Did Tywin order the Mountain to rape Elia and smash her head?

[Angel Eyes]

On 3/26/2020 at 4:17 AM, SFDanny said:

George is a dyed-in-the-wool hopeless romantic. Sometimes his fans don't appreciate it, but it is a real world reality he always goes back to in his hyper cruel fantasy world.

For some number of reasons, I find that hard to believe.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

For some number of reasons, I find that hard to believe.

You and many, many others. I always get that reaction when I say that as well. But I agree wholeheartedly w/ @SFDanny, he is a diehard romantic IMO.

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

For some number of reasons, I find that hard to believe.

 

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You and many, many others. I always get that reaction when I say that as well. But I agree wholeheartedly w/ @SFDanny, he is a diehard romantic IMO.

After having read all of stories I'd not describe him as a 'diehard romantic' - more like a would-be romantic or broken romantic. He wants to believe in romance and love and all that ... but he knows he can't.

That is trait that's there in his stories from the very beginning, and it is very evident since the way out of life's crisis caused by romantic endeavors and the like is, very often, illusion rather than truth (just think of 'A Song for Lya', 'The Runners', 'Bitterblooms', etc.). A similar thing goes for romantic exploration of space. 'The Stone City' is his great take on that one, and there people have to give up everything for the chance to get lost in a maze of worlds which may not even be real. Even the little piece 'Night Shift' has him make it clear that only people who are not space truckers ever idealize this kind of work - there is no place for romanticism in the real world.

And if one meets a truly deep romantic like the guy from 'The Second Kind of Loneliness' he turns out to be a deranged madman or a not exactly sympathetic and very self-involved person as we meet in 'Slide Show'. George makes us feel his desire to return to the stars ... but we also feel contempt for the kind of man he is (at least I did).

And ASoIaF whole point is to undermine the whole romantic angle of fantasy and historical literature - yes, there are romantics in Westeros, but romantic ideals are even less real in Westeros than they are in the real world (considering that Westeros seems to be much more cynical than the real middle ages).

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

You and many, many others. I always get that reaction when I say that as well. But I agree wholeheartedly w/ @SFDanny, he is a diehard romantic IMO.

Oh jeeez there are so many times out there (written or video) where GRRM refers to himself as a romantic. The problem is, most people think of romance as some cheesy, flowery nonsense, the type of rag you find in the grocery store featuring a bare-shirtted man heaving his nostrils at a bodiced woman. That's why many readers miss the point of Sansa's arc.

A favorite story quote about romance is this one from With Morning Comes Mistfall, a story all about mystery and romance and a peek into GRRM's mind:

 Dubowski shook his head. “I think you’re wrong. They’ll find plenty of good, profitable ways to exploit this planet. But even if you were correct, well, it’s just too bad. Knowledge is what man is all about. People like you have tried to hold back progress since the beginning of time. But they failed, and you failed. Man needs to know.”

“Maybe,” Sanders said. “But is that the only thing man needs? I don’t think so. I think he also needs mystery, and poetry, and romance. I think he needs a few unanswered questions to make him brood and wonder.”

Dubowski stood up abruptly, and frowned. “This conversation is as pointless as your philosophy, Sanders. There’s no room in my universe for unanswered questions.”

“Then you live in a very drab universe, Doctor.”

Also this that GRRM says about himself:

A Song for Lya” is the oldest of the six stories in this section. It was written in 1973, during my days in VISTA, when I was living on Margate Terrace in Chicago’s Uptown, sharing a third-floor walk-up with some of my college chess cronies, and working at the Cook County Legal Assistance Foundation. I was also in the midst of the first serious romance of my life; it was not the first time I had ever been in love, but it was certainly the first time my feelings had been reciprocated. That relationship gave “Lya” its emotional core; without it, I would have been the proverbial blind man describing a sunset. “A Song for Lya” was also my longest story to date, my first novella. When I finished it, I knew that I had finally surpassed “With Morning Comes Mistfall” and “The Second Kind of Loneliness,” written two years earlier. This was the best thing I’d ever done.

I mean, there is a lot out there detailing GRRM as a romantic (Helloooo, Beauty and the Beast)

UPDATING: This is the quote I was thinking about. GRRM has evolved, and it all thanks to  Parris, the real star of the show.

• And Santa Fe was where Parris was too, holding down the fort. We’d met at a convention in 1975, a few months before I entered into my ill-considered marriage. I knew I liked her the moment she told me that “A Song for Lya” made her cry (well, she was a stone fox too, and we were both naked when we met, but never mind about that, it’s none of your business). Parris and I stayed in touch after that con, exchanging occasional letters through all the years when I was teaching Catholic girls and she was selling sno-cones and shoveling elephant dung for Ringling Brothers. In 1981 we got together at another convention, and she came to Santa Fe to stay with me a while. That “while” will have lasted twenty-two years by the time you read this. Now and again one of my readers will ask me why I don’t write sad stories of unrequited love any longer, the way I did so often in the ’70s. Parris is to blame for that. You can only write that stuff when your heart is broken.

WAIT!!! Also adding this from The Mystery Knight....

"You have no poetry in your heart, ser."

WAIT AGAIN for the third time... I finally found this one again to add:

BR: Okay, as obviously you can see that everyone is really looking forward to that. Kind of a side question to that, George, this one actually comes from one of the readers in the room, from "Arrian Villa", which is kind of a two part question -- did writing for Beauty and the Beast help at all with the Ice and Fire series and do you consider yourself a romantic?

GRRM: The second part is easy, yes I do consider myself a romantic, maybe more so in my earlier work than my current work. But if you certainly go back and read stories like as Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr, it's intensely romantic work. Of course, I define romantic in the classic sense, I'm not talking harlequin romances romantic, I'm talking Lord Byron romantic -- let's make that distinction there...

 

I love not man the less, but Nature more.

--Lord Byron

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

For some number of reasons, I find that hard to believe.

Entirely your right to do so, but let me leave you with this quote of Maester Aemon.

Quote

What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. (AGoT 692) bold emphasis added

 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk, I'm maybe an optimist or gullible or whatever you want to call it. I assume the best until I'm proven wrong. I don't think the majority of cases turn out that way though. 

I'd think the majority of teenage relationships end rather poorly. These are young people who know next to nothing about each other (or themselves, really), after all.

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, I mean you could be right. I just didn't recall them getting married the day after. So maybe they did, maybe they didn't. 

Yeah. The way Tyrion describes it makes me think it was all in a short time, but whether their marriage was the day after, or the following week, or the following month, is never actually stated.

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Its certainly more cautious. I'm getting the feeling I wouldn't be a very good rich person. Thankfully, I'm not 

Hehe. I wouldn't think cynicism is the route to being a good rich person, though. You'd never be able to trust anyone if you thought they were all after your money.

As is often the case, one would probably need to find a good balance (or they'll find themselves without a good balance).

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Fair enough. I guess it's just more tragic to me if she is actually in love with him. A better story IMO.

There's an additional tragic element the other way, too, in that Tyrion had let himself get so destroyed as he does by ADWD over someone who never truly cared for him. It works either way, I think.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Did Tysha love Tyrion? Our evidence is limited to Tyrion's beliefs prior to being told the lie Tywin constructed for Jaime to tell him. Tyrion believed so, and believed he loved her as well.

The beliefs of a 13 year old, half remembered a decade later, are not evidence for anything.

[SFDanny]

8 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

The beliefs of a 13 year old, half remembered a decade later, are not evidence for anything.

I disagree. It is evidence that Tyrion felt a connection from Tysha. Surely, it can be faked, but we have no evidence she did so. Tyrion's evidence over no evidence otherwise. I'll take Tyrion's.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

I disagree. It is evidence that Tyrion felt a connection from Tysha. Surely, it can be faked, but we have no evidence she did so. Tyrion's evidence over no evidence otherwise. I'll take Tyrion's.

Also worthy of note is that Tyrion feels this connection from Tysha, who is crofter’s daughter and also a child. And very likely not a super savvy conniving scheming woman of the world. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

think the majority of teenage relationships end rather poorly. These are young people who know next to nothing about each other (or themselves, really), after all.

The majority certainly end, sometimes they don't though. I've been with my husband since I was 16. My sister has been with hers since she was 14. My other sister, though, has been married 3 times, twice to the same man... Lol so yeah I know it's not the norm but not unheard of either. 

27 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Hehe. I wouldn't think cynicism is the route to being a good rich person, though. You'd never be able to trust anyone if you thought they were all after your money.

As is often the case, one would probably need to find a good balance (or they'll find themselves without a good balance).

Yeah a good balance would probably be best. 

28 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

There's an additional tragic element the other way, too, in that Tyrion had let himself get so destroyed as he does by ADWD over someone who never truly cared for him. It works either way, I think

Yeah I suppose so. I prefer it to be true love but I can see the tragedy in this also. 

 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

38 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I disagree. It is evidence that Tyrion felt a connection from Tysha. Surely, it can be faked, but we have no evidence she did so. Tyrion's evidence over no evidence otherwise. I'll take Tyrion's.

It's not evidence or even an implication that he felt anything from Tysha. He believed that they were in love when he was thirteen. He was a hormone riddled simpleton at the time, just like every other teenager who has ever been in love. I've never known a teenager to be able to accurately judge their own feelings, let alone another's. Tyrion wanted her to love him, so he believed she did. Maybe she felt the same, but there's no evidence that she did.

One person believing something to be the case does not imply that it's true.

45 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also worthy of note is that Tyrion feels this connection from Tysha, who is crofter’s daughter and also a child. And very likely not a super savvy conniving scheming woman of the world.

Do you really believe that one would need to be a "super savvy conniving scheming woman of the world" in order to manipulate a thirteen year old boy in the grips of his first love?

[Nevets]

Tywin is a cold, hard, ruthless sonofabitch.  I have always regarded him as being Machiavellian - in an "ends justify the means" way.  Implying that the means are designed to an end.

His actions always have a purpose.  He May go overboard, as with the Riverlands, but his reasoning is discernible.

Tysha's rape had a purpose - to punish Tysha and to convince Tyrion she was a whore.  Raping Elia served no purpose.  She is a high-ranking noblewoman.  Raping someone like that is likely to result in notoriety and disdain for those believed responsible.  Plus it angered her (very powerful and influential) family beyond what a simple murder would have.

So I don't think he ordered her rape.  He may well have ordered her murder, or simply didn't care.

As for Gregor, he was a brand new knight at the time, albeit known for his "implacable ferocity", as Ned puts it.  But I don't think that means Tywin expected him to rape her.  Just that he was generally violent.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

It's not evidence or even an implication that he felt anything from Tysha. He believed that they were in love when he was thirteen. He was a hormone riddled simpleton at the time, just like every other teenager who has ever been in love. I've never known a teenager to be able to accurately judge their own feelings, let alone another's. Tyrion wanted her to love him, so he believed she did. Maybe she felt the same, but there's no evidence that she did.

One person believing something to be the case does not imply that it's true.

Do you really believe that one would need to be a "super savvy conniving scheming woman of the world" in order to manipulate a thirteen year old boy in the grips of his first love?

Well, while it's true that Tyrion thinks Tysha was in love with him at thirteen, it is also true he still thinks she was in the story as late as during the storm on the Selaesori Qhoran when he speaks to Penny about Sansa.

Quote

Was she your wife? She ... was very beautiful ..."

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women ... Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go? (ADwD 531-532) bold emphasis  added

Evidence from both the thirteen year old Tyrion's experience with Tysha and the adult Tyrion's view of the past. However shaky you think the evidence is, it is better than pure fan speculation.

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Evidence from both the thirteen year old Tyrion's experience with Tysha and the adult Tyrion's view of the past. However shaky you think the evidence is, it is better than pure fan speculation.

Tbf, In the same sentence, 20 somethings Tyrion calls  Sansa false for no reason... So it's completely fair questioning how reliable are his memories and feelings.

[SFDanny]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Tbf, In the same sentence, 20 somethings Tyrion calls  Sansa false for no reason... So it's completely fair questioning how reliable are his memories and feelings.

To be fair, Sansa is totally false to Tyrion. She never claims to love him, but she leaves him alone with no help to face a charge of regicide. The supportive wife he wanted was not there for him when he needed someone. Not that Sansa didn't have great reasons, in fact the best of all possible reasons, for doing so, but the timing of her abandonment of Tyrion is bound to make him feel a tiny bit betrayed. Just think, if she had stayed she could have exposed the Tyrells and still ended up scheduled for execution right alongside Tyrion. Which is one of those great reasons she left. Still not the "dutiful wife" Tyrion had told himself she was, and Sansa pretended to be. He was betrayed, and in his better moments I think Tyrion would agree it was a betrayal for damn good reasons.

Of course the irony here is thick. Tyrion is thinking of the love of Tysha, who, if she is still alive, has got to feel like Tyrion is guilty of the ultimate betrayal*, and then complaining that Sansa was false to him. It would be at least some tiny form of justice if Tyrion had to be in the same room with both of his wives and try to explain to them his actions. Would either forgive him? I'm betting on Sansa before Tysha ever considers it.

In our poor patricidal exile's defense, he thinks he is just about to literally go down with the ship. Contemplating your betrayer's reasons and weighing the pros and cons of why they betrayed you are not at the top of one's list as you're about to drown.

But back to whether or not Tysha really loved Tyrion. I've never claimed his evidence is ironclad. Only that in the face of no evidence that she didn't love him it is all we have to go on. Maybe Arya will pop on over to see the Sailor's wife and we will find out from a more reliable perspective as they talk over their childhood memories debating which was more traumatized. My money is on a consensus that Martin is a bastard to his characters and loves putting them through hell.

 

*btw almost certainly one of Tywin's objectives

[frenin]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

To be fair, Sansa is totally false to Tyrion. She never claims to love him, but she leaves him alone with no help to face a charge of regicide. The supportive wife he wanted was not there for him when he needed someone. Not that Sansa didn't have great reasons, in fact the best of all possible reasons, for doing so, but the timing of her abandonment of Tyrion is bound to make him feel a tiny bit betrayed. Just think, if she had stayed she could have exposed the Tyrells and still ended up scheduled for execution right alongside Tyrion. Which is one of those great reasons she left. Still not the "dutiful wife" Tyrion had told himself she was, and Sansa pretended to be. He was betrayed, and in his better moments I think Tyrion would agree it was a betrayal for damn good reasons.

No, she's not totally false to Tyrion, she never gave or promised something to Tyrion she could not give, leaving Tyrion on his own is not false by any means. The fact that Tyrion wanted a supportive wife does not mean that Sansa has  to be a supportive wife for her to be "true". 

If That's the bar then i agree with  @cyberdirectorfreedom, Tyrion delluded himself with Sansa, he delluded himself with Shae (this is the most stricking)... What are the odds that a 20 something and disappointed in life and most of all with his relationship Tyrion is accurately describing how Tysa felt about him after believing for most of his life that she was a whore?? A very biased and easily self delluded souce remains a very biased and easily self delluded even if it's our only source.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

58 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

To be fair, Sansa is totally false to Tyrion. She never claims to love him, but she leaves him alone with no help to face a charge of regicide. The supportive wife he wanted was not there for him when he needed someone. Not that Sansa didn't have great reasons, in fact the best of all possible reasons, for doing so, but the timing of her abandonment of Tyrion is bound to make him feel a tiny bit betrayed. Just think, if she had stayed she could have exposed the Tyrells and still ended up scheduled for execution right alongside Tyrion. Which is one of those great reasons she left. Still not the "dutiful wife" Tyrion had told himself she was, and Sansa pretended to be. He was betrayed, and in his better moments I think Tyrion would agree it was a betrayal for damn good reasons.

I don't know if we can say Sansa was being false to him. She made it pretty clear, in every way available to her that she would do what she absolutely must but no more. 

I get what you are saying though, she does profess to be a dutiful wife & leaving him is not very dutiful. I think Tyrion does or should know that given the opportunity she would escape her imprisonment though. 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Of course the irony here is thick. Tyrion is thinking of the love of Tysha, who, if she is still alive, has got to feel like Tyrion is guilty of the ultimate betrayal*, and then complaining that Sansa was false to him. It would be at least some tiny form of justice if Tyrion had to be in the same room with both of his wives and try to explain to them his actions. Would either forgive him? I'm betting on Sansa before Tysha ever considers it.

Agreed. Sansa wasn't treated poorly by Tyrion. He married her, but he was kind to her. 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

But back to whether or not Tysha really loved Tyrion. I've never claimed his evidence is ironclad. Only that in the face of no evidence that she didn't love him it is all we have to go on. Maybe Arya will pop on over to see the Sailor's wife and we will find out from a more reliable perspective as they talk over their childhood memories debating which was more traumatized. My money is on a consensus that Martin is a bastard to his characters and loves putting them through hell.

Agreed. I think it's pretty unlikely that we will ever get any evidence saying they didn't love each other. There really is no reason to think they didn't. Tyrion says he loved her, says she loved him. They both behaved as if they loved each other. I think it's pretty safe to say they did. 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

However shaky you think the evidence is, it is better than pure fan speculation.

Tyrion's speculation is no better than any other speculation, fan or otherwise. His might well be worse, however, considering his obvious bias.

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

They both behaved as if they loved each other. I think it's pretty safe to say they did.

Tysha also behaved in the exact way she would if she were manipulating Tyrion, though.

I wouldn't think it safe to say that they were in love, any more than it's safe to say that they weren't. I think it foolish to think that, because Tyrion believes they were in love, that they must be. I mean, he once speculated that Shae might not be able to see ugliness. He's hardly proven himself trustworthy regarding matters of the heart.

I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. - Aemon Targaryen

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Tysha also behaved in the exact way she would if she were manipulating Tyrion, though.

I wouldn't think it safe to say that they were in love, any more than it's safe to say that they weren't. I think it foolish to think that, because Tyrion believes they were in love, that they must be. I mean, he once speculated that Shae might not be able to see ugliness. He's hardly proven himself trustworthy regarding matters of the heart.

Shae is actually a whore though. She is being paid to behave that way & it is delusional of him to believe she is something different but I don't know that has any bearing on Tysha. 

He isn't the best judge, clearly, & it's certainly possible Tysha was manipulating him but at this point I just don't see much reason to question what he says. She appears to have loved him, she behaved as if she loved him, he is not always a good judge but that doesn't mean he was wrong here. He could be, sure. 

[SFDanny]

Let's see. We have pretty much proof that Tysha was what she appeared to be. That being a fourteen year old virgin crofter's daughter. That is to say not exactly skilled in manipulating nobility to part with their gold and fall in love with her. Yet we are to assume she plays Tyrion falsely because what? It is natural for young impoverished women to lie about their feelings to entice men into the trap of marriage? This is, I must say, a fairly dark view to take of women, even fictional ones. No, I think I'll stick with the meager evidence we have that Tysha was what she seemed, including loving Tyrion before Tywin destroyed her marriage through the most brutal and cruel method available to him.

[SFDanny]

To get back to the OP's question, have we settled on Tywin at least being capable of giving the order to rape and kill Elia along with his admitted order to kill her children? I'm not sure how Martin could answer this question for us given Tywin's death and the deaths of Ser Gregor and Ser Amory. Are we agreed Tywin was capable, but we can't be sure if he did give the order, or this was just the action of Ser Gregor?