Did Tywin order the Mountain to rape Elia and smash her head?

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Why? The children were Targaryens and couldn't be suffered to live, else loyalists might plot rebellion in their name. Elia was no such threat, and could have been used to keep Dorne docile.

Anyway, I don't see any reason for Tywin to lie to Tyrion about this. If he thought Tyrion was not to be trusted with such information, telling him the truth about Gregor being Elia's killer was a bigger confession. This is the same chapter in which he tells Tyrion he won't be sacrificing Gregor to the Martells, so Tyrion knowing that truth would be more damning.

Even if Tywin didn't wish to tell Tyrion that he ordered Elia's rape, concealing that he ordered her death still makes no sense.

No mother will tolerate the murder of her own children.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

No mother will tolerate the murder of her own children.

Hardly a universal truth, but sure, it almost certainly applies to Elia. But I don't see your point. Do you think it impossible for Gregor and Lorch to kill the children without killing her? The sequence of events shows that it was possible, as she was murdered after her children. Or are you saying that she'd somehow get vengeance for it? I don't see how. She'd be a hostage. Or are you saying she'd kill herself? That could be prevented, but there's no certainty that she'd attempt to do so anyway. There are many, many people who have lost loved ones, even their own children, without killing themselves.

Maybe I'm just missing your point, but what Elia could tolerate is irrelevant, and the death of her children doesn't necessitate or imply her death.

[The Sleeper]

Sure, he did. He might not have been explicit in his commands, but he knew who he was sending. He makes a point of it, at some point earlier if using the right tool for the right job.

He frequently uses terror and brutality and always escalates. He has ordered rapes before.

As to why he lied about it, this is because Tywin likes to present himself as a rational, pragmatic man who does what he does for the sake of necessity. He can't very well admit the truth to Tyrion, can he?

[TPTWP Timett]

I never thought he did but one thing I always considered on rereads was Jamie's commands for Jeyne. I could see him ordering her death on those grounds any children she has anytime soon are threats. The fact that they aren't really Targs wouldn't matter.. Also this is still a warzone there's no guarantee the opportunity to rape her will even be a option.

[dsjj251]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:10 PM, Angel Eyes said:

A couple of reasons why he ordered Gregor Clegane to rape Elia and smash her head:

• He's certainly not above such brutal orders, as ordering his garrison to gang-rape Tysha is evidence.
• He never forgets any slight, as evidenced with the Reynes and Tarbecks and sacking King's Landing.
• When confronted about the orders given to soldiers, he pussy-foots the issue; on the one hand he says to Tyrion that reining in soldiers is within the commander's responsibility, yet when Tywin's troops do similar things he says it's not his responsibility.

Elia isnt dead, her body wasnt returned to Dorne with Prince Lewyn.  She is Lemore. 

 

Gregor smashed a random street women. 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Hardly a universal truth, but sure, it almost certainly applies to Elia. But I don't see your point. Do you think it impossible for Gregor and Lorch to kill the children without killing her? The sequence of events shows that it was possible, as she was murdered after her children. Or are you saying that she'd somehow get vengeance for it? I don't see how. She'd be a hostage. Or are you saying she'd kill herself? That could be prevented, but there's no certainty that she'd attempt to do so anyway. There are many, many people who have lost loved ones, even their own children, without killing themselves.

Maybe I'm just missing your point, but what Elia could tolerate is irrelevant, and the death of her children doesn't necessitate or imply her death.

My point is that any woman, especially a Dornish princess,  would want revenge for her murdered children.  The alternative would be to keep her as a prisoner for the rest of her life.  That's not something you can blame on brutal underlings, exceeding their instructions.   That's on the new regime, and a permanent embarrassment. 

Tywin can see all that.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Elia isnt dead, her body wasnt returned to Dorne with Prince Lewyn.  She is Lemore. 

 

Gregor smashed a random street women. 

The order would have been given no matter who it was.

[Angel Eyes]

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I doubt it. He just needed them eliminated. The how of it was irrelevant. 

But here is a thought that I think few people have considered: Gregor may not have been the one to smash little Aegon's head in. Let's take a look at what he confessed to:

So he killed Aegon, but at no time does he admit to smashing his face to a bloody pulp. But that turned out to be very fortuitous for Varys because the body could not be positively identified -- allowing him to sneak away with the real Aegon or present a plausible replacement for him later.

I wasn’t talking about Aegon’s head being smashed in, I was talking about Elia’s.

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

My point is that any woman, especially a Dornish princess,  would want revenge for her murdered children.

The same can be said for any brothers of murdered princess, or uncles of murdered children. Yet Tywin did nothing to the Martell brothers knowing full well how they'd feel.

Elia is a woman in pretty sexist world, even in Dorne. She's not going to be in a position to be seeking revenge, her brothers are.

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

 The alternative would be to keep her as a prisoner for the rest of her life.

No, they could send her home, or more likely, to the silent sisters.

Elia was a sickly woman to begin with, there is nothing in the books that suggests that she was someone to be feared, especially not in a pretty misogynistic society.

 

7 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Sure, he did. He might not have been explicit in his commands, but he knew who he was sending. He makes a point of it, at some point earlier if using the right tool for the right job.

Gregor was still a young man, his reputation was not yet set.

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

No mother will tolerate the murder of her own children.

Mothers frequently do as mothers were pretty powerless in the middle ages.

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I think the most revealing thing that Tywin tells Tyrion is that he did not tell Gregor to spare Elia. He says he doesn't even remember mentioning her to him. She was an afterthought, but at the same time, it wasn't a Crakehall or a Marbrand or some other bannerman who might balk at murdering to small children. He sent men he knew would not care about killing children. And if they don't care about that, then they will not care about killing the mother either.

I do think we have a great parallel in the current story with Cersei, Allar Deem, Barra and her mother. The two situation are extremely similar. 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That's because he allegedly tore him out of his mother's arms and dashed his head against the wall. He didn't smash his face in like he did with Oberyn and Elia. Gregor is an eight foot tall monster and weighs over 400 lbs of muscle. Swinging a baby against a wall may have had the same sort of effect as him getting his head bashed in.

He is such a gross character. As far as characters that should have died and stayed dead, he is it.

According to Ned and Kevan, eyewitnesses to the body that was laid before Robert Baratheon, Aegon's skull was a "red ruin" with nothing left of his face at all and only a few swatches of hair. So if Gregor did this, then he did smash his face in like he did with Oberyn and Elia, and in fact would probably have smashed his face into the wall multiple times. But he never admits to doing this, even though he admits destroying Elia's face.

I'm not say Gregor could not or did not do this, I'm just pointing out that this was very fortuitous for Varys' because it allowed him to either to hide the identity of the real prince Aegon or make it possible to claim an imposter as the real prince.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wasn’t talking about Aegon’s head being smashed in, I was talking about Elia’s.

Understood. I was just raising the possibility about Aegon, since we were on the subject.

[dsjj251]

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The order would have been given no matter who it was.

Yes and no, it changes the basis of the question and the situation. 

 

Killing Aegon makes sense. Killing Rhaenys makes sense. Killing Elia, not so much.  They could force her to take moon tea if they thought her to be pregnant. 

She was said to be killed because they couldnt very well have her and baby Aegon be known to have escaped. It wouldnt surprise me if all 3 escaped and crushing of the skulls was done entirely to no one could recognize that these werent the children. They couldnt find someone who looked like Elia in the capital 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

32 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

She was said to be killed because they couldnt very well have her and baby Aegon be known to have escaped. It wouldnt surprise me if all 3 escaped and crushing of the skulls was done entirely to no one could recognize that these werent the children. They couldnt find someone who looked like Elia in the capital 

Rhaenys was stabbed repeatedly half-hundred times by Tywin's other monster. She was recognizable.

[broken one]

On 3/23/2020 at 4:30 AM, Bernie Mac said:

He's not punishing Tysha in this example. He is indifferent to her. She is used as a lesson to his son that nobility are above the smallfolk.

I guess it was a lesson to Tysha too. Tywin disgraced his father's mistress in similar way (less brutal) just after lord tytos had died. it was a message to low born women "if you want lannister's gold that's the only way you may get it". In his eyes tysha was just another cunning parasite.

[dsjj251]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Rhaenys was stabbed repeatedly half-hundred times by Tywin's other monster. She was recognizable.

But doesnt World of Ice and Fire state that they dont really know who killed her ? Do we really know what her condition was ? Was she or even baby Aegon actually shown to Robert or just bodies wrapped in cloaks ?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

But doesnt World of Ice and Fire state that they dont really know who killed her ? Do we really know what her condition was ? Was she or even baby Aegon actually shown to Robert or just bodies wrapped in cloaks ?

I haven't read The World of Ice and Fire in a couple of years, so I don't remember whether it names Rhaenys's killer, but you have to bear in mind who Yandel is catering to. 

We are told explicitly in ASoS that Rhaenys was in Rhaegar's chambers, hiding under his bed, one floor above the nursery where Elia and Aegon were. We are also told explicitly by Tywin that it was Amory Lorch who murdered her. He stabbed her half a hundred times because she kicked him and would not stop screaming. 

The bodies of the children were laid below the Iron Throne, Kevan in his thoughts says that Rhaenys was recognizable but that Aegon was a faceless horror. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I haven't read The World of Ice and Fire in a couple of years, so I don't remember whether it names Rhaenys's killer, but you have to bear in mind who Yandel is catering to. 

Indeed. 

TWoIaF, The Fall of the Dragons - The End

“The Red Keep was soon breached, but in the chaos, misfortune soon fell upon Elia of Dorne and her children, Rhaenys and Aegon. It is tragic that the blood spilled in war may as readily be innocent as it is guilty, and that those who ravished and murdered Princess Elia escaped justice. It is not known who murdered Princess Rhaenys in her bed, or smashed the infant Prince Aegon’s head against a wall. Some whisper it was done at Aerys’s own command when he learned that Lord Lannister had taken up Robert’s cause, while others suggest that Elia did it herself for fear of what would happen to her children in the hands of her dead husband’s enemies.”

To the OP: I don’t think Tywin explicitly said, “go and rape and kill Elia”. He didn’t have to, given who he sent. 

[corbon]

On 3/24/2020 at 9:00 AM, Angel Eyes said:

I've always found The Mountain an outlier in this series. In a world full of characters with dubious morality and hidden depths, The Mountain is a relatively simple character: he's a massive man who enjoys killing. End of story.

While there is nothing to commend the Mountain, period, I think it likely that he has a brain tumour or something similar and has had for many years. This likely contributes significantly to his 'monstrousness'. The greatest factor though, I think, is that for GRRM he (the live version at least) had no other purpose in the story so was not 'fleshed out' with morality or depths.
I don't think there are any clues as to whether he suffered the effects at a young enough age for it to have contributed when he burned his younger brother.

Quote

Ser Gregor is overly accustomed to the poppy, I fear. His squire tells me that he is plagued by blinding headaches and oft quaffs the milk of the poppy as lesser men quaff ale.

 

[Lord Varys]

Tywin is a pathological liar. His entire relationship with Tyrion is based on a lie, especially the two most crucial events shaping their relationship - Tysha and Shae, in the end - are based on lies.

The idea that Tywin saying anything to Tyrion is the truth is a case one cannot really make. And this goes for Cersei and Jaime, too, although to a lesser degree. The only person Tywin could not as easily deceive as his children would be his siblings, especially Kevan.

And we do have a strong reason why Tywin may have wanted to see Elia Martell dead - the fact that she and her mother stole Rhaegar from Cersei and Tywin. That is not something a man like Tywin could and would forget ... nor is this kind of thing something he would discuss with the dwarf.

In that sense I'm pretty sure Tywin wanted Elia to die, but we'll never know.

And I might that a historical study of the way Tywin Lannister was seen by a majority of the fandom over the years also reveals that the readership bought Tywin's lies - prior to ASoS people thought the man would never lie with a whore, prior to AFfC people believed the man did indeed never smile (a completely ridiculous idea and always meant as a ploy to illustrate how fucked up the relationship between Tywin and some of his children was), and prior to TWoIaF people didn't believe Tywin ever laughed.