Westworld IX; 03.22.20 Divergence - Westeros.org

[3CityApache]

On 3/26/2020 at 6:57 AM, DMC said:

the red herring bad guy from Ocean's 12

Seriously? Vincent Cassel was brilliant in everything he was in, with Hate and Public Enemy Number One being particularly shining gems.

I don't really like Dolores story, she just seems too cunning, too invincible for my taste.

I love Maeve though and her story in the second episode was great.

Bernard story, on the other hand, confuses me. I don't really see a point of him still being around. Perhaps I should have rewatched second season first.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Also I've seen you guys talk about how so and so could be Teddy, Clem, Angela etc. I'm pretty sure those three are dead dead.

Well, one would think it's going to be someone we actually know from the previous seasons, and other than those three I'm hard pressed to come up with many other hosts with even a modicum of characterization.  I guess Armistice, Akecheta, and Dolores' father would be the only other three I can think of off the top of my head.

7 minutes ago, 3CityApache said:

Seriously? Vincent Cassel was brilliant in everything he was in, with Hate and Public Enemy Number One being particularly shining gems.

I wasn't trying to disparage Cassel in any way, it's just that's what I recognize him from.  Haven't seen the two movies you mentioned

[red snow]

Episode 2 was ok as well, although walking dead style frustration could kick in if we only see the main story threads every other episode. But I'll give them some rope as this may well be the least confusing way of presenting the story and unlike walking dead things are happening and it's clearly not a cost-cutting exercise.

While it turned out to be a simulation i thought it was really interesting how sizemore treated the security staff vs maeve. Given episode 1 and a hint of the real world outside the park it seems like the rich treat the poor as vassals/sub-human with little thought to their actual value beyond serving them. Which makes how they behave in the park and towards the hosts much more understandable. More interesting though is how sizemore places more value on maeve than other humans simply because she is on his level or above.

I'm curious as to whether the interactions with staff were always like this. I think there were hints but not willing to rewatch.

[red snow]

6 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

Seriously? Vincent Cassel was brilliant in everything he was in, with Hate and Public Enemy Number One being particularly shining gems.

I don't really like Dolores story, she just seems too cunning, too invincible for my taste.

I love Maeve though and her story in the second episode was great.

Bernard story, on the other hand, confuses me. I don't really see a point of him still being around. Perhaps I should have rewatched second season first.

I think it's a bit similar to the problem other big shows have when a character/actor and they keep them in for fans despite their story having come to a natural end. Sopranos was notable for this in later seasons.

I agree that bernard feels like his story has run its course but the suggestion he is around as a check on delores could develop into something worthwhile. Even more glaring is not-chris Hemsworth and the uneccessary bringing back of the character.

[Nictarion]

7 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

Seriously? Vincent Cassel was brilliant in everything he was in, with Hate and Public Enemy Number One being particularly shining gems.

 

7 hours ago, DMC said:

I wasn't trying to disparage Cassel in any way, it's just that's what I recognize him from.  Haven't seen the two movies you mentioned

I haven’t seen those two either, but I mostly associate him with Eastern Promises and Black Swan. 

1 hour ago, red snow said:

I think it's a bit similar to the problem other big shows have when a character/actor and they keep them in for fans despite their story having come to a natural end. Sopranos was notable for this in later seasons.

Not sure I agree with that. Which characters specifically are you referring to from The Sopranos?

[Cas Stark]

I'm just not that interested in the 99% v. the 1% angle, we already know that the super rich are generally selfish assholes even when they create a shield of benevolence via philanthropy. I find that significantly less interesting than an exploration of free will, what it means to be human or what is the nature of reality.  I will be very disappointed if WW devolves into just another morality tale against capitalism. 

[RumHam]

I like that they were sending Drogon to some startup in Costa Rica. I would totally watch a Dragonrassic Park spin-off. 

So given what I said earlier about Dolores rebuilding Bernard from her memories it's a little weird he still remembers Maeve as someone who can help him counter Dolores. I guess maybe she gave him all her own memories? but that's weird. More likely they're just fudging it to say this Bernard does have his memories from the first two seasons, even though that doesn't make sense. 

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm just not that interested in the 99% v. the 1% angle, we already know that the super rich are generally selfish assholes even when they create a shield of benevolence via philanthropy. I find that significantly less interesting than an exploration of free will, what it means to be human or what is the nature of reality.  I will be very disappointed if WW devolves into just another morality tale against capitalism. 

Isn't it still about free will though? Against a machine that thinks it knows what everyone should be doing? 

[Cas Stark]

19 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I like that they were sending Drogon to some startup in Costa Rica. I would totally watch a Dragonrassic Park spin-off. 

So given what I said earlier about Dolores rebuilding Bernard from her memories it's a little weird he still remembers Maeve as someone who can help him counter Dolores. I guess maybe she gave him all her own memories? but that's weird. More likely they're just fudging it to say this Bernard does have his memories from the first two seasons, even though that doesn't make sense. 

Isn't it still about free will though? Against a machine that thinks it knows what everyone should be doing? 

It depends on where they take her story, if it becomes about Skynet AI vs. AI human like robots vs. biological humans, then maybe. If it becomes a story of the downtrodden poor v. the evil rich, then I will be bored, plus, Anthony Hopkins already told us that the real world has cured all diseases and humans no longer has anything to strive for...which seemingly would also mean that real poverty has also been eliminated, so it can't get too dsytopian in terms of haves/have nots without creating a huge inconsistency.  Not that that matters to everyone.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

I guess maybe she gave him all her own memories? but that's weird. More likely they're just fudging it to say this Bernard does have his memories from the first two seasons, even though that doesn't make sense. 

I don't think it necessarily doesn't make sense, at least within the logic of the show.  After all, the "original" Bernard had Arnold's memories of his son Charlie dying programmed into him by Ford all the way to his core or "cornerstone."  If Ford could do that, I don't think it's too much of a stretch that Dolores programmed in Bernard's memories up to the point she killed him.

[RumHam]

47 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't think it necessarily doesn't make sense, at least within the logic of the show.  After all, the "original" Bernard had Arnold's memories of his son Charlie dying programmed into him by Ford all the way to his core or "cornerstone."  If Ford could do that, I don't think it's too much of a stretch that Dolores programmed in Bernard's memories up to the point she killed him.

I assumed Ford gave Bernard a cornerstone that was as close as he could approximate to Arnold's child's death. The kid probably looked like Arnold's kid and had the same name, Ford probably even knew Arnold's son a little. But Bernard's cornerstone memory doesn't have to be a 1:1 recreation of what Arnold experienced when he lost his son. 

[unJon]

Crack pot: It’s AI William in Charlotte’s body. 

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, unJon said:

Crack pot: It’s AI William in Charlotte’s body. 

I think it's still a Dolores copy. And that's why it's gonna go nuts. Dolores is a fully conscious entity, and those don't survive the copying process.

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, RumHam said:

The kid probably looked like Arnold's kid and had the same name, Ford probably even knew Arnold's son a little. But Bernard's cornerstone memory doesn't have to be a 1:1 recreation of what Arnold experienced when he lost his son. 

Fair enough.  But you could say the same thing about Bernard's "memories" of Maeve, Dolores et al.  I mean, based on his statement in last week's episode (and really even the season 2 finale), this version of Bernard clearly seems to have the same grasp of Dolores' intentions as the previous version of Bernard.  Both how and why Dolores did that are difficult questions.  I'm very interested in the why, but the how?  Meh, that just seems to be going down a rabbit hole I don't care about, happy to suspend disbelief considering programming "memories" into hosts is well-established within the show.

3 minutes ago, unJon said:

Crack pot: It’s AI William in Charlotte’s body. 

I wouldn't necessarily call that crackpot.  I expect one of Dolores' five "spheres" to be William.

[RumHam]

25 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I think it's still a Dolores copy. And that's why it's gonna go nuts. Dolores is a fully conscious entity, and those don't survive the copying process.

I like that. 

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

Fair enough.  But you could say the same thing about Bernard's "memories" of Maeve, Dolores et al.  I mean, based on his statement in last week's episode (and really even the season 2 finale), this version of Bernard clearly seems to have the same grasp of Dolores' intentions as the previous version of Bernard.  Both how and why Dolores did that are difficult questions. 

Him understanding Dolores' intentions is one thing. That's easy for her to program and she clearly wanted some form of host-based opposition. You could argue she gave him all her memories, or gave him knowledge about Maeve to even the field. But until/unless it's clarified it's odd. 

But then it'll turn out this Bernard is in an alternate universe or simulation or something. 

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

  I'm very interested in the why, but the how?  Meh, that just seems to be going down a rabbit hole I don't care about, happy to suspend disbelief considering programming "memories" into hosts is well-established within the show.

Right, I'm willing to accept it and move on. I'd have rather Bernard 2.0 had all his old memories, or like re-downloaded them from some secret backup in the room with all the old Bernard bodies. 

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

I expect one of Dolores' five "spheres" to be William.

Can someone clarify something for me? I understood the white "pearls" to be host brains and the black speckled "spheres" to be copies of human brains. Are they just different storage devices that can hold either? Or did Dolores steal five "books" from the forge at the end of last season? 

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I understood the white "pearls" to be host brains and the black speckled "spheres" to be copies of human brains.

Yeah my bad, I meant one of her five pearls not the spheres.  Although you raise a good question - will robot William, who you gotta assume is coming back one way or another, be a pearl or a sphere?  I still need to rewatch the first two seasons.  Saw the season 2 finale right before the premiere two weeks ago, but that's it.

[RumHam]

Just now, DMC said:

Yeah my bad, I meant one of her five pearls not the spheres.  Although you raise a good question - will robot William, who you gotta assume is coming back one way or another, be a pearl or a sphere?  I still need to rewatch the first two seasons.  Saw the season 2 finale right before the premiere two weeks ago, but that's it.

No, sorry actually I didn't mean to imply you were wrong. I believe she did take out five speckled spheres. I know Bernard had a sphere in season two in his pocket for a bit that I assumed was Ford who he put into the cradle. But I may be remembering wrong even though I just re-watched it. 

Maybe the spheres are inside the pearls and the white part is just the host body interface? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Called it. 

[Jace, Extat]

What?

[Corvinus85]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Called it. 

Called what?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

What?

 

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Called what?

A dream within a dream.