Tysha - who is to blame?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

All leaders in Westeros have subordinates who have raped and pillaged in their lords name. Do you not think Tyrion's goons in Kings Landing commited their own rapes and pillages while 'enforcing the law'?

Sure, they probably did. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol sure? He has someone turned into stew. Bronn, the person he puts in charge of the defences, has criminals/undesirables murdered who may cause a problem if the city is under siege

Yep. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He threatens the lives of innocents, his nephew Tommen, the children of Janos Slynt to get his way

Yep, guilty again. I don't know what the point is in listing Tyrion's vile deeds if listing Tywin's is "beating a dead horse" 

They have both done bad things. Tywin is worse, IMO, because he has done more things, on a larger scale. Yes, he was given the opportunity to do things on a larger scale through ruling, but seeing as how when Tyrion gets the opportunity to rule he does not do the same I'm not sure it's relevant. Unless your argument is that given more time to rule Tyrion would have bypasses Tywin's deeds? To which I would disagree but he didn't get more time so neither of us can say for sure. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Having Discreet sex with a whore in the Middle Ages does not make someone a playboy

We have some indication this isn't a one time incident but maybe we disagree on the definition of a playboy? I understood you were calling Tyrion such due to his interactions with whores, if I'm mistaken please let me know. The discretion taken when interacting with whores doesn't really play into whether or not someone is a playboy, as to my understanding of the word. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do you misunderstand why Tywin is upset with his father and son and how they elevate paramours/whores over the safety of their family

I don't think I'm misunderstanding but how has Tyrion elevated whores over the safety of his family? 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Question? If you drink alcohol can you no longer warn alcoholics of the danger of their actions without being a hypocrite?

Given certain pretexts you could. But I don't think that fits here. 

Hypocrisy: The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which ones own behavior does not conform. 

Had Tywin found Shae in Tyrion's bed Tywin would not think it was ok. Yet he has Shae in his bed. That is hypocritical. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure, but it is not selfless motivation. The city falls and Tyrion falls with it, or shortly after it as he is hated as much as his father is.

Right, but he still does it, regardless of his motivation. People hail Tywin as a hero for coming to the battle, his motivation was not selfless either, yet he still saved them. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He has the self interests of the Crown in hand while giving orders

The crown? As in, his nephew who he has no loyalty to? That's a little contradictory to what you said earlier, no? 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

That seems to be a point borne out of life experience. Very hard to see himself as a superior being, like much of the nobility do, when you are born into a dwarf's body.

Ok but if it counts to the negative that he behaves as a Highborn does, due to life experiences & teachings, should it not then count to the positive that he sees people as more human than his father even though it may have been born from life experiences? 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Reread what you actually said. You said he does not understand human emotion. That does not seem to be true.

Yeah, I said that too & stand by it at least irt to Tyrion. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does he treat Tyrion poorly in their interactions in the first book?

Sometimes the books blur together so to answer fairly I would either need to reread the first book or have a specific interaction pointed out. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does he treat Tyrion poorly when he constantly visited his son on his death bed?

That's quite the hyperbole. 

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I visited your sickbed as often as Maester Ballabarwould allow it, when you seemed like to die.” He steepled his fingers under his chin.

Visiting as often as the Maester would allow it when he seemed like to die is hardly constantly. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does he treat Tyrion poorly when he offers him the marriage to Sansa?

Does he treat Tyrion poorly in their Small Council meetings?

Nope & not really. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does he treat Tyrion poorly when he offers him a trial rather than execute him on the spot for the murder of his grandson, the King?

Does he treat Tyrion poorly when he has Kevan offer him a deal to join the Watch?

For the vast majority of their interactions in the series we don't see what you are describing. So to label it consistent is utter tripe.

We do see Tywin treat Tyrion poorly in one conversation when Tywin finds out that Tyrion threatened the lives of his grandsons. Is that not cause to be upset?

I don't think these things are treating him kindly either. 

Consistent was not a good word, fair enough. 

What do showing times where he has not been treated poorly prove though? I'm sure you are well aware of the times he has been treated poorly & it is hardly only the one instance you listed. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No. Tyrion thought she loved him, then he also thought she was a whore. He also can't remeber how many men raped her, half a dozen, a score or a hundred.

It is abundantly clear that Tyrion did not know Tysha at all and does not have a clear memory of what happened.

Common sense. She could hardly say no.

This happens in our own world, powerful men being ignorant of the pressure they put on women to obey. To think this does not exist a thousand times more in the medieval world when the son of the ruler of the lands takes a fancy to a peasant.

What is more likely. She went with a 13 year old dwarf because

• She was in love with this person she has just met
• She did not realize that she could say no, or was fearful of the consequences of saying no (Tyrion's reputation was monstrous)
• She, being homeless and an oprhan, had few other options in the medieval world

Since Tysha is not a POV character and we don't get to see the scene, only the idealized memory of their time together from Tyrion, them I'm hugely sceptical about his recollection of events.

 

Then you are wrong. He had that reputaion from birth, Oberyn, from Dorne, points this out.

The smallfolk of Kings Landing are hugely judgemental of him, beleiving the worst. The smallfolk of the Westerlands are going to be no different.

Undeserved, but Tyrion's reputation was bad.

Please! Just one of the many 13 year old dwarfs with their own servants, guards, unlimited amount of money to hire septons and lodgings for the two of them as well as brother's who are in the Kingsguard.

I don't know if you are purposefully being disingenuous in this conversation, but she will have clearly known who both Jaime and Tyrion were.

Do tell?

Thinking she was a whore says nothing to his memory, that is what he was told. 

It isn't abundantly clear that Tyrion doesn't know what happened in their relationship. He may not remember details of a traumatic event (which is not uncommon) but there isn't anything to suggest the rest of what he remembers about their relationship is faulty, & as I said, faulty or no it's all we have. 

Everything we are given says she didn't want to say no, regardless if she could or not. 

Pick any single interaction remembered by Tyrion with Tysha (other than the gang rape) & there is indication that she loved him. It may be misunderstood by Tyrion but the evidence we have says she was in love with him, there is no evidence to indicate otherwise. 

[corbon]

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 

@corbon & also @Lyanna<3Rhaegar I guess you guys were right,

Thanks. I guess I'm cynical to some extent even of septon meribald. 

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I misjudged the world. So with that in mind I guess it's fine to examine the responsibility Tyrion and even Tysha might have had for their own actions,

It should be fine to examine that responsibility regardless.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

while keeping in mind that Tywin-the car lol- still is 100% to blame for what he did. I think BM makes some valid points about the power dynamic between Tyrion and Tysha and how that could have had an effect on their relationship, well illustrated by the GRRM quote he has given.

Indeed and indeed. And I think I always indicated taking into account such things.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That being said very subjectively I think GRRM wanted Tyrion to have this one true love, that then was destroyed - but it is just a subjective opinion, that I can't back up through anything and I might very well be wrong.

You might be right too. This is not something I'd reject, though I think that if it were true we'd have more powerful evidence for it.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO if GRRM wanted this to be "real love" he for sure made some logical mistakes or mistakes, that make the reader question, if this could have been real, as pointed out by BM.

F.e. why make this all last only 2 weeks? Why not maybe hide Tyrion's identity-at least in the beginning? (but maybe this would have been perceived as betraying her again) 

The problem is that all in all we have next to no objective information about what really happened IMO and I think it again says a lot about GRRM as a writer, that he lets his favorite character be perceived as either a rapist at 13 or solely a sexual abuse victim and doesn't bother to clarify what truly happened and how this event should be interpreted by the readers.

Haha, nice point.
Show, don't tell. The reader gets to interpret the story through their own lens - which is why we all have different beliefs about the same set of words.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I understand, that you guys wanna examine Tysha's and Tyrion's potential responsibility for their actions and motivation behind it, I guess it's not really my thing for reasons I've already explained and because I also just think we don't have enough information to properly do that. It's just a guessing game.

To be honest, its not really that interesting, because, as you say, we just don't have enough information to do it properly.

I objected originally to an attempt (not necessarily even deliberate) to shut down someone else's thoughts in a way that I believe is ultimately (if not deliberately) dishonest and immoral. I felt comfortable calling it out because I respect and trust the people making that error that we would be able to talk through any ensuing discussion - parsing the finer points of moral reasoning in tricky subjects seems to be interesting to me (I don't really know why, or at least haven't thought about it) - and that they wouldn't hold to any feeling of 'insult' they got from me calling it out.

I sort of sidestepped the discussion for a while because you were unintentionally metaphorically begging me to escalate and I didn't think that was a good idea for either of us.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It does however surprise me, that you guys think he had responsibility for his actions in this scenario- being a child and all, longing for love- but don't think he had responsibility for his actions on the wedding night, where he was 26, had a life time of experiences (also about his father etc) and had a complete understanding the situation, was privy to all of the political background, was self-aware and aware of "Sansa's nature" and situation.

Oh we both think he had responsibility for his actions, we just disagree with you on the context of those actions and what they meant.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Don't get me wrong I think it was a triumph for his character, that he did stop and didn't fully follow, what his father taught him early on, but I also think he did something wrong and has full responsibility for it.

I understand. I just don't agree on whether what he did was wrong. But here is not the right place to discuss that. Nor am I sure there is much benefit to be had in doing so as I don't think either sides have changed outlooks.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Maybe it was with the labeling again, because I called it sexual assault? I guess I just call things as they are defined and are not that sensitive about it. Of course like you guys, I would be extremely carful using that term irl. And definitely would not just throw that around.

Thats a part of it, but only a part.

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And IMO Tyrion was also more aware, that Sansa didn't want this, then you guys were. So I guess, that's were our differentiating opinions  might come from. Anyway didn't want to completely start this subject again, but just think it's thematically fitting, since it is actually a similar scenario, involving to of the same characters Tywin and Tyrion- just older and a different girl.

Indeed. I don;t think its that we don't agree that Tyrion knew she didn't want it - we agree on that. But there is more to it than that. But again, thats for a different place, and we've said what can be said already.

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, I guess, that is where our opinions are different.

Take the example of Tyrion. We don't know exactly what happened. But just presume, that Tyrion was traumatized, horrified, in absolute terror of what he had just witnessed in front of him. Then his father tells him "Now you Tyrion". Tyrion does absolutely not want to do this, he is in absolute terror, but his body is "betraying" him and because of all of the psychological power his father holds over him, his age and a lifetime of abuse he ends up doing it against his will.

I pretty much do.

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If this is what happened ( for what we don't have sufficient evidence, but is what I believed happened) then Tyrion holds 0% responsibly for his own actions, because he was in a traumatic situation, trying to survive and indeed he was raped himself.

The physical actions at that time, indeed, 0% responsibility, or as near to it as makes no difference,
The action I think he's 'responsible' for, holds some element of 'blame' for, is choosing to 'set up house' with Tysha when he knew it would end badly (thats why he tried to hide it), knew his father was famously ruthless and brutal, and knew Tysha was utterly unprotected.

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The same way I see Sansa's situation she was in a traumatizing situation (preceded by a year of psychological and physical abuse, trauma and imprisonment) she doesn't want to do this, but because of the psychological power the Lannisters hold over her and a year of trauma and abuse she does against her will, therefore she holds 0 responsibility for her actions, her body is just trying to survive.

Agreed, mostly.

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion holds now psychological power over Sansa the same way, that Tywin did over Tyrion and the outside information about the situation should have been enough for Tyrion to not let her undress for him.

You almost dragged me in there.  Look, if I answer this part we're really going back there!

[Nagini's Neville]

52 minutes ago, corbon said:

You almost dragged me in there.  Look, if I answer this part we're really going back there!

yeah, I personally just think you and @Lyanna<3Rhaegar are applying two different types of logic for those two situations and for me it is illogical. I'll just point this one last thing out. Then I'll stop (well depending on your answer, I guess lol) 

You both think Tyrion knew Sansa didn't want it, right?

52 minutes ago, corbon said:

I don;t think its that we don't agree that Tyrion knew she didn't want it - we agree on that.

Tywin probably also knew Tyrion generally speaking didn't want to do it.

Let's first clarify molestation is not as bad as rape of course.

But just because Tyrion obeys his father does that now signal back to Tywin, that he wants to do it? That he is actually okay with this? Does that now mean Tywin has not raped his son, because he didn't say something against his father and just did it? Does this now mean Tyrion has suddenly changed his mind and wants to rape her? IMO no, because Tywin generally speaking knows, that Tyrion doesn't want to rape his wife. The same way, that Tyrion generally speaking knows, that Sansa doesn't want to be married to him and doesn't want to sleep with him.

[Bernie Mac]

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yep, guilty again. I don't know what the point is in listing Tyrion's vile deeds if listing Tywin's is "beating a dead horse" 

Then please reread what you wrote.

I was making a point, Tywin had been ruling for 40 years, Tyrion had ruled a city for less than a year.

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They have both done bad things. Tywin is worse, IMO, because he has done more things, on a larger scale.

So for you a leader will always be a worse person?

Because, by convention, a leader of a realm will have more blood on his hands than a baker.

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Yes, he was given the opportunity to do things on a larger scale through ruling, but seeing as how when Tyrion gets the opportunity to rule he does not do the same

But he does. I gave you examples of him abusing his power and you said I was beating a dead horse.

Tyrion, in his short time of only ruling a city, did questionable things with his power. Such things that he may have thought were in the Cities best interests, but questionable nonetheless. On a larger scale, of both territory and time, he'd have done worse. Or do you genuinely think that with more power and responsibility Tyrion would have bucked the trend of most leaders throughout history and done less abuse?

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I'm not sure it's relevant. Unless your argument is that given more time to rule Tyrion would have bypasses Tywin's deeds?

More than possible. Depends on the circumstance.

Tyrion is someone who was plotting war with his nephew and niece all to get back at his sister. Tyrion seems to hate the smallfolk far more than his father ever did and, being a dwarf, would likely face more struggle to keep power than his father ever did.

At the end of ADWD he has just given signed a contract for the Second Sons to regain Casterly Rock for him. Do you think this is going to be done peacefully? Or by war with casualties to innocent people? Half way through ADWD he convinces Aegon to attack Westeros while it was still vulnerable. Do you think the Aegon and the Golden Company are not devastating innocent people in the Stormlands?

Even without the responsibility of rule Tyrion still has a lot of blood on his hands. And when it comes to spite, whether it was Shae or the, potentially tens of thousands of people he has caused to be killed just to get back at his sister or take Casterly Rock, he is quickly catching up to his father's count.

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To which I would disagree but he didn't get more time so neither of us can say for sure. 

We can see what he has done in his short time in rule.

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We have some indication this isn't a one time incident but maybe we disagree on the definition of a playboy? I understood you were calling Tyrion such due to his interactions with whores,

Nope. I was calling him a playboy due to most playboys travel, publicly make spectacles of themselves through vices, such as alcohol women, and get themselves into trouble and use their family name/wealth to get them out of it. Playboys live life with little responsibility and only live to enjoy their vices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playboy_lifestyle

It is a pretty accurate portrayal of Tyrion's life before he was given the end of AGOT. It is not an accurate description of Tywin's life,  who went to work for the family as a teenager.

Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years, and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man.

Jaime loves Tyrion like Kevan loves Tywin. Do you think he looks on his brother's contributions in a similar way that Kevan does to Tywin's?

Tyrion is a playboy. Tywin is not.

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if I'm mistaken please let me know. The discretion taken when interacting with whores doesn't really play into whether or not someone is a playboy, as to my understanding of the word. 

eh? Genuinely lost?

My point was about his lifestyle and Tywin's lifestyle. I don't think I could have been any clearer.

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I don't think I'm misunderstanding but how has Tyrion elevated whores over the safety of his family? 

When he threatens to scourge his nephew Tommen over the safety of one then he has elevated them above his family.

 

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Given certain pretexts you could. But I don't think that fits here. 

Why does it not fit here? Because it would mean you'd have to agree with Tywin's stance? Seems an entirely rational way for you to decide things.

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Hypocrisy: The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which ones own behavior does not conform. 

Then do quote which claims Tywin has made about himself.

Look I understand your hatred for the character, but you are also pretty ignorant about him as well and seem to refuse to research your argument. What moral standards has Tywin claimed to have with regard to whores to make him a hypocrite. Please quote and don't rely on what you think happened.

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Had Tywin found Shae in Tyrion's bed Tywin would not think it was ok. Yet he has Shae in his bed. That is hypocritical. 

Did Tywin threaten to hurt the King and the Prince, his grandsons, over the safety of a whore?

Sleeping with whores was never the problem, threatening to hurt his family over them was. Allowing himself to be blackmailed over one was.

Tywin's issue is that Tyrion sleeps with them, it is that he falls in love with them and puts them above his family.

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Right, but he still does it, regardless of his motivation. People hail Tywin as a hero for coming to the battle, his motivation was not selfless either, yet he still saved them. 

eh? Where did I say anything about being a hero? It seems you are, once again, trying to pivot away from the point I was making. Why do you feel the need to constantly do that?

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The crown? As in, his nephew who he has no loyalty to? That's a little contradictory to what you said earlier, no? 

The nephew he hates, slaps and threatens to harm? No, I don't see that as contradictory.

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Ok but if it counts to the negative that he behaves as a Highborn does, due to life experiences & teachings, should it not then count to the positive that he sees people as more human than his father even though it may have been born from life experiences? 

Perception, like intelligence, is neither good or bad. Some people in the world, or in the past are ignorant. I don't really blame them for it. I imagine future generations will look back on some of the things we do and see us as equally ignorant.

Tyrion's perception comes from being a dwarf, it not a positive thing he has earned any more than being short is a negative thing he has earned. They both came to him via circumstance he did not control.

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Yeah, I said that too & stand by it at least irt to Tyrion. 

And it is still wrong. He clearly understands his son in great deal. Not only does he pick the right way to convince him to marry Sansa but he spots that bringing Shae to court will work against him, whcih it does as he allows his feelings for this whore he has just met, to be used to blackmail him and expose him to others.

Does he understand him 100%? No, but few people understand someone 100% and that was never your position. You said he does not understand human emotion. He does. But people underestimate/overestimate other people's emotions all the time. You are holding Tywin to an inhumane standard to prove that he lacks an understanding of human emotion.

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Sometimes the books blur together so to answer fairly I would either need to reread the first book or have a specific interaction pointed out. 

You made the accusation, not me. You can't then act that it is up to me to give you examples of things that I don't think happened. I asked you to back up your own case, the fact that you are telling me that you are unfamiliar with what happened is pretty clear that you making things up.

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That's quite the hyperbole. 

Not in the English language. In English the term means all the time or often. He did visit his son 'often', as much as he was allowed to do when he was on his deathbed.

Possibly a language barrier issue, perhaps you simply have a different idea to what the term means, but most English dictionaries would see no issue with how I used the word.

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Visiting as often as the Maester would allow it when he seemed like to die is hardly constantly. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/constantly

• all the time or often:

 

[Bernie Mac]

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Nope & not really. 

Excellent. We are making progress.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think these things are treating him kindly either. 

Dude, you are moving the goalposts. Your original point was that;   to constantly & consistently treat Tyrion poorly

None of these examples I gave are Tywin treating him poorly, which is was your point and a point not backed up in the series.

I get it, it sucks to have your beliefs about something pulled a part and it seems easier to try to reframe your position rather than accept that you were wrong, but you clearly were wrong on this one. An ample amount of examples have been given to you.

 

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What do showing times where he has not been treated poorly prove though?

It proves against your statement that I disagreed with. What did you think the purpose was?

You made a claim that was pretty easy to disprove.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm sure you are well aware of the times he has been treated poorly & it is hardly only the one instance you listed. 

The rape lesson, something I have repeatedly called reprehensible from Tywin is the only time in the series I can think of when Tywin was generally awful to Tyrion.

The time he said he would never inherit Casterly Rock was entirely justified given the context of what happened.

By all means, list all the times in the series or Tyrion's life when he was treated poorly (in medieval terms, not modern day) by his father.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Thinking she was a whore says nothing to his memory, that is what he was told. 

It speaks to how well he knew her. Are you in a partnership with someone you love? Or have you been? (I do remember you like to put yourself in Tyrion's shoes in these conversations). What would it take for a sibling to convince you that person was not what they claimed to be and that they did not really love you?

When I say Tyrion did not really know her it is based on how little it took him to believe Jaime's word over hers.

So not only is his memory on the situation unreliable but so too were his feelings at the time.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It isn't abundantly clear that Tyrion doesn't know what happened in their relationship. He may not remember details of a traumatic event (which is not uncommon) but there isn't anything to suggest the rest of what he remembers about their relationship is faulty, & as I said, faulty or no it's all we have. 

Yeah, there is. See my previous response.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Everything we are given says she didn't want to say no, regardless if she could or not. 

What is everything? List everything? List the great detail of knowledge we have and who this is from?

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Pick any single interaction remembered by Tyrion with Tysha (other than the gang rape) & there is indication that she loved him.

Go on. Do so. Prove your case.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

It may be misunderstood by Tyrion but the evidence we have says she was in love with him, there is no evidence to indicate otherwise. 

There is plenty. He was a 13-year-old dwarf she had known for a week. She was a homeless orphaned peasant in the medieval world.

 

GRRM has this to say about his world;

: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

 

Can you tell me what message do you think GRRM is trying to tell his readers about his world?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 Then please reread what you wrote.

I was making a point, Tywin had been ruling for 40 years, Tyrion had ruled a city for less than a year

I reread it. I'm still missing your point. 

I'm not talking about deeds that have only been committed while ruling, although the majority of Tywin's would have been committed while ruling. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

So for you a leader will always be a worse person

No. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Because, by convention, a leader of a realm will have more blood on his hands than a baker

Not necessarily. People can rule without committing atrocities. I'm not counting all the wars Tywin may have been a part of during his time ruling, but counting the acts that I deem to be particularly vile & unnecessary even in the scope of ruling. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

But he does. I gave you examples of him abusing his power and you said I was beating a dead horse

?? No. I never said you were beating a dead horse. You said I was beating a dead horse. 

The things Tyrion does while ruling & while not ruling are evil/bad to a lesser extent than the ones Tywin has committed, IMO. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion, in his short time of only ruling a city, did questionable things with his power. Such things that he may have thought were in the Cities best interests, but questionable nonetheless. On a larger scale, of both territory and time, he'd have done worse. Or do you genuinely think that with more power and responsibility Tyrion would have bucked the trend of most leaders throughout history and done less abuse?

I agree he did questionable things, I disagree that given more time & territory he would have done worse than Tywin. Yes, I genuinely believe Tyrion would have done less abuse.

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion is someone who was plotting war with his nephew and niece all to get back at his sister. Tyrion seems to hate the smallfolk far more than his father ever did and, being a dwarf, would likely face more struggle to keep power than his father ever did

Did he plot war? Or did he talk about it once? I only remember him talking about it once. Maybe twice. I don't recall any action taken to plot it though. 

What passage/s lead you to the belief that Tyrion hated the smallfolk more than Tywin? 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

At the end of ADWD he has just given signed a contract for the Second Sons to regain Casterly Rock for him. Do you think this is going to be done peacefully? Or by war with casualties to innocent people? Half way through ADWD he convinces Aegon to attack Westeros while it was still vulnerable. Do you think the Aegon and the Golden Company are not devastating innocent people in the Stormlands?

No, I don't think it will be done peacefully. No, I don't think war is ever not devasting to innocent people. If we are comparing though, Tyrion hasn't accomplished any of that yet so he, as of yet has not devasted those innocent people. Tywin, however, has participated in wars that have decimated innocent people. I'm not even faulting him for that, other than where he goes out of his way to give a specific order to do exactly this. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Even without the responsibility of rule Tyrion still has a lot of blood on his hands. And when it comes to spite, whether it was Shae or the, potentially tens of thousands of people he has caused to be killed just to get back at his sister or take Casterly Rock, he is quickly catching up to his father's count

Yes, Tyrion has blood on his hands but you cannot count the people he hasn't even done anything to yet. Besides, I would think it more likely he wants CR because it's his birthright rather than to spite his sister. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We can see what he has done in his short time in rule

Yes we can, which is less than Tywin. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Nope. I was calling him a playboy due to most playboys travel, publicly make spectacles of themselves through vices, such as alcohol women, and get themselves into trouble and use their family name/wealth to get them out of it. Playboys live life with little responsibility and only live to enjoy their vices.

My mistake. What public spectacle has he made of himself through alcohol or women? What trouble has he gotten into that he used his families money to get him out of? 

Just to clarify, I'm not saying he hasn't but I genuinely can't think of a time he did. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jaime loves Tyrion like Kevan loves Tywin. Do you think he looks on his brother's contributions in a similar way that Kevan does to Tywin's?

We don't get Jaime's thoughts on Tyrion's policies that I recall. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion is a playboy. Tywin is not

Fair enough. 

49 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Genuinely lost?

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

My point was about his lifestyle and Tywin's lifestyle. I don't think I could have been any clearer

Clear is often subjective. I, too, thought my response couldn't have been any clearer, but since it seems it wasn't: I, like I said, thought you were calling Tyrion a playboy irt to his exploits with whores. I went further to clarify that's what I understood you to mean & said if it was not what you meant to please let me know. Which is what you did, not sure what there is to be lost about. 

49 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

When he threatens to scourge his nephew Tommen over the safety of one then he has elevated them above his family

I see. I suppose he has seemingly prioritized a whore over his nephew. I don't believe he would have gone through it, still I understand what you are saying. 

51 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why does it not fit here? Because it would mean you'd have to agree with Tywin's stance? Seems an entirely rational way for you to decide things

Lol, no. I think it doesn't fit here because there are not those given pretexts. 

I understand Tywin not wanting Tyrion to make a mockery of their family with whores, I even agree with it. I don't agree with Tywin's methods in enforcing that rule. 

If Tywin forbid Tyrion to bring his whores to his bed at court & also did not bring his own whores to bed at KL, it would not be hypocritical. Because Tywin forbids Tyrion to do this but then does it himself, he is hypocritical. 

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Then do quote which claims Tywin has made about himself

You want me to quote when Tywin has forbid Tyrion to bring his whore to KL & then quote the passage where Tywin has Shae in his own bed? That's a lot of quoting but I'll find the page #'s if you would like & then you can read them like that. 

57 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Look I understand your hatred for the character, but you are also pretty ignorant about him as well and seem to refuse to research your argument. What moral standards has Tywin claimed to have with regard to whores to make him a hypocrite. Please quote and don't rely on what you think happened

I don't hate the character at all but ok, after I'm done replying I'll give you the quotes. 

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did Tywin threaten to hurt the King and the Prince, his grandsons, over the safety of a whore

Nope, don't think so. 

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sleeping with whores was never the problem, threatening to hurt his family over them was. Allowing himself to be blackmailed over one was

Sleeping with whores in KL was a problem. He was forbid to bring his whore to his bed at KL - or to bring her to KL at all. Are you talking about the singer that tried to blackmail him? 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin's issue is that Tyrion sleeps with them, it is that he falls in love with them and puts them above his family

I suppose it can be argued he fell in love with Shae, but I don't think he did. What whore did he fall in love with? 

I understand what you are saying irt putting a whore above his family but this isn't where Tywin's issue with Tyrion & whores started. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Where did I say anything about being a hero? It seems you are, once again, trying to pivot away from the point I was making. Why do you feel the need to constantly do that?

Where did I say you said he was a hero? Do you think I said what I said to pretend to you or myself that you called Tywin a hero? Or do you think maybe I was making a point that had nothing to do with you calling Tywin a hero but to do with people's actions being their own regardless of their motivation? 

You said Tyrion's motivation was not selfless. I said he still performed the action regardless of his motivation & likened it to Tywin's actions in which his motivations were also not selfless but he was hailed a hero - in universe, not by you. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The nephew he hates, slaps and threatens to harm? No, I don't see that as contradictory.

You said he has no loyalty to his family or something to that effect, earlier. Then you said Tyrion's motivation was loyalty to the crown. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Perception, like intelligence, is neither good or bad. Some people in the world, or in the past are ignorant. I don't really blame them for it. I imagine future generations will look back on some of the things we do and see us as equally ignorant.

Tyrion's perception comes from being a dwarf, it not a positive thing he has earned any more than being short is a negative thing he has earned. They both came to him via circumstance he did not control

Fair enough but you were said it was negative in an earlier post. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

And it is still wrong. He clearly understands his son in great deal. Not only does he pick the right way to convince him to marry Sansa but he spots that bringing Shae to court will work against him, whcih it does as he allows his feelings for this whore he has just met, to be used to blackmail him and expose him to others

Well, that's your opinion but I disagree. I don't think it would have taken a whole lot of convincing to marry Sansa, it was a great opportunity for Tyrion. 

Lol! It is Tywin &/or Cersei who blackmail him. It only works against him because they do it. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does he understand him 100%? No, but few people understand someone 100% and that was never your position. You said he does not understand human emotion. He does. But people underestimate/overestimate other people's emotions all the time. You are holding Tywin to an inhumane standard to prove that he lacks an understanding of human emotion

Not at all. I think a reasonable person would have understood what his lack of love & kindness would do to his children emotionally. I think a reasonable person would understand that people can only be pushed so far & that when a person appears to be at their breaking point & is threatening your life that they probably should not goad them further unless you wish to die. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

You made the accusation, not me. You can't then act that it is up to me to give you examples of things that I don't think happened. I asked you to back up your own case, the fact that you are telling me that you are unfamiliar with what happened is pretty clear that you making things up

Lol! You asked me if I thought Tywin treated Tyrion poorly in aGoT. I can't answer that without knowing which interaction/s you are talking about. You didn't ask me to tell you the times I thought he did treat him poorly. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not in the English language. In English the term means all the time or often. He did visit his son 'often', as much as he was allowed to do when he was on his deathbed

There is a difference between constantly, all the time, & often vs as often as was allowed when he was like to die. Constantly, all the time, & often are multiple times at the least. As often as allowed when he was like to die could potentially mean as little as one or two times. One or two times is not often, constantly, or all the time. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Possibly a language barrier issue, perhaps you simply have a different idea to what the term means, but most English dictionaries would see no issue with how I used the word

Do you dispute that all the time & often are different than 'as often as allowed while you were like to die'? 

[Bernie Mac]

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would disagree slightly here. Someone's actions do speak to their core being regardless of the outcome. I think the choice to decimate the RL is a bad/wrong/evil one. A different person may have used a different, less bloody tactic to achieve the same goal. 

Robb's using the same goal. It was an effective way to win in the medieval age.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He has some knowledge, that used in the proper way, could decimate his house (the twincest, the acting King is a bastard, his father's orders irt Elia) but he hides this.

Of course he does. Jaime is one of the few people he likes and he is a dwarf in the medieval world. His House falls he falls with it.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

I would argue he hides this because of the loyalty to his family, although I'm open to other explanations. 

His playboy lifestyle is funded by his House. He has aspirations on ruling Casterly Rock. He loves being Hand and being in power.

The fact that he is trying to set Tommen against Myrcella and has just hired an army to take back Casterly Rock from the Lannisters shows he has little loyalty towards his House and the many other Lannisters who will die or suffer should he be successful in his plans in ADWD.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think so. I think his thoughts irt Tommen & Myrcella show he doesn't think of them as merely pawns.

He clearly does. He wants them at war against each other just to piss off his Cersei

Tyrion would sooner have gone to Dorne. Myrcella is older than Tommen, by Dornish law the Iron Throne is hers. I will help her claim her rights, as Prince Oberyn suggested.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He gave her as pleasant a smile as a man with half a nose could manage. "I have a niece in Sunspear, did I tell you? I could make rather a lot of mischief in Dorne with Myrcella. I could set my niece and nephew at war, wouldn't that be droll?" The washerwoman pinned up one of Illyrio's tunics, large enough to double as a sail. "I should be ashamed to think such evil thoughts, you're quite right

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"My niece Myrcella is in Dorne, as it happens. And I have half a mind to make her a queen."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Varys had his little birds listening, Oberyn was giving them a ripe earful. "I believe I will have that cup of wine," said Tyrion. Queen Myrcella? It would have been more tempting if only he did have Sansa tucked beneath his cloak. If she declared for Myrcella over Tommen, would the north follow? What the Red Viper was hinting at was treason. Could Tyrion truly take up arms against Tommen, against his own father? Cersei would spit blood. It might be worth it for that alone.

 

In some ways this is far worse than what Tywin did. Tyrion likes his nephew and niece, but he have them at war with each other, the realm at war with itself, just to spite his sister.  There is a special kind of malice for people who do that. Tywin also commits evil atrocities, but there seems genuine purpose rather than spite.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

& As you've said he likes/loves Jaime. Even Cersei & Tywin, who he really has no cause to be loyal or nice to,

He has quite a bit of reason to be loyal to his father. His father could have drowned him as a child.

"At his son's hand, aye." The lord took a drink of beer. "When there were kings on the Sisters, we did not suffer dwarfs to live. We cast them all into the sea, as an offering to the gods. The septons made us stop that. A pack of pious fools. Why would the gods give a man such a shape but to mark him as a monster?"

Could have raised him to be treated like other dwarfs

You mustn't mock him. Don't you know anything? You can't talk that way to a big person. They can hurt you. Ser Jorah could have tossed you in the sea. The sailors would have laughed to see you drown. You have to be careful around big people. Be jolly and playful with them, keep them smiling, make them laugh, that's what my father always said. Didn't your father ever tell you how to act with big people?

Tyrion, one of the best educated people in Westeros, has a lot to be thankful to his father for. His playboy lifestyle, his Handship, his betrothal to the most sought after heiress in the realm. Tyrion is the first, and likely last, Dwarf to be Hand.

Now in other responses you, wrongly, accuse me of hyperbole, but surely the idea that Tyrion has no cause to be loyal to his father is simply wrong, even if you ignore the concept of Houses and family in GRRM's world.

As for Cersei, she is his sister, the Queen (by laws of the land he owes her fealty for that) and she went out of her way to get him released when Cat had abducted him. Because, even though she too does not like Tyrion, he is family and that is what is expected of family/House members in Westeros.

Living like the 00.1% in the cursed period of the medieval age means some things are expected, one is loyalty.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

he doesn't use everything he can against them. Tywin, paid the ultimate price in the end but he doesn't try to orchestrate their downfall. 

Why would he? What do you think happens to Tyrion in the world his father and siblings go down?

Are you under the impression that the smallflolk and Westerlands lords have a higher opinon of him than his family does?

GRRM; He’s lost his position in House Lannister, he’s lost his position in court, he’s lost all of his gold — which is the one thing that’s kind of sustained him throughout his life. Whatever disadvantages he’s had in terms being a dwarf, he didn’t have the sort of physical abilities to be a knight, but he had the great advantage of an ancient and powerful name and all the gold that he could want to buy things — including followers like Bronn and other people to defend him.

Tyrion loses everything without his father.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The same can be said about anyone then. Tywin wasn't truly serving,

He was. That is exactly what can be said. Kevan points that out, Genna points that out.

Do you think Jaime and Cersei view Tyrion's efforts in the same way that Tywin's siblings viewed his?

Do you genuinely see no difference?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

it's in his own best interest to do so. He is no warrior & suggesting he "protect the rear" is a joke.

How is it a joke? Tyrion does not view it as a joke. Please, please try rereading these books rather than be opinionated on parts you are clearly a little ignorant about.

"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork."

Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere."......

 

.... Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but he was never given the chance.

 

Tyrion did not reject the offer because he was not a commander but because he had a personal score to settle. Again, reducing the Vale to a smoking scorchland does not sound great for the smallfolk of the Vale or the 99.99999% of the population who did not wrong him.  This idea that Tyrion is a better person than his father and would do less harm if in charge for 40 years is proven again and again to be false.

 

Tyrion's affable, very witty, but also a murderer, a rapist, a kinslayer who would see tens of thousands of innocents die to get what he wanted.

 

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

He serves in other ways & does so fairly well. He also does oblige his father & lead the clansmen into battle, even though he has no business doing so. 

Why do you think he had no business doing so? It is a command position.

Your feelings on a dwarfs abilities seem to be different to how Tyrion and Tywin see them.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion was never given the opportunity to do the same.

What are you talking about? They chose to serve. Tyrion, like Gerion, chose not to.

The majority of sons serve their House in the series. Tyrion is one of the few exceptions. Even Lame Lothar serves his House, Tyrion is a playboy.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

In fact, he has been kept from his birthright intentionally.

Please expand and quote evidence for this? I'd love to hear how you have came to this conclusion.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

If Tywin truly had his family's best interest at heart he would understand that preparing Tyrion to rule as his heir,

Is Tyrion not highly educated? Did Tywin play no part in that?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

starting the moment he became his heir, would have been beneficial.

What should Tywin have done?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

Instead he disregards Tyrion's birthright

He does only after Tyrion has threatened the lives of his grandsons. Or can you quote it happening before that?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

& lays all his hopes on the fact that Jaime will one day agree to remove himself from the KG - speaking of which, he hasn't given Jaime any teachings on ruling either even expecting him to rule when he is gone. 

Sure he has. Where is your evidence that Tywin did not give his sons any teachings on rule?

What teachings did Tyros give Tywin? Stafford give Robert? Rickard give Ned?

The entire noble education is about ruling, about command. It is why they fall into it so easy. You have a weird misconception about rule and Lordly education, especially medieval one. Kings and great lords did not personally teach their heirs, there was staff for such things.

Both Jaime and Tyrion are accomplished leaders. They were clearly taught how to rule.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe not. Generally speaking I don't think violence is ever the answer. I would be lying if I said I didn't think Joff deserved to be smacked though.

So violence is the answer when someone makes a comment you don't like? Which is why Tyrion slapped his 12 year old nephew.

Just clarify your position please, it contradicts itself in one paragraph.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It may have been more beneficial for Tyrion to try to teach Joff, but I think it would have been a lost cause. Still he could have tried. 

Bingo!

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For sure, iirc Cersei does not allow Joff to be disciplined again after this though right? Not that I'm suggesting this form of discipline is right or helpful, I'm saying the lack of any discipline is just as bad for Joff as this is. 

Royalty and the heirs of High Lords was not supposed to be disciplined full stop. Whipping boys (and sometimes female equivalents for heiress') like Pate and Gaemon Palehair were used.

There are other ways to raise and discipline children rather than beating a child. Robert and Jaime's indifference. Tyrion hatred, Renly's jealousy and Stannis being Stannis all likely had negative impacts on Joffrey's time growing up at court. Tywin did not think he was a doomed cause, that he could still be salvaged.

 

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh, I'm not excusing it, I'm saying why it didn't bother me much & why I don't consider it as bad as some of the things Tywin has done. 

Sure, hitting a child pales into comparison to ordering a 14-year-old girl be gangraped.

But in context of the conversation, unless you only want that one event to be discussed, it informs, along with multiple other examples, on Tyrion's character and how the audience lets some of the bad things Tyrion does slide because they do it to character they don't like.

 

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm aware of the quote but he later says he didn't mean it &/or would not have gone through with it. I'm paraphrasing obviously but can look for the quote if you'd like. 

He is relieved that it was taken out of his hands. But his thoughts are clear, if he did not then Cersei wins and he could not have that.

And the Lannister golden rule is that they pay their debts. They don't make threats they will not carry out. This is explained by GRRM when he talks about Tyrion murdering his father

GRRM: An important thing that has been drilled in with him since his youth — because it’s very much Lord Tywin’s philosophy — is that you don’t make threats and then fail to carry them out. You threaten someone and then they defy you, and you don’t carry it out, then who’s gonna believe your threats? Your threats have to carry weight. And that’s drilled into Tyrion all his life. So his father says that word, his finger pushes on the crossbow, the decision of a split second, and then it’s done. And it will haunt him. Tywin was his father and that will continue to haunt him, probably for the rest of his life.

Lannisters don't make threats they are not prepared to carry out.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Absolutely. But don't you think that speaks to Tywins lack of understanding irt human emotions & how they are formed? He knows he has raised his children in this manner yet when Tyrion has a loaded crossbow pointed directly at him & tells him not to use that word again he does anyway.

It is a split second decision he makes with his pants down,on the toilet with a crossbow aimed at his chest. Mistakes are going to be made in that kind of situation.

Again, you seem to go going to great lengths to judge Tywin to a higher standard you would anyone else. Do you expect most people would have acted in the correct mannor in that kind of situation?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

I presume Tywin did not have a death wish, so saying it again shows he did not comprehend Tyrion was going to pull that trigger & he should have. 

Again, higher standards or do you think that everyone who has messed up when a loaded weapon being pointed at them will act entrieally rational and without fault.

And the fact that this is your example is hiilarious. 'Tywin lacks an understanding of humanity because he said the wrong thing while his life was threatened'. It is just a bizaree standard to hold anyone up to.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, on a legal level this is how it works. But when we are speaking directly to how vile or evil ones actions are it's worth taking into account what led up to that action IMO. 

Does that change the system? Does he get to ignore the system that beneifits him, when he comes face to face with one of the few people above him in the feudal order?

Tywin was treated like shit by Aerys, he sucked it up. It is a difference between father and son, or Tyrion and most people playing the game. Littlfinger, Varys and even Jaime had to make nice with people who mocked them and thought little of them. Tyrion is one of the few people, due to the privledge of who his father is, who can step out of the feudal system and get away with poisoning and insulting Queens, slapping and mocking Princes.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe we just have different ideas of what is right & wrong, good & bad? I don't think this is necessarily a good thing.

Please clafify your point, as this seems like another pivot rather than you addressing the point I made.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So do some people IRL because it's the bad that stings. It's the bad that sticks. It's very hard to believe someone doesn't have an ulterior motive when doing something that is seemingly good for you when you know they have done things so terribly wrong to you previously. 

List all the terribly wrong things his father has done, and all the positives he has done for him.

Oh, and this seems like another pivot as you seemed to have once again ignored the point I made.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, but the in universe standard of treatment to an unwanted child does not meet my personal moral standard. Again, if we are discussing horrible/vile deeds, I count his treatment of Tyrion regardless of the standard of treatment in universe. 

Wow. You don't seem to hold many other characters to this standard.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, he has luxuries never afforded to a dwarf born to a low-born family. I don't know if we have had a dwarf risen to the level Tyrion gets to but it says naught to what I'm saying. His father is mean & cruel to him. 

Outside of the rape, can you list all the other mean and cruel things Tywin has done to Tyrion.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He may have once been the most powerful dwarf in Westeros but he certainly doesn't hold much power or luxuries presently.

No shit he killed his father and was the main suspect in killing the King. And yeah, nice Pivot.

Why even respond if you are just going to ignore the majority of what I wrote and pivot into another direction?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

Likewise, when has another high-born noble been sold into slavery?

When did Tywin sell Tyrion into slavery? We are talking about their releationship, why the pivoting away from that?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

Tywin isn't real loving with any of his children but he is definitely worse to Tyrion. 

How so? Tyrion gets a say about marriage, Cersie does not. Tyrion is treated like an equal at Small Council meetings, Cersei is clearly not.

Which of his children did he make Hand of the King?

If all your evidenc hinges on one event. That seems to be it. And time and time again I have pointed out that it was an evil act, more so Tysha than to Tyrion.

What other events do you have for your hypothesis?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But he isn't treated the way Tywin treats his other children.

Yeah, he pretty much is. Perhaps he is even treated a little better. He gets more respect from his father than Cersei seems to. I doubt Jaime would have been allowed to spend a decade as a playboy doing as he pleased.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

His value as a human being isn't lessened by being a dwarf & if anyone should know that, it's his own father. 

Who ever claimed it was?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, he has given him ample reason to be grateful as well. 

List them.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I stand corrected. What I should have said is he doesn't do anything to help his son prove his innocence or stop or speak out against the mockery of a trial that was held. 

How was it a mockery? That was as fair as a medieval trial could get.

Tywin and Kevan don't think he is innocent. Tyrion himself can't think of who could have done it besides himself and Sansa. Tyrion had the motive, the means and the access to murder his nephew. He's also made threats to do just that.

Tywin had Kevan serve Tyrion in his defence. The trouble was Tyrion had no defence.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

My parents? Hardly. You would be 100% wrong in that guarantee. 

Sure. Fair enough, but do you understand the generalization.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If we are comparing who is worse, or more vile, but cannot compare who has done more horrific or vile things then the scales are slightly skewed no? 

Woah, anothe pivot. Nowhere in that post did I claim uuou cannot compare, I was adding greater context. Henry VIII AT 25 dies a well loved good King, he lives to 56 as something of a totaltarian who cost tens of thousand their lives over his vices and pride (Great king, awful person).

Most historical rulers, the longer they live, the worse they become or the worse they are judged.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Being in charge longer does not necessitate doing more vile deeds.

In the constant war ravaged middle ages, as well as earlier periods, it does. In general at least.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

There are plenty of rulers who could have ruled as long & committed much less atrocities. 

Plenty? I don't think so. I also don't think as many rulers would have done the same good that Tywin did for both the Westerlands and the realm in his period in charge.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think I am. I only said it once & it was in direct response to you listing some of Tyrions vile deeds. 

Okay. You genuinly think you've only brought up to me once in our exchanges in this thread? Seriously?

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It isn't just about who has more blood on their hands. It's about who they are, their actions, how they think & feel. 

It is a mixture of both.

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I have no reason to think Obama's daughters are evil little things but it's completely possible that they have committed vile acts that would trump their father's. 

Their father, as president, has ordered wars, commanded drone striks, ordered countries to be sanctioned and cut off from aid.

No, his daugthers have not commited anything near as bad as their father due to the greater authority and power their father briefly had.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dude, you are moving the goalposts. Your original point was that;   to constantly & consistently treat Tyrion poorly

No, I'm not. I've admitted those words were erroneous. I have no wish to explain myself repeatedly. If this is the territory we are now entering in our exchange I would suggest going back & rereading our whole exchange to understand where I'm coming from, if you have a wish to know. If not, that's ok too. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

None of these examples I gave are Tywin treating him poorly, which is was your point and a point not backed up in the series

Indeed but giving examples of when he has not treated him poorly does not prove he has not treated him poorly on other occasions. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

get it, it sucks to have your beliefs about something pulled a part and it seems easier to try to reframe your position rather than accept that you were wrong, but you clearly were wrong on this one. An ample amount of examples have been given to you.

You presume too much. I have no issue having my beliefs challenged or proved wrong. I also have no issue admitting when I'm wrong, as I've done so multiple times. 

The issue here is you believe you are proving something you are not. Listing times Tywin hasn't treated him poorly does prove wrong my "constantly & consistently" statement, which I have admitted. It does not prove he has not treated him poorly. 

I understand where you are coming from with this though, as it does seem you have a very hard time admitting you are wrong. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It proves against your statement that I disagreed with. What did you think the purpose was?

What is the point in trying to disprove a statement I already admitted was wrong? 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The rape lesson, something I have repeatedly called reprehensible from Tywin is the only time in the series I can think of when Tywin was generally awful to Tyrion

This is one instance, yes. The worst one I would say. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The time he said he would never inherit Casterly Rock was entirely justified given the context of what happened

I disagree as he had no intention that we or Tyrion are aware of, to let him inherit CR before this. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

By all means, list all the times in the series or Tyrion's life when he was treated poorly (in medieval terms, not modern day) by his father

Well, you can't put barriers on my argument & expect me to maintain them. I haven't said he only treated him poorly in medieval terms. But to name some:

- orchestrating the gang rape

- starting a war while Tyrion was a hostage of an enemy

- mocking him for being a dwarf

- not allowing him his birthright

- not showing him love or affection to him

- allowing Cersei to mistreat him as children

- when he taunted & goaded him, implying he is a coward, into being in the vanguard, expecting it to collapse 

- says it's Tyrion's fault his mother died

The issue is, it won't matter how many things I list as evidence of him treating him poorly, you will insist those interactions are not treating him poorly (which ultimately is a matter of opinion) & we will stay at square one. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It speaks to how well he knew her. Are you in a partnership with someone you love? Or have you been? (I do remember you like to put yourself in Tyrion's shoes in these conversations). What would it take for a sibling to convince you that person was not what they claimed to be and that they did not really love you?

Certainly it speaks to how well he knew her, but as I said, it does not speak to how faulty his memory is. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

When I say Tyrion did not really know her it is based on how little it took him to believe Jaime's word over hers.

Where did I claim he knew her so well? 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So not only is his memory on the situation unreliable but so too were his feelings at the time

I disagree his memory is unreliable irt his relationship with Tysha. It seems he has a blockage of sorts irt the actual gang rape but that is not very unusual & doesn't speak to the accuracy of his memory when speaking on other instances. Furthermore, my argument is & has been the evidence we have suggests she was in love with him. Whether or not that memory is faulty does not matter, it's still the only evidence we have. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, there is. See my previous response

No there isn't, see my previous response. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What is everything? List everything? List the great detail of knowledge we have and who this is from

Where did I say we have a great detail of knowledge? I didn't. If I had said this you would jump all over it saying my argument is disingenuous, I'm pivoting, moving goal posts, arguing against things you didn't say. So please, hold your self to the same standards you hold me to. 

Here is the evidence I'm speaking too: 

Quote

When I broke her maidenhead, she wept, but afterward she kissed me and sang her little song, and by morning I was in love.

Quote

so I set herup in a cottage of her own, and for a fortnight we played at being man and wife.

 

Quote

Tysha fed me crackling and I licked the grease off her fingers, and we were laughing when we fell into bed

 

Quote

He saw Tysha smiling as she kissed him

Quote

Remembered notes filled his head, and for a moment he could almost hear Tysha as she’d sung to him half a lifetime ago. He reined up to listen.
         The tune was wrong, the words too faint to hear. A different song then, and why not?
         His sweet innocent Tysha had been a lie start to finish, only a whore his brotherJaime had hired to make him a man.

 

Quote

They would kiss for hours, and spend whole days doing no more than lolling in bed, listening to the waves, and touching each other. Her body was a wonder to him, and she seemed to find delight in his. Sometimes she would sing to him. I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. “I love you, Tyrion,” she would whisper before they went to sleep at night. “I love your lips. I love your voice, and the words you say to me, and how you treat me gentle. I love your face.”
       “My face?”
      “Yes. Yes. I love your hands, and how you touch me. Your cock, I love your cock, I love how it feels when it’s in me.”
       “It loves you too, my lady.”
              “I love to say your name. Tyrion Lannister. It goes with mine. Not the Lannister, t’other part. Tyrion and Tysha. Tysha and Tyrion. Tyrion. My lord Tyrion …”

Quote

She used to tease me about that, he remembered. I never thought to feed the fire, that had always been a servant’s task. “We have no servants,” she would remind me, and I would say, “You have me, I’m your servant,” and she would say, “A lazy servant. What do they do with lazy servants in Casterly Rock, my lord?” and he would tell her, “They kiss them.” That would always make her giggle. “They do not neither. They beat them, I bet,” she would say, but he would insist, “No, they kiss them, just like this.” He would show her how. “They kiss their fingers first, every one, and they kiss their wrists, yes, and inside their elbows. Then they kiss their funny ears, all our servants have funny ears. Stop laughing! And they kiss their cheeks and they kiss their noses with the little bump in them, there, so, like that, and they kiss their sweet brows and their hair and their lips, their … mmmm … mouths … so …”

She says she loves him & they behave as two people in love. 

I'll have to reply to the rest later, busy atm

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is plenty. He was a 13-year-old dwarf she had known for a week. She was a homeless orphaned peasant in the medieval world.

 

GRRM has this to say about his world;

: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

 

Can you tell me what message do you think GRRM is trying to tell his readers about his world?

I understand & have readily admitted that Tysha had no real choice in the matter. The story we are told though, gives no indication that she was forced, that she didn't want to participate, or that she didn't love him. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb's using the same goal. It was an effective way to win in the medieval age

I don't think I suggested it wasn't. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He has quite a bit of reason to be loyal to his father. His father could have drowned him as a child

Sorry, but I disagree that not drowning him as a child gives Tyrion reason to be loyal to Tywin. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Now in other responses you, wrongly, accuse me of hyperbole

It wasn't wrongly, it was hyperbole. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

but surely the idea that Tyrion has no cause to be loyal to his father is simply wrong, even if you ignore the concept of Houses and family in GRRM's world

Yeah, I suppose so. He has cause to be loyal to him because without him he has nothing, agreed. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was. That is exactly what can be said. Kevan points that out, Genna points that out.

Well, I'm not in disagreement he was serving. It was by your logic that it isn't truly serving if it's in your own best interest that I'm operating under. I think they both truly served, and it was in self interest for both of them. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The majority of sons serve their House in the series. Tyrion is one of the few exceptions. Even Lame Lothar serves his House, Tyrion is a playboy

And again, he serves when he is allowed to serve. He can't just tell Tywin he is going to start ruling something. He has to be given permission/command to do so. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is it a joke? Tyrion does not view it as a joke. Please, please try rereading these books rather than be opinionated on parts you are clearly a little ignorant about.

If you don't read that as sarcasm then there really isn't much more to discuss irt that. Will just have to agree to disagree. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why do you think he had no business doing so? It is a command position

Because he has not been trained to our knowledge to fight, to lead, to war, etc. He is a small man & placing him on a battle field is putting him & the men he leads into unnecessary danger. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Your feelings on a dwarfs abilities seem to be different to how Tyrion and Tywin see them

Tywin seems to think he is able enough when it's him commanding him into battle but other times?        

Quote

 

“Though the wound is ghastly enough, I’ll grant you. What madness possessed you?”

      “The foe was at the gates with a battering ram. IfJaime had led the sortie, you’d call it valor.”

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Please expand and quote evidence for this? I'd love to hear how you have came to this conclusion

 

Quote

“What do I want, you ask? I’ll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock.”

Point 1. He is asking for it, which indicates to me he has never been acknowledged him as his heir previously. 
      
              

Quote

His father’s mouth grew hard. “Your brother’s birthright?”
              “The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.”

 

Point 2. Tywin is calling this Jaime's birthright, knowing well & good he is a member of the KG & by law cannot inherit. 

Quote

Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless.
         “Casterly Rock” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.”

Point 3. Never. Not, no because you threatened your nephew. Never. Never was, never is going to be.       
              
      He has intentionally with held Tyrion's birthright from him, holding out hopes that Jaime will one day agree to remove himself from the KG, just as I said. 

And why? 

Quote

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning.
         Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

Because he killed his mother, is ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful, full of envy, lust & low cunning & because he will not let Tyrion turn CR into his whorehouse. 

And what evidence does he have Tyrion will do any such thing? 

Quote

 

“My whorehouse?” The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, “Cersei told you about Alayaya.”
       “Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?”
       “Tysha.” He spat out the answer, defiant.
          “And that camp follower on the Green Fork?”
              “Why do you care?” he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae’s name in his presence.

“I don’t. No more than I care if they live or die.”

 

Because he has slept with whores. Something Tywin himself does also, we later learn. 

Contrary to your repeated assertion that he is denied CR for threatening his nephew, we are told exactly what his punishment is for threatening his nephew & it isn't not having CR. He was never going to have CR any way it went. 

Quote

“It was you who had Yaya whipped.” It was not a question.
       “Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons.” Lord Tywin’s voice wascolder than ice. “Did she lie?”

He had Yaya whipped. 

Also, to your repeated assertion that Tyrion would have carried out his threat on Tommen, because a Lannister always pays his debts. I agree there is a small possibility evidenced by that very thing, however, Tyrion gives us another explanation, one in which I'm inclined to believe. 

Quote

 

Tyrion would not deny it. “I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her.”
       “To save a whore’s virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?”

         "You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffrey hasn’t tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you’re so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen … why would I harm Tommen? He’s a good lad, and mine own blood.”

 

A threat meant to keep Alaya from being abused. 

Gtg again. Reply to more later. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure he has. Where is your evidence that Tywin did not give his sons any teachings on rule?

The evidence is that we have no instances where Tywin is teaching Tyrion to rule. He wouldn't have seen any reason to as he never seen him as his heir. 

As to Jaime, maybe he did, but it isn't shown. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So violence is the answer when someone makes a comment you don't like? Which is why Tyrion slapped his 12 year old nephew

Pretty sure I said no such thing. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Just clarify your position please, it contradicts itself in one paragraph

No, it doesn't contradict itself. I believe Joffrey deserved to be slapped. I also believe violence is not ever a good answer. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

is relieved that it was taken out of his hands. But his thoughts are clear, if he did not then Cersei wins and he could not have tha

And yet he never makes any attempt to do so & also later says he wouldn't have. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

is a split second decision he makes with his pants down,on the toilet with a crossbow aimed at his chest. Mistakes are going to be made in that kind of situation

I don't think it takes much thought. I don't know about you but if someone is pointing a weapon at me & telling me not to say a particular word again, I'm going to make damn sure I don't say that word again. 

There is nothing in that passage that suggests to me this was a mishap or slip of the tongue by Tywin because he was in an intense situation.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

, and this seems like another pivot as you seemed to have once again ignored the point I made

No, iirc I was agreeing with a point you made here, but call it what you will.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Wow. You don't seem to hold many other characters to this standard

Don't I?

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Please clafify your point, as this seems like another pivot rather than you addressing the point I made

My point is sucking up to Aerys & letting himself be treated badly by him is not a point to his positive IMO.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

When did Tywin sell Tyrion into slavery? We are talking about their releationship, why the pivoting away from that?

I never said Tywin sold him into slavery & no, we weren't speaking to only their relationship here, we were speaking to the noble class. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

List them

? You said Tywin has given Tyrion ample reason to be grateful, I agreed, & now you want me to list the things? Sorry, but no. These posts are long enough without listing out something we both agreed on. That's just redundant. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Okay. You genuinly think you've only brought up to me once in our exchanges in this thread? Seriously

What you quoted was in response to saying I was beating a dead horse for listing things Tywin had done & yes, at that point I had only listed them once. 

Again, though, I have no urge or want to do this over & over; where we exchange back & forth for a bit & then I'm having to explain what you said, what I said back, what you said back & how we got to the point we are. I'll just ignore it from now on. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, his daugthers have not commited anything near as bad as their father due to the greater authority and power their father briefly had.

Do you know that? Can you prove it? 

I'm being facetious but when people have to be judged on what's available to them right? Those children have never been in a position to rule or have say over the things their father has. That, in & of itself, doesn't make them less bad or evil than him. They may have tortured animals their entire lives or molested other children, both things I would call more evil than ordering drone strikes.

To clarify, the drone strikes are terrible but there may be good reason for them. There is never a good reason to torture animals. The drone strikes most certainly have harmed more people than his children could molesting other children but the maliciousness involved in molesting children tells me that a person who would do such is more vile than a person ordering drone strikes at war. 

[SFDanny]

It looks like I've missed quite a bit of discussion here, but I wanted to add something to the topic. I haven't read everything I've missed, so if I'm duplicating something already said forgive me. 

Quote

And so it came to pass that the second of what the smallfolk named Queen Alysanne's Law was enacted: the abolition of the lord's ancient right to the first night. Henceforth, it was decreed, a bride's maidenhead would belong only to her husband, whether joined before a septon or a heart three, and any man, be he lord or peasant, who took her on her wedding night or any other night would be guilty of the crime of rape. (Fire & Blood 272) bold emphasis added

Now Tywin did not physically participate in the rape of his good daughter, but he made it happen. It seems clear to me the laws of Westeros must make ordering a rape a crime as well as the actual act itself. It is very clear the Lords of the realm are subject to these laws. Tywin has no lordly right to do as he did. The right of pit and gallows does not permit punishment like this.

Nor does it permit the dissolution of a consummated marriage. It takes the High Septon's approval upon the testimony of the participants that the marriage was not consummated. So Tywin could not have actually dissolved the marriage because of their age or the lack of his approval.

What Tywin does is against all the laws of Westeros and the laws of the Seven. So, please explain how Tyrion was to anticipate the reality of Tywin's reaction. Because he knew about what Tywin did to the Reynes and the Tarbecks before Tyrion was even born? Because his father's troops raped and killed Elia? Tyrion knew Tywin would not be pleased by his marriage, as his hiding Tysha away shows, but he did not and could not have anticipated anything approaching Tywin's crime. Perhaps this is another reason the thirteen year old Tyrion accepts Jaime's lie. Tywin's response here is beyond anything anyone would expect.

The worst Tyrion would expect is to be disowned as Tywin threatens to do later if he leaves to the Free Cities. But this too is unlikely. Tyrion is by right the heir to Casterly Rock because Jaime has already been made a member of the Kingsguard. Why should he expect this response. Perhaps exile for the two of them, but not this. Perhaps passing over Tyrion's claim for a cousin, but not this. What he will believe is what Tywin forced Jaime to lie about to him. What he will believe is his father's claim that he took care of it and it was as if the marriage never happened.

[corbon]

21 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

What Tyrion does is against all the laws of Westeros and the laws of the Seven. So, please explain how Tyrion was to anticipate the reality of Tywin's reaction.

You'd need to find someone arguing that Tyrion should have expected that particular reality first.

21 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Because he knew about what Tywin did to the Reynes and the Tarbecks before Tyrion was even born? Because his father's troops raped and killed Elia? Tyrion knew Tywin would not be pleased by his marriage, as his hiding Tysha away shows, but he did not and could not have anticipated anything approaching Tywin's crime.

Anything approaching? I disagree - as a possibility of some reaction 'approaching' that - depending on the value of 'approaching'.
That particular response? Of course there was no possibility of expecting it.

To give an example of what I think was a reasonable possibility for Tyrion to expect, given the fate of the Reynes and the Tarbecks?
Tysha dead in the ruins of burned out love-nest and Tyrion marched back to Casterly Rock to suffer some considerably milder punishment.

21 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Perhaps this is another reason the thirteen year old Tyrion accepts Jaime's lie. Tywin's response here is beyond anything anyone would expect.

Its different from what anyone could reasonably expect. Beyond? Thats debatable depending on whether you think murder is beyond gang-rape. 
Not that either would be 'legal', but I don;t think even 13 year old Tyrion could honestly expect the legal niceties to protect Tysha.

 

[SFDanny]

8 minutes ago, corbon said:

You'd need to find someone arguing that Tyrion should have expected that particular reality first.

OOPSI that is supposed to read "Tywin", not "Tyrion." I've corrected the error.

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

OOPSI that is supposed to read "Tywin", not "Tyrion." I've corrected the error.

Err, makes no difference. No one, as far as I am aware, had argued that Tyrion ought to have expected the precise reaction he got from Tywin.

[SFDanny]

1 minute ago, corbon said:

Err, makes no difference. No one, as far as I am aware, had argued that Tyrion ought to have expected the precise reaction he got from Tywin.

It makes a great deal of difference in looking for what Tyrion would have thought his father's response would be. Notice, corbon, I didn't direct the post to refute a particular argument from any particular poster. I'm trying to contribute to the topic by showing what I think is important. I think what Tyrion as a thirteen year old could have anticipated his father would have done is quite important to this discussion. We are confronted with the question of why did Tyrion believe the lie. My point is that not only is that based on his trust in his brother, but also just how outside the norm, and, yes, the law is Tywin's response. If you don't think that is important please tell me why?

29 minutes ago, corbon said:

To give an example of what I think was a reasonable possibility for Tyrion to expect, given the fate of the Reynes and the Tarbecks?
Tysha dead in the ruins of burned out love-nest and Tyrion marched back to Casterly Rock to suffer some considerably milder punishment.

Its different from what anyone could reasonably expect. Beyond? Thats debatable depending on whether you think murder is beyond gang-rape. 
Not that either would be 'legal', but I don;t think even 13 year old Tyrion could honestly expect the legal niceties to protect Tysha.

Perhaps Tyrion should have known just how far his father was  willing to go, but I don't see any evidence he should anticipate the murder or rape of Tysha. Certainly no evidence that he did anticipate either as a response. If that was the case then we could say he was reckless in the extreme. Still not to blame for his father's deeds, but reckless in the chance he took. But what we have here is a young boy and girl who fell in love and knew that it would be difficult in getting acceptance of their marriage.

Beyond the breaking of the custom of getting the father's approval they did nothing to deserve punishment, especially to this degree. Please witness Hoster Tully's response when his brother did not marry as he wished. He never forgave him, but he also never punished him or tried to do violence to the Blackfish. That is normal and within the law. That is something an adult Brynden could anticipate from his brother the High Lord of the Riverlands. Egg's sons are another example. 

What could be reasonably anticipated would be for Tywin to have his marriage set aside against Tyrion's wishes. That is something that can include threats of disowning Tyrion and the removal of all kinds of support and privileges. Was Tyrion really ready to stand up to his father's pressure? We will never know because what he does is so far beyond what could be expected that no one could expect Tyrion to contemplate.

[corbon]

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

It makes a great deal of difference in looking for what Tyrion would have thought his father's response would be.

I mean, the error doesn't appear to affect  the statement.

I think our misunderstanding there is that you quoted my response, so I assumed your error fix was relevant to that response.

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

 We are confronted with the question of why did Tyrion believe the lie.

Which lie exactly? Sorry, I'm confused a bit here.

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

My point is that not only is that based on his trust in his brother, but also just how outside the norm, and, yes, the law is Tywin's response. If you don't think that is important please tell me why?

Tywins's response being the gang-rape, which is outside the law?
Sure, it is. And I don't think Tyrion had any chance of anticipating that particular response.

But I don't see how Tyrion would have expected a trifling thing like the law to stand between Tywin and Tywin's reaction. Killing Tysha would be just as illegal, but I think its pretty clear that killing a peasant isn't likely to be an issue for the legendarily ruthless Tywin Lannister who wiped out two entire noble families because their heads defied him.

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Perhaps Tyrion should have known just how far his father was  willing to go, but I don't see any evidence he should anticipate the murder or rape of Tysha.

Why not. If Tywin can wipe out the Reynes and Tarbecks, their entire noble families including women and children, just because the heads of their families defied him, how much worse will it be for an orphaned peasant girl?

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Certainly no evidence that he did anticipate either as a response.

I think his guilt is at least partly associated with recognising that he should have understood such a possibility but instead let himself be seduced by the moment.

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

If that was the case then we could say he was reckless in the extreme. Still not to blame for his father's deeds, but reckless in the chance he took. But what we have here is a young boy and girl who fell in love and knew that it would be difficult in getting acceptance of their marriage.

Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying. With mitigating circumstances (youth and hormones mostly), but still, reckless, very reckless, and selfish. He is 13 after all, reckless and selfish is what they do for the most part. 

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Beyond the breaking of the custom of getting the father's approval they did nothing to deserve punishment, especially to this degree.

I agree.
But this is Tywin Lannister here, and Tyrion knew what he was like. Not fully perhaps, but he was not unaware his father was extremely ruthless and vindictive.
And while this is nothing entirely illegal, its a huge abrogation of Tywin;s rights and worse, Lannister honour. Even at 13 Tyrion has to be aware of that.

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Please witness Hoster Tully's response when his brother did not marry as he wished. He never forgave him, but he also never punished him or tried to do violence to the Blackfish. That is normal and within the law. That is something an adult Brynden could anticipate from his brother the High Lord of the Riverlands. Egg's sons are another example. 

Hoster and Egg are not Tywin Lannister. They haven't wiped out entire noble families. I'm sure there are more, lesser, examples of Tywin's vicious and ruthless exercise of power that Tyrion knew of that haven't been named or described.

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

What could be reasonably anticipated would be for Tywin to have his marriage set aside against Tyrion's wishes. That is something that can include threats of disowning Tyrion and the removal of all kinds of support and privileges. Was Tyrion really ready to stand up to his father's pressure? We will never know because what he does is so far beyond what could be expected that no one could expect Tyrion to contemplate.

We can agree on many things, and agree to disagree on others. I think its entirely reasonable for 13 year old Tyrion to have understood that he was putting unprotected Tysha in a possible world of trouble. He may have been mostly protected by his familial relationship, but she never was.

He knew it couldn't last. He knew Tywin would be furious. Thats why he tried to hide it. He neglected to consider the results of that for Tysha entirely I think - too scary to think of and the moment he did start thinking about it he would have to lose the current pleasure.
It was reckless and selfish, and he knows it.
We recognise mitigating factors, he of course ignores those, as is common. Good people typically blame themselves more than they deserve, not less.

We also recognise that Tywin and Tywin alone holds the actual responsibility for exactly how it panned out, not Tyrion.

[SFDanny]

7 hours ago, corbon said:

I mean, the error doesn't appear to affect  the statement.

I think our misunderstanding there is that you quoted my response, so I assumed your error fix was relevant to that response.

Who broke the laws of Westeros and the Faith by ordering a rape of his good daughter? Tywin, not Tyrion. That is a fairly major difference. I assumed you caught my error and were helping my by correcting it. I'm puzzled by you think there is no difference in the before and after correction.

I started my post in #154 with a quote from Fire & Blood concerning the changing of the law about the First Night. The quote of you in the next post #156 was simply to thank you for the correction. As I said above, I'm puzzled by you not seeing the difference. I've got to believe this disagreement is more about you thinking my first post was some kind of criticism of someone else's post. It wasn't. What is was, was an attempt to inject some new information into the discussion.

8 hours ago, corbon said:

Which lie exactly? Sorry, I'm confused a bit here.

The lie told to Tyrion by Jaime and constructed and pushed by Tywin that Tysha was a whore and she was paid to fool Tyrion into believing she loved him. Kind of an important lie that is central to this discussion.

8 hours ago, corbon said:

Tywins's response being the gang-rape, which is outside the law?
Sure, it is. And I don't think Tyrion had any chance of anticipating that particular response.

But I don't see how Tyrion would have expected a trifling thing like the law to stand between Tywin and Tywin's reaction. Killing Tysha would be just as illegal, but I think its pretty clear that killing a peasant isn't likely to be an issue for the legendarily ruthless Tywin Lannister who wiped out two entire noble families because their heads defied him.

The killing of the Reynes and the Tarbecks is ancient history as far as Tyrion is concerned. This takes place in 261 to possibly 262 AC, some eleven or twelve years before Tyrion is even born. When the marriage takes place is in 286 to sometime before Tyrion's name day in 287 the interval is even much longer. The deaths of the Reynes and the Tarbecks was something like 25 to 26 years before Tyrion has to contemplate his father's reaction to his marriage. Moreover, as brutal and savage as the destruction of two clans were, the action was legal. The Reynes and the Tarbecks blatantly and willfully rose in rebellion to their lawful Lord and betrayed their oaths of fealty. Tyrion neither had the experience of that time, nor did he have any reason to believe he would suffer the same fate for the lawful act of marriage. While Tyrion grossly miscalculated his father's response, he had no reason to believe he would do what he did, and he had every reason to believe that the law applied to him. Perhaps he read the stories about Duncan and Jenny and took them too much to heart, but he had reason to think Tywin's response would be much less brutal and criminal than it was.

9 hours ago, corbon said:

Why not. If Tywin can wipe out the Reynes and Tarbecks, their entire noble families including women and children, just because the heads of their families defied him, how much worse will it be for an orphaned peasant girl?

Because, while orphaned peasant girls don't often get justice in Westeros is not reason for Tyrion to believe he could not get some kind of justice. In many other noble houses in the realm he would have. 

9 hours ago, corbon said:

I think his guilt is at least partly associated with recognising that he should have understood such a possibility but instead let himself be seduced by the moment.

Oh, I agree totally with this - as far as it goes. Looking back with guilt and regret does not mean he really should as a thirteen year old boy understood what Tywin was capable of doing.

9 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying. With mitigating circumstances (youth and hormones mostly), but still, reckless, very reckless, and selfish. He is 13 after all, reckless and selfish is what they do for the most part.

Perhaps we agree here. It is a matter of just how reckless he thought he was being. I would add here there is a vitally important role that Tyrion's desperation for love and affection plays here. I don't think it is selfish to want those things. Reckless in how he went after those things, yes. Selfish to do so, no.

9 hours ago, corbon said:

I agree.
But this is Tywin Lannister here, and Tyrion knew what he was like. Not fully perhaps, but he was not unaware his father was extremely ruthless and vindictive.
And while this is nothing entirely illegal, its a huge abrogation of Tywin;s rights and worse, Lannister honour. Even at 13 Tyrion has to be aware of that.

I think the "not fully" is key here. Remembering that for much of Tyrion's life up to this point Tywin is for the most part absent from Tyrion's life. He is in King's Landing as Hand of the King doing his duty to Aerys. At times Tywin returns to Casterly Rock, but it isn't until 281 that Tywin resigns his office and returns home to take up residence in Casterly Rock. What Tyrion's life was like with his father in the five years before the marriage is unknown, but we don't know of but one act that should have clued Tyrion into his father's nature. That is the murder of Elia and her children. Here again, Tyrion is not with his father as he leads his troops to King's Landing. He doesn't experience his father's nature during that critical time.

9 hours ago, corbon said:

Hoster and Egg are not Tywin Lannister. They haven't wiped out entire noble families. I'm sure there are more, lesser, examples of Tywin's vicious and ruthless exercise of power that Tyrion knew of that haven't been named or described.

The bolded is obviously true, but they are examples that Tyrion might well know of and persuaded him that he just might have cause to hope for a better response. I don't doubt the rest is probably true, whether or not Tyrion knew of them I can't say.

9 hours ago, corbon said:

We can agree on many things, and agree to disagree on others. I think its entirely reasonable for 13 year old Tyrion to have understood that he was putting unprotected Tysha in a possible world of trouble. He may have been mostly protected by his familial relationship, but she never was.

He knew it couldn't last. He knew Tywin would be furious. Thats why he tried to hide it. He neglected to consider the results of that for Tysha entirely I think - too scary to think of and the moment he did start thinking about it he would have to lose the current pleasure.
It was reckless and selfish, and he knows it.
We recognise mitigating factors, he of course ignores those, as is common. Good people typically blame themselves more than they deserve, not less.

We also recognise that Tywin and Tywin alone holds the actual responsibility for exactly how it panned out, not Tyrion.

We agree on much of this, and disagree on parts. Most of which are covered in my responses above.