Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 So given how messed up most sexual relationships are in the story having a lot of incest, dubious consent as well as pedophilia, my question is what do you think is the healthiest relationship in the story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Ned and Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingin Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 That’s a difficult question. I’d say Ned+Cat or Davos+Marya . Maybe also Garlan Tyrell+Leonette? But we know very little of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 The ones we don't know nothing about. But if I had to choose I'd go with Ned and Cat, Daeron I and Mariah Martell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegant Woes Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Ned/Cat, Sam/Gilly, Oberyn/Ellaria, Davos/Marya are one of the few healthy couples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 20, 2020 Author Share Posted March 20, 2020 51 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said: Ned/Cat, Sam/Gilly, Oberyn/Ellaria, Davos/Marya are one of the few healthy couples. I dunno about Sam and Gilly, it kinda suffers from that whole dubious consent thing. As for Davod and Marya we don't really know that much other then Davos's obviously warped POV on things. Kinda surprised nobody mentioned Asha and Qarl. Sure there's the whole kicky stuff, but it seems to be another of the rare cases of healthy relationships. 3 hours ago, Gingin said: Garlan Tyrell+Leonette? But we know very little of them To be fair Garlan seems like a super nice guy, and the few details we do hear seem to put the marriage in a positive light, so all in all it's probably a pretty healthy one. As a side not Mace and Alerie seem to also be a good match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 We don’t know nearly enough about Davos and Marya’s relationship to judge it. Personally I’d go with Ned and Catelyn, though a case could be made for Baela Targaryen and Alyn Oakenfist. They were the perfect kind of crazy and adventurous that they made it through all their storms together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 No marriage should qualify here, because all of them are unequal (peasant marriages may not have the same gap in power, but we're not given a close look at them.) The husband has almost complete power over the wife. Power to hit her, rape her, make her obey his orders, control who she sees and where she resides, and so on. Asha and Qarl would also not really be considered equal or healthy by modern standards. Asha is a princess with a band of loyal followers who would follow anything she does, while Qarl is a nobody who Asha can have killed at any time. Sam and Gilly aren't either. Gilly is almost completely dependent on Sam, emotionally and physically. The most equal relationship in ASOIAF was probably Daeron Targaryen and Jeremy Norridge. They were squires of similar age who grew up together and fell in love. Aegon and his sisters as well, as Rhaenys and Visenya owned dragons and had the power to enact laws and pass decrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, Peach King said: No marriage should qualify here, because all of them are unequal (peasant marriages may not have the same gap in power, but we're not given a close look at them.) The husband has almost complete power over the wife. Power to hit her, rape her, make her obey his orders, control who she sees and where she resides, and so on. Asha and Qarl would also not really be considered equal or healthy by modern standards. Asha is a princess with a band of loyal followers who would follow anything she does, while Qarl is a nobody who Asha can have killed at any time. Sam and Gilly aren't either. Gilly is almost completely dependent on Sam, emotionally and physically. The most equal relationship in ASOIAF was probably Daeron Targaryen and Jeremy Norridge. They were squires of similar age who grew up together and fell in love. Aegon and his sisters as well, as Rhaenys and Visenya owned dragons and had the power to enact laws and pass decrees. Very good points about Westerosi marriage, but Aegon and his sisters don’t count under the original poster’s rules. Incest rules them out, no matter how compatible they are. And if it did count, Jaehaerys and Alysanne would have had the best relationship. They’re dragon riders, and they stood on equal footing. Jaehaerys was never unfaithful to her either, even when they were separated. I know technically he still had the marriage upper hand, as you say, but they still had a very healthy relationship and were able to argue and reconcile as equals because of their personalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, James Steller said: Very good points about Westerosi marriage, but Aegon and his sisters don’t count under the original poster’s rules. Incest rules them out, no matter how compatible they are. And if it did count, Jaehaerys and Alysanne would have had the best relationship. They’re dragon riders, and they stood on equal footing. Jaehaerys was never unfaithful to her either, even when they were separated. I know technically he still had the marriage upper hand, as you say, but they still had a very healthy relationship and were able to argue and reconcile as equals because of their personalities. I disagree! I think Aegon-Visenya-Rhaenys had a better relationship than Jaeherys and Alysanne. Alysanne had no power other than Jaeherys being willing to listen to her, while Visenya and Rhaenys had actual power of their own and were engaged in statecraft and ruling. Missed the point about incest being ruled out, thanks for pointing that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 24, 2020 Author Share Posted March 24, 2020 46 minutes ago, James Steller said: Baela Targaryen and Alyn Oakenfist. They were the perfect kind of crazy and adventurous that they made it through all their storms together. I dunno. Alyn did father 2 bastards with Baela's niece. 2 minutes ago, Peach King said: Visenya and Rhaenys had actual power of their own and were engaged in statecraft and ruling. I'm not sure they had any more power then Alysanne. Aegon did use their dragons more so that's why they had a bigger impact, but one must remember that Alysanne also had a massive impact by massively improving the lives of the Westerosi smallfolk (abolishing the First Night, making sure the population of KL had clean water). Alysanne's relationship with Jaehaerys was probably more equal given the circumstances of their marriage, were both sides had to work together and in unison to pull it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 19 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I'm not sure they had any more power then Alysanne. Aegon did use their dragons more so that's why they had a bigger impact, but one must remember that Alysanne also had a massive impact by massively improving the lives of the Westerosi smallfolk (abolishing the First Night, making sure the population of KL had clean water). Alysanne's relationship with Jaehaerys was probably more equal given the circumstances of their marriage, were both sides had to work together and in unison to pull it off. According to Archmaester Gyldayn, Alysanne had no authority to enact laws, issue decrees, make proclamations, or pass sentences. All she had was her influence over Jaeherys. If Jaeherys didn't listen to her, she would have no power. Meanwhile Visneya and Rhaenys were primarily the ones who governed the realm instead of Aegon, and Visenya founded institutions like the Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 24, 2020 Author Share Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Peach King said: Meanwhile Visneya and Rhaenys were primarily mthe ones who governed the realm instead of Aegon, and Visenya was able to found institutions like the Kingsguard. Yes but they still did it through Aegon. Both Alysanne and Aegon's wives only had power through their husband. And as I said, at least Alysanne was an active, willing and more importantly, necessary participant in the marriage. If Visenya or Rhaenys would have opposed to the marriages, they would be powerless to really stop it. If Alysanne was opposed she could just not run to Dragonstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Yes but they still did it through Aegon. Both Alysanne and Aegon's wives only had power through their husband. And as I said, at least Alysanne was an active, willing and more importantly, necessary participant in the marriage. If Visenya or Rhaenys would have opposed to the marriages, they would be powerless to really stop it. If Alysanne was opposed she could just not run to Dragonstone. But they didn't do it through Aegon they did it by themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 24, 2020 Author Share Posted March 24, 2020 Just now, Peach King said: But they didn't do it through Aegon they did it by themselves. I haven't read that part of F&B in a while, but I don't remember them explicitly stating they they did it all by their own authority. Like we are told how and why Visenya made the Kingsguard, but we aren't told whether she did the thing and asked Aegon to ratify it, or if she just did the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 23 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I haven't read that part of F&B in a while, but I don't remember them explicitly stating they they did it all by their own authority. Like we are told how and why Visenya made the Kingsguard, but we aren't told whether she did the thing and asked Aegon to ratify it, or if she just did the thing. They actually sat the throne and heard petitions, and ruled even without Aegon. Rhaenys established the Rule of Six. They were also warriors and field commanders. F&B makes a point that Alysanne was not a queen in her own right, while Rhaenys and Visenya were. EDIT: Found a relevant passage: The “rule of six,” now part of the common law, was established by Rhaenys as she sat the Iron Throne while the king was upon one of his progresses …After deliberating with the maesters and septons, Rhaenys declared that, whilst the gods made women to be dutiful to their husbands and so could be lawfully beaten, only six blows might ever be struck—one for each of the Seven, save the Stranger, who was death. Rhaenys didn't have to consult Aegon or get his approval to pass this law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I haven't read that part of F&B in a while, but I don't remember them explicitly stating they they did it all by their own authority. Like we are told how and why Visenya made the Kingsguard, but we aren't told whether she did the thing and asked Aegon to ratify it, or if she just did the thing. They didn't. We're specifically told that Alysanne never had real power, unlikely the OG Queens. Rhaenys enacted laws without her husbands leave and Aegon was noted to leave the rule of the Realm in their hands. Alysanne's power however was no different than Cersei's, both influenced, one for the very good and the other for the very bad, their husbands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 24, 2020 Author Share Posted March 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, Peach King said: They were also warriors and field commanders. Well to be fair Alysanne never had the opportunity to be a field commander. Had it come to war Jaehaerys would probably have used her as well. 5 minutes ago, Peach King said: They actually sat the throne and heard petitions, and ruled even without Aegon So they basically acted as regents for the King. Fair enough then, that's one place where they were in a position of more power then Alysanne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Peach King said: No marriage should qualify here, because all of them are unequal (peasant marriages may not have the same gap in power, but we're not given a close look at them.) The husband has almost complete power over the wife. Power to hit her, rape her, make her obey his orders, control who she sees and where she resides, and so on. Asha and Qarl would also not really be considered equal or healthy by modern standards. Asha is a princess with a band of loyal followers who would follow anything she does, while Qarl is a nobody who Asha can have killed at any time. Sam and Gilly aren't either. Gilly is almost completely dependent on Sam, emotionally and physically. The most equal relationship in ASOIAF was probably Daeron Targaryen and Jeremy Norridge. They were squires of similar age who grew up together and fell in love. Aegon and his sisters as well, as Rhaenys and Visenya owned dragons and had the power to enact laws and pass decrees. I would suggest that in that case, a marriage where the parties are roughly equals would qualify as healthy. Ned and Catelyn is such. I cannot imagine Ned harming Catelyn, and it appears to be a true partnership. By the way, with respect to Sam and Gilly, I think Gilly is the dominant one, at least for now. That could change, though; and it has its toxic aspects, so I would not call it particularly healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Nevets said: I would suggest that in that case, a marriage where the parties are roughly equals would qualify as healthy. Ned and Catelyn is such. I cannot imagine Ned harming Catelyn, and it appears to be a true partnership. By the way, with respect to Sam and Gilly, I think Gilly is the dominant one, at least for now. That could change, though; and it has its toxic aspects, so I would not call it particularly healthy. They're not equals- Catelyn has no legal power over Ned. They only appear to be equals because Ned listens to Catelyn. Ned could in fact shut Catelyn down whenever he wants and order her to do his will, which he did, when he told Catelyn to never speak of Jon Snow's origins to him, scaring her to such an extent she never brought it up again. Re: Gilly and Sam I mean that Gilly was so desperate to leave her abusive father that she is completely dependent upon Sam for protection and guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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