Tysha - who is to blame?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

In light of some recent, very touchy subject threads, that we have been able to mostly discuss civilly & peacefully - and because it has been brought up in another thread very recently, I would like to touch on this subject. 

When we first hear the tale of Tyrion & Tysha, Tyrion & Bronn are sitting around a fire, waiting for the clansmen to attack them. Tyrion starts to whistle a tune & asks Bronn if he has heard it before.

              "You hear it here and there, in inns and whore-houses."

              "Myrish. 'The Seasons of My Love.' Sweet and sad, if you understand the words. The first girl I ever bedded used to sing it, and I've never been able to put it out of my head." Tyrion gazed up at the sky. It was a clear cold night and the stars shone down upon the mountains as bright and merciless as truth. "I met her on a night like this," he heard himself saying. "Jaime and I were riding back from Lannisport when we heard a scream, and she came running out into the road with two men dogging her heels, shouting threats. My brother unsheathed his sword and went after them, while I dismounted to protect the girl. She was scarcely a year older than I was, dark-haired, slender, with a face that would break your heart. It certainly broke mine. Low-born, half-starved, unwashed... yet  lovely. They'd torn the rags she was wearing half off her back, so I wrapped her in my cloak while Jaime chased the men into the woods. By the time he came trotting back, I'd gotten a name out of her, and a story. She was a crofter's child, orphaned when her father died of fever, on her way to... well, nowhere, really.

             "Jaime was all in a lather to hunt down the men. It was not often outlaws dared prey on travelers so near to Casterly Rock, and he took it as an insult. The girl was too frightened to send off by herself, though, so I offered to take her to the closest inn and feed her while my brother rode back to the Rock for help. 

           "She was hungrier than I would have believed. We finished two whole chickens and part of a third, and drank a flagon of wine, talking. I was only thirteen, and the wine went to my head, I fear. The next thing I knew, I was sharing her bed. If she was shy, I was shyer. I'll never know where I found the courage. When I broke her maidenhead, she wept, but afterward she kissed me and sang her little song, and by morning I was in love"

I think we all know this account. A few key things - Tyrion was only 13 & Tysha only scarcely older. They were both shy in bed. Tyrion broke her maidenhead & then admits to falling in love. 

                "You?" Bronn's voice was amused.

               "Absurd, isn't it?" Tyrion began to whistle the song again. "I married her," he finally admitted. 

              "A Lannister of Casterly Rock wed to a crofter's daughter," Bronn said. "How did you manage that?"

               "Oh, you'd be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon. I dared not bring my bride home to Casterly Rock, so I set her up in a cottage of her own, and for a fortnight we played at being man and wife. And then the septon sobered and confessed all to my lord father." 

I think it goes without saying that this experience has changed Tyrion immensely but just to note, Bronn is shocked that someone like Tyrion would have fallen in love so easily. Also of note: He dared not bring her home to Casterly Rock. He doesn't say what it is his father would have done but clearly there were expected repercussions. Also, we don't know exactly what lies Tyrion told the septon, I don't know if the lies are important, just noting that we don't know what lies there were. 

              "Tyrion was surprised at how desolate it made him feel to say it, even after all these years. Perhaps he was just tired. "That was the end of my marriage." 

             "He sent the girl away?"

            "He did better than that," Tyrion said. "First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time. 

              "After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she..." The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. "Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more."

          After a time he heard the noise again, the rasp of steel on stone as Bronn sharpened his sword. "Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me."

        Tyrion swung around to face him. "You may get the chance one day. Remember what I told you. A Lannister always pays his debts." He yawned. "I think I will try and sleep. Wake me if we're about to die."

Alright. I don't think anyone questions that Tysha was raped & that's not the topic of the thread. What I'm interested in is how much, if any, is Tyrion to blame here? To me the language makes it very clear who is in charge here - Tywin brought Tysha in, gave her to his guards, sat Tyrion in the corner & bade him watch, had him go last. Plus the fact that Tyrion is only 13 & not a man in his own right, even in universe, spells out to me pretty clear that Tyrion didn't have much choice in the matter. Bronn seems to understand right & well that this was something done to Tyrion & not something Tyrion willingly participated in. 

After this Tysha is mentioned repeatedly by Tyrion. Usually, as a reminder to himself to not let his guard down in regards to Shae & his feelings. Sometimes he has fond memories, occasionally he dreams of her. Eventually his brother tells him the truth of the matter - Tysha was not a whore, but a crofter's daughter, in love with Tyrion, just as she seemed. Tyrion kills Tywin & Shae & spends the next umpteen chapters asking where whores go?? 

There are some more quotes to consider: 

He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been. You would think he might remember that, but no. A dozen? A score? A hundred? He could not say. They had all been grown men, tall and strong … though all men were tall to a dwarf of thirteen years. Tysha knew their number. Each of them had given her a silver stag, so she would only need to count the coins. A silver for each and a gold for me. His father had insisted that he pay her too. A Lannister always pays his debts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I'll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

The first quote seems to reaffirm Tywin is in charge here. I've seen it argued the other three quotes mean that Tyrion could have stopped the situation, or the least, he thinks he could have. That isn't how I read them. 

For the first quote, I don't think he is truly saying he helped the guards men - what help would the guardsmen need from him? He is acknowledging his own participation in the incident. As in he, along with, the guards men, raped her. 

For the second again, I don't think he truly believes he let them rape her. That implies that had he not let them, they wouldn't have. We have already established that Tywin is in control here. The guardsmen are not going to disobey a command given to them by Tywin just because Tyrion says so. I think this is more guilt talking. He is saying he let them rape her in the same way a parent might say "I let my child get hurt" or a man might say "I let the home invaders beat up my wife." Not because the parent hurt the child or the man participated in beating up his wife, but because they did not stop it, could not stop it, when it would be considered their job to do so. It is a parent's job to protect their child, a man's job to protect his wife & having failed in that job they feel guilty. 

The last quote has more to unpack & more unknowns I think. Firstly - I should have defied him. Well, could he have defied him? We don't really know. We don't know how Tywin made Tyrion participate, what threats may or may not have been used etc. I do think it's safe to say Tywin didn't merely suggest to Tyrion for him to watch a bunch of guardsmen rape his wife & then for him to do so also, even believing she is a whore. This is clearly a traumatic situation for Tyrion & he does not think of it fondly. I think there would have to be more force involved than a mere suggestion or question. But was it a command with nothing else? No threats, no "if you don't"s? Or did Tywin make it perfectly clear to Tyrion what would happen if he didn't obey his command? I'm not sure & I don't think we can say for certain. 

"But my cock betrayed me" so Tyrion didn't want to rape Tysha, didn't want to have sex with her even but became aroused anyway. This is not something really within his control, he is a 13 year old boy with hormones going wild. But he feels as if he should have controlled it & I think this was evidence to him (becoming aroused) that he was the monster his father & sister say he is. He is rather self-loathing all through the books, but especially the darker he gets. 

All of this information leads me to believe he is not responsible for what happened to Tysha. What blame does he hold for his own actions towards Tysha? He certainly raped her. I think being 13, just being told his wife is actually a whore, being made to witness this horrific event, coupled with the fact that Tywin is not a man to disobey lightly brings me to the conclusion that he isn't really responsible here. This isn't really his fault. Certainly, more information could either further that point or change it, but as it stands that's how I feel on the matter. 

What are your thoughts? 

 

[Megorova]

34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He certainly raped her. I think being 13, just being told his wife is actually a whore, being made to witness this horrific event, coupled with the fact that Tywin is not a man to disobey lightly brings me to the conclusion that he isn't really responsible here. This isn't really his fault. Certainly, more information could either further that point or change it, but as it stands that's how I feel on the matter. 

What are your thoughts? 

What would have Tywin did to Tyrion, if Tyrion refused to rape Tysha? Refusing was an option. Even just walking away also was an option. If Tyrion was too afraid to oppose his father, too shocked by Tysha's supposed deception and betrayal, and he was unable in that moment to think about saving her or stopping what was happening, he could have at least not raped her. So it was his fault. Not as mush as Tywin's, but more than the fault of those guards. Because those guards were sworn to Tywin, and were obligated to do what he ordered them to. While Tyrion wasn't obligated to obey to Tywin's orders. He wasn't just some commoner, he was an heir of Casterly Rock, so if he ordered those guards not to touch Tysha, it's likely that they would have obeyed. At the time when Tyrion was 13, it was in 286, Jaime was already a Kingsguard, so Tyrion was Lord-in-waiting of Casterly Rock. He could have at least tried to do or say something, but he didn't. He didn't even walked away, nor stayed passive, he participated in raping Tysha. So he was guilty.

Also we should consider circumstances that predated those events. Tysha was crofter's daughter, Tyrion saved her, took her virginity, secretly married with her, and hid her from his family. He shouldn't have done that (except saving her). If he really loved her, he should have married her openly, or at least afterwards revealed to other people that he got married. He should have done the same thing that Duncan the Small did for his Jenny. Though Tyrion wanted to keep both things - to be married with Tysha and to remain an heir of Casterly Rock. He was afraid to loose that, and that was the only reason why he kept his marriage in secret. He wanted to remain to be a Lannister, with a castle, and money, and title, but if he spited his father by marrying with a commoner, then Tywin could have disinherited him.

If Tyrion cared for Tysha more than he cared for his own wellbeing, then there would have been no reason for him to be afraid of Tywin, or what Tywin will do or say or think. After he married with Tysha, he could have left his family, and went with her to create a new life for both of them. Or he could have brought her to his family and told them that this is his wife, and she will be living with him in Casterly Rock, and they all have to get over it, because it is done and done. Or, if he wanted for his secret marriage to stay secret, he could have hired someone to either kill that septon that married them, or threatened him into staying quiet, or gave more money to him, or forced him to go away from Westerlands. Or, instead of getting married with her, after he had sex with her, he could have given a lot of money to Tysha, and sent her away, for her to start a new life elsewhere. If he wasn't brave enough to oppose his father to be openly married with Tysha, or brave enough to start with his wife a new life elsewhere, while leaving behind safety of his luxurious and privileged life as a Lannister, then he should have been brave enough to at least let Tysha go, and didn't turned her into a target, by keeping her as his secret pet.

What happened to Tysha was Tyrion's fault nearly as mush as Tywin's. If he made her to be his lady-wife, instead of his pet-wife, then none of that would have happened. Tywin wouldn't have done that sort of things to a woman, who was known by other people as a daughter-in-law of Casterly Rock's Lord. I bet that when he ordered those guards to rape her, he didn't told them that she was Tyrion's wife, and Tyrion himself also didn't told them what have they actually done. When it happened, afterwards Tyrion was ashamed to acknowledge to those rapists that Tysha was his wife. That's what Tywin counted on, that after what was done, Tyrion will not only separate with Tysha, he will also keep in secret that he ever was married.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Alright. I don't think anyone questions that Tysha was raped & that's not the topic of the thread. What I'm interested in is how much, if any, is Tyrion to blame here? 

IMO Tyrion isn’t to blame. And I don’t even like him. But he was a child, and Tywin is the nastiest PoS in the story. Again, IMO. I would have liked if he had reacted differently, I would have liked if he had put up a fight, however futile an effort that would have been. But, again, he is a child of 13. 

I also think the three quotes at the end are just showing to the reader how guilty he feels about the whole thing, that’s why he thinks he should have “defied” Tywin. 

The adults who participated are guilty. Grown men, raping a child. Guilty as sin, and no mistake. And yes, I know they were “Tywin’s men”, and I also know “that’s how their world works”, and I don’t give two fucks. That’s how [much needed] change happens, when someone says, “enough”. Perhaps a guardsman who had a daughter who was close to Tysha in age.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

What would have Tywin did to Tyrion, if Tyrion refused to rape Tysha? Refusing was an option. Even just walking away also was an option

Well we don't know for certain what he would have done do we? One thing we do know for certain is that Tyrion absolutely, positively, could NOT have refused or merely walked away with no consequence. To suggest such is preposterous. There is not one, single chance Tyrion gets to disobey his father & suffers no repercussions. We just don't know what those repercussions may have been. 

Tyrion might not know for certain what those repercussions would have been. Tywin might have told him, or he might not have. We just don't know. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

If Tyrion was too afraid to oppose his father, too shocked by Tysha's supposed deception and betrayal, and he was unable in that moment to think about saving her or stopping what was happening, he could have at least not raped her. So it was his fault

What proof do you have of that? What evidence do you have to say Tyrion could have not raped her? 

He may have been physically forced, he may have been threatened with any number of things. Or he may have just knew if he didn't he would suffer a terrible consequence. I don't believe that 13 year old Tyrion, who literally minutes before this was completely & utterly in love with this woman, just went along willingly knowing he didn't have to or could stop at any time. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Not as mush as Tywin's, but more than the fault of those guards. Because those guards were sworn to Tywin, and were obligated to do what he ordered them to. While Tyrion wasn't obligated to obey to Tywin's orders

Certainly he was obligated to obey his father's orders? All children in universe are obligated to obey their father's orders. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

He wasn't just some commoner, he was an heir of Casterly Rock, so if he ordered those guards not to touch Tysha, it's likely that they would have obeyed

Lol! Not a chance! Just so I have this straight - The guardsmen, who are OBLIGATED to obey Tywin's command, would have disregarded that command simply because Tyrion told them to? Also, you believe Tyrion isn't obligated to follow Tywin's command but the guardsmen are obligated to obey Tyrion? Against the command of the person they are actually obligated to obey? Nonsense. 

Secondly, Tyrion has never been heir to CR. Tywin has made that clear repeatedly. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

At the time when Tyrion was 13, it was in 286, Jaime was already a Kingsguard, so Tyrion was Lord-in-waiting of Casterly Rock. He could have at least tried to do or say something, but he didn't. He didn't even walked away, nor stayed passive, he participated in raping Tysha. So he was guilty

Being Lord-in-waiting to the Rock does not give Tyrion's word one smidgen of power over Tywin's. Tywin is Lord of CR & Hand of the King. Let alone the fact that, again, Tyrion was never going to inherit or be Lord of the Rock. 

I agree he could have said something, tried to protest, tried to stop it. We don't really know he didn't though. We didn't get the exchange verbatim from Tyrion. He really only gives us what happened, not the words that may have been exchanged. He doesn't really even verbally express his feelings on the matter. We know from his internal thoughts that he is traumatized by the whole thing but we don't know what protests he may or may not have put forth. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Tyrion cared for Tysha more than he cared for his own wellbeing, then there would have been no reason for him to be afraid of Tywin, or what Tywin will do or say or think.

Why would caring for Tysha mean he wouldn't be afraid of Tywin? Caring for Tysha would make him more afraid of Tywin because caring for her means Tywin can use her against Tyrion, just like he did. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

After he married with Tysha, he could have left his family, and went with her to create a new life for both of them.

With what money? Where could he go? He was a 13 year old child. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Or he could have brought her to his family and told them that this is his wife, and she will be living with him in Casterly Rock, and they all have to get over it, because it is done and done.

Right. All that would have done is bring forth the same change of events. Look what his father did when he found out. You talk as if he could just do this & that's that & Tywin can do nothing about. Tywin can do something about it, he did. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

He should have done the same thing that Duncan the Small did for his Jenny. Though Tyrion wanted to keep both things - to be married with Tysha and to remain an heir of Casterly Rock. He was afraid to loose that, and that was the only reason why he kept his marriage in secret. He wanted to remain to be a Lannister, with a castle, and money, and title, but if he spited his father by marrying with a commoner, then Tywin could have disinherited him.

Is it stated somewhere Tyrion got disinherited because of marrying Tysha? If so, I missed it. Tywin makes it pretty clear that Tyrion doesn't get the Rock because he is a dwarf & Tywin will not stand the embarrassment being done to his family & name. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Or, if he wanted for his secret marriage to stay secret, he could have hired someone to either kill that septon that married them, or threatened him into staying quiet, or gave more money to him, or forced him to go away from Westerlands. Or, instead of getting married with her, after he had sex with her, he could have given a lot of money to Tysha, and sent her away, for her to start a new life elsewhere. If he wasn't brave enough to oppose his father to be openly married with Tysha, or brave enough to start with his wife a new life elsewhere, while leaving behind safety of his luxurious and privileged life as a Lannister, then he should have been brave enough to at least let Tysha go, and didn't turned her into a target, by keeping her as his secret pet.

No. Tyrion should be allowed to be married to the woman he loves with out fear of his psychotic, hypocritical father ordering the poor girl to be raped & removed. 

That he was not is Tywin's fault, not Tyrion's & Tywin should have done things differently, not Tyrion. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

What happened to Tysha was Tyrion's fault nearly as mush as Tywin's. If he made her to be his lady-wife, instead of his pet-wife, then none of that would have happened

What are you talking about?? He did make her his wife! Tywin had the marriage removed & the woman raped! 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Tywin wouldn't have done that sort of things to a woman, who was known by other people as a daughter-in-law of Casterly Rock's Lord

Right, like he wouldn't do something bad to the woman known as his father's woman right?

He would do it, he did do it. He lied about who & what she was so he didn't look so bad - something he would have said to anyone that knew of the marriage. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

bet that when he ordered those guards to rape her, he didn't told them that she was Tyrion's wife, and Tyrion himself also didn't told them what have they actually done. When it happened, afterwards Tyrion was ashamed to acknowledge to those rapists that Tysha was his wife. That's what Tywin counted on, that after what was done, Tyrion will not only separate with Tysha, he will also keep in secret that he ever was married.

Um.. except Tyrion does tell people. I don't think it matters what the guards were told, they did as they were commanded & would have done so whether or not they thought she was some whore off the street or some whore Tyrion unknowingly married. 

 

[Megorova]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Certainly he was obligated to obey his father's orders? All children in universe are obligated to obey their father's orders. 

Yep, that's why Jaime became a Kingsguard. To obey his father.

That's why Duncan married with Jenny, Jaehaerys married with Shaera, Daeron chose to be with his male-lover, another Daeron escaped from tournament at Ashford, Arya secretly practiced sword, Joffrey did whatever he wanted, etc.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What are you talking about?? He did make her his wife! Tywin had the marriage removed & the woman raped! 

Not officially. If it was common knowledge that Tyrion got married, and who his wife is, then Tywin would have never done what he did. He wouldn't have been able.

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Um.. except Tyrion does tell people.

Many years later, when the guild for what he did turned him into alcoholic and debaucher.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

or some whore Tyrion unknowingly married

She wasn't a whore, Tywin and Jaime lied about that.

16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think it matters what the guards were told, they did as they were commanded & would have done so whether or not

That's debatable. Because it's one thing to have sex with a whore, and a totally different thing to rape a noble's wife, even if that noble is merely 13 years old. Afterwards Tyrion could have asked for King's Justice, and in case if Tysha was not a whore, all those guards had high chances to be hanged or sent to The Wall for what they did, whether they did it on their own accord or were ordered by their Lord. Because there are laws in 7K, and even Lords can't do whatever they want and stay unpunished.

20 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

One thing we do know for certain is that Tyrion absolutely, positively, could NOT have refused or merely walked away with no consequence. To suggest such is preposterous.

I'm not suggesting that there wouldn't have been any consequences. I'm saying that whatever those consequences could have been, Tyrion decided to go with the flow, instead of facing those consequences.

He was afraid for what will happen to him. He was more worried about himself, and what Tywin can do to him, than about what was happening to Tysha. Tyrion was a coward and utter egotist. And he knows it. What he became in recent years, it's his own punishment for what he did (participated in Tysha's rape, let his father to cast his wife aside) and what he didn't (protected Tysha, acknowledged her as his wife, did anything to Tywin in repercussions for his actions).

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yep, that's why Jaime became a Kingsguard. To obey his father.

That's why Duncan married with Jenny, Jaehaerys married with Shaera, Daeron chose to be with his male-lover, another Daeron escaped from tournament at Ashford, Arya secretly practiced sword, Joffrey did whatever he wanted, etc

You are comparing apples and spaceships here.

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Not officially. If it was common knowledge that Tyrion got married, and who his wife is, then Tywin would have never done what he did. He wouldn't have been able.

What makes you think so? 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yep, that's why Jaime became a Kingsguard. To obey his father

Jaime was a man-grown when he joined the KG, he was no longer under any obligation to obey his father. 

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's why Duncan married with Jenny, Jaehaerys married with Shaera, Daeron chose to be with his male-lover, another Daeron escaped from tournament at Ashford, Arya secretly practiced sword, Joffrey did whatever he wanted,

Giving examples of times children disobeyed their parents doesn't prove they aren't expected to obey their parents? People break the law & go to jail all the time, doesn't mean people aren't obligated & expected to obey the law.

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Not officially. If it was common knowledge that Tyrion got married, and who his wife is, then Tywin would have never done what he did. He wouldn't have been able

What & who would have stopped him?

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Many years later, when the guild for what he did turned him into alcoholic and debaucher

Nope, he tells Sansa, Shae, & Bronn long before he is an alcoholic & we have no idea who else he may have told along the way. 

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She wasn't a whore, Tywin and Jaime lied about that.

... I know that. I'm saying the story Tywin gave to the guardsmen didn't matter. He may have said she was some random whore or he may have told them she is a whore Tyrion mistakenly married. 

23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's debatable. Because it's one thing to have sex with a whore, and a totally different thing to rape a noble's wife, even if that noble is merely 13 years old. Afterwards Tyrion could have asked for King's Justice, and in case if Tysha was not a whore, all those guards had high chances to be hanged or sent to The Wall for what they did, whether they did it on their own accord or were ordered by their Lord. Because there are laws in 7K, and even Lords can't do whatever they want and stay unpunished

You are missing my point. Tyrion could have told every single person in Westeros that he was officially married to Tysha. It wouldn't matter. Tywin is still going to tell them that she isn't really a crofters daughter, but a whore Jaime paid to sleep with Tyrion. 

Lol no. Tyrion could go to the King & say what? Tywin is one of the most powerful men in Westeros. The King is not going to risk angering him over a mishandled family matter whether the girl is a whore or just a crofters daughter. 

I think you are grossly misunderstanding how things work in universe. No one, including the King is going to punish Tywin for mistreating a low born no body even if she isn't a whore. Besides that how would she prove she wasn't? Tywin says she is, Jaime says she is. Who is going to listen to her or Tyrion over Tywin & Jaime? 

28 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I'm not suggesting that there wouldn't have been any consequences. I'm saying that whatever those consequences could have been, Tyrion decided to go with the flow, instead of facing those consequences.

He decided to do as he was commanded rather than face the consequences, yes. We don't have any evidence to say he did or didn't 'go with the flow' 

29 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He was afraid for what will happen to him

Of course he was, who wouldn't be? 

30 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He was more worried about himself, and what Tywin can do to him, than about what was happening to Tysha. Tyrion was a coward and utter egotist. And he knows it. What he became in recent years, it's his own punishment for what he did (participated in Tysha's rape, let his father to cast his wife aside) and what he didn't (protected Tysha, acknowledged her as his wife, did anything to Tywin in repercussions for his actions).

Nonsense. You're telling me that at 13 years old you would have the strength & courage to face dire consequences to help someone who you believe has betrayed you & broke your heart, when you know no matter what you do it won't work? 

I call 

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Nonsense. You're telling me that at 13 years old you would have the strength & courage to face dire consequences to help someone who you believe has betrayed you & broke your heart, when you know no matter what you do it won't work? 

 I call 

And in doing so, you know you’re defying a ruthless nasty person who you know doesn’t care for you all that much and has the power to do whatever they want w/ you. 

Yeah, I call it double  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

And in doing so, you know you’re defying a ruthless nasty person who you know doesn’t care for you all that much and has the power to do whatever they want w/ you. 

Yeah, I call it double  

Indeed. We have some awfully brave & perfect people here sometimes. 

 

[SFDanny]

I already said most of what I think on this topic in the thread about Elia. But the one thing I want to underline is that the idea that the thirteen year old could have just said "no" to participation in what he later comes to know was a rape is totally a complete misread of what Tywin had orchestrated. One of the central points of the rape is to force Tyrion to accept the lie Tywin had constructed. Lord Lannister can not accept a "no." He has to have acknowledgement from Tyrion that he accepts his marriage as a fraud. When Tywin gives Tyrion the gold piece and tells him he is to go last, it shows Tyrion believes the lie Jamie has been forced to tell him. He believes his marriage was faked and his wife was and is a prostitute who lied to him for money. The entire plan, from start to finish is to force Tyrion into accepting Tywin's alternate reality. There is no way that Tyrion would be allowed to do anything differently, even if he had found the courage to deny the false story he has been forced to believe and a lifetime of psychological abuse to actually say no.

[Angel Eyes]

So what would have happened if Tyrion defied his father by refusing to rape Tysha?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what would have happened if Tyrion defied his father by refusing to rape Tysha?

We don't know specifically but I would imagine he would be forced. As SFDanny said the whole thing hinged on Tyrion participating. He wouldn't have been allowed to refuse. 

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what would have happened if Tyrion defied his father by refusing to rape Tysha?

 

Quote

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore." And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled. "If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have," his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I'd fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

 

 Something between the above and including the above and the execution he had planned for Tyrion right before Tyrion killed him. With Tywin all is possible as long as it is as cruel as he can get away with.

[SFDanny]

Let me add one more thing I think is important in understanding Tywin's actions. There is another very important reason Tywin orders the gang rape of Tysha other than convincing Tyrion that Tysha is a whore. The rape by a barracks full of guardsmen cast doubt on the parentage of any child conceived during Tysha and Tyrion's marriage. Who can say who really is the father of such a child? Tywin prevents any claim to being a child of a Lannister if Tysha comes back with a child. Which could be important in the story if the Lanna in Braavos is Tyrion's child.

[TedBear]

He is to blame for what he did, when he raped her, now everything else is Tywin's fault.

[frenin]

Just to be clear.

 Duncan, Jaeharys and co could get away with what they did because Egg was their father, Egg as their father and King could've absolutely get his way and force all his kids to do his bidding, he understood that the happiness of their kids came before and gave in... And ofc giving his own daughter as hostage and allowing Jaeharys to ruin his children lives... What a family.

Anyway, Tyrion was in no position to do what Duncan did, not only because Tyrion was still a kid but because Tywin unlike Egg would not give a single shit and would force his son. Not only Tywin, fathers as Jaeharys 1, Viserys 2 would've absolutely forced his kids to do their biddings.

Duncan and his siblings could get away with what they did because  their parents were flexible enough to accept it, if their father were Randyll Tarly...  what do you think would've happened?? Nothing good for them, that's for sure

[shameeka]

I don't know whether I blame Tyrion or not. But I think from Tysha's perspective, she would blame Tyrion and her blame would be justified. To her, it doesn't matter whether Tyrion was forced or not, he still raped her.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

48 minutes ago, TedBear said:

He is to blame for what he did, when he raped her, now everything else is Tywin's fault.

I respect your opinion but could you elaborate a little? Do you think Tyrion could have refused Tywin? Or do you think it's his fault regardless of if he could have refused or not? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

Just to be clear.

 Duncan, Jaeharys and co could get away with what they did because Egg was their father, Egg as their father and King could've absolutely get his way and force all his kids to do his bidding, he understood that the happiness of their kids came before and gave in... And ofc giving his own daughter as hostage and allowing Jaeharys to ruin his children lives... What a family.

Anyway, Tyrion was in no position to do what Duncan did, not only because Tyrion was still a kid but because Tywin unlike Egg would not give a single shit and would force his son. Not only Tywin, fathers as Jaeharys 1, Viserys 2 would've absolutely forced his kids to do their biddings.

Duncan and his siblings could get away with what they did because  their parents were flexible enough to accept it, if their father were Randyll Tarly...  what do you think would've happened?? Nothing good for them, that's for sure

Agreed. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, shameeka said:

I don't know whether I blame Tyrion or not. But I think from Tysha's perspective, she would blame Tyrion and her blame would be justified. To her, it doesn't matter whether Tyrion was forced or not, he still raped her.

Yeah, I mean I think Tysha has every right & reason to blame every single person there - Tywin, Tyrion, & the guardsmen.