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Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Tysha - who is to blame?

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5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I respect your opinion but could you elaborate a little? Do you think Tyrion could have refused Tywin? Or do you think it's his fault regardless of if he could have refused or not? 

I do think Tyrion could've refused, it would not go well for him if he did, likely he would be disown, but he could've, he didn't because he thought Tysha was a whore. He would've absolutely refused had he known the truth in that moment imo.

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11 minutes ago, frenin said:

I do think Tyrion could've refused, it would not go well for him if he did, likely he would be disown, but he could've, he didn't because he thought Tysha was a whore. He would've absolutely refused had he known the truth in that moment imo.

I agree it's a possibility. I think it's also possible that the consequence could have been more than being disowned. I agree the Tyrion we know today most certainly would have refused knowing she wasn't a whore (probably even if she was) but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that 13 year old Tyrion didn't refuse out of fear. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree it's a possibility. I think it's also possible that the consequence could have been more than being disowned. I agree the Tyrion we know today most certainly would have refused knowing she wasn't a whore (probably even if she was) but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that 13 year old Tyrion didn't refuse out of fear. 

I think that fear was a factor but if so, Tywin would not need to lie, it was unlikely that Tyrion went along with it if he was aware of the truth, 13 years or not fear or not she was his wife and he loved her, so Tywin lied to him to make sure Tyrion did not do somethng too funny.

Tyrion was shitscared of Tywin and believed Tysha a whore, he was not going to do anything in that position, what would he risk everything for a whore against a father that terrified him??

Edited by frenin

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5 minutes ago, frenin said:

I do think Tyrion could've refused, it would not go well for him if he did, likely he would be disown, but he could've, he didn't because he thought Tysha was a whore. He would've absolutely refused had he known the truth in that moment imo.

I absolutely agree with the bolded part. Which really is the main point of Tywin's lie. But the moment Tywin creates the lie, everything he does is designed to psychologically manipulate Tyrion through every step he takes so he doesn't believe the truth and won't refuse. Could Tyrion have uttered the word "no"? Absolutely. But that action is forestalled by everything Tywin does.

Let me disagree here slightly. I don't think fear of Tywin is the main factor in Tyrion's "choice" to do as Tywin tells him and go last in Tysha's rape. That fear is always there because Tyrion knows his father and knows what the dangers are if he crosses him. But what Tywin successfully does to Tyrion is, I think, not so much respond out of fear, but to respond out of the humiliation and degradation he feels by the actions Tywin takes. It is all designed to, among other things, to rub Tyrion's nose in the supposed fact he isn't worthy or capable of being loved or desired. Tyrion has to accept the "fact" Tysha didn't love him. That she was a whore who was paid to fake her love for him and her desire for him. When Tyrion participates in what really was a gang rape, he accepts not only the lie Tywin has told him about Tysha, but what Tywin tells him about himself. It is the same message Tywin has always told his youngest son. He is unworthy of love. Tyrion is accepting his father's judgement not only about Tysha, but about him.

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16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

IMO Tyrion isn’t to blame.

He's to blame for his own actions, he's not to blame what Tywin did to her.

  • He is not forced to rape her,
  • is not threatened to rape her
  • and does not fear of the consequences of what would happen to him if he did not rape her.

We know that he rapes her because he is told she is a whore and he was aroused. In their society whores are to have sex with.

Tyrion, the son of the most powerful lord in the realm, sends armed men like Bronn and Jyck, to acquire whores for him.

"I would prefer one who is reasonably young, with as pretty a face as you can find," he had said. "If she has washed sometime this year, I shall be glad. If she hasn't, wash her. Be certain that you tell her who I am, and warn her of what I am." Jyck had not always troubled to do that. There was a look the girls got in their eyes sometimes when they first beheld the lordling they'd been hired to pleasure … a look that Tyrion Lannister did not ever care to see again.

They are not all going to be willing like Shae, some of them will be too scared to say no to Tyrion, many will be in a similar position Tysha was in and Tyrion, like he did with Tysha, will have sex with them because in their society (in the Middle Ages you could not actually rape a whore in most cultures) it was the acceptable thing to do.

 

Tyrion's behaviour in ADWD is likely not uncommon to how he lived most of his life. Having sex with the slave at Illyrio's or the prostitute with the dead eyes later on are likely not the first times since Tysha he has had sex with a woman scared of the consequences of saying no.

 

The whore did not respond. "Do you know where whores go?" She did not answer that one either. Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me.

 

What Tywin did to Tysha remains reprehensible, but Tyrion still raped her as he has likely raped many women in his time. He is not the only noble who will have done this. Tyrion being ignorant of it being rape, does not make it any less rape.

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I respect your opinion but could you elaborate a little? Do you think Tyrion could have refused Tywin? Or do you think it's his fault regardless of if he could have refused or not? 

Tyrion thinks he could have. We will never know because he did not bother to try. Not out of fear, but out of arousal and simply being told that she was a whore.

 

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19 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

 

That fear is always there because Tyrion knows his father and knows what the dangers are if he crosses him

That makes zero sense. If he was so fearful he'd not have married her in the first place. The picture you are painting is not what is described in the books.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion thinks he could have. We will never know because he did not bother to try. Not out of fear, but out of arousal and simply being told that she was a whore.

I disagree. I agree with @SFDanny that fear was a motivation but also her being a whore. Like @frenin said he wasn't going to risk his father's wrath over a woman he believed betrayed him & is a whore. 

ETA: we really don't know what he did or didn't try either. As I said earlier we don't get the entire exchange verbatim. He may have quietly done as he was told or he may have yelled & screamed & kicked. We just don't know. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That makes zero sense. If he was so fearful he'd not have married her in the first place. The picture you are painting is not what is described in the books.

That's not really true. We know he was fearful that's why he hid her. 

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19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's to blame for his own actions, he's not to blame what Tywin did to her.

  • He is not forced to rape her,
  • is not threatened to rape her
  • and does not fear of the consequences of what would happen to him if he did not rape her.

We know that he rapes her because he is told she is a whore and he was aroused. In their society whores are to have sex with.

 Tyrion, the son of the most powerful lord in the realm, sends armed men like Bronn and Jyck, to acquire whores for him.

Tyrion then is a child of 13. And we’ve only heard one account of what happened, w/o the details. We never witnessed events first-hand to know any of the things you claim, namely, that he wasn’t forced, that he wasn’t threatened, and that he doesn’t fear the consequences he’d face if he defied Tywin. Also, did I mention he is a child of 13?

To the bold, he sure does. But he does not tell Bronn to bring him whores at sword point as far as I recall, so not sure what’s the point you’re trying to make when you say he sends “armed men”. The other little detail you failed to mention is that by then he is ~ 25 years old. 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:
17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Not officially. If it was common knowledge that Tyrion got married, and who his wife is, then Tywin would have never done what he did. He wouldn't have been able.

What makes you think so? 

What was the purpose of what Tywin did? -> He wanted to prevent Tyrion from revealing that son of Tywin Lannister humiliated him by getting married with a commoner, without even asking his father's permission. And Tyrion, marrying with a commoner, spoiled for Tywin future possibilities of arranging advantageous political marriage between Tyrion, last free member of House Lannister, and some important great House. If Tyrion's marriage became common knowledge, then, even if Tywin used his authority (as the Lord of Westerlands, and also the fact that Tyrion at that time was underaged, thus shouldn't have been able to get married without his parents' consent) to annul their marriage, the damage would have been already inflicted. Because who would want to marry their highborn lady-daughter to a guy, who previously was married with a commoner? That would be degrading for any Lord. Just look at Illyrio and his two marriages - his ex-brother-in-law got enraged, that after marriage with his sister, Illyrio dared to marry with an ex-whore. Though, why should he care, if his sister is long dead, and her widowed husband, getting married to whoever he has chosen, has no relevance for her? Nevertheless he did cared, because it was bad for his house's reputation. Same thing with any Lord that will contemplate marriage between his House and House Lannister, it would have been humiliating for any highborn lady to get married with a guy, whose previous wife was a mere crofter's daughter. Thus it was not enough just to separate Tyrion from Tysha, and make their marriage to be annuled. What Tywin was aiming for is to prevent Tyrion from telling to anyone that he was married.

And after those guards raped Tysha, there was no way for Tyrion to man up and announce that that woman was his wife. That would have been too humiliating for Tyrion, to say to people that he got married with a whore, and that a full room of Lannister guards had a go at her. He became unable to stand up for her, because he thought - what's the point? what happened happened, and it can't be undone. No matter what he will do, it won't make things better for Tysha. Thus, what's the point for revealing their marriage, if by that he will just hurt himself too.

The whole purpose of what Tywin did, was to stop Tyrion from revealing his marriage to other people.

Thus, if Tyrion officially introduced Tysha as his wife, at some gathering of House Lannister and their bannermen, shortly after they got married, then there was no way to revoke it. The damage to reputation of House Lannister would have been already inflicted, and would have been irrevocable, even if the marriage itself would have been later annuled. There would have been no point for Tywin to do anything to Tysha, if Tysha was acknowledged as a member of House Lannister.

By not making it public, who Tysha is to him, Tyrion made her a target.

And the fact that now, years ago after that event, Tyrion told his story to Bronn, doesn't matter anymore. Because Tysha is long gone, maybe even dead. Eitherway it's not relevant anymore. Furthermore, since then, to defy his father, Tyrion did even worse things, that damaged his House's reputation, than a mere marriage with a commoner. His alcoholism and frolicing with whores is a common knowledge. No one wants their daughter to marry with Tyrion, so information about Tysha, even if Tyrion will reveal it, doesn't matter anymore.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:
17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Not officially. If it was common knowledge that Tyrion got married, and who his wife is, then Tywin would have never done what he did. He wouldn't have been able

What & who would have stopped him?

Read what I wrote above. There would have been no point anymore.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:
17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Many years later, when the guild for what he did turned him into alcoholic and debaucher

Nope, he tells Sansa, Shae, & Bronn long before he is an alcoholic & we have no idea who else he may have told along the way. 

He became alcoholic years ago.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You are missing my point. Tyrion could have told every single person in Westeros that he was officially married to Tysha. It wouldn't matter. Tywin is still going to tell them that she isn't really a crofters daughter, but a whore Jaime paid to sleep with Tyrion. 

Tywin would have never said it. Because that information would have damaged his and his House's reputation. The whole point of what was done to Tysha, was to prevent this information from getting out, at least then, when that information was relevant, before Tyrion inflected all that other damage on his House.

Edited by Megorova

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Tywin and the Lannisters are mostly to blame.  One could say all share some blame.  Tysha was no stranger to westeros. Should she have known better?  I think so.  Tyrion was a young man but he's been educated from birth as a noble man. He should have known better too.  An early teen rapists?  Maybe.  

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That makes zero sense. If he was so fearful he'd not have married her in the first place. The picture you are painting is not what is described in the books.

The "picture" I'm painting is taken straight from the books and looking at this question in the context of all we know from the books. As to the idea that if Tyrion was so fearful he would have not married Tysha in the first place, it has already been answered by @Lyanna<3Rhaegar in her post #28 above. That you choose to look at this outside the context of what the books tell us is, of course, up to you. 

The text tells us what Tywin did to make Tyrion participate. It also tells us about the nature of the father, and the father-son relationship. One should not, in my opinion, ignore the evidence the author gives us and construct a abstract choice for Tyrion to make. It assumes a thirteen year old in Tyrion's position and under his circumstances can just say "no." It assumes that contrary to all the evidence that shows that Tywin manufactured the rape in part to manipulate Tyrion into participation as the culmination of his "sharp lesson" that any other choice by Tyrion would be allowed. Context matters. Context is key to understanding.

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47 minutes ago, Megorova said:

What was the purpose of what Tywin did? -> He wanted to prevent Tyrion from revealing that son of Tywin Lannister humiliated him by getting married with a commoner, without even asking his father's permission. And Tyrion, marrying with a commoner, spoiled for Tywin future possibilities of arranging advantageous political marriage between Tyrion, last free member of House Lannister, and some important great House.

No, the purpose was to teach Tyrion a sharp lesson. He was never going to be able to arrange advantageous political marriages with Tyrion. He wanted to teach him first & foremost that he is not to be disobeyed, but also that no one will love him truly, ever. 

49 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If Tyrion's marriage became common knowledge, then, even if Tywin used his authority (as the Lord of Westerlands, and also the fact that Tyrion at that time was underaged, thus shouldn't have been able to get married without his parents' consent) to annul their marriage, the damage would have been already inflicted. Because who would want to marry their highborn lady-daughter to a guy, who previously was married with a commoner? T

No one wanted to marry their highborn daughter to Tyrion to begin with. Men are not held to the same standard as women are. Can you provide an example that gives precedence to your claim that no one will want to marry their highborn daughter to a guy who previously married a commoner? 

At any rate, I don't know who you think Tyrion could have told anyway. 

Let's say Tyrion tells the King he married a low-born orphan. Firstly he did it without his father's consent & is only 13. The marriage will be annulled & done with. There is just no reason to believe that Tyrion could have avoided this whole thing had he just brought Tysha home & marched in to the Rock & announced her as his lady wife. 

58 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And after those guards raped Tysha, there was no way for Tyrion to man up and announce that that woman was his wife. That would have been too humiliating for Tyrion, to say to people that he got married with a whore, and that a full room of Lannister guards had a go at her. He became unable to stand up for her, because he thought - what's the point? what happened happened, and it can't be undone. No matter what he will do, it won't make things better for Tysha. Thus, what's the point for revealing their marriage, if by that he will just hurt himself too.

We have no indication as to what the guards were or weren't told & it makes little difference. No matter what the guards were told the outcome would be the same. 

59 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The whole purpose of what Tywin did, was to stop Tyrion from revealing his marriage to other people.

No it wasn't. 

59 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Thus, if Tyrion officially introduced Tysha as his wife, at some gathering of House Lannister and their bannermen, shortly after they got married, then there was no way to revoke it. The damage to reputation of House Lannister would have been already inflicted, and would have been irrevocable, even if the marriage itself would have been later annuled. There would have been no point for Tywin to do anything to Tysha, if Tysha was acknowledged as a member of House Lannister.

Sure, if Tyrion had only announced his marriage in some gathering of people Tywin would have just said "Well, I really wanted to teach Tyrion a lesson but now that people know about his marriage, I guess I'll just have to let it be." No. Not a chance. 

We don't even know who knew or didn't know anyway. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

And the fact that now, years ago after that event, Tyrion told his story to Bronn, doesn't matter anymore. Because Tysha is long gone, maybe even dead. Eitherway it's not relevant anymore. Furthermore, since then, to defy his father, Tyrion did even worse things, that damaged his House's reputation, than a mere marriage with a commoner. His alcoholism and frolicing with whores is a common knowledge. No one wants their daughter to marry with Tyrion, so information about Tysha, even if Tyrion will reveal it, doesn't matter anymore.

It wasn't just Bronn & the fact that he told other people is an indication he could have told people earlier in his life also. This really just makes absolutely no sense to me. We may have to agree to disagree. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Read what I wrote above. There would have been no point anymore.

What I asked is who or what could have stopped him. The answer is no one & nothing. It's rather absurd to think that there would be no point to this lesson Tywin wants to teach Tyrion if only Tyrion had announced his marriage to other people. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

He became alcoholic years ago.

Oh yeah? When? What makes you say so? What evidence is there? 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Tywin would have never said it. Because that information would have damaged his and his House's reputation. The whole point of what was done to Tysha, was to prevent this information from getting out, at least then, when that information was relevant, before Tyrion inflected all that other damage on his House.

It was not done to prevent the information from getting out & besides Tywin could tell people whatever he wanted to tell them regardless of what Tyrion said. Tyrion could go tell everyone he married & Tywin could go tell them after that he was lying. 

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33 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Tywin and the Lannisters are mostly to blame.  One could say all share some blame.  Tysha was no stranger to westeros. Should she have known better?  I think so.  Tyrion was a young man but he's been educated from birth as a noble man. He should have known better too.  An early teen rapists?  Maybe.  

Tysha should have known better than to what? 

Tyrion should have known better than to what? 

Of course teen rapists exist. Of course Tysha was raped. The question is does Tyrion hold all the blame for his own actions? Or does he get some slack cut because he is 13 with a sadistic father? 

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39 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Tywin and the Lannisters are mostly to blame.  One could say all share some blame.  Tysha was no stranger to westeros. Should she have known better?  I think so.  Tyrion was a young man but he's been educated from birth as a noble man. He should have known better too.  An early teen rapists?  Maybe.  

What should Tysha have known better? Honestly, w/o some clarification this statement is more than a little disturbing.

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11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, the purpose was to teach Tyrion a sharp lesson. He was never going to be able to arrange advantageous political marriages with Tyrion. He wanted to teach him first & foremost that he is not to be disobeyed, but also that no one will love him truly, ever

On this I agree with you. Though for Tywin there was many reasons why he did what he did. Including for the future of House Lannister, not to damage their reputation, and to give a lesson to Tyrion, that to desobey his father, or to do anything without Tywin's concent will have serious repercussions for Tyrion. And also to make Tyrion to think that no one can ever love him for what or who he is. That the only value that he has and will ever have is that he is a Lannister, and that besides that, he will never have anything else. So he should do whatever he will be ordered to do, otherwise even that will be taken from him.

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Its a disgusting story

So for starters, Tywin ordered the rape of his son. (And tysha and a bunch of guards) Tyrion was near powerless, its evident that his father would have disowned him, like he so relishes,

Quote

Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore." And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled.

Having said that, despite his youth and his fathers manipulations, Tyrion raped and discarded his wife. 

Jaime too shares a mountain of blame 

18 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Or does he get some slack cut because he is 13 with a sadistic father? 

Slack from what, my perspective? Ok, but thats not saying anything, people are always telling me ive got a warped perception. Slack from Tyrions own perspective, certainly doesnt appear so. Slack from Tyshas? Shes probably dead

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14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Slack from what, my perspective? Ok, but thats not saying anything, people are always telling me ive got a warped perception. Slack from Tyrions own perspective, certainly doesnt appear so. Slack from Tyshas? Shes probably dead

haha I happen to like your perspective. No, I just mean slack from judgement in general. As in, maybe someone (me) is willing to disregard what blame Tyrion may hold in light of the fact that he is only 13 + all the other crap. 

No, Tyrion isn't cutting himself any slack now that he knows the truth. Tysha certainly shouldn't be expected to cut anyone slack. 

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5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. I agree with @SFDanny that fear was a motivation

Tyrion brings it up multiple times, fear is never used as an issue.

In fact his hatred of Jaime makes zero sense if Tyrion participated out of fear. Jaime convincing him would be inconsequential, yet Tyrion wants him dead for what he did.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

but also her being a whore. Like @frenin said he wasn't going to risk his father's wrath over a woman he believed betrayed him & is a whore. 

Did he or did he not risk his father's wrath by marrying her in the first place?

 

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

ETA: we really don't know what he did or didn't try either.

Yeah, we kind of do. He is pretty clear on why he did what he did.

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I'll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

 

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

As I said earlier we don't get the entire exchange verbatim.

No, but based on what we are told he did not do so out of fear. I am only going by the text on this one.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

He may have quietly done as he was told or he may have yelled & screamed & kicked. We just don't know. 

There is zero indication that he yelled and screamed and kicked. Can you quote where you think this is suggested?

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5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's not really true. We know he was fearful that's why he hid her. 

No, we know his father would not have approved of him marrying a peasant he had just met. There is zero indication he was scared of his safety over this. Do you think he was? Can you quote from Tyrion were this is suggested?

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