do not have a map of the dais or whether Tyrion/Sansa were already away from their seats, or what Garlan’s reach was to the cup. So unless we have actual textual evidence that shows/ states that Garlan or any of of the other Tyrells couldn’t reach the cup, I’ll stick to the more plausible poisoned wine theory than the far fetched pie poisoning one, and all for what? To kill Tyrion, someone who could be killed in many other ways.   

The fact is Cressen drinks a half-swallow of unremarkable-looking wine and drops in five seconds while Joffrey drinks multiple chugs of wine that is supposed to be so thoroughly poisoned it has turned deep purple, and yet he shows no reaction in five seconds, or ten, or 15, only the slightest kof at 20, and doesn't drop until about the 25- or 30-second mark. Coincidentally, though, this is approximately five seconds after he washed the poisoned pie into his throat with wine, exactly like Cressen.

Even if Sansa is looking at the sword, the poisoner would have to know ahead of time that Joffrey would call on Ser Illyn to hand over the sword, which is something that cannot be predicted. And even then, she is still standing there, right in front of the cup, which is a good arm's length into the table. So someone would have to squeeze past her, reach to the rim, which is three feet above the table, drop the poison, and step back, all without Sansa or anybody else seeing this. Impossible, and the risk is so great that no one in their right mind would attempt such a thing.

Yes, everybody was standing during the entire cutting ceremony, all at their places at the table. I'm not sure the point you're trying to make here.

Yes, Tyrion turned to Sansa and asked her to leave. "Before they could make their retreat" is vague, so did Joffrey return before they took a step? Two steps? I would think certainly less than 10. But this is also irrelevant because no one could possible predict that they would do this, or that Joffrey would douse Tyrion with wine in the first place. So there is absolutely no way this could have been the plan.

With the pie, there is no guesswork. Lady Olenna orchestrated this entire event, so she knows exactly which slice is going to Tyrion and exactly where it will be the moment the doves take flight. And she also has a near-certain chance of knowing where he will take his one and only bite: the pointy end, which is also the easiest to poison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

And let's face it, who in their right mind, in trying to poison Tyrion, would do it with a PIE under cover of Tyrion being too drunk to notice?

Any sane person would poison his FECKING WINE!   :cheers:

OK, but what sane person would intentionally give the victim a giant three foot chalice that is not only multiple orders of magnitude more difficult to poison than a normal cup but it also intended to be shared with the very person that the poisoner is trying to protect?

Tyrion does not have to be too drunk to notice. Pigeon pie filling is already dark brown, even purplish. So nobody, drunk or sober, is going to make a deep inspection of what is a routine, obligatory bite of pie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

multiple orders of magnitude

Hyperbole much? That means hundreds or thousands of times more difficult....dropping a grain of the Strangler into one cup is as easy as it is into another, and considerably easier than into a pie. I think the three-foot chalice is just a literary device to rule out Tyrion being able to reach it at the moment it was poisoned, just before Joff's big chugging, purple-chinned quaff. But enough full-sized people were standing and milling around to give us a cast of suspects.

25 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

intended to be shared with the very person that the poisoner is trying to protect? 

Who is no innocent ingenue, she is part of the plot: if she didn't drop it in herself, she would be tipped off to when exactly it was.

I find the whole pie-poisoned-to-kill-Tyrion theory is such a reach*, the arguments are akin to Ptolemaic epicycles compared to the Keplerian simplicity of wine-poisoned-to-kill-Joff heliocentrism.

 

ETA: * pun not intended, but enjoy anyway :cheers:

Edited by Rufus Snow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...