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They're both Azor Ahai, that's why!


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Hey, sorry if this "idea's" already been discussed elsewhere -- I do come here just about everyday, but do not recall it ever being discussed -- but I have had this funny idea about Azor Ahai for, well, years now, and, true or false, I'd like to finally let it go :-)

So here it is. We all know about Azor Ahai and the way prophecy drives some characters to act and, in some way, drives the story forward. Now, more specifically, we know that based off "visions" and whatnot, Melisandre used to believe Stannis is/would be Azor Ahai, a sentiment that's apparently been a bit shaken as of late through various inner thoughts such as "I pray for a glimpse of azor ahai but all He shows me is Snow".

This got me thinking that perhaps Jon Snow and Stannis are, in a way, both Azor Ahai, but not as two separate entities.... let me explain what I actually mean by that. First, let me state I am in the "Jon is dead/will be ressurected" camp. This matters because:

(a) I think Jon is dead;

(b) I think Jon needs to be brought back (story-wise);

(c) I think Stannis is right in saying that kings need to sacrifice for their kingdoms, not the other way around;

(d) I think Melisandre incorrectly interpreting a vision is one thing, but, I think the vision actually "evolving" to suggest one character over the other is quite different, and quite puzzling also;

(e) If the show is any indication and 


Shireen does end up burned at the stake, as a sacrificial offering

I think this could actually give Stannis the proper motivation (or set him up in the right state of mind) to resort to extreme measures to accomplish what he feels is his duty.

Thus, in an effort to conjure some story development that would make sense of all of the above, I think that:

(a) Stannis will somehow understand that in order for the realm to be saved, Jon must come back;

(b) Due to the current circumstances (Jon is dead, like, very dead), through Melisandre's craft, the only way of saving Jon is through the sacrifice of his own soul in a blood magic-ish ritual;

(c) Stannis will be in a mental state where he would perform such self-sacrifice willingly;

(c) As Stannis soul will fuel Jon's ressurection, and be part of it -- in a way -- Melisandre will have been right in her belief/inklings of belief that both Stannis and Jon were Azor Ahai.

Now, I don't know what degree of tinfoilness this constitutes, and quite frankly I don't care, I just thought it could be nice to discuss it. I don't feel this "theory" is perfect in that, at the very least, I am assuming that Jon's continued existence matters, which is far from given (might be wishful thinking on my part, idk). All in all, I feel like all of this has poetic resonance, something which in my book provides the theory with some limited credibility, but that is far from enough, I know.

So, what do you think? Better explanations (other than the classic "Melisandre is a bad diviner of literally everything")?

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I've definitely heard crazier theories, haha.

The only way I see Stannis sacrificing himself for Jon is for the following to occur: 

-Stannis returns from the battle of ice alive, at the very least. Result of battle probably doesn't matter too much.

-Mel resurrects Jon.

-Stannis has a change of heart seeing a dead man brought back to life along with seeing the new found loyalty that Jon commands. 

-SOMETHING happens! Jon probably has to get killed or mortally wounded (AGAIN).

-Stannis realizes that Jon is a true leader who men rally behind as well the fact that he is becoming more and more irrelevant. 

-Stannis the man-is does the most noble deed in the entirety of ASoIaF and sacrifices his own life for Jon. 


For the sake of supporting my very loose prediction based on the current conversation, I'd say Stannis loses the battle of ice and heads back to the wall defeated and uncertain of his future claim to the iron throne given his most recent loss. He realizes he needs Jon to lead the wildlings, available northern men, and
(some) NW brothers to head south with him to take on Ramsey if he has any chance of retaking Winterfell and thus give a shred of credibility to the strength of his campaign. All that happens, they fight, and Jon gets mortally wounded or dies. Stannis gives up his life for Jon's maybe. :dunno:

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I have lined up all the evidence in the books so far, which have made me come to the conclusion that Azor Ahai is not one, not two, but three people. 

People also confuse the Prince that was Promised with Azor Ahai (They think they are the same, which i doubt). 

I think Jon Snow is the Prince that was Promised and that he doesn't truly die, the readers just have to believe he did, just like with 2 other characters so far, which perfectly lines up. 

Dany is the Stallion That Mounts the World (Like Maester Aemon said, the prophecies don't make a huge difference in genders, which made him to believe Dany is the Prince That was Promised), so the Stallion bit might also be a red herring. We were also believed the first time that she burned too death. 

Davos Seaworth is Lightbringer. Everything lines up perfectly for him to be it (Supposedly died after the Battle of Blackwater, supposedly died in White Harbor). Thats 2 times already. There is more evidence in the books. So Davos has to die a third time (Or we are to believed he has) and then is reborn as Lightbringer (Due to certain events going to happen).

Yes, Stannis might play a part, but he is nothing more than a red herring to misdirect us and take focus away from the ones currently closest to him: Jon and Davos. 

If Stannis is gonna sacrifice himself for someone, its gonna be for Davos, not for Jon (He bascially owes Davos his life, while he doesn't owe Jon anything yet). 

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  • 1 month later...

@Lord Daedrunk: I agree with most of what you said, with maybe 1 or 2 main exceptions. If Jon is to come back in a "fuller" way than Beric or Cat ever did, I feel that this sort of feat would require something more than just Mel doing her stuff and bringing him back. Hence, perhaps, the need for this gesture of utter selflessness, dutifulness and sacrifice I was alluring to: the free offering of king's blood and one's soul. I guess we'll see, although I'm not sure dying twice and coming back every time is the kind of "plot armor" GRRM endorses.

@nickdt: I'm not sure I understand how the "Davos is lightbringer" part makes any sense. You seem to suggest this is prefigured in multiple places in text, but I am unsure what exactly you are referring to... care to expand a bit on that?

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  • 2 weeks later...


There is a passage in one of the books (After the Battle of the Blackwater), where Davos and one of Selyse's uncles are imprisoned at Dragonstone. When Davos is taken away, the uncle says Don't take away the Light. 

There is also the thing that the readers are supposed to believe that Davos has died twice (Once after the Blackwater, once at White Harbor). Lightbringer was forged three times. 

Azor Ahai Prophecy

After a long summer, when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world

He shall be born again amidst smoke and salt

He shall wake dragons out of stone

He shall draw from the fire a burning sword, Lightbringer

2 out of three, apply to Davos - Born again Amidst Smoke (Wildfire on the Blackwater), and Salt (The Blackwater

He Shall wake Dragons out of Stone - This applies to Dragonstone. Davos advice made Stannis go aid the Wall, so in essence, he woke a Dragon (Stannis), out of Stone (Stannis didn't want to fight anymore after his loss at the Blackwater). 

So Davos has to die (Or we are believed that he needs to die again), in order to activate Lightbringer. 

However, it can also mean three things that had a huge impact on his life

1. Losing his fingers

2. Losing his eldest sons at the Blackwater (Which clearly formed him)

3. Losing Shireen, who he loves like a daughter. 

Then Shireen will activate Davos, who as Lightbringer, aids Azor Ahai. 

But the reason why i think Davos is Azor Ahai or Lightbringer, is that he keeps mentioning he isn't a fighter. However, he is a survivor and he is lowborn himself (Which he hasn't forgotten), which means lowborns might rally behind him easier than behind some highborn lord. 

I think people are taking Azor Ahai being one person or Lightbringer being a Sword way to literal. 

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