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Did Tywin order the Mountain to rape Elia and smash her head?

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16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed & Tywin didn't truly think her a whore, but a gold-digger. He tells Jaime this is no different than a whore to get Jaime to go along with it, but Tywin knows the difference. 

GRRM literally says in the quote I provided that Tywin thinks of her as a whore. Is he wrong about his own fictional characters?

GRRM: He’s furious at Lord Tywin because he found out the truth about his first wife and what happened to her, and Tywin keeps calling her a whore — which she is by Lord Tywin’s logic.

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23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

GRRM literally says in the quote I provided that Tywin thinks of her as a whore. Is he wrong about his own fictional characters?

GRRM: He’s furious at Lord Tywin because he found out the truth about his first wife and what happened to her, and Tywin keeps calling her a whore — which she is by Lord Tywin’s logic.

Yeah she is by 'Lord Tywin's logic' but Tywin isn't stupid. He knows the difference between a true whore who gets paid to have sex with people & someone marrying someone else solely for financial gain. 

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah she is by 'Lord Tywin's logic' but Tywin isn't stupid. He knows the difference between a true whore who gets paid to have sex with people & someone marrying someone else solely for financial gain. 

It is not about stupidity, it is about ignorance. The elite can be just as ignorant about people as anyone. From Tywin's perspective she was a whore according to the author.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Why not?? Tywin seemed ready to join Aerys until the Bells. That's when he closed his doors.  Nevertheless, nothing of that changes  that the night  was a humiliation and Tywin is very petty.

Tywin was ready to join Aerys' side when the rebellion didn't seem to have a chance of success. Once the success became realistic, Tywin started to ignore Aerys' summons ("Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock") exactly because he hated the king ("My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him"). Tywin could have easily won the Rebellion for him if he joined straight as soon as Aerys called but Tywin just didn't want to do that. He obviously didn't want to fight for Aerys and only would have just to not be on the losing side which eventually turned out to be Aerys' thanks to Tywin's inaction.

And Tywin has tolerated being humiliated by Aerys for 20 years while serving as Hand for him. While he does hold grudges, it's not to the point of absurd extreme with him. Which holding a grudge on Elia for something that happened approximately a decade ago that Elia had no say in and which turned out great for Tywin would be.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah she is by 'Lord Tywin's logic' but Tywin isn't stupid. He knows the difference between a true whore who gets paid to have sex with people & someone marrying someone else solely for financial gain. 

For Tywin the difference between actual whores and commoner girls is only theoretical. As I've said, he is extreme elitist.

Edited by Dofs

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

From Tyrion.

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I'll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

 

Tyrion believes he could have said no. He even thinks it is within his power to have stopped it. He did not due believing she was a whore and being aroused, not out of fear of what his father might do to him.

Personally I think the rape may well have happened between Tysha and the Guardsmen even if Tyrion tried to stop it, but he thinks he could have stopped it and given he never tried we will never know.

As for Tyrion's involvement he thinks he could have defied his father, he chose not to and the choice, according to Tyrion, is not down to fear of his father.

Tywin's actions are still reprehensible. But Tyrion is no victim in this, he chooses to rape someone he claimed to have loved because he was aroused. He did not try to stop it, makes no mention of being 1) physically made to do it 2) threatened to do it 3) being scared of the unsaid consequences of not doing it. One of the three would excuse him, but none, as of yet, are applicable to Tyrion.

Tyrion is a loved character so of course people want to shift the blame, but the people who do are missing the point. This society was rotten to the core, the nobility looked at the peasants as talkative livestock.

That Tyrion understandably wishes he had, importantly note the past tense, defied his father does not mean he could have stopped the rape. A barracks of guardsmen sworn upon pain of death to follow Tywin's orders made sure that whatever Tyrion did would not have stopped what happened. So the guilt Tyrion expresses when he thinks, "I'm sorry that I let them rape you" has nothing to do with what he had the ability to do when Tysha was raped. It is his guilt speaking. Nothing else.

As the quote shows, and as the quotes I posted show, Tyrion thought Tysha was a whore doing her job when the attack occurred. He thought so because the one person in the world he loved and trusted other than Tysha - his brother Jaime - lied to him in detail on the orders of his father to make him believe she was a whore hired as part of an elaborate scheme to fool him into believing Tysha loved him and wanted him. Naturally, the long indoctrination of his inferiority as a dwarf played right into Tyrion's skepticism that he could ever find the romantic love he so desperately wanted - just as Tywin knew it would. Tyrion couldn't save Tysha from something he thought she was doing of her own free will.

Which leaves only the question of why he joined in? He joins in because his father forces him to do so. Tywin brings him into the barracks and makes him watch. He has manufactured the lie Tyrion believes as the framework for the attack. He provides the money to make the lie look real - or do you believe all the guardsmen really had a silver piece to pay Tysha out of their own pockets? Tywin has done everything to make his lie real and so teach his son his "sharp lesson." A lesson in which Tyrion must participate in and show he believes his wife is a whore. If not, we can be sure that Tywin would make the lesson even sharper than it was.

In short, your quotes don't show what you say they do. They show the horrible guilt Tyrion feels once he has been told the truth. Not the ability to stop the attack or to say no to what his father forces him to do. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl.

Time and time again to many in the fandom try to paint only the antagonists as doing bad deeds, while the truth was they were all pretty much awful.

When Tyrion rapes the two women in ADWD we are not supposed to think these are brand new events in Tyrion's life, we are supposed to realize that Tyrion has probably, ignorantly so, raped multiple women in his lifetime without truly realizing it.

Clearly not. If that was the case he'd never have married Tysha in the first place.

Yes, Tywin was in control of the guardsmen raping Tysha. Tyrion had a say in his own actions. He went along with it, and not out of fear but simply because he was told she was a whore and beleived it.

Yup. At no point have I said otherwise. It is very clearly an evil act ordered by Tywin on an innocent.

Either you are misreading what I have written or you are trying to create some type of strawman argument here.

  • She is nobility.
  • There is no lesson to be learnt here. He does not want it to be known that he was responsible for ordering the death of the children. Tyrion's was a lesson, there is no lesson here.

Yeah, I fully agree. He is more than capable of ordering someone raped. Again, I don't know if you have misread what I have actually wrote or purposefully created strawman arguments.

But Tywin evil actions tend to be for a purpose. There is no purpose for this, it (the murdered of the children) is meant to be a covert action which if done right will be blamed on others.

Westeros is a misogynistic society, Tywin is not going know that Elia was likely the last person consulted about her and Rhaegar's marriage. Seems unlikely he is going to want to seek vengeance on her for it.

I have to say, the quote above quite undermines your point about Tyrion believing he could stand up to his father. Martin makes his world full of class structures with teeth. That includes a thirteen year old dwarf child with no money of his own, nor skills to sell, or friends who would stand up to Tywin with power of their own. If he says "no" he knows very well Tywin will punish him. Tywin doesn't have to spell it out, as he does when Tyrion wishes to go to the Free Cities, what can and will happen to him. He has been raised to understand his powerlessness in struggles with his father. So was Tyrion a victim? Absolutely. One doesn't have to beat a child to brutalize and humiliate him.

What we do agree upon is that Tywin's actions are reprehensible. And we agree that real feudal societies are rotten to the core. The inequalities in the class structures have in many cases led to their justifiable overthrow. Martin's fantasy feudalism shows much of what the real world ones had and he shows some people who rebel against that class structure. Anyone who reads these books should understand Martin's disdain for these inequalities.

I do appreciate you making your position clearer with these remarks. No straw man arguments were meant. However, your earlier post left your ideas open to different interpretations than you now make clear.

Lastly, I'm afraid we read Tywin's character quite differently. I think we are given example after example that shows just how petty, vindictive, and sadistic he really is. The idea he would not order the rape of Elia because of her noble birth seems like a terribly mistaken one. He spared no ounce of cruelty in dealing with his enemies, unless there was a benefit for him in doing so. Just ask the Reynes and the Castemeres - if you can find one.

Edited by SFDanny

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Guys, Tywin has a very warped view of what a 'whore' is - to him that includes all women who rise their 'evil feminine wiles' to raise above their station and to all such women who are raised above their station (as defined by the great Lord Tywin) by men who love and cherish them. For instance, for him Jenny of Oldstones would be the worst of whores and had he been King Aegon V he would have given her a good Tysha treatment (as well as Duncan are good 'Tyrion lesson').

But Tywin's view of what a whore is is pretty much irrelevant to what a whore is to the Westerosi public - and, of course, also to Tyrion. To Tyrion a whore is merely a woman who works as prostitute, not any woman who enters into a romantic or sexual relationship with a man of higher birth than she is.

And Tywin also knows who Tysha actually was - just a peasant girl who meant no harm. She was thirteen years old, for fuck's sake! She wasn't some siren who tried to seduce his dwarf son and milk him for money. And he must have known that. But in his warped mind he wasn't willing to see the difference.

In that sense Tywin knows fully well what it means to rape a girl like Tysha. She is no whore in the true sense of the word - and, whore or not, she was the lady wife of a Lannister of Casterly Rock. The idea that you can just have a daughter-in-law gang-raped who isn't to your liking isn't something that makes much sense - not even in this fucked-up world.

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2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Tywin was ready to join Aerys' side when the rebellion didn't seem to have a chance of success. Once the success became realistic, Tywin started to ignore Aerys' summons ("Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock") exactly because he hated the king ("My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him"). Tywin could have easily won the Rebellion for him if he joined straight as soon as Aerys called but Tywin just didn't want to do that. He obviously didn't want to fight for Aerys and only would have just to not be on the losing side which eventually turned out to be Aerys' thanks to Tywin's inaction.

I know, that's why I said until the Bells. Tywin hated Aerys and did not want to fight for him if it didn't report  him benefit but Tywin also hated Aerys and was ready to marry Cersei to his sons.

 

 

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

And Tywin has tolerated being humiliated by Aerys for 20 years while serving as Hand for him. While he does hold grudges, it's not to the point of absurd extreme with him. Which holding a grudge on Elia for something that happened approximately a decade ago that Elia had no say in and which turned out great for Tywin would be.

And said grudges manifest when he is brooding over all injustices commited to him. He can wait, he tolerated his father's mistress for a long time too and sexually humiliated her the very moment he could get his hands on her. Why would this be different?? Why would Tywin cared about Elia's choice?? He was humiliated in his own hall by the King and later Elia's mother got the match he was aiming for from the very beginning...

Nor do i understand why it seemed apparent at that moment that it turned out great for him or why would he see it like that, since none of the events, from Aerys slighting to Jaime's appointment on the KG, to the events of the Robellion would've happened with hin getting his wish.

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On 3/24/2020 at 9:15 PM, Lord Varys said:

Tywin is a pathological liar. His entire relationship with Tyrion is based on a lie, especially the two most crucial events shaping their relationship - Tysha and Shae, in the end - are based on lies.

The idea that Tywin saying anything to Tyrion is the truth is a case one cannot really make. And this goes for Cersei and Jaime, too, although to a lesser degree. The only person Tywin could not as easily deceive as his children would be his siblings, especially Kevan.

And we do have a strong reason why Tywin may have wanted to see Elia Martell dead - the fact that she and her mother stole Rhaegar from Cersei and Tywin. That is not something a man like Tywin could and would forget ... nor is this kind of thing something he would discuss with the dwarf.

In that sense I'm pretty sure Tywin wanted Elia to die, but we'll never know.

And I might that a historical study of the way Tywin Lannister was seen by a majority of the fandom over the years also reveals that the readership bought Tywin's lies - prior to ASoS people thought the man would never lie with a whore, prior to AFfC people believed the man did indeed never smile (a completely ridiculous idea and always meant as a ploy to illustrate how fucked up the relationship between Tywin and some of his children was), and prior to TWoIaF people didn't believe Tywin ever laughed.

They didnt steal him, Aerys told Tywin point blank he and Cersei never had a chance. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And Tywin also knows who Tysha actually was - just a peasant girl who meant no harm. She was thirteen years old, for fuck's sake! She wasn't some siren who tried to seduce his dwarf son and milk him for money. And he must have known that.

Tywin wouldn't have known anything of the sort. You don't know anything of the sort. We have no idea whether or not Tysha actually cared for Tyrion or if she just wanted his money, but the latter is far more likely.

She's a homeless, starving, pretty girl who suddenly gets the chance to have a decent home, better and more plentiful food than she'd ever have, and protection from thugs who would prey upon her, the only price for which is stringing along a shy boy who is completely smitten. Or she's all of those things, and she fell in love with Tyrion Lannister, one of the most hideous people in the Seven Kingdoms.

Just because Jaime didn't pay her and create the situation, that doesn't mean that Tysha was genuinely in love with Tyrion.

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2 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Tywin wouldn't have known anything of the sort. You don't know anything of the sort. We have no idea whether or not Tysha actually cared for Tyrion or if she just wanted his money, but the latter is far more likely.

That Tywin commands Jaime to tell a specific lie about Tysha's identity tells us he knew who Tysha really was and that who she was was unacceptable to Tywin. Do you really think Jaime did what his father told him to do with the lie, but refused to tell him the truth? The truth is what makes Tywin make up the lie. I'm sorry, but your assertion Tywin didn't know who Tysha was makes absolutely no sense.

2 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

She's a homeless, starving, pretty girl who suddenly gets the chance to have a decent home, better and more plentiful food than she'd ever have, and protection from thugs who would prey upon her, the only price for which is stringing along a shy boy who is completely smitten. Or she's all of those things, and she fell in love with Tyrion Lannister, one of the most hideous people in the Seven Kingdoms.

Just because Jaime didn't pay her and create the situation, that doesn't mean that Tysha was genuinely in love with Tyrion.

Believe it or not in the real world there are people who don't view everyone by such horribly superficial standards. Because Tyrion looks different than most people due to his dwarfism doesn't make him hideous or unloveable. Martin shows that real world reality here in the Tyrion/Tysha relationship. Two young teenagers who fall in love. Why would Tysha really fall in love with Tyrion? Start with the kindness he shows her and it is not hard to understand. 

George is a dyed-in-the-wool hopeless romantic. Sometimes his fans don't appreciate it, but it is a real world reality he always goes back to in his hyper cruel fantasy world. We all want and need love. That is true for Tysha as much as it is for Tyrion.

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14 hours ago, frenin said:

but Tywin also hated Aerys and was ready to marry Cersei to his sons.

Tywin initially was best friends with Aerys and the decline of that relationship to hatred was gradual and ultimately reached its conclusion after Aerys took Jaime into his Kingsguard which was the final straw after which Tywin abandoned his position of the Hand and took Cersei with him back to Casterly Rock, clearly indicating that he gave up trying to marry her to Aerys' sons.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

And said grudges manifest when he is brooding over all injustices commited to him.

I did not say he doesn't hold grudges, didn't I? And anyway, you don't even need to be a particularly hateful person in order to hate Aerys for all the stuff he did to Tywin in the first place so it's only logical for Tywin to feel that way. In fact, I would say Tywin was way too patient instead, tolerating so much humiliation while he was the Hand.

Quote

He can wait, he tolerated his father's mistress for a long time too and sexually humiliated her the very moment he could get his hands on her. 

He didn't tolerate her, he couldn't do anything to her and humiliated her when he finally could. Nor was it for something she did a long time ago, the mistress was actively acting like the Lady of the Rock up until Tytos' death which was a constant humiliation of the Lannisters in Tywin's eyes.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Why would Tywin cared about Elia's choice?? He was humiliated in his own hall by the King and later Elia's mother got the match he was aiming for from the very beginning...

Because Tywin isn't stupid and understand that the decision was Aerys'?

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Nor do i understand why it seemed apparent at that moment that it turned out great for him or why would he see it like that, since none of the events, from Aerys slighting to Jaime's appointment on the KG, to the events of the Robellion would've happened with hin getting his wish.

What? How exactly did you conclude that if Cersei became Rhaegar's wife instead of Elia, none of the events from Aerys slighting to Jaime's appointment to KG (which you even bolded as if it's relevant somehow) would have happened? Also, where exactly did you read that Tywin was upset with Robert's Rebellion, that you seem to be implying?

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Tywin initially was best friends with Aerys and the decline of that relationship to hatred was gradual and ultimately reached its conclusion after Aerys took Jaime into his Kingsguard which was the final straw after which Tywin abandoned his position of the Hand and took Cersei with him back to Casterly Rock, clearly indicating that he gave up trying to marry her to Aerys' sons.

But we're told that their relationship ended for good after Tywin's wife death. But even then Tywin did not give up on trying to marry Cersei into the Royal Family, but ofc that if he renounces, Cersei would return with him. I don't see how it indicates  that.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Dofs said:

What? How exactly did you conclude that if Cersei became Rhaegar's wife instead of Elia, none of the events from Aerys slighting to Jaime's appointment to KG (which you even bolded as if it's relevant somehow) would have happened? Also, where exactly did you read that Tywin was upset with Robert's Rebellion, that you seem to be implying?

Jaime agreed to join the KG solely because of Cersei, had Cersei not convinced him into doing it, if Cersei has no motivation  for that, Jaime would refuse any appoitment he may receive. And ofc Jaime's appoitment is relevant, that's the reason Tywin renounced  his position.

If Rhaegar wanted to have another child, Cersei would not die during the labour, so it's less likely that he tries to destroy his life by kidnapping Lyanna.

 

I did not imply  that Tywin was upset with the Robellion but that either the Robellion does not happen at all or because he squash it before it has momemtum.

 

 

Quote

I did not say he doesn't hold grudges, didn't I? And anyway, you don't even need to be a particularly hateful person in order to hate Aerys for all the stuff he did to Tywin in the first place so it's only logical for Tywin to feel that way. In fact, I would say Tywin was way too patient instead, tolerating so much humiliation while he was the Hand.

Then that's the problem??

Tywin likes the power, so him putting up with Aerys in order to keep being Hand makes sense imo.

 

Quote

He didn't tolerate her, he couldn't do anything to her and humiliated her when he finally could. Nor was it for something she did a long time ago, the mistress was actively acting like the Lady of the Rock up until Tytos' death which was a constant humiliation of the Lannisters in Tywin's eyes.

Semantics, I think that what i say it's clear, Tywin put up with the constant  humiliation his father's mistress meant until he could get his hand on her. And Tywin was still Hand after Cersei was rejected, up until his resignment, Elia would be a constant reminder of the humiliation he suffered.

 

 

Quote

 

 

Edited by frenin

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

But we're told that their relationship ended for good after Tywin's wife death. But even then Tywin did not give up on trying to marry Cersei into the Royal Family, but ofc that if he renounces, Cersei would return with him. I don't see how it indicates  that.

We are told that their relationship started to seriously worsen but it's clear that Tywin still tried to maintain working relationship with the king. Its only after Jaime's appointment to the Kingsguard did Tywin's hatred overcome his desire to be close to the court. This was the final straw. Before that Tywin's hatred clearly wasn't that big, otherwise he would have left his position as the Hand earlier. And no, Cersei doesn't need to go back with him if he renounces. Cersei was there in the first place to get closer to the princes.  Obviously Tywin wasn't concerned with that anymore.

Quote

Jaime agreed to join the KG solely because of Cersei, had Cersei not convinced him into doing it, if Cersei has no motivation  for that, Jaime would refuse any appoitment he may receive. And ofc Jaime's appoitment is relevant, that's the reason Tywin renounced  his position.

First of all, we are looking at this from POV of Tywin, you are arguing that Tywin would see the fact that Jaime got taken into the Kingsguard as the consequence of Elia becoming Rhaegar's wife instead of Cersei, yet Tywin had absolutely no idea about the fact that it was Cersei who convinced Jaime to enter.

And secondly, Cersei being bethrothed to Rhaegar or being married with him already wouldn't affect Cersei's motivation to get Jaime into Kingsguard in any way. That would still have happened.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

If Rhaegar wanted to have another child, Cersei would not die during the labour, so it's less likely that he tries to destroy his life by kidnapping Lyanna.

As if Tywin cared that Rhaegar destroyed his life.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

I did not imply  that Tywin was upset with the Robellion but that either the Robellion does not happen at all or because he squash it before it has momemtum.

Your argument is that Tywin would be still upset that Elia became Rhaegar's wife instead of Cersei because otherwise there would be no rebellion or that he could have ended it quickly. That by definition shows that you are implying that Tywin was against the rebellion.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

hen that's the problem??

Tywin likes the power, so him putting up with Aerys in order to keep being Hand makes sense imo.

And yet Tywin didn't put up with Aerys after all?

 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Semantics, I think that what i say it's clear, Tywin put up with the constant  humiliation his father's mistress meant until he could get his hand on her. And Tywin was still Hand after Cersei was rejected, up until his resignment, Elia would be a constant reminder of the humiliation he suffered.

One instance was relevant up to the point when Tywin humiliated the mistress. Cersei's rejection stopped being relevant after Tywin resigned and especially wasn't relevant during the Rebellion where Tywin was literally ending the Targaryen line with his own orders.

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16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

That Tywin commands Jaime to tell a specific lie about Tysha's identity tells us he knew who Tysha really was and that who she was was unacceptable to Tywin. Do you really think Jaime did what his father told him to do with the lie, but refused to tell him the truth? The truth is what makes Tywin make up the lie. I'm sorry, but your assertion Tywin didn't know who Tysha was makes absolutely no sense.

How would Jaime know whether or not Tysha actually cared about Tyrion? I'm sure Jaime told the story to his father, but so what? That still doesn't imply that Tywin knew that Tysha was truly in love with Tyrion. Tyrion didn't know the truth, Jaime didn't know the truth, Tywin didn't know the truth, you don't know the truth, I don't know the truth. It's all speculation.

17 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Believe it or not in the real world there are people who don't view everyone by such horribly superficial standards.

Fascinating. There are also people who do view people by such horribly superficial standards. Most commonly it's age, wisdom and maturity that lead people to taking a less superficial view. Hardly the province of young girls, but it's not impossible, that's true.

Examples in the book include Sansa and Jeyne Poole, early on at least, and many people judge Brienne quite harshly simply on her appearance, highborn and commoners alike.

17 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Because Tyrion looks different than most people due to his dwarfism doesn't make him hideous or unloveable.

Eh? He's not hideous because he's a dwarf, he's hideous because he's a particularly hideous dwarf. Mismatched eyes, swollen brow, squashed-in face, twisted shoulders, twisted legs, etc. Just about every time there's a description of him (whether he's giving it himself or not), there's mention of him being somewhat grotesque.

He had let his beard grow to cover his pushed-in face, until it was a bristly tangle of yellow and black hair, coarse as wire. Down his back flowed a shadowskin cloak, black fur striped with white. He held the reins in his left hand and carried his right arm in a white silk sling, but otherwise looked as grotesque as Sansa remembered from when he had visited Winterfell. With his bulging brow and mismatched eyes, he was still the ugliest man she had ever chanced to look upon.

I've hardly said it makes him unlovable, though. But they married after knowing each other for a single night. Assuming it's love seems like the wrong move.

19 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Why would Tysha really fall in love with Tyrion? Start with the kindness he shows her and it is not hard to understand. 

Why would Tysha manipulate Tyrion? Start with the feast they had and it is not hard to understand.

There are plenty of kind people. The amount of people who could provide what Tyrion could provide are few and far between. It's hardly a guarantee that she was didn't actually care for him, but it's a perfectly realistic scenario.

19 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We all want and need love. That is true for Tysha as much as it is for Tyrion.

Sure. It's just as true for Shae, also, who absolutely did not love Tyrion. She's a whore, fine. But it's also true for Sansa, who couldn't find it in her to love Tyrion.

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3 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

How would Jaime know whether or not Tysha actually cared about Tyrion? I'm sure Jaime told the story to his father, but so what? That still doesn't imply that Tywin knew that Tysha was truly in love with Tyrion. Tyrion didn't know the truth, Jaime didn't know the truth, Tywin didn't know the truth, you don't know the truth, I don't know the truth. It's all speculation

Tywin & Jaime knew the girl was not a whore Jaime paid to be with Tyrion. They knew she claimed to be an orphaned crofters daughter & really no reason to contest it. Sure, anything could be the truth but all the evidence we have as of now says Tysha was exactly who she said she was. 

3 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Fascinating. There are also people who do view people by such horribly superficial standards. Most commonly it's age, wisdom and maturity that lead people to taking a less superficial view. Hardly the province of young girls, but it's not impossible, that's true.

This should not be our default assumption though right? 

There are people who base feelings solely on looks & there are those that don't. We have no reason to believe Tysha wasn't in love with Tyrion & there is reason to believe she was. 

3 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I've hardly said it makes him unlovable, though. But they married after knowing each other for a single night. Assuming it's love seems like the wrong move

Did they? I recently read the passage where he tells Bronn about her & he doesn't say he married her after one night there. Maybe he says it somewhere else? At any rate though, why not assume it's love? 

4 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Why would Tysha manipulate Tyrion? Start with the feast they had and it is not hard to understand.

There are plenty of kind people. The amount of people who could provide what Tyrion could provide are few and far between. It's hardly a guarantee that she was didn't actually care for him, but it's a perfectly realistic scenario

The story we are getting is that she did fall in love with him & was who she said she was. Of course that could change with new info but as it stands the whole thing revolves around the fact that Tyrion was lied to, Jaime & Tywin said she was a whore because Tywin believed her to be after Tyrion's money. It would make it kind of silly if she then was actually only after his money right? 

4 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Sure. It's just as true for Shae, also, who absolutely did not love Tyrion. She's a whore, fine. But it's also true for Sansa, who couldn't find it in her to love Tyrion.

I'm not sure what the point is here. Of course there are people who didn't love Tyrion. I've had plenty of boyfriend's who didn't love me also, doesn't mean my husband doesn't love me. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Dofs said:

We are told that their relationship started to seriously worsen but it's clear that Tywin still tried to maintain working relationship with the king. Its only after Jaime's appointment to the Kingsguard did Tywin's hatred overcome his desire to be close to the court. This was the final straw. Before that Tywin's hatred clearly wasn't that big, otherwise he would have left his position as the Hand earlier. And no, Cersei doesn't need to go back with him if he renounces. Cersei was there in the first place to get closer to the princes.  Obviously Tywin wasn't concerned with that anymore.

We're literally told that any good feeling between them died soon after Joanna's death.

And Tywin did try to resign before but Aerys did not accept it.

Tywin ofc would not want to let Cersei near Aerys after what the man had just done, regardless of any intentions he might or might not have.

 

 

11 hours ago, Dofs said:

First of all, we are looking at this from POV of Tywin, you are arguing that Tywin would see the fact that Jaime got taken into the Kingsguard as the consequence of Elia becoming Rhaegar's wife instead of Cersei, yet Tywin had absolutely no idea about the fact that it was Cersei who convinced Jaime to enter.

And secondly, Cersei being bethrothed to Rhaegar or being married with him already wouldn't affect Cersei's motivation to get Jaime into Kingsguard in any way. That would still have happened.

Were we?? I thought we were just pondering whether those events would happen or not.

Then so. Tywin has no idea about that but Cersei and Rhaegar together means that there is a possibility of hope for the two men relationship, so no KG.

 

How do you figure that Cersei would've acted anyway??

 

11 hours ago, Dofs said:

As if Tywin cared that Rhaegar destroyed his life.

Maybe not but that's something that would not happen regardless.  

 

 

11 hours ago, Dofs said:

Your argument is that Tywin would be still upset that Elia became Rhaegar's wife instead of Cersei because otherwise there would be no rebellion or that he could have ended it quickly. That by definition shows that you are implying that Tywin was against the rebellion

Hmmm no. By that definition  means that Tywin had reasons to be against Aerys...  He was completely ambivant with the robellion.

 

 

11 hours ago, Dofs said:

One instance was relevant up to the point when Tywin humiliated the mistress. Cersei's rejection stopped being relevant after Tywin resigned and especially wasn't relevant during the Rebellion where Tywin was literally ending the Targaryen line with his own orders.

So you say, humiliations don't stop being relevant when you leave, it has nothing to do with him still wanting to be a Targ or not.

 

 

Edited by frenin

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16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tywin & Jaime knew the girl was not a whore Jaime paid to be with Tyrion. They knew she claimed to be an orphaned crofters daughter & really no reason to contest it. Sure, anything could be the truth but all the evidence we have as of now says Tysha was exactly who she said she was. 

Sure, but my point was never that Tywin thought she'd lied about who she was, or that he suspected any differently. Just that he didn't know that Tysha genuinely loved Tyrion.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This should not be our default assumption though right? 

Should it not? If the majority of y experiences show x our default assumption should be that will lead to x. Even if a different result would be nicer.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Did they? I recently read the passage where he tells Bronn about her & he doesn't say he married her after one night there. Maybe he says it somewhere else?

Hmm, I suppose I just assumed it was an immediate marriage. He says they played at being man and wife for a fortnight, and I got the impression that this was the majority of their time together. I could be wrong, obviously.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

At any rate though, why not assume it's love? 

Assuming deceit seems more cautious. The things that set Tyrion apart from others are his extraordinary wealth and his hideous appearance, and the wealth is such an obvious motive. To assume that his wealth had no influence in her choices seems odd.

When you hear about some beautiful young woman marrying some rich 90 year old pervert gentleman, do you assume love from both parties? I don't.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The story we are getting is that she did fall in love with him & was who she said she was. Of course that could change with new info but as it stands the whole thing revolves around the fact that Tyrion was lied to, Jaime & Tywin said she was a whore because Tywin believed her to be after Tyrion's money.

It's worth considering that Tyrion never even thinks about what Tysha was really like, after Jaime tells him the truth. He just assumes that because Jaime's story was false, that Tyrion's prior thoughts must have been the truth. Which doesn't make sense, obviously. He was a teenager at the time, completely smitten by his first love, two things that don't exactly imply decent critical thought.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It would make it kind of silly if she then was actually only after his money right? 

No? The impact would be the same, regardless of Tysha's feelings, because Tyrion believes that Tysha genuinely loved him.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not sure what the point is here. Of course there are people who didn't love Tyrion. I've had plenty of boyfriend's who didn't love me also, doesn't mean my husband doesn't love me. 

The point was a rebuttal to the idea that because we "all want and need love" that the Tyrion/Tysha situation must have been love. Despite the fact that everybody wants love, all situations that look to be love (or could be love) are not necessarily love. Tyrion/Shae, you/past boyfriends, etc. There are examples a-plenty, in our world and in the novels, of marriages and other romantic relationships that aren't borne out of love.

It doesn't mean it wasn't love, of course, but implying that because people want love that it must have been love is obviously nonsense.

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7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Sure, but my point was never that Tywin thought she'd lied about who she was, or that he suspected any differently. Just that he didn't know that Tysha genuinely loved Tyrion

Yeah I suppose no one knew that for sure, other than Tysha. 

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Should it not? If the majority of y experiences show x our default assumption should be that will lead to x. Even if a different result would be nicer

Idk, I'm maybe an optimist or gullible or whatever you want to call it. I assume the best until I'm proven wrong. I don't think the majority of cases turn out that way though. 

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Hmm, I suppose I just assumed it was an immediate marriage. He says they played at being man and wife for a fortnight, and I got the impression that this was the majority of their time together. I could be wrong, obviously

Sure, I mean you could be right. I just didn't recall them getting married the day after. So maybe they did, maybe they didn't. 

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Assuming deceit seems more cautious. The things that set Tyrion apart from others are his extraordinary wealth and his hideous appearance, and the wealth is such an obvious motive. To assume that his wealth had no influence in her choices seems odd.

Its certainly more cautious. I'm getting the feeling I wouldn't be a very good rich person. Thankfully, I'm not :lol:

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

It's worth considering that Tyrion never even thinks about what Tysha was really like, after Jaime tells him the truth. He just assumes that because Jaime's story was false, that Tyrion's prior thoughts must have been the truth. Which doesn't make sense, obviously. He was a teenager at the time, completely smitten by his first love, two things that don't exactly imply decent critical thought

Fair enough. I guess it's just more tragic to me if she is actually in love with him. A better story IMO.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

The point was a rebuttal to the idea that because we "all want and need love" that the Tyrion/Tysha situation must have been love. Despite the fact that everybody wants love, all situations that look to be love (or could be love) are not necessarily love. Tyrion/Shae, you/past boyfriends, etc. There are examples a-plenty, in our world and in the novels, of marriages and other romantic relationships that aren't borne out of love.

It doesn't mean it wasn't love, of course, but implying that because people want love that it must have been love is obviously nonsense

I see. Yeah, it doesn't have to be love just because that's what we "all want and need" I would like it to have been, because I think that's a better story but I'll agree it's possible it wasn't. 

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Did Tysha love Tyrion? Our evidence is limited to Tyrion's beliefs prior to being told the lie Tywin constructed for Jaime to tell him. Tyrion believed so, and believed he loved her as well. Our evidence against this is nothing but speculation on our part. Yes, it's possible Tysha really was in it for Tyrion's money, but we have no evidence it is so. Perhaps we will learn if Lanna is her daughter.

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