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Angel Eyes

Did Tywin order the Mountain to rape Elia and smash her head?

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A couple of reasons why he ordered Gregor Clegane to rape Elia and smash her head:

  • He's certainly not above such brutal orders, as ordering his garrison to gang-rape Tysha is evidence.
  • He never forgets any slight, as evidenced with the Reynes and Tarbecks and sacking King's Landing.
  • When confronted about the orders given to soldiers, he pussy-foots the issue; on the one hand he says to Tyrion that reining in soldiers is within the commander's responsibility, yet when Tywin's troops do similar things he says it's not his responsibility.

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I think he did. My #1 reason is because he meant for Cersei to marry Rhaegar, but that was taken from him. So at the end of the rebellion, the Targaryens were all but defeated (and it was almost all but certain Robert would replace him as King), he got his revenge and then married her to Robert. His eye was on the Throne and the Martells stole that from him. It was pure revenge.

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The brutality was incidental. Robert needed them out of the way and Tywin needed to prove his loyalty. Elia was less of a problem and could have been spared but Gregor is not a precise instrument. Set him loose and expect lots of collateral damage.  The Martells might be a little less upset about the whole thing. Elia would grieve for years but at least her brothers would be less upset.

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6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

A couple of reasons why he ordered Gregor Clegane to rape Elia and smash her head:

  • He's certainly not above such brutal orders, as ordering his garrison to gang-rape Tysha is evidence.

He's not punishing Tysha in this example. He is indifferent to her. She is used as a lesson to his son that nobility are above the smallfolk. That marrying a commoner he just met for sex is dumb as literally anyone could have sex with her.

Tywin's not a POV character so we'll never have his thoughts on the situation, but it does not seem the 'lesson' was for Tysha, but for Tyrion.  Tysha likely knew her place in the social order, Tyrion did not.

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:
  • He never forgets any slight, as evidenced with the Reynes and Tarbecks and sacking King's Landing.

eh? Those are both pretty bad examples.

He delayed for a year before getting involved in the War of the Five Kings. He only chose a side when one was the clear winner. This is not him acting on a slight, if it was he'd have joined the rebels much sooner.

The Reynes and Tarbecks chose rebellion. There was multiple times they could have surrendered, each time they chose not to. This is war, it is not acting on a slight.

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:
  • When confronted about the orders given to soldiers, he pussy-foots the issue; on the one hand he says to Tyrion that reining in soldiers is within the commander's responsibility, yet when Tywin's troops do similar things he says it's not his responsibility.

No, he does not say it was not his responsibility. You are creating a strawman here. He makes it clear that he did not know what he had in the Mountain and that he did not order the rape or death of Elia, but is more than clear he ordered the death of the children. He's not washing his hands of the involvement, nor does he claim it was not his fault. Just that he prioritized other things.

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He likely did order the murder of Elia, i doubt that he would admit it since it's just for the sake  of pettiness and he is above that. I don't think that he ordered the rape shenanigans but then again, it would not the first time for him to exercise sexual punishment to women who got in his way.

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I think he risked ordering her death (ordering the baby's death as monstrous and fucked up as it is, would not bring any consequences from Robert) but he knew what Clegane was and just omitted Elia entirely from the orders probably guessing what Clegane would do. As the OP said he never forgets a slight.

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I see no reason for Tywin to have been so specific to Gregor. And I might want to remind people that Gregor don't need an order to murder or rape. I don't recall Tywin giving orders to kill Ser Hugh at the tourney at King's Landing, nor to attack Loras Tyrell, or to rape the innkeeper's daughter or murder his wives, sister and father, brutalize Sandor and so on.

He did all those things on his own initiative and without Tywin having to order him to do it.

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As some other posters have said, I don't think he needed to. I don't see any reason not to take him at his word that Gregor likely did it because he wasn't ordered not to. 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't see any reason not to take him at his word that Gregor likely did it because he wasn't ordered not to. 

Yeah pretty much, though I think that he knew what Gregor was going to do. Given his ,,proclivities" it wouldn't require a genius to figure out what he would have done with Elia, and Tywin's lack of orders regarding Elia seems to confirm this. If he wanted her alive he would have just said so to Gregor. He may be a mad dog, but he is loyal. He would have had ample reason to do so, so all in all I think that while he didn't give the order he knew that Gregor would kill her, or at least hoped he would.

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He did not need to order specifics.  He knew what Ser Gregor would do. Maybe not the rape, but certainly the murder.

His comments to Tyrion make no sense, other than to give Tyrion the impression he's being taken into his father's confidence.  If you kill the children, you have to kill the mother as well.

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Tywin was smart enough to know what Gregor is like. Likewise, Gregor has served Tywin long enough to know what's expected of him.  They are both responsible for what happened.  A lot of people got used, abused, and killed that day.

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah pretty much, though I think that he knew what Gregor was going to do. Given his ,,proclivities" it wouldn't require a genius to figure out what he would have done with Elia, and Tywin's lack of orders regarding Elia seems to confirm this. If he wanted her alive he would have just said so to Gregor. He may be a mad dog, but he is loyal. He would have had ample reason to do so, so all in all I think that while he didn't give the order he knew that Gregor would kill her, or at least hoped he would.

Oh yeah, I think Tywin knew what the general outcome would be, if not all the details.

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21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

A couple of reasons why he ordered Gregor Clegane to rape Elia and smash her head:

  • He's certainly not above such brutal orders, as ordering his garrison to gang-rape Tysha is evidence.
  • He never forgets any slight, as evidenced with the Reynes and Tarbecks and sacking King's Landing.
  • When confronted about the orders given to soldiers, he pussy-foots the issue; on the one hand he says to Tyrion that reining in soldiers is within the commander's responsibility, yet when Tywin's troops do similar things he says it's not his responsibility.

I doubt it. He just needed them eliminated. The how of it was irrelevant. 

But here is a thought that I think few people have considered: Gregor may not have been the one to smash little Aegon's head in. Let's take a look at what he confessed to:

Quote

"Elia of Dorne," they all heard Ser Gregor say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. "I killer her screaming whelp." He thrust his free hand into Oberyn's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. "Then I raped her." Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinters of his teeth. "Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this."

So he killed Aegon, but at no time does he admit to smashing his face to a bloody pulp. But that turned out to be very fortuitous for Varys because the body could not be positively identified -- allowing him to sneak away with the real Aegon or present a plausible replacement for him later.

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50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So he killed Aegon, but at no time does he admit to smashing his face to a bloody pulp.

That's because he allegedly tore him out of his mother's arms and dashed his head against the wall. He didn't smash his face in like he did with Oberyn and Elia. Gregor is an eight foot tall monster and weighs over 400 lbs of muscle. Swinging a baby against a wall may have had the same sort of effect as him getting his head bashed in.

He is such a gross character. As far as characters that should have died and stayed dead, he is it.

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8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

He is such a gross character. As far as characters that should have died and stayed dead, he is it.

I've always found The Mountain an outlier in this series. In a world full of characters with dubious morality and hidden depths, The Mountain is a relatively simple character: he's a massive man who enjoys killing. End of story.

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I've always found The Mountain an outlier in this series. In a world full of characters with dubious morality and hidden depths, The Mountain is a relatively simple character: he's a massive man who enjoys killing. End of story.

To be fair he loves inflicting pain and suffering too. Real depth to the guy. had the painful death coming 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Probably not, as he has no reason to deny it to Tyrion while admitting to being behind the killing of her children.

I agree with you the he probably did not give such an order. Tywin needed and wanted Rhaegar's children dead. He didn't need any particular fate to befall Elia. Which doesn't mean he couldn't have given the order to rape and kill her. Tywin certainly carried grudges and that could include the death of Elia for "besting" Cersei in the contest for Rhaegar's hand. Still I think it unlikely.

I do, however, think he would have a reason for denying this to Tyrion if he did order it. He needs Tyrion still when he tells him of his order to kill the children, and the one thing that might set his son off concerning his conduct would be to know that he ordered another rape. Rape as punishment is too real for Tyrion to forget. The question is rather does Tywin know how thin the ice is with his relationship with Tyrion to know admitting his guilt would risk a rebellion in his son? It took Jaime's admission that Tysha was no whore paid to have sex with Tyrion, and so a victim of a brutal gang rape that Tywin forced his son to take part in to destroy their marriage to push Tyrion on a path to patricide. I would think Tywin knows enough about Tyrion to think admission to ordering rape is at least uncertain ground.

 

Edited by SFDanny

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

He did not need to order specifics.  He knew what Ser Gregor would do. Maybe not the rape, but certainly the murder.

His comments to Tyrion make no sense, other than to give Tyrion the impression he's being taken into his father's confidence.  If you kill the children, you have to kill the mother as well.

Why? The children were Targaryens and couldn't be suffered to live, else loyalists might plot rebellion in their name. Elia was no such threat, and could have been used to keep Dorne docile.

Anyway, I don't see any reason for Tywin to lie to Tyrion about this. If he thought Tyrion was not to be trusted with such information, telling him the truth about Gregor being Elia's killer was a bigger confession. This is the same chapter in which he tells Tyrion he won't be sacrificing Gregor to the Martells, so Tyrion knowing that truth would be more damning.

Even if Tywin didn't wish to tell Tyrion that he ordered Elia's rape, concealing that he ordered her death still makes no sense.

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23 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

The brutality was incidental. 

The brutality was deliberate. Tywin shows power through fear and brutality.

He claimed to not know what Gregor was back then. Ok, sounds like bullshit to me while taking into account the alleged story of his sister, compounded with the alleged story of Amory Lorch when another child was murdered. 

Ok, Tywin, he didnt know what he had, but we can assume that he had a rough fucking idea

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As some other posters have said, I don't think he needed to. I don't see any reason not to take him at his word that Gregor likely did it because he wasn't ordered not to. 

Word. Thats why he stressed that his orders went out of the way to not kill Catelyn, the next time he murdered a son in front of his mother. 

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