Rhaego? Really?

[Rufus Snow]

So much depends on how you interpret the various prophecies, but....

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

He was not a man to be refused. Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marywn, Alleras, and the other novice listened. "Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy . . . her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, nor the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall."

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

As far as I can see, Rhaego has been bitten off and spat out. Part of the tale is to beware of prophecies and signs....

[The Map Guy]

8 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Yes, even while writing that I knew this was the one caveat, so props for seizing on it.  However, I agree with @punzerknacker that Dany's agency as a female who creates her own power base would be narratively damaged by her son reappearing, so I don't put the probability anywhere near yours. 

It depends how the story is told ... if alive-Rhaego is suppose to challenge Dany's authority in a "gotcha" moment, its not really impressive story-telling.

But ...... if alive-2-year-old-Rhaego appears in the story, where Daenerys has to promptly choose between her dragons and her son ... that would be good story telling. A great conflict with the heart type story ... sort of like Edmure Tully choosing between Riverrun and his baby son.

 

I bump Rhaego to being alive at 100% now. I found the foreshadowing of this in the ASOIAF books, as well as satisfying Top Secret Theory's Rosemary's Baby requirement. I'll add the details to the Dark Sister Rebellion theory ... when I write it.
 

But a preview of some fan-fiction:
Right before Dany sails to Westeros, Quaithe appears & reveals that 3-year old Rhaego is alive and is held hostage by her.
Dany must voluntarily be a captive of Quaithe or else she will execute Rhaego.
Dany also must agree to control Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion to Quaithe's commands.
Dany agrees to meet Quaithe alone.
In person, she sees Rhaego at knife-point and becomes extremely conflicted with this, as well as giving up her dragons.
Daenerys passes out due to the shock of everything.

Late that night, she tossed and turned, dreaming of what she needs.
She needs Khal Drogo, who appears in her dream upon a fiery steed.
A dreamy Khal Drogo reminds Daenerys what happened the last time she trusted a maegi.
And she made it this far without Rhaego.
Even then, Rhaego may have been brainwashed by Quaithe already, losing him again anyways,
Drogo tells Dany that if she looks back, she is lost.

Dany knows what to do now, she WILL NOT lose her dragons.
Dany wakes up and everything is on fire.
Viserion came out of nowhere and torched up everyone, including Rhaego and Quaithe.

Dany accepts the situation, as she was going to give up Rhaego anyways in this hard decision.
She then presses on her Westerosi invasion by going West, after make this pit-stop East with Quaithe.

Evidence?
I have none!
Just kidding!
Approved TV HotU changes versus ACOK HotU:

Spoiler

I also like how Pyat Pree got his ass torched in the end of TV HotU, something that didn't happen in the books.
Besides, ACOK HotU was never about Dany anyways.
At least HBO GoT HotU is about Dany.

 

And if anyone is asking why Viserion is the one that torches everyone (including Quaithe) ... it is because Daenerys is holding out for a hero!!

Also:

"Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back [don't listen to Quaithe or you'll be lost Dany!] and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."
"Quaithe?" Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily. "Khaleesi?" murmured Jhiqui, rubbing her eyes. Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest corners. There was no sign of a woman in a red lacquer mask. "Khaleesi, are you unwell?" asked Jhiqui.
"A dream." Dany shook her head. "I dreamed a dream, no more. Go back to sleep. All of us, go back to sleep." Yet try as she might, sleep would not come again.
{Daenerys III ASOS}

[Damon_Tor]

Not only is Rhaego alive, he is so obviously alive it's frankly confusing to me why so few people have come to that conclusion. I feel like I'm the one guy in the Chicken Boo cartoon that can tell that he's a chicken.

I haven't been on these forums in forever, not sure is my signature is still functional, but there should be a link there to a topic I posted on the matter ages ago.

But it's all a moot point: the books will never be finished, and we all know it. So he's Schrodinger's baby right now, both alive and dead, and as we will never observe his state he will remain in that superposition forever.

[The Map Guy]

15 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Not only is Rhaego alive, he is so obviously alive it's frankly confusing to me why so few people have come to that conclusion. I feel like I'm the one guy in the Chicken Boo cartoon that can tell that he's a chicken.

I haven't been on these forums in forever, not sure is my signature is still functional, but there should be a link there to a topic I posted on the matter ages ago.

Borrowing this from https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80080-could-rhaego-be-alive/

Thanks.

Quote

All Jorah has to say on the matter is what "the women" say. What women? The Dothraki healers were afraid to even come near the tent, remember? How long after the birth did "the women" see the child? Were they preparing the corpse for burning? Or is "what they say" just gossip?

OMG Jorah is in on it!!! Jorah knows Rhaego is alive too!

"Weak? I am strong, Jorah." To please him, she reclined on a pile of cushions. "Tell me how my child died."
"He never lived, my princess. The women say …" He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.
"Tell me. Tell me what the women say."
He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. "They say the child was …"
"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."
Darkness, Dany thought. The terrible darkness sweeping up behind to devour her. If she looked back she was lost. "My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."
"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."
"Only shadows," Ser Jorah husked, but Dany could hear the doubt in his voice. "I saw, maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows. [you mean dancing with Quaithe??]"

{Daenerys IX AGOT}

Jorah never admitted seeing stillborn-Rhaego! He kept saying "The women say". He is feeling guilty for lying to Dany.
Jorah that bastard! He let them take Rhaego! Probably for a deal.
Now, this is exactly like Rosemary's Baby!
Rosemary = Daenerys
Guy = Jorah

Movie Spoiler:

Spoiler

Guy (Rosemary's husband), was in on it the entire time! He let the cult take Rosemary's son for some type of deal with the devil.

 

15 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

So he's Schrodinger's baby right now, both alive and dead,

HA!
 

15 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

But it's all a moot point: the books will never be finished

I'm sure they will be finished. He is probably writing TWOW and ADOS altogether.

[kissdbyfire]

43 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I’m sure they will be finished. He is probably writing TWOW and ADOS altogether

He’s not, as he’s already said several times.

And Rhaego is dead as a doornail. 

[BlackLightning]

I'm not saying @Megorova is wrong or even insane. Although Rhaego is likely dead (with Jorah likely being complicit in the death given how reluctant he is to tell her what had happened and given the fact that he is an lying opportunist), there is not only no corpse but there was no funeral of any kind. No one outside of Jorah and MMD has ever seen the body. And that is assuming that even Jorah saw the body.

Rhaego could very well be alive somewhere.

But Rhaego just popping up out of nowhere alive cheats and slanders Daenerys. Daenerys is a Queen on HER own merits and she fights for HER rights and HER kingdom on HER terms. She is not a queen consort or a queen mother. Her claim to fame is not her husband, not her children, not her brother and not even her father. Even though her father and brother pass down her right to rule, her power and her claim is hers and hers alone.

To make Rhaego alive would mean that the world would see Daenerys as a woman who is fighting and campaigning for her son instead of fighting and campaigning for herself. That's what sets her apart from Catelyn and Cersei. It's what makes her unique. Yes, GRRM loves a good twist and reversal but this one wouldn't even be a good twist that makes sense. Not with the trajectory of Daenerys' story.

Not only does Rhaego being alive completely change Daenerys' story for the worst (she had to lose something; Bran lost his home, his parents, his brother and the use of his lower body, Cersei lost her firstborn child, Jaime lost his hand and his ego, Sansa has lost her dream, Arya lost her identity, etc.) and makes the past events of Daenerys' story irrelevant and void....

...but it also changes the entire story for the worst. The people of Westeros will view her completely differently when she arrives in Westeros with a baby who will likely be viewed as a bastard, her followers can turn against her in favor of her son who they can groom and control, she has additional baggage she needs to look after, she can't lead armies of savage, hardcore men from the front like she could do so single and childfree, etc.

Or maybe she can. Idk

If Rhaego is alive, then he must either die soon or not be kept in the shadows until the very end of the series where his survival is depicted in the epilogue maybe.

As a matter of fact, @The Map Guy had a great idea about what could happen in The Winds of Winter if Rhaego is alive. Quaithe, however, is the one person who ever tried to help Dany out of the kindness of her own heart and not for any personal gain. So, while it is unsurprising that Quaithe would try to counter MMD's sorcery and help Dany survive the birth, I doubt that Quaithe would deal with her so treacherously and disrespectfully. Although if Quaithe is Shiera Seastar and if she did betray Dany, then there's hardly a better treason of blood than that.

If Rhaego was taken, it was by another group of women tied to MMD. Maybe they are all Lhazareen. Maybe these women (and maybe men) are based out of Valyria, Asshai or YiTi or some other exotic far eastern place. And Dany has a chapter that takes place therein with them where she tries to get Rhaego back, is given one helluva ultimatum, decides against it but is unable to act anyways due to some catastrophe outside of her control.

Having to grieve the death of Rhaego all over again after being given false hope would definitely break Dany down and make her more ruthless towards those who would defy/oppose her, particularly the magical ones and the ones who play games of thrones.

Or Dany -- being the subversive queen who does the opposite of what everyone expects her to do -- could just kill the kidnappers and all witnesses only to keep Rhaego hidden as a means of protecting the both of them, securing her mission and ensuring the survival of House Targaryen no matter what.

 

Or Dany could just accidentally meet her son in Vaes Dothrak without knowing who he is and go on her merry way.

Either of those scenarios could work. But not one where Dany is now having to carry around a baby across an entire continent that's waging war against her. She's barely making it as it is; adding a child to it is not a good idea.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/23/2020 at 5:29 AM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I think Rhaego's death serves for Daenerys getting the dragons and us understanding the whole "If I look back I am lost". I believe Dany refuses to look back because she refuses to admit that she was responsible for her son's death. She prefers to blame it on MMD or Jorah. This is why I believe he remains dead.

I disagree here.

Dany is not responsible for Rhaego's death. Just like how Sansa is not responsible for her father's death and how Bran is not responsible for the fall of Winterfell.

The three of them were very naive, they were deceived or overpowered and didn't even have that much power and agency to begin with.

Rhaego's death is not Dany's fault. MMD was gaslighting her into thinking that it was her fault but it isn't because MMD led her to believe that all she required was Drogo's horse. Reread the text. MMD said or implied nothing about her needing to kill Rhaego so Drogo's life can be "saved."

The whole king's blood requirement for blood magic wasn't even revealed to us until what? A Storm of Swords?

[Endymion I Targaryen]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I disagree here.

Dany is not responsible for Rhaego's death. Just like how Sansa is not responsible for her father's death and how Bran is not responsible for the fall of Winterfell.

The three of them were very naive, they were deceived or overpowered and didn't even have that much power and agency to begin with.

Rhaego's death is not Dany's fault. MMD was gaslighting her into thinking that it was her fault but it isn't because MMD led her to believe that all she required was Drogo's horse. Reread the text. MMD said or implied nothing about her needing to kill Rhaego so Drogo's life can be "saved."

The whole king's blood requirement for blood magic wasn't even revealed to us until what? A Storm of Swords?

I mean she is responsible for Rhaego's death along with MMD. Not 100% responsible but not innocent. MMD never says who is needed to be killed so Drogo's life can be saved (either Rhaego or the horse) and Daenerys never asks since it is not her life. MMD wanted to do this and Daenerys because of naivety and ignorance (despite being warned not to do it). The result is the same and the Dany's good intentions do not cancel the result or her later refusal to admit her part of responsibility.

[The Map Guy]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And Rhaego is dead as a doornail. 

Where is the body???

Besides, we all know why you are on Team Dead-Rhaego ...

Quote

 

On 3/21/2020 at 2:55 PM, Megorova said:
Sure. And if I am right, then what kind of post will you write?

On 3/21/2020 at 3:01 PM, kissdbyfire said:

If you are proven right I will post:

”Megorova, you are a genius w/o equal in all the universes” “

And right after posting I will make a huge bonfire in my garden, burn all my ASoIaF books, and get as shitfaced as I possibly can.

 

All hail Megorova!

 

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

16 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I’m sure they will be finished. He is probably writing TWOW and ADOS altogether

He’s not, as he’s already said several times.

I think with the terrible HBO ending and with TWOW having A LOT of things different would leave the fandom in some sort of Twilight Zone. I can't really explain it. But GRRM would be better off releasing both books together. Besides ADOS is the easiest to write since he had it all planned out since AGOT (originally a trilogy). TWOW is just the connector between ADWD (5th of 7 books, with new plots) and ADOS (planned with AGOT trilogy).

 

14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

As a matter of fact, @The Map Guy had a great idea about what could happen in The Winds of Winter if Rhaego is alive. Quaithe, however, is the one person who ever tried to help Dany out of the kindness of her own heart and not for any personal gain.

Thanks. But we don't know if Quaithe is helping Dany for Dany. In Rosemary's Baby, Rosemary is assisted throughout her pregnancy by random people, but it was all an act. They had their own agenda, and disguised it with their over-ambitious kindness.

Quaithe needs an endgame to the story, and she wants Dany's dragons.
The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, "I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons." {Daenerys I ACOK}

Quaithe is Shera Seastar, but even with her Targaryen blood, she cannot bind Dany's baby dragons herself. Quaithe would need Dany to do it for her, but how do you control Dany without her baby dragons fighting back?
TV Stuff:

Spoiler

In HBO GoT, the HotU showed Dany being chained, but her dragons fought back for her.

So how do you control Dany? Perhaps holding baby-Rhaego hostage in exchange for Dany's cooperation.

But with everything that Dany has accomplished and is about to head to Westeros, how does she move forward after finding out that Rhaego is alive?

Does she do a 0, ignore Rhaego & Quaithe's demands, and just go forward to Westeros?

Does she do a 180 and turn back on everything she has accomplished? (stupid D&D!)

Or does she do a 360, confront the Rhaego-situation, end it whatever way possible, and move forward to Westeros?

This would be a great story, a conflict with the heart.

 

Off-topic:

For those confused by "180" & "360", here is Charles Dance to explain:

 

[Mithras]

On 3/21/2020 at 5:51 PM, Megorova said:

Rhaego is one of the most important characters of ASOIAF, without him the three-headed dragon won't be completed, and the Long Night will never end. Even though GRRM had to ditch his original plan with 5 years time skip, he is still continuing with his original plans concerning Rhaego - as the second dragonrider (Rhaegal's), as the Stallion that mounts the world, who is Khal of khals, and the great shepherd to whom all people of the world will be his herd. It's all a parallel to the Book of Revelation, the part of the Bible about the End of the World, and second coming of Jesus, who will lead an army of horsemen, who will be the King of kings and Lord of lords. Quaithe is a thread that connects Dany to Rhaego. Quaithe appeared in every book with Dany's POV. She was assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth in AGOT, she met Dany in person in ACOK, she appeared on board of Balerion ship with Dany in ASOS, she came to Dany twice in ADWD, and the last time was on a night prior Dany was found by Khal Pono. It was Pono who took Rhaego. Rhaego's kidnapping by his Dothraki relatives is the treason for blood. Dany met Pono again, and next she will be reunited with Rhaego. GRRM is completing the circle. 

Rhaego is not a character, no more than that hrakkar's pelt Dany wears.

And for anyone wondering, this is Rhaego in the comic book version. "It" looks like "it" does not need a dragon to be a dragonrider (or would have, had he lived).

 

[The Map Guy]

15 hours ago, Mithras said:

Rhaego is not a character, no more than that hrakkar's pelt Dany wears.

Nah ... Daenerys' white lion hrakkar with Viserion keeping her cool in her journey IS a character

Look how bad-ass it is in the comics:
https://www.midtowncomics.com/product/1684327

15 hours ago, Mithras said:

And for anyone wondering, this is Rhaego in the comic book version. "It" looks like "it" does not need a dragon to be a dragonrider (or would have, had he lived).

It is nice to see more comic pics. But unlike the TV show, the comics maintain the POV storytelling that the books do ... which comes with the "unreliable narrator".

In the comic books, we see that the flash-back events of TOJ is true because it comes from Ned, who was at TOJ physically.

But for Dany and stillborn Rhaego, Dany was unconscious and never saw Rhaego's body.
What you see in the comic except of Dany's POV is what she imagined what happened.
So where is Rhaego's body?

Besides, if that is really Rhaego in the comics, NO WAY that huge 6-month-sized baby was in Dany's belly the whole entire time! And NO WAY that huge newborn coming out of Dany's v***** would not kill her!

It is more probable that Dany and Drogo, who are healthy young individuals, gave birth to a healthy normal sized newborn ... and it was stolen away. Why must you trust Mirri Maz Duur's words again if she has proven herself not trust-worthy?

[Darth Sidious]

Daenerys Targaryen already has a lot going on in her arc without Rhaego suddenly making an appearance.  The Dothraki have no reason to save and care for Rhaego.  Their ways are different from the culture of Westeros.  Yes, Rhaego is a Targaryen prince and an heir to the throne of Westeros.  He is seen that way by Daenerys and Ser Jorah.  The Dothraki see him differently.  He has to prove his worth before the Dothraki deem him worthy.  They are not a sentimental people.  He will not be saved for the sake of his father.  The Dothraki are not like that.  He will be seen as worthy only after he proves his physical prowess.  He's just another baby boy without a father.  To sneak him away from the Khaleesi and then assume the risk of raising him, that's not the Dothraki.  I'm afraid Rhaego is dead and his soul is now Rhaegal's.  

[Megorova]

On 4/11/2020 at 11:53 AM, Mithras said:

And for anyone wondering, this is Rhaego in the comic book version.

The comic book version is the same as the show - it's NOT a book. GRRM is writing a book, and what will happen and happened in that book (books) is not the same thing as happened in the comics or in the show.

[Yaya]

 AYE AYE MEGOROVA ... 100% with you on that

i wish that stupid show never ever was made.