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Mrstrategy

Could Tywin has killed his father tytos

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Tywin is considered one of the most ruthless men in the world of ASOIF destroying two of his rebellious vassals and organising the red wedding that killed/captured most of the north/riverlands leadership that was at war with him by breaking guest rights.i was wondering could he had been ruthless enough to commit patricide and kills his father tytos  to end what he believes a unfit rule that destroying house Lannister power and position as Lord Paramount of the west and Lord of Casterly rock blaming the death on depression/sickness

 

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Posted (edited)

Why would he need to? He was the Hand of the King and likely the defacto ruler of the Westerlands even while his father lived. The issues with Tytos was that he was an ineffective leader who left it to others, his more powerful and respected son taking the reins is not going to be an issue.

Perhaps if Tytos was a different kind of man, an actual obstacle in Tywin's way you could make a case, but he was not, he was what Sam would have became had he stayed at Horn Hill.

Edited by Bernie Mac

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36 minutes ago, Mrstrategy said:

Tywin is considered one of the most ruthless men in the world of ASOIF destroying two of his rebellious vassals and organising the red wedding that killed/captured most of the north/riverlands leadership that was at war with him by breaking guest rights.i was wondering could he had been ruthless enough to commit patricide and kills his father tytos  to end what he believes a unfit rule that destroying house Lannister power and position as Lord Paramount of the west and Lord of Casterly rock blaming the death on depression/sickness

 

We have no idea to what degree Tywin was involved in the planning of the Red Wedding.  For all we know he just told the Frey's to 'get it done' and knew nothing of the planning. It is disingenuous to say that he "organised" the Red Wedding.  

Not to say he isn't ruthless, but there is no reason at all to believe that Tywin planned the specifics or even the generalities of the Red Wedding.

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The moment Tywin crushed Tarbecks and Reynes without his father permission its clear he was going to be in charge of everything despite his father still being head of house on paper. Later Tywin become hand of the king which gave him more power .

Anyway Tywin is not kinslayer , if he was Tyrion would be dead the moment he was born.

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I don't think Tywin above it, he was prepared to murder Tyrion without qualms. It certainly would add some spice to being murdered by his own son.

 

Oth we have the taboo on kinslaying which people take seriously and its a big risk for someone who is super concerned about his legacy, especially when he is already Lord-but-in-name and Kings Hand. Like, if he didn't do it when Tytos betrothed Gemma to a Frey or when the mistress flaunted dead mothers jewels and clothes; when would he? I could see it if Tytos started talking betrothals of the golden twins far beneath what Tywin had planned, though.

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He may certainly be ruthless enough but as Bernie Mac said why would he? He didn't have much reason to. 

33 minutes ago, Sigella said:

don't think Tywin above it, he was prepared to murder Tyrion without qualms. It certainly would add some spice to being murdered by his own son

It wouldn't have been Tywin's hand killing Tyrion - that's likely how it justified it & avoided thinking it was kinslaying. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would he need to? He was the Hand of the King and likely the defacto ruler of the Westerlands even while his father lived. The issues with Tytos was that he was an ineffective leader who left it to others, his more powerful and respected son taking the reins is not going to be an issue.

Perhaps Tytos' behaviour, which would be humiliating (in Tywin's eyes) for house Lannister, could have been the a motivation that he needed to murder his father.

Tytos openly kept a lowborn mistress at Casterly Rock, and was giving her as presents the jewels that had belonged to Tywin's mother. That's something that Tywin would want to stop. And we have no reason to believe that even after Castamere, Tytos did not continue to be as prodigal as usual. If he was giving away the wealth of the family, Tywin would also want to put and end to it.

17 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

We have no idea to what degree Tywin was involved in the planning of the Red Wedding.  For all we know he just told the Frey's to 'get it done' and knew nothing of the planning. It is disingenuous to say that he "organised" the Red Wedding. 

While it is true that we have no reason to believe that Tywin directly organized the Red Wedding, I think it's reasonable to assume that Walder Frey would have never dared to do something as outrageous without making sure that Tywin would pardon them afterwards. Probably Tywin didnt get into the details, and possibly the idea wasn't even his, but I'm sure that he knew of the plan beforehand and gave his OK.

Edited by The hairy bear

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Perhaps Tytos' behaviour, which would be humiliating (in Tywin's eyes) for house Lannister, could have been the a motivation that he needed to murder his father.

Sure, that could have happened. Anything could have happened. But I just don't buy that it did. Tytos' misrule seems to have came to an end after the end of the Reyne Tarbeck wars (at least as far as we know). Tywin was likely still embarrassed/disappointed about his father, just like he has been embarrassed/disappointed about Tyrion's exploits for almost a decade. But I don't think either crime was enough for Tywin to murder his father, just like it was not enough to murder his son.

Tywin is obviously capable of evil acts, just like many powerful lords have been throughout history. It is why he's such a believable character. Him murdering family members due to embarrassment turns him into a pantomime villain. 

 

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Tytos openly kept a lowborn mistress at Casterly Rock, and was giving her as presents the jewels that had belonged to Tywin's mother. That's something that Tywin would want to stop.

This is one of my pet peeves in the fandom. People use this kind of argument all the time to make their point in different scenarios.

Tywin may well want it to stop. That does not mean he is going to resort to murder for it. Being against something does not make murder a likely response. Even to someone like Tywin. Tyrion lasting as long as he did, and only being brought down when he was seen by the entire court of having killed the King should be evidence enough that Tywin can put up with being embarrassed without the need to murder or even punish

Tytos grew fat in later life and died of a heart attack. He was almost 50, he would have outlived the majority of the Targaryen kings. Only Aegon I, Jaehaerys I and Egg (just about) lived a decade more than him. Hoster Tully is pushing 60 and on his death bed. Men who live to the age of the Freys or Jon Arryn are a rarity in Westeros. Tytos was very much in the Henry VIII mould, a glutton who died long before his time as he could satisfy his vices when he wanted.

 

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And we have no reason to believe that even after Castamere, Tytos did not continue to be as prodigal as usual. If he was giving away the wealth of the family, Tywin would also want to put and end to it.

He was hardly giving away huge sums.

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While it is true that we have no reason to believe that Tywin directly organized the Red Wedding,

He didn't. We know who directly organized it.

Lord Walder had ordered the slaughter of the Starks at Roslin's wedding, but it had been Lame Lothar who had plotted it out with Roose Bolton

Tywin rewarded it and knew of it beforehand, but there is zero indication that he organized it.

 

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I think it's reasonable to assume that Walder Frey would have never dared to do something as outrageous without making sure that Tywin would pardon them afterwards.

I think GRRM has clarified the reason why Walder did what he did.

What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

Pretty clear that it was vengeance Walder was after.

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Probably Tywin didnt get into the details, and possibly the idea wasn't even his, but I'm sure that he knew of the plan beforehand and gave his OK.

Yes. Absolutely. How does relate to him murdering his father?

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin is obviously capable of evil acts, just like many powerful lords have been throughout history. It is why he's such a believable character. Him murdering family members due to embarrassment turns him into a pantomime villain.

I wouldn't put kinslaying past him. As I see it, what he did to his son with Tysha is far worse than poisoning his father.

I'd agree that murder doesn't seem the most likely explanation for Tytos' death. But I wouldn't discard it either.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin may well want it to stop. That does not mean he is going to resort to murder for it. 

Totally. No one said that. I was just saying that Tywin may have had one motivation, but that doesn't mean that he did it.

Considering the possibility does not equal to declaring him guilty.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was hardly giving away huge sums.

I don't think we can know.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. Absolutely. How does relate to him murdering his father?

Mrstrategy says in his OP that Tywin was a very ruthless man, and among other examples to support it he states that he organized the Red Wedding. Ser Leftwich rightly states that we cannot assume that Tywin "organized" the Red Wedding. I mentioned that even if he didn't organize it, he had to approve it.

In any case, I'm sure that Tywin was a really ruthless individual. Not much debate here. :)

Edited by The hairy bear

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On 3/25/2020 at 2:48 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

We have no idea to what degree Tywin was involved in the planning of the Red Wedding.  For all we know he just told the Frey's to 'get it done' and knew nothing of the planning. It is disingenuous to say that he "organised" the Red Wedding.  

Not to say he isn't ruthless, but there is no reason at all to believe that Tywin planned the specifics or even the generalities of the Red Wedding.

I’m not sure I can agree w/ you here. I mean, I get it... it’s never spelled out how much was planned directly by Tywin, but there’s a couple of passages that, IMO, very much suggest he was the main architect behind the RW.

ASoS, Tyrion I

“Joffrey and Margaery shall marry on the first day of the new year, which as it happens is also the first day of the new century. The ceremony will herald the dawn of a new era.”
A new Lannister era, thought Tyrion. “Oh, bother, I fear I’ve made other plans for that day.”
“Did you come here just to complain of your bedchamber and make your lame japes? I have important letters to finish.”
“Important letters. To be sure.”
“Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens.”

 

ASoS, Tyrion VI

“The boy is thirteen. There is time yet.” Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. “He requires a sharp lesson.”
Tyrion had gotten his own sharp lesson at thirteen. He felt almost sorry for his nephew. On the other hand, no one deserved it more. “Enough of Joffrey,” he said. “Wars are won with quills and ravens, wasn’t that what you said? I must congratulate you. How long have you and Walder Frey been plotting this?
“I mislike that word,” Lord Tywin said stiffly.
“And I mislike being left in the dark.”
There was no reason to tell you. You had no part in this.”
“Was Cersei told?” Tyrion demanded to know.” 

No one was told, save those who had a part to play. And they were only told as much as they needed to know. You ought to know that there is no other way to keep a secret—here, especially. My object was to rid us of a dangerous enemy as cheaply as I could, not to indulge your curiosity or make your sister feel important.” He closed the shutters, frowning. “You have a certain cunning, Tyrion, but the plain truth is you talk too much. That loose tongue of yours will be your undoing.”

 

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Tywin clearly said something like "It would be a shame if something bad happened to Robb" to the Freys and/or Roose, I agree. But if it was all by bird, it couldn't be details. It would have to be vague organized crime like promises, "you do me a favor, I do you a favor" Tywin also may have reached out or dealt with Bolton separately from the Freys.

"It was to be an arrow, at Edmure Tully's wedding feast. The boy was too wary in the field. He kept his men in good order, and surrounded himself with outriders and bodyguards." - Tyrion VI (ASoS)

The second part clearly shows that the Freys came up with other ideas of how to get rid of Robb, but the elaborate murder of so many at the wedding and outside was planned by the Freys and Bolton.

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not sure I can agree w/ you here. I mean, I get it... it’s never spelled out how much was planned directly by Tywin, but there’s a couple of passages that, IMO, very much suggest he was the main architect behind the RW.

No one was told, save those who had a part to play. And they were only told as much as they needed to know. You ought to know that there is no other way to keep a secret—here, especially. My object was to rid us of a dangerous enemy as cheaply as I could, not to indulge your curiosity or make your sister feel important.” He closed the shutters, frowning. “You have a certain cunning, Tyrion, but the plain truth is you talk too much. That loose tongue of yours will be your undoing.”

 

As for this bit, I think the first bold bit was also what was told to Tywin by the Freys and Bolton as well as vice versa. Tywin also corresponded with while Bolton was at Harrenhal. I doubt that the Freys and Bolton told each other the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Tywin definitely promised them both the King's peace for ending the Stark rebellion, but I just don't think he planned it.

 

Back to the OP, I agree with someone up thread that Tywin not having Tyrion killed is a good indicator that he wouldn't have had his father killed.

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18 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I wouldn't put kinslaying past him. As I see it, what he did to his son with Tysha is far worse than poisoning his father.

That is not true. Murdering someone is much worse than what Tywin did to Tyrion. Rightly or wrongly, from Tywin's elitist perspective, he did not think the feelings Tyrion had for the homeless peasant he had only recently met were genuine.

You can argue what he did to Tysha was as just as bad as 'murdering his father', but not what he did to Tyrion.

18 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'd agree that murder doesn't seem the most likely explanation for Tytos' death. But I wouldn't discard it either.

Then we are on the exact same page. It is unlikely that Tywin killed his father. No one has argued it is impossible, this is a fantasy novel after all.

18 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

 

Considering the possibility does not equal to declaring him guilty.

I never claimed it did. I have not told anyone of what they can and can't say, I've just challenged the idea that it was likely.

18 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think we can know.

Do you not think the history of the Westerlands would have covered it? Or even Kevan?

Tytos was certainly generous, but there is nothing to indicate his generosity was endangering the Lannister's wealth.

 

 

 

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