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Did Tywin order the Mountain to rape Elia and smash her head?

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20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

To get back to the OP's question, have we settled on Tywin at least being capable of giving the order to rape and kill Elia along with his admitted order to kill her children? I'm not sure how Martin could answer this question for us given Tywin's death and the deaths of Ser Gregor and Ser Amory. Are we agreed Tywin was capable, but we can't be sure if he did give the order, or this was just the action of Ser Gregor?

fwiw, I agree 100% he was capable. Not sure if he did, he may not have because it's not unlike Gregor to do it either. So yeah, I agree he was capable. 

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On 3/27/2020 at 9:46 AM, frenin said:

We're literally told that any good feeling between them died soon after Joanna's death.

We are not told that Tywin intensely hated him. And we know for a fact the that he didn't hate him as much as he did after he took Jaime from him.

On 3/27/2020 at 9:46 AM, frenin said:

And Tywin did try to resign before but Aerys did not accept it.

Ah, yes, I misremembered and thought that it was Joanna who talked Tywin out of it. It doesn't matter, it happened a long time before Joanna's death and we know that their relationship was not yet as bad at that point. Tywin wanted to resign because he insulted Joanna in front of the court. 

On 3/27/2020 at 9:46 AM, frenin said:

Tywin ofc would not want to let Cersei near Aerys after what the man had just done, regardless of any intentions he might or might not have.

So you think that if it was just Tywin's personal hatred and there was nothing that would endanger Cersei, he would have left her in KL? Doubtful, to say the least.

On 3/27/2020 at 9:46 AM, frenin said:

Were we?? I thought we were just pondering whether those events would happen or not.

Then so. Tywin has no idea about that but Cersei and Rhaegar together means that there is a possibility of hope for the two men relationship, so no KG.

Our argument started after I claimed that Tywin had no reason to still be angry at Elia being chosen instead of Cersei at the time of rebellion and you disagreed with me. That by definition implies that we are talking about Tywin's POV. What is the point of pondering whether some random events would have happened if Cersei was chosen, exactly?

On 3/27/2020 at 9:46 AM, frenin said:

How do you figure that Cersei would've acted anyway??

I simply read how she acted in the books and without seeing any reason why would she act differently, assumed that she would act the same. How did you figure it out?

On 3/27/2020 at 9:46 AM, frenin said:

Maybe not but that's something that would not happen regardless. 

As I've told already, if Tywin doesn't care about it, than it's irrelevant to the discussion

On 3/27/2020 at 9:46 AM, frenin said:

Hmmm no. By that definition  means that Tywin had reasons to be against Aerys...  He was completely ambivant with the robellion.

No, he was not ambivalent. He specifically didn't join to help Aerys because he hated him but didn't join the rebellion straight away because he did not want to end up on a losing side.

On 3/27/2020 at 9:46 AM, frenin said:

So you say, humiliations don't stop being relevant when you leave, it has nothing to do with him still wanting to be a Targ or not.

Eh, sry I am confused what are you trying to say here and from where this 'Tywin wanted to be Targ' comes from.

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3 hours ago, Dofs said:

We are not told that Tywin intensely hated him. And we know for a fact the that he didn't hate him as much as he did after he took Jaime from him.

True, what we're told is this:

 

Upon hearing of his birth, King Aerys infamously said, “The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last.”
It was not long before reports of the king’s remarks reached Lord Tywin as he grieved at Casterly Rock. Thereafter, no shred of the old affection between the two men endured 

 

We are not told that after Aerys took Jaime from him he hated it, we are told he was pretty pissed off, but there was no affection between by then. Hearing that Aerys said that of you would leave you with resentment however.

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Ah, yes, I misremembered and thought that it was Joanna who talked Tywin out of it. It doesn't matter, it happened a long time before Joanna's death and we know that their relationship was not yet as bad at that point. Tywin wanted to resign because he insulted Joanna in front of the court. 

It matters because we know that there was no relationship between the two of them after Joanna's death. It does not matter why Tywin wanted to resign, he wanted to do it.

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

So you think that if it was just Tywin's personal hatred and there was nothing that would endanger Cersei, he would have left her in KL? Doubtful, to say the least.

Not only the hatred, the fact that Aerys had no regards when it came to Tywin's family, only a fool would let his only daughter within Aerys reach given his past record.

 

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

I simply read how she acted in the books and without seeing any reason why would she act differently, assumed that she would act the same. How did you figure it out?

Because Cersei being bethrothed to her crush would pay less attention to Jaime, the Cesei we get in the books, the one who is so sour about not marrying Rhaegar, would not be the same, whether she would cheat eventually with Jaime or not, i think that much is a given, is not the point, i think she would let Jaime alone for some time at least.

 

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

No, he was not ambivalent. He specifically didn't join to help Aerys because he hated him but didn't join the rebellion straight away because he did not want to end up on a losing side.

Then he's ambivalent, he had no interest in who ended up at the top, he would join the winner, whoever that was. And  he was perfectly fine with joining Aerys early on the robellion.

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Eh, sry I am confused what are you trying to say here and from where this 'Tywin wanted to be Targ' comes from.

I'm talking about that he wanted to marry Cersei to a Targ, sorry if that was not clear,

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, frenin said:

We are not told that after Aerys took Jaime from him he hated it, we are told he was pretty pissed off, but there was no affection between by then. Hearing that Aerys said that of you would leave you with resentment however.

"ll this Lord Tywin endured, but when the king made his son and heir, Ser Jaime, a knight of the Kingsguard, he could abide it no longer. Lord Tywin at last resigned the Handship in 281 AC."

Tywin has given up his position close to court and any of his plans with it after Aerys took Jaime from him. It's literally said that he endured Aerys before that but when this happened he could no longer. It's a difference of Tywin still willing working for him and not not willing to do it. It's quite clearly that whatever hatred and resentment Tywin had for Aerys, he had more of it after Jaime was called to Kingsguard. It's a difference between not hating Aerys enough and hating him enough. I am not saying that before that he had no resentment towards him, I am saying that it was smaller than it eventually became. And saying that there is no difference between Tywin's feeling towards Aerys before and after he took Jaime and it was just Tywin being pissed off is simply silly, sorry. Pissing someone off makes him hate you or hate you more, by definition.

20 hours ago, frenin said:

It matters because we know that there was no relationship between the two of them after Joanna's death. It does not matter why Tywin wanted to resign, he wanted to do it.

There was still relationship between them between Tywin's attempt to resign and Joanna's death. Years of relationship. Tywin probably simply felt he had a duty to protect his wife's honour back then. It didn't make him hate Aerys.

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Not only the hatred, the fact that Aerys had no regards when it came to Tywin's family, only a fool would let his only daughter within Aerys reach given his past record.

We know for a fact that Tywin left his position of Hand not out of fear for Cersei or for anything else. It's written in the text. If he so wanted for Cersei to still marry Rhaegar, he would have stayed as Hand if he was so afraid to leave Cersei alone in KL. Yet he didn't. He packed his things, took Cersei and left to Casterly Rock. It's clearly shows that marriage to Raeghar was no longer his goal.

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Because Cersei being bethrothed to her crush would pay less attention to Jaime, the Cesei we get in the books, the one who is so sour about not marrying Rhaegar, would not be the same, whether she would cheat eventually with Jaime or not, i think that much is a given, is not the point, i think she would let Jaime alone for some time at least.

Cersei killed her best friend because she wanted to marry Jaime the same day she talked how she dreamed to marry Raeghar. And why do you think Cersei got Jaime in Kingsguard, in KL? What do you think Cersei expected to do in KL for her whole life? She still thought she was going to marry him and got Jaime into Kingsguard anyway. Her crush towards Raeghar has absolutely no relation to her possessiveness of Jaime whatsoever. Jaime and Raeghar is not a choice for her, for Cersei Jaime is a part of her that should belong to her regardless. 

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Then he's ambivalent, he had no interest in who ended up at the top, he would join the winner, whoever that was. And  he was perfectly fine with joining Aerys early on the robellion

No, it's written straight in the text that he started to ignore Aerys' summons precisely because of the history between them. That by definition means he wasn't ambivalent. Tywin just didn't make his personal feelings get in the way of the interests of House Lannister, that's all, which is why he wasn't ready to mindlessly join the rebels.

 

20 hours ago, frenin said:

I'm talking about that he wanted to marry Cersei to a Targ, sorry if that was not clear,

There is a difference between feeling humiliated right now and being once humiliated approximately a decade ago that doesn't matter anymore

Edited by Dofs

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On 3/30/2020 at 11:21 AM, SFDanny said:

To get back to the OP's question, have we settled on Tywin at least being capable of giving the order to rape and kill Elia along with his admitted order to kill her children? I'm not sure how Martin could answer this question for us given Tywin's death and the deaths of Ser Gregor and Ser Amory. Are we agreed Tywin was capable, but we can't be sure if he did give the order, or this was just the action of Ser Gregor?

I don't think there's any question that Tywin is capable of giving the order for Elia to be killed. And even if Tywin is telling the truth that he didn't explicitly order Gregor to kill Elia, or didn't explicitly order him not to, I strongly doubt Elia just slipped his mind. I find it more likely that Tywin gave Gregor a command or answer he knew would include Elia and any other living person they encountered, even if he didn't mention Elia by name. Even if it was as simple as, "leave no witnesses."

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The Mountain is the most responsible because he made choices to employ unnecessary cruelty and suffering.  Even if his orders were to kill. He could kill with little pain but he chose instead to humiliate, torment, and then kill.  Tywin wanted the family dead but he didn't want them tortured.  Tywin is still guilty ofcourse.  He let loose the Mountain like Ramsay set his hounds loose on the women he hunted and like Jon Snow set his man, Mance Rayder, loose on the north against the Boltons. Ramsay and Jon are as guilty as Tywin for the actions of the subordinates they set loose. 

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9 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't think there's any question that Tywin is capable of giving the order for Elia to be killed. And even if Tywin is telling the truth that he didn't explicitly order Gregor to kill Elia, or didn't explicitly order him not to, I strongly doubt Elia just slipped his mind. I find it more likely that Tywin gave Gregor a command or answer he knew would include Elia and any other living person they encountered, even if he didn't mention Elia by name. Even if it was as simple as, "leave no witnesses."

Always good to read your thoughts on any subject @Bael's Bastard and it looks like we whole heartedly agree on this part. We may still disagree on whether or not Tywin had reason to hide his order from Tyrion, if he gave it. I think the fact he has continued to hide his order to Jaime concerning Tysha would be a reason for him to hide a order to rape Elia from Tyrion. His "... even you will not accuse me of giving that command" is a dead giveaway that Tywin does not want Tyrion to figure out he had given such an order concerning Tysha. Implicit in his response is the idea that he would never ever give such an order, but we know he did just that in order to destroy Tyrion's marriage. Still not proof that Lord Lannister did give such an explicit command to Ser Gregor. I like your idea he may not have been quite so clear about details in his order to Clegane.

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

"ll this Lord Tywin endured, but when the king made his son and heir, Ser Jaime, a knight of the Kingsguard, he could abide it no longer. Lord Tywin at last resigned the Handship in 281 AC."

Tywin has given up his position close to court and any of his plans with it after Aerys took Jaime from him. It's literally said that he endured Aerys before that but when this happened he could no longer. It's a difference of Tywin still willing working for him and not not willing to do it. It's quite clearly that whatever hatred and resentment Tywin had for Aerys, he had more of it after Jaime was called to Kingsguard. It's a difference between not hating Aerys enough and hating him enough. I am not saying that before that he had no resentment towards him, I am saying that it was smaller than it eventually became. And saying that there is no difference between Tywin's feeling towards Aerys before and after he took Jaime and it was just Tywin being pissed off is simply silly, sorry. Pissing someone off makes him hate you or hate you more, by definition.

But Tywin has not given up any of his plans withon the court after Aerys took Jaime from him, do you really think that had the Targs prevailed Tywin wouldn't have tried to marry Cersei to the princes?? Tywin was fed  up with Aerys, but he already hated him before that, that would not have changed his plans.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

There was still relationship between them between Tywin's attempt to resign and Joanna's death. Years of relationship. Tywin probably simply felt he had a duty to protect his wife's honour back then. It didn't make him hate Aerys.

No, what made him hate Aerys was his comments about his dead wife and son, after Tywin's attempt of renouce came years of constant humilation.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

We know for a fact that Tywin left his position of Hand not out of fear for Cersei or for anything else. It's written in the text. If he so wanted for Cersei to still marry Rhaegar, he would have stayed as Hand if he was so afraid to leave Cersei alone in KL. Yet he didn't. He packed his things, took Cersei and left to Casterly Rock. It's clearly shows that marriage to Raeghar was no longer his goal.

What it's not written in the text is that Tywin ever gave up his goal of marrying Cersei to the royalty,  Tywin doesbit h ave to stay for Cersei, he can wait a few years until Aerys dies or show some signs of common sense. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

No, it's written straight in the text that he started to ignore Aerys' summons precisely because of the history between them. That by definition means he wasn't ambivalent. Tywin just didn't make his personal feelings get in the way of the interests of House Lannister, that's all, which is why he wasn't ready to mindlessly join the rebels.

???

Ambivalent:

having mixed feelings about someone or something; being unable to choose between two (usually opposing) courses of action:

 

How Tywin is not ambivalent when he did not mind joining Aerys early on?? He did not only join him because of their past relationship, he did it because he was not certain whose side would prevail and would only join th winner.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Cersei killed her best friend because she wanted to marry Jaime the same day she talked how she dreamed to marry Raeghar. And why do you think Cersei got Jaime in Kingsguard, in KL? What do you think Cersei expected to do in KL for her whole life? She still thought she was going to marry him and got Jaime into Kingsguard anyway. Her crush towards Raeghar has absolutely no relation to her possessiveness of Jaime whatsoever. Jaime and Raeghar is not a choice for her, for Cersei Jaime is a part of her that should belong to her regardless. 

Onlt because she wanted to marry Jaime?? The prophecy had nothing to do with it??  

When Cersei got Jaie into the KG Rhaegar was already married and Viserys was 8 years old, Jaime would marry long before Cersei got to marry either of them.

 

 

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

There is a difference between feeling humiliated right now and being once humiliated approximately a decade ago that doesn't matter anymore

It would not matter to you, it would to Tywin, that's why he dealt with his father's mistress the way he did and he had plenty of time to cope with the humilation.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/31/2020 at 11:26 PM, frenin said:

But Tywin has not given up any of his plans withon the court after Aerys took Jaime from him, do you really think that had the Targs prevailed Tywin wouldn't have tried to marry Cersei to the princes?? Tywin was fed  up with Aerys, but he already hated him before that, that would not have changed his plans.

So why did Tywin leave?

On 3/31/2020 at 11:26 PM, frenin said:

No, what made him hate Aerys was his comments about his dead wife and son, after Tywin's attempt of renouce came years of constant humilation.

What no. Tywin attempted to resign before Joanna's death, not after.

On 3/31/2020 at 11:26 PM, frenin said:

What it's not written in the text is that Tywin ever gave up his goal of marrying Cersei to the royalty,  Tywin doesbit h ave to stay for Cersei, he can wait a few years until Aerys dies or show some signs of common sense. 

If something changes and a chance appears, sure, Tywin would have probably tried again. At that point he wasn't actively trying for it to happen though.

On 3/31/2020 at 11:26 PM, frenin said:

How Tywin is not ambivalent when he did not mind joining Aerys early on?? He did not only join him because of their past relationship, he did it because he was not certain whose side would prevail and would only join th winner.

Tywin's inaction decided the winner. The loyalists wouldn't be a losing side if Tywin joined them when asked. But Tywin decided to ignore the calls because he hated Aerys. He was ready to join before when he didn't think that the rebels had a chance with or without him fighting them, once that chance appeared after the Battle of the Bells, Tywin decided he didn't want to quash these chances. Exactly because of his hatred towards Aerys. There are two motivations at play here for Tywin, personal and pragmatic. He personally didn't want to fight for Aerys but was ready to do so in order to not jeopardise the position of his House. If there was opportunity to not fight for him and not lose, he would and he did. Maybe the word ambivalent is correct here indeed, it doesn't change my point that Tywin didn't want to fight for Aerys because of his personal hatred.

On 3/31/2020 at 11:26 PM, frenin said:

Onlt because she wanted to marry Jaime?? The prophecy had nothing to do with it??  

No, it did not. 

"Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station."

Something between them entering the tent with Maggy the Frog and Melara's death made Cersei hate her to the point that she still insults her more than 20 years later. It's safe to assume that this hatred was why she killed Melara and it's also pretty obvious that the hate comes from Melara revealing she wanted to marry Jaime. The idea that Cersei killed her so that she doesn't speak about the prophecy as Melara suggested isn't implied anywhere in the books.

On 3/31/2020 at 11:26 PM, frenin said:

Jaime would marry long before Cersei got to marry either of them.

Which is why Cersei got him into the Kingsguard. So that he doesn't marry.

On 3/31/2020 at 11:26 PM, frenin said:

It would not matter to you, it would to Tywin, that's why he dealt with his father's mistress the way he did and he had plenty of time to cope with the humilation.

Tywin dealing with the mistress is not a comparable situation. The mistress was humiliating House Lannister in front of other people in Tywin's POV at the very time he punished her. There was no time passed between her humiliating Tywin and his punishment.

Edited by Dofs

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Posted (edited)

Even if he did not specifically order Gregor to kill or rape her. Tywin knows what Gregor is. Nobody will convince me that Tywin did not have some idea what was going to happen. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Random6661
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On 4/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, Dofs said:

So why did Tywin leave?

Because he was fed up with Aerys, not because he abandoned any plan he had for Cersei. 

 

 

 

On 4/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, Dofs said:

What no. Tywin attempted to resign before Joanna's death, not after.

I know, so... Didn't Tywin resign after years of constant humiliations??

 

 

On 4/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, Dofs said:

If something changes and a chance appears, sure, Tywin would have probably tried again. At that point he wasn't actively trying for it to happen though.

That's something we don't know. That's something you want to assume.

 

 

On 4/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, Dofs said:

Tywin's inaction decided the winner. The loyalists wouldn't be a losing side if Tywin joined them when asked. But Tywin decided to ignore the calls because he hated Aerys. He was ready to join before when he didn't think that the rebels had a chance with or without him fighting them, once that chance appeared after the Battle of the Bells, Tywin decided he didn't want to quash these chances. Exactly because of his hatred towards Aerys. There are two motivations at play here for Tywin, personal and pragmatic. He personally didn't want to fight for Aerys but was ready to do so in order to not jeopardise the position of his House. If there was opportunity to not fight for him and not lose, he would and he did. Maybe the word ambivalent is correct here indeed, it doesn't change my point that Tywin didn't want to fight for Aerys because of his personal hatred.

Nor it changes mine. Anyway, even if Tywin joins him, Tywin has no way to know if he's going to be defeated in battle or if more Houses are going to join Robert along the way, or if loyalist may change cloaks, since Tywin did not have any certainties he stayed put and ofc his hatred towards Tywin helped. But at that moment he did not know where the tide  would go.

 

 

 

 

On 4/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, Dofs said:

No, it did not. 

"Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station."

Something between them entering the tent with Maggy the Frog and Melara's death made Cersei hate her to the point that she still insults her more than 20 years later. It's safe to assume that this hatred was why she killed Melara and it's also pretty obvious that the hate comes from Melara revealing she wanted to marry Jaime. The idea that Cersei killed her so that she doesn't speak about the prophecy as Melara suggested isn't implied anywhere in the books.

??? You don't need to hate someone to insult them a year or 20 years after.  Nor Cersei's words come off as hatred, it comes as spiteful and agry. But she has never implied killing her because of that.

 

On 4/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, Dofs said:

Which is why Cersei got him into the Kingsguard. So that he doesn't marry.

Exactly, Cersei being already bethrothed or married could lower a lot of her obsession with Jaime.

 

 

 

On 4/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, Dofs said:

Tywin dealing with the mistress is not a comparable situation. The mistress was humiliating House Lannister in front of other people in Tywin's POV at the very time he punished her. There was no time passed between her humiliating Tywin and his punishment.

And how  Aerys telling Tywin that a master  does not marry his heir to his servant in front of the entire Realm is from his POV??

How there was no time passing?? Years passed between Tytos got her as mistress and his death. Years passed since he felt humiliated and him exacting his punishment.

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It seems that Tyrion believed Tywin gave the order:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX

"Is that the game we are playing?" Tyrion rubbed at his scarred nose. He had nothing to lose by telling Oberyn the truth. "There was a bear at Harrenhal, and it did kill Ser Amory Lorch."

"How sad for him," said the Red Viper. "And for you. Do all noseless men lie so badly, I wonder?"

"I am not lying. Ser Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys out from under her father's bed and stabbed her to death. He had some men-at-arms with him, but I do not know their names." He leaned forward. "It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon's head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still on his hands."

"What is this, now? Truth, from a Lannister?" Oberyn smiled coldly. "Your father gave the commands, yes?"

"No." He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should.

The Dornishman raised one thin black eyebrow. "Such a dutiful son. And such a very feeble lie. It was Lord Tywin who presented my sister's children to King Robert all wrapped up in crimson Lannister cloaks."

 

 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, frenin said:

Because he was fed up with Aerys, not because he abandoned any plan he had for Cersei. 

Why do you think he even wants to wed Cersei to Rhaegar? Tywin doesn't want to marry her to Rhaegar because of some kind of admiration of House Targaryen or anything like that. Tywin's goal was the same as as in a lot of stuff he does - to expand his House's power, influence and reputation. Making Cersei Queen is simply one of the ways to do it. And what is another way to achieve Tywin's goal? It's to hold a position of the Hand, the position of the second most powerful person in the Kingdom. The position he willingly abandons meaning that at this time, at least while Aerys is in power, increasing the power of House Lannister through the proximity to the court is no longer his priority and goal. He is not working on spreading his influence through being the Hand, he is no longer grooming Cersei in KL to marry a Targ. It's all abandoned. For Tywin doing this with Aerys became unbearable.

21 hours ago, frenin said:

I know, so... Didn't Tywin resign after years of constant humiliations??

He resigned after Aerys took his heir from him.

21 hours ago, frenin said:

That's something we don't know. That's something you want to assume.

 It's something that can be logically assumed from Tywin's actions. What you are arguing about are also assumptions, only you are arguing that 'even though Tywin does this, he still wants this". 

21 hours ago, frenin said:

Nor it changes mine. Anyway, even if Tywin joins him, Tywin has no way to know if he's going to be defeated in battle or if more Houses are going to join Robert along the way, or if loyalist may change cloaks, since Tywin did not have any certainties he stayed put and ofc his hatred towards Tywin helped. But at that moment he did not know where the tide  would go.

By that logic he should have been afraid to join Aerys even before Battle of the Bells.

Quote

since Tywin did not have any certainties he stayed put and ofc his hatred towards Tywin helped.

Except we are told that Tywin's relationship with Aerys is the reason why he stayed put.You make it sound like it's something insignificant, that didn't even matter.

21 hours ago, frenin said:

??? You don't need to hate someone to insult them a year or 20 years after. 

Yes, you kinda do, especially if that someone at some point was your best friend.

21 hours ago, frenin said:

Nor Cersei's words come off as hatred, it comes as spiteful and agry.

You and I might have different definitions of hatred, I guess. When you call your former friend a 'greedy little schemer', it means that something happened between you and you now hate him/her.

21 hours ago, frenin said:

But she has never implied killing her because of that.

She has never flat out told the reason she killed her period. It means connecting the dots. In the same day she started to hate her she killed her. Do you really think it's likely that these two events aren't connected whatsoever? Besides, this is the closest to her motivation that Martin gives us in the books.

21 hours ago, frenin said:

Exactly, Cersei being already bethrothed or married could lower a lot of her obsession with Jaime.

You are assuming something that is not characteristic of Cersei described in the books.

21 hours ago, frenin said:

And how  Aerys telling Tywin that a master  does not marry his heir to his servant in front of the entire Realm is from his POV??

Bad, so?

21 hours ago, frenin said:

How there was no time passing?? Years passed between Tytos got her as mistress and his death. Years passed since he felt humiliated and him exacting his punishment.

Tywin did not punish Tytos' mistress just because she was his mistress. That would be just silly, she wasn't even his first mistress anyway and there is no information that Tywin was hunting down Tytos' previous women, lol. What Tywin punished her for was the fact that she started to behave like Lady of Casterly Rock and even take his mother's things to wear. And that continued to happen up until Tytos' death.

Edited by Dofs

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5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It seems that Tyrion believed Tywin gave the order:

 

I don't think that quote really shows what you think it does. Tyrion is lying there. Tywin did gave the order to kill the royal children. Whether or not Tywin ordered Elia's death, a simple "no" was a lie.

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6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It seems that Tyrion believed Tywin gave the order:

 

Reread the quote. He's asking Tyrion if his father ordered the murder of the Targaryen children. That is the lie as Tyrion knows for a fact that his father did order those children to be murdered.

 

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6 hours ago, Dofs said:

Why do you think he even wants to wed Cersei to Rhaegar? Tywin doesn't want to marry her to Rhaegar because of some kind of admiration of House Targaryen or anything like that. Tywin's goal was the same as as in a lot of stuff he does - to expand his House's power, influence and reputation. Making Cersei Queen is simply one of the ways to do it. And what is another way to achieve Tywin's goal? It's to hold a position of the Hand, the position of the second most powerful person in the Kingdom. The position he willingly abandons meaning that at this time, at least while Aerys is in power, increasing the power of House Lannister through the proximity to the court is no longer his priority and goal. He is not working on spreading his influence through being the Hand, he is no longer grooming Cersei in KL to marry a Targ. It's all abandoned. For Tywin doing this with Aerys became unbearable.

You keep conflating things, yes Tywin was done with Aerys, that does not mean he stopped wanting to see Cersei as queen, he simply could not be around Aerys for the time being. If so, leaving Cersei at court and at Aerys's grasp while he was not in King's Landing simply would not be  sound. 

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

He resigned after Aerys took his heir from him.

So every other thing that Aerys did or said had no bearing whatsoever in his decision...

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

 It's something that can be logically assumed from Tywin's actions. What you are arguing about are also assumptions, only you are arguing that 'even though Tywin does this, he still wants this". 

No it something that can't. Since there are other reasons for him to want Cersei out of KL if he's not there, you're arguing that there is only one reason for Tywin's actions. Since we are never told or hinted that Tywin ever gave up his goal of marrying Cersei to royalty, i don't think he did.

 

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

By that logic he should have been afraid to join Aerys even before Battle of the Bells.

Before the Battle of the Bells Robert did not have the Tullys with him, which might be a reason for Tywin to start having second thoughts about it. It seems that after the Bells, Tywin just as Aerys started to take the robellion seriously.

 

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

Except we are told that Tywin's relationship with Aerys is the reason why he stayed put.You make it sound like it's something insignificant, that didn't even matter.

Because it was a factor, Tywin simply wanted to be on the winning side, he did not care who. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

Yes, you kinda do, especially if that someone at some point was your best friend.

No, you kinda don't. The relationship may be broken but hatred is too much of a strong word for it.

 

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

You and I might have different definitions of hatred, I guess. When you call your former friend a 'greedy little schemer', it means that something happened between you and you now hate him/her.

It seems so,  It does not mean that you hate him, it means that you're angry at him.

 

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

She has never flat out told the reason she killed her period. It means connecting the dots. In the same day she started to hate her she killed her. Do you really think it's likely that these two events aren't connected whatsoever? Besides, this is the closest to her motivation that Martin gives us in the books.

I think there was a mix of it. 

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

You are assuming something that is not characteristic of Cersei described in the books.

Don't know, the way Cersei talks, she was less fixed in Jaime when the Rhaegar dream was alive than after it.

 

 

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

Tywin did not punish Tytos' mistress just because she was his mistress. That would be just silly, she wasn't even his first mistress anyway and there is no information that Tywin was hunting down Tytos' previous women, lol. What Tywin punished her for was the fact that she started to behave like Lady of Casterly Rock and even take his mother's things to wear. And that continued to happen up until Tytos' death.

You're reading too much into my words, i did not say that Tywin was hunting his father's mistresees or anything of the sort. I know what Tywin punished, Tywin did not punish a behaviour that had started a month before his father's passing however. 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't think that quote really shows what you think it does. Tyrion is lying there. Tywin did gave the order to kill the royal children. Whether or not Tywin ordered Elia's death, a simple "no" was a lie. 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Reread the quote. He's asking Tyrion if his father ordered the murder of the Targaryen children. That is the lie as Tyrion knows for a fact that his father did order those children to be murdered.

I was pointing out that Tyion was lying, duh!

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6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

I was pointing out that Tyion was lying, duh!

Yes. We already know that.

He was lying about his father ordering the deaths of the Targaryen children. If that is what you meant in your post then fair enough.

@ Lyanna<3Rhaegar  lol I find it hilarious that you are the first to whine when you think others are being discourteous to you, but you constantly are condescending to others or upvoting comments like this. Thanks for this, I'm done walking on egg shells in my replies to you as this confirms that you have no interest in doing the same to others

 

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13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol I find it hilarious that you are the first to whine when you think others are being discourteous to you, but you constantly are condescending to others or upvoting comments like this. Thanks for this, I'm done walking on egg shells in my replies to you as this confirms that you have no interest in doing the same to others

? I think Rufus was just being silly, not rude & was being misunderstood. 

I'm not aware that I've whined about anything or that I've been condescending to someone, but if I have, I'll certainly apologize for it. 

I wasn't aware that you were walking on eggshells in your responses to me either but would encourage you not to because you certainly don't need to do that for my sake. As far as I remember it is typically you who gets upset when we conversate, not me. 

Sorry that I've offended you with my up vote though. 

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