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Aebram

Rhaego? Really?

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From time to time in this forum,  I see posts that mention, in passing, the idea that Dany's son Rhaego didn't die, that he will appear later in the story.  Apologies if I missed something, but I don't think I've seen any posts specifically about this theory.

Since we never actually saw the birth or the child, it's certainly possible that Mirri Maz Dur lied to everyone, and Rhaego still lives.  But what's the motivation? MMD clearly is no fan of Drogo or Dany. What would she (or anyone else, for tnat matter) have to gain by stealing the baby and keeping it alive in secret?

Edited by Aebram

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My assumption is that Rhaego did die, but his spirit/soul was passed into one of the dragon eggs.  After all when a mystical old crone foretells that you will be the stallion that mounts the world, she's usually right.  It just sometimes takes some strange turns to make her right.

And what stallion would be better suited to mount the world than a dragon?

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29 minutes ago, Aebram said:

But what's the motivation? MMD clearly is no fan of Drogo or Dany. What would she (or anyone else, for tnat matter) have to gain by stealing the baby and keeping it alive in secret?

After Rhaego was born, he was taken away by self-proclaimed Khal Pono. Mirri Maz Duur and Jorah lied to Dany that her baby died. Because that was the only way for them to prevent her from going after Pono, to take back her child. Rhaego's kidnapping is the treason for blood, one of three treasons predicted by the Undying. Dothraki Khals and their bloodriders, or ko, are kin to each other, and they refer to each other as blood of my blood. Pono kidnappen Rhaego for his blood, in a sense that Rhaego is half-Dothraki and also he is in certain sense is Pono's kin. Furthermore, Rhaego is the Stallion that mounts the world. All Dothraki for many thousands years were waiting for his birth. For Dothraki he is like Jesus Christ for Christians. Vaes Dothrak was build specifically for the Stallion. It is his city. All Dothraki of all khalasars are his people. He is Khal of khals, how the second Jesus from the Book of Revelation was King of kings and Lord of lords. 

The three-headed dragon from the prophecy seems to be GRRM's parallel to the Holy Trinity from the Bible, only he created the Mother, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Jon) instead of Biblical the Father, etc. There are many parallels between Dany, Rhaego, Jon and Jesus, Mother Mary, second Jesus and his mother - the Woman clothed in the sun. While fAegon and Golden Company are a parallels to Antichrist (the Beast out of the sea with many heads, one of wich was mortally wounded and then healed itself, and people who saw this miracle believed that he is the Saviour and worshiped him, and made an image of him to worship it - which is a parallel to the scene about mummers dragon, that Dany saw in the House of the Undying), Petyr Baelish is a parallel to the Beast out of the earth/the False Prophet, who had dragon's voice and lamb's horns (because Littlefinger is a descendant of Aegon IV Targaryen and Falena Stokeworth (her House's sigil is a lamb with a chalice in its paw, which is also an antipode parallel to Biblical Agnus Dei, Lamb of God/Jesus)), Varys is a parallel to Biblical Dragon/Satan who was chasing the Woman clothed in the sun, Euron Greyjoy and Cersei are parallels to the Scarlet Beast and the Great Harlot.

When Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, she was assisted by shadowbinder Quaithe/Shiera Seastar and maester Marwyn. Mirri Maz Duur didn't sacrificed Rhaego's life, she did the opposite - she saved him, because she was serving to her ex-teacher, Quaithe/Shiera. Mirri summoned both of her ex-teachers into Drogo's tent to help Dany thru her baby's birth, and they came there by using glass candles, which enabled them to do something similar to astral projecting and teleport thru space, while unseen by other people, and appear only to those to whom they want to be seen (like Quaithe told Dany in ADWD, chapter Dany II).

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

When Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, she was assisted by shadowbinder Quaithe/Shiera Seastar and maester Marwyn.

Interesting theory, but where's the evidence for this?

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16 hours ago, Aebram said:

Interesting theory, but where's the evidence for this?

It's not a theory, it's a fact (Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, she was assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth, and Rhaego was born alive), because it is written in the book. Here:

Spoiler

Wings shadowed her fever dreams.

“You don’t want to wake the dragon, do you!”

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

“You don’t want to wake the dragon, do you!” She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. “Home,” she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

“…don’t want to wake the dragon, do you!”

Ser Jorah’s face was drawn and sorrowful. “Rhaegar was the last dragon,” he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. “The last dragon,” he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

“…don’t want to wake the dragon, do you!”

Viserys stood before her, screaming. “The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned.” The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. “I am the dragon and I will be crowned!” he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

“…don’t want to wake the dragon…”

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

“…don’t want to wake the dragon…”

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

“…want to wake the dragon…”

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

“…wake the dragon…”

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

“…the dragon…”

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

(<- two POVs together, Dany saw her own body thru Rhaego's eyes.)

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

First of all, in that dream there are two points of view. One POV is Dany's, in this POV is depicted what is going on in Drogo's tent. The other POV is Rhaego's, this POV depicts what is going on inside Dany's body, what is seen and felt by unborn Rhaego, who is going thru birth canal. The switching between POVs is happening after the phrase "wake the dragon". In the spoiler above, Rhaego's POV is in bold text.

There are some elements in that dream, things that are not possible, thus they are not what they seemed to be.

Drogo didn't had sex with Dany. The real Drogo was barely consciousness and on a verge of death, thus incapable of having sex. It wasn't Viserys who was twisting Dany's nipples, because Viserys died months ago. It wasn't Jorah who said "Rhaegar was the last dragon", at that time Jorah was in a different tent, and he was recuperating from his wounds, either sleeping or unconsciousness, thus the person, that Dany saw as Jorah, was someone else. Same with Viserys and Drogo. This "Drogo" wasn't having sex with Dany, and "Viserys" wasn't abusing her, when he was twisting her nipples. Nipple stimulation is a natural method of inducing labor and to strengthen contraptions. Dany's labor began at night, thus there's no way that in the beginning of her dream there were stars in a daylight sky. It was happening at night, and she was in Drogo's tent, thus she was unable to see the sky. And stars don't smile, and don't whisper. There was no long halls with high arches, there was no ghosts lining the hallway, because all of that was happening inside Drogo's tent, not in some castle or a dungeon. Thus all those things mean something else. And when (or if) you will notice a pattern, then you will be able to interpret what was actually going on. But even though I explained to other posters, step by step, what was going on, they were still unable to figure it out. That's why I'm saying - wait for TWOW, when Rhaego alive and healthy will reapear in the books, maybe then other readers will be able to go back to AGOT, and while reading that "dream", to finally see what was actually going on. Thus - wait for TWOW.

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4 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Because of the abandoning of the 5 year gap, even Rickon risks falling into irrelevance. Who cares about a toddler?

Rhaego is one of the most important characters of ASOIAF, without him the three-headed dragon won't be completed, and the Long Night will never end. Even though GRRM had to ditch his original plan with 5 years time skip, he is still continuing with his original plans concerning Rhaego - as the second dragonrider (Rhaegal's), as the Stallion that mounts the world, who is Khal of khals, and the great shepherd to whom all people of the world will be his herd. It's all a parallel to the Book of Revelation, the part of the Bible about the End of the World, and second coming of Jesus, who will lead an army of horsemen, who will be the King of kings and Lord of lords. Quaithe is a thread that connects Dany to Rhaego. Quaithe appeared in every book with Dany's POV. She was assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth in AGOT, she met Dany in person in ACOK, she appeared on board of Balerion ship with Dany in ASOS, she came to Dany twice in ADWD, and the last time was on a night prior Dany was found by Khal Pono. It was Pono who took Rhaego. Rhaego's kidnapping by his Dothraki relatives is the treason for blood. Dany met Pono again, and next she will be reunited with Rhaego. GRRM is completing the circle. 

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

It's not a theory, it's a fact

:rofl: :lmao: :lol: :laugh:

Be real, c’mon! That’s not even a theory, b/c it’s based on nothing from the text, only your wishful thinking. In other words, pure fan fic. And that’s fine, we can all indulge in a little fan fic/mental canon to pass the time and all that. But claiming it’s “not a theory” - which it isn’t, as I said above - “it’s a fact” is laughable and arrogant. I do hope you stick around after you’re proven totally wrong and do a public post about how wrong you were. It can be something very simple, direct and to the point, like this:

:whip:

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33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I do hope you stick around after you’re proven totally wrong and do a public post about how wrong you were.

Sure. And if I am right, then what kind of post will you write? ^_^

36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s not even a theory, b/c it’s based on nothing from the text, only your wishful thinking. In other words, pure fan fic. And that’s fine, we can all indulge in a little fan fic/mental canon to pass the time and all that. But claiming it’s “not a theory” - which it isn’t, as I said above - “it’s a fact” is laughable and arrogant.

What's arrogant in stating facts? If something was written in the book, then it is a fact. And it was written in AGOT that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she was with Dany (though not in person), when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego. It was written in a symbolical manner, nevertheless it was written there, by GRRM, who is the author, so he knows what is it that he is writing.

I'm so sure about my "theory" because it's not merely BASED on AGOT's text, it is WRITTEN there. What is written there, those symbolical visions, they can be differently interpreted by different readers, and some interpretations can be correct, while others could be wrong. When GRRM was writing those scenes, he had certain vision of what he wants to convey to readers, and what words to use for that. He wrote what he wrote, using method that he used, and "encoded" the facts in such a way, that they are not obvious, nevertheless they are still there in the text.

This is Shiera Seastar (AGOT, Dany IX): "the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky...  suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame...  Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one... After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.", (ADWD, Chapter 71): "the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear... “Where are you, Quaithe?Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. “Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice."

"HER MASK IS MADE OF STARLIGHT" <- this is the key to decrypt the code. If you still don't get it, then, as I already said many times - Wait for TWOW. :cheers:

 

I'm wondering what do you think will happen next in TWOW? If you so sure that Rhaego is dead, then who do you think will become the other two dragonriders? How Dany is going to make all those Dothraki to join her cause, and go with her to conquer Westeros? How Dany is going to defeat the Others? What is in the bigger picture? What's GRRM's End Game for ASOIAF?

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1 minute ago, Megorova said:

Sure. And if I am right, then what kind of post will you write? ^_^

If you are proven right I will post:

”Megorova, you are a genius w/o equal in all the universes” :bowdown:

And right after posting I will make a huge bonfire in my garden, burn all my ASoIaF books, and get as shitfaced as I possibly can. :P

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

What's arrogant in stating facts? If something was written in the book, then it is a fact.

Are you serious? You said your “theory” was not a theory but a fact. You weren’t talking about actual facts, but rather your interpretation of what’s in the books. That’s pretty arrogant in my book. 

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Dany didn't give birth to an adult. She gave birth to a baby. I'm not sure how toddler Rhaego is planning on riding a dragon and controlling it, or leading a khalasar when his language skills would be limited. This isn't Baby Yoda. Khal Pono could give a rat's ass about Drogo's son. He wouldn't take him and raise him, he would kill him if he doesn't sell him into slavery first. 

Rhaego is deader than dead. He is dust. When he died, the prophecy died with him. The end.

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On 3/20/2020 at 12:32 PM, Frey family reunion said:

My assumption is that Rhaego did die, but his spirit/soul was passed into one of the dragon eggs.  After all when a mystical old crone foretells that you will be the stallion that mounts the world, she's usually right.  It just sometimes takes some strange turns to make her right.

And what stallion would be better suited to mount the world than a dragon?

This. Rhaego's soul went into one of the dragons. 

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34 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Dany didn't give birth to an adult. She gave birth to a baby. I'm not sure how toddler Rhaego is planning on riding a dragon and controlling it, or leading a khalasar when his language skills would be limited. This isn't Baby Yoda. Khal Pono could give a rat's ass about Drogo's son. He wouldn't take him and raise him, he would kill him if he doesn't sell him into slavery first. 

Rhaego is deader than dead. He is dust. When he died, the prophecy died with him. The end.

I agree he is dead. However, the prophecy did not die with him.  It may not even be about him. The stallion who mounts the world, the Khal of khals will be a khaleesi.  Khaleesi and Drogon will mount the world and bring all of the khalasars together. 

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18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And right after posting I will make a huge bonfire in my garden, burn all my ASoIaF books

Wow, a ceremonial funeral for books, Targaryen style. "Other great houses might choose to bury their dead in the dark earth or sink them in the cold green sea, but the Targaryens were the blood of the dragon, and their ends were writ in flame." A bit overdramatic, no?

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you serious? You said your “theory” was not a theory but a fact. You weren’t talking about actual facts, but rather your interpretation of what’s in the books. That’s pretty arrogant in my book. 

Ok, I'll agree with you - I'm arrogant, and I'm a genius. We both won. ;)

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20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And right after posting I will make a huge bonfire in my garden, burn all my ASoIaF books, and get as shitfaced as I possibly can. :P

I literally just spit out my coffee in a coughing fit! That is the funniest/best thing I have read today, possibly days.

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On 3/20/2020 at 12:20 PM, Aebram said:

From time to time in this forum,  I see posts that mention, in passing, the idea that Dany's son Rhaego didn't die, that he will appear later in the story.  Apologies if I missed something, but I don't think I've seen any posts specifically about this theory.

Since we never actually saw the birth or the child, it's certainly possible that Mirri Maz Dur lied to everyone, and Rhaego still lives.  But what's the motivation? MMD clearly is no fan of Drogo or Dany. What would she (or anyone else, for tnat matter) have to gain by stealing the baby and keeping it alive in secret?

Very possible because this is George.  It doesn't make sense in the plot though. Dany saw him burn in her vision.  Dany's role is on the same path as that of Bran's.  Something very dear had to be lost in order for them to accept their roles. No chance of becoming a knight for Bran, no chance of fathering a child with Meera, no chance for a normal life.  For Dany, the lost of her husband and child. To the point, no chance of having a nuclear family. No red door. The red door is a mental concept of an innocent and simple life. Which is now impossible because she became Mhysa.  Knighthood is manhood to boys like Bran.  That is no longer possible.  Removing that option drove him to that tree.  Bringing Rhaego back to life would remove much of the lost for Dany. 

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