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Lady Anna

Hammer of the Waters

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This isn't a detailed theory, just an ideia bouncing around in my head (I'm sorry if this has been discussed before :)).

So in the backstory the Children of the Forest - more specifically, the greenseers - used the ''hammer of the waters'' to break the land between Dorne and Essos, to stop the First Men from coming. Then they tried again - from the wiki:

At some point, the greenseers attempted to use the hammer of the waters, working from the Children's Tower of Moat Cailin, to break the lands of Westeros in two.[1][3] However, this created the boggy Neck instead of separate landmasses. It is unknown if this occurred during the same event as the breaking of the Arm of Dorne, or at a different time. The histories say that the crannogmen grew close to the children in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck.[7] Despite the lack of complete separation, the bogs and swamps of the Neck have proved an effective natural defense, and the First Men-held Moat Cailin never fell during the Andal invasion of Westeros.[8]

I'm thinking, could they try this again? Maybe as a way to stop the Others from advancing south. Also we haven't seen the Neck yet, that is, Howland Reed and whatever is going on with him there. The underlined part is the explanation for why the crannogmen haven't completely forgotten the old ways. Could there still be a connection there?

Additionally, if Westeros is physically split in two, the North could become a separate political entity, a completely different nation, maybe with a Stark (ahem) as King or Queen of the North, with no ties to the rest of Westeros.

The thing is, Bloodraven and Bran are the only greenseers left (please correct me if I'm wrong), so I don't know if they have the power to invoke such a magic. Though we don't know exactly how that was done.

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I think that feat requires joined forces of many powerful magicians among children of the forest / greenseers and I don´t think many of them are left in current ASOIAF universe.

 

Also I don´t think Martin would go that high with magic usage and fantasy elements.

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I agree w/ @Putin, I think having something similar to the HotW happen on page, live, would be “higher fantasy”, as it were, than what I believe Martin is going for in the story. That would be quite different from a legend about this incredible (possible) feat of magic that happened thousands of years ago... maybe it did happen, maybe it was a tsunami or another natural cataclysmic event, and the reader will never know for sure. 

I also don’t think there would be much of a point in trying to split Westeros into two (N/S) to keep the WWs from going south... :dunno:

 

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Thank you for your replies.

I do think there will be stronger magical feats in the books, but maybe not so big as this one. Thinking about it, it would probably require a stronger surge of magic than the one that currently exists and I guess the greenseers powers are declining in general.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

Thank you for your replies.

I do think there will be stronger magical feats in the books, but maybe not so big as this one. Thinking about it, it would probably require a stronger surge of magic than the one that currently exists and I guess the greenseers powers are declining in general.

Well, as far as we know, there’s only two greenseers left, and one is hooked to the tree to stay alive and the other, as powerful as he might get, is still in training. 

There’s a bit about it in the WB.

TWoIaF, The Breaking

“The children fought back as best they could, but the First Men were larger and stronger. Riding their horses, clad and armed in bronze, the First Men overwhelmed the elder race wherever they met, for the weapons of the children were made of bone and wood and dragonglass. Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.
And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time.
Or so the legend says.”

Edited by kissdbyfire

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I also think there will be some stronger magical feats.It would probably be related to others , maybe something that will break the Wall. With others coming maybe we will see more children of the forest appearing , which means stronger magic feats .

Maybe there will be some connection between powerful magic and Azor Ahai.

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Things like the Hammer of the Waters may have originated from the shattered dragon moon. So they might have had a limited amount of ammo. 

Though perhaps the Red Comet could still be used as a WMD if the right ritual was performed to call it down. 

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I agree that is too "high fantasy/magic" of a thing to happen on page. That being said, since magic is said to be 'coming back with the dragons' (I am paraphrasing), what about the Green Men and the Isle of Faces? Could they contribute in some way? I think I remember a SSM with something about the Green Men/Isle of Faces going to come up in some capacity before the series ends, but I could be mistaken.

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22 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

I agree that is too "high fantasy/magic" of a thing to happen on page. That being said, since magic is said to be 'coming back with the dragons' (I am paraphrasing), what about the Green Men and the Isle of Faces? Could they contribute in some way? I think I remember a SSM with something about the Green Men/Isle of Faces going to come up in some capacity before the series ends, but I could be mistaken.

Definitely a possibility. And yes, I seem to remember reading something about this from Martin as well... 

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36 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

I agree that is too "high fantasy/magic" of a thing to happen on page. That being said, since magic is said to be 'coming back with the dragons' (I am paraphrasing), what about the Green Men and the Isle of Faces? Could they contribute in some way? I think I remember a SSM with something about the Green Men/Isle of Faces going to come up in some capacity before the series ends, but I could be mistaken.

 

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Definitely a possibility. And yes, I seem to remember reading something about this from Martin as well... 

Hope you don't mind me butting in, but it does seem as though GRRM has on page plans for the Isle of Faces. He said this at some bookstore/interview in 1999:

Linda: Will we see or hear anything of the green men on the Isle of Faces? If not, what are they like? Just a secluded order that's never bothered, and has no role in the events of the Seven Kingdoms?

GRRM: The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books. (Boy, it's tough to sneak anything by you guys.)

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Posted (edited)

@Ser Leftwich, here it is, good ser.

 

Linda Will we see or hear anything of the green men on the Isle of Faces? If not, what are they like? Just a secluded order that's never bothered, and has no role in the events of the Seven Kingdoms?
George_RR_Martin

The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books. (Boy, it's tough to sneak anything by you guys.)

 

:ninja:‘d by @The Fattest Leech

Edited by kissdbyfire

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I don’t think completely submerging the Neck would work against the wights regardless of whether it is possible or not. In Cotter Pyke’s letter from Hardhome to Jon he says there are “dead things in the water”. A section of the description of Hardhome In AWOIAF is “Hardhome was once the only settlement approaching a town in the lands beyond the Wall, sheltered on Storrold's Point and commanding a deepwater harbor.” So Hardhome has deep waters, and if the wights can travel in those waters they would likely not be impeded by a submerged Neck.

I think if this does end up happening, it will be because of the green men on the Isle of Faces, not because of Bran or Bloodraven.

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On 3/25/2020 at 10:49 AM, Lady Anna said:

Additionally, if Westeros is physically split in two, the North could become a separate political entity, a completely different nation, maybe with a Stark (ahem) as King or Queen of the North, with no ties to the rest of Westeros.

So you think the north could fight off the Others on their own?  I don't believe they can.  The Starks will bargain with the Others in return to have rule over the north.  That is the most probably outcome if your idea of a physically separated continent were to happen.

The hammer of the past was nothing more than global cooling.  The sea dropped and the step stones effectively became a land bridge.  

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15 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

So you think the north could fight off the Others on their own?  I don't believe they can.  The Starks will bargain with the Others in return to have rule over the north.  That is the most probably outcome if your idea of a physically separated continent were to happen.

:lol:

15 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The hammer of the past was nothing more than global cooling.  The sea dropped and the step stones effectively became a land bridge.  

Erhm... no. Westeros and Essos were connected before. Meaning, a land bridge existed before, and now it’s gone. 

The Breaking

The Breaking is the Dornish name for the destruction of the Arm of Dorne, the land bridge which once connected southern Westeros and southwestern Essos.[1]

The hammer of the waters resulted in the Breaking, the shattering of the Arm of Dorne into the Stepstones and the Broken Arm, separating Westeros from Essos.[2]Unfortunately for the children, it was too late, for the First Men already had a foothold in Westeros. However, the cataclysm proved the strength of the children's power, and may have proved instrumental in bringing the First Men to agree to the terms of the Pact on the Isle of Faces. The agreement ended hostilities, and marked four thousand years of friendship between the two races.[6]

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Yes, ASOIAF has been a low-magic fantasy so far, but GRRM likes to break stereotypes.  It wouldn't surpries me (much) if some really powerful magical forces show up later, what with characters like Marwyn and Quaithe hanging around.  I don't know about the Hammer, though.  That would be a huge event; and I don't see how something of that magnitude would advance the story.

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3 hours ago, Aebram said:

I don't know about the Hammer, though.  That would be a huge event; and I don't see how something of that magnitude would advance the story.

I imagine if it was used in the upcoming story, that it would be the event that brings down the Wall. Possibly being called down by the use of a magic horn.  

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5 hours ago, Aebram said:

Yes, ASOIAF has been a low-magic fantasy so far, but GRRM likes to break stereotypes.  It wouldn't surpries me (much) if some really powerful magical forces show up later, what with characters like Marwyn and Quaithe hanging around.  I don't know about the Hammer, though.  That would be a huge event; and I don't see how something of that magnitude would advance the story.

Maybe it ends the story :D

No but I agree with you guys that this might be too much high fantasy. It was just a little ideia.

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On 3/25/2020 at 3:58 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Well, as far as we know, there’s only two greenseers left, and one is hooked to the tree to stay alive and the other, as powerful as he might get, is still in training. 

There’s a bit about it in the WB.

TWoIaF, The Breaking

“The children fought back as best they could, but the First Men were larger and stronger. Riding their horses, clad and armed in bronze, the First Men overwhelmed the elder race wherever they met, for the weapons of the children were made of bone and wood and dragonglass. Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.
And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time.
Or so the legend says.”

That sounds familiar...maybe George has been setting up a similar event with a certain horn.

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