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Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Tysha - who is to blame?

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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Tyrion then is a child of 13.

Children of 13 have raped people. Are you seriously under the impression that they can't?

 Before we go further I need to know if you don't think 13-year-olds can rape or you are just starting off with a strawman argument?

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

And we’ve only heard one account of what happened, w/o the details.

Tyrion's actually brought it up multiple times, I've quoted them in my previous post. Read them, refresh your memory.

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

We never witnessed events first-hand to know any of the things you claim, namely, that he wasn’t forced, that he wasn’t threatened, and that he doesn’t fear the consequences he’d face if he defied Tywin.

Do you know why this is a bullshit argument from you? Because you sit in judgement of plenty of characters who we hear of there actions but don't see them.

We don't see Randyll Tarly threaten Sam.

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Also, did I mention he is a child of 13?

Yes, repeatedly.

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

To the bold, he sure does. But he does not tell Bronn to bring him whores at sword point

He does not have to. The teenage whore is not going to know any different, they are going to see a soldier come and demand her services.

Their society is fucked up.

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

as far as I recall, so not sure what’s the point you’re trying to make when you say he sends “armed men”.

He sends his armed guards to bring him whores. He has sex with them, like he had sex with Tysha, like he has sex with the slave at illyrio's and like he had sex with the Targaryen looking whore with scars on her back where she had been whipped by her pimps.

In our society there is still slavery in the western world in brothels throughout the US and Europe. Being a whore in the middle ages is going to have an even higher percentage of women forced into it. Tyrion fucked Tysha, someone he thought he loved because he was told she was a whore, he is hardly going to be asking if these other women are willing. He knows some of them were not as they could not hide their disgust.

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

The other little detail you failed to mention is that by then he is ~ 25 years old. 

eh? You clearly are missing my point.

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3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The "picture" I'm painting is taken straight from the books

No, it is not. We both know that.

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

and looking at this question in the context of all we know from the books. As to the idea that if Tyrion was so fearful he would have not married Tysha in the first place, it has already been answered by @Lyanna<3Rhaegar in her post #28 above.

No, it has not.

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

 

That you choose to look at this outside the context of what the books tell us is, of course, up to you. 

I've used the books. I've quoted from the books.

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The text tells us what Tywin did to make Tyrion participate.

It does? Then quote it.

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

 

It also tells us about the nature of the father, and the father-son relationship.

Does it? Then quote it?

We know that Tyrion has no issue with telling his father no. He is one of the few people able to do that.

 

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26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion brings it up multiple times, fear is never used as an issue.

He doesn't really say what his motivation was but I gather from the context clues that he would likely have been afraid of his father's wrath. 

27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

In fact his hatred of Jaime makes zero sense if Tyrion participated out of fear. Jaime convincing him would be inconsequential, yet Tyrion wants him dead for what he did.

Jaime lied to him regardless of Tyrion's reasons for participating. So he still has reason to be mad. It doesn't make a bit of sense to me that Jaime telling him she is a whore he paid for = Tyrion wasn't scared of his father's wrath. 

28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did he or did he not risk his father's wrath by marrying her in the first place?

Yeah, but so? Kids do things they aren't supposed to all the time but they are still worried about the consequences when they get caught. 

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, we kind of do. He is pretty clear on why he did what he did.

Those are his actions, yes. We know he did these things. That doesn't mean he didn't say or do anything he didn't site. There would have had to be some conversation right? He doesn't give us any of that. He doesn't say how he felt, what Tysha said/did, if he tried to protest against his father, if he cried when the guardsmen raped her or if he thought it was exactly what she deserved. 

31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, but based on what we are told he did not do so out of fear. I am only going by the text on this one.

Where does it say, in the text, his participation had nothing to do with fear of his father? 

31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is zero indication that he yelled and screamed and kicked. Can you quote where you think this is suggested?

LOL you know I don't think it's suggested because I specifically said "We don't know" I'm not saying it was suggested at all, I'm saying he might have said/done any number of things because we don't have the entire story. 

31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, we know his father would not have approved of him marrying a peasant he had just met. There is zero indication he was scared of his safety over this. Do you think he was? Can you quote from Tyrion were this is suggested?

No, I cannot provide a quote from Tyrion where he says he was scared of his father but yes I think he was & this is why: He is 13, he is no stranger to his father & knows right & well what he is capable of. He has likely experienced his father's consequences before as he is not one of the favored children, & he tries to hide the fact that he did this from his father, yes, because he knows his father will disapprove of him marrying a peasant. Why would he care if his father disapproved though if there were no consequences for doing so?  I'm placing myself in his situation & concluding that I would very scared of my father (if my father was Tywin) finding out what I had done. Maybe Tyrion wasn't scared at all & just simply felt guilty about doing something that his father wouldn't approve of but that doesn't really fit with who we know Tyrion & Tywin to be IMO. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We know that Tyrion has no issue with telling his father no. He is one of the few people able to do that.

I don't think this is accurate. I don't remember one time that Tyrion successfully tells Tywin no. He tries to tell him no when he is told to marry Sansa but in the end says yes. 

What he does is things he knows his father doesn't approve of & then tries to hide them. He doesn't stand up to him though. He doesn't tell him "Yes I will bring Shae to KL w/ me" He does bring her but he hides her. He wants to do what he wants to do but he obviously doesn't want to face his father's consequences or else he wouldn't bother hiding what he has done. 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He doesn't really say what his motivation was but I gather from the context clues that he would likely have been afraid of his father's wrath. 

Can you provide them.

Quote

Jaime lied to him regardless of Tyrion's reasons for participating. So he still has reason to be mad. It doesn't make a bit of sense to me that Jaime telling him she is a whore he paid for = Tyrion wasn't scared of his father's wrath. 

Tyrion is not just mad, he hates him, wants him dead, despite the fact that Jaime saved his life

Tyrion pictured how his sister's head might look up there, with tar in her golden hair and flies buzzing in and out of her mouth. Yes, and Jaime must have the spike beside her, he decided. No one must ever come between my brother and my sister.

I'm not sure if you are genuninly confused or just downplaying Tyrion's anger.

Quote

Yeah, but so? Kids do things they aren't supposed to all the time but they are still worried about the consequences when they get caught. 

If you are arguing, against Tyrion's own words, that Tyrion raped her out of fear don't you think it would be a good idea to be able to prove it?

Quote

Those are his actions, yes. We know he did these things. That doesn't mean he didn't say or do anything he didn't site.

Sure. If GRRM decided to change what he has wrote on the event then I'm perfectly okay with that. But right now Tyrion's events of what happened is that he willingly  raped her due to being aroused and thinking she was a whore. Not once in the four times he talks about it does he bring up fear.

I'm only going on the text.

Quote

 

There would have had to be some conversation right? He doesn't give us any of that. He doesn't say how he felt, what Tysha said/did, if he tried to protest against his father, if he cried when the guardsmen raped her or if he thought it was exactly what she deserved. 

eh? He says it was in his power to stop it.

I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

He does not suggest he did what he did out of fear. He thinks, rightly or wrongly, that he had choice in the matter.

Quote

Where does it say, in the text, his participation had nothing to do with fear of his father? 

In the quotes about him raping her because she was a whore and because he was aroused. Neither of those are to do with fear.

Quote

LOL you know I don't think it's suggested because I specifically said "We don't know" I'm not saying it was suggested at all,

We also don't know that he laughed at her, slapped her and told her how she deserved it. If someone claimed that happened I'd disagree with that as well as it is not suggested in the text.

I am only going by the text. I am not inventing motive like some are.

Quote

 

I'm saying he might have said/done any number of things because we don't have the entire story. 

No, you are being hugely charitable. You are not saying he did worse than what was suggested, only better.

Quote

No, I cannot provide a quote from Tyrion where he says he was scared of his father but yes I think he was & this is why: He is 13, he is no stranger to his father & knows right & well what he is capable of.

What does 13 year old Tyrion think he is capable of?

Why did he marry her in the first place if he was knew what he was capable of?

Why did he set her up in one of Tywin's properties if he knew what Tywin was capable of?

 

Quote

 

He has likely experienced his father's consequences

Such as what?

You realize what you are doing right? You are creating one fanfiction to support another fanfiction.

 

edit: Sorry, that was a rude way of putting it. My intention is not to offend. Let me know if this does and I will try and reword what I have said.

Quote

 

before as he is not one of the favored children, & he tries to hide the fact that he did this from his father, yes, because he knows his father will disapprove of him marrying a peasant. Why would he care if his father disapproved though if there were no consequences for doing so?

 

 No one has claimed there would be no consequences. Egg, one of the nicest guys we have met, had consequences for his heir when he married a peasant.

There being consequences does not mean something dire or that Tyrion was fearful of them. Clearly he was not.

Quote

 

  I'm placing myself in his situation & concluding that I would very scared of my father (if my father was Tywin) finding out what I had done.

What had Tywin done to Tyrion before that? What had he done to him after that?

 

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think this is accurate.

It actually is. The first time we see father and son together Tyrion is refusing to do what Tywin asked

"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork."
Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere."
 
Tyrion has got no problem with disobeying his father. He'd never have brought Shae, someone he had just met, if that was the case.
Quote

 

I don't remember one time that Tyrion successfully tells Tywin no.

So now that I have provided evidence that he has will this altered your opinion?

Quote

 

He tries to tell him no when he is told to marry Sansa but in the end says yes. 

When Kevan and Tywin sell him on the prospect. Marrying the heiress of the North excites Tyrion.

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill.

He is happy to say no. Unlike Cersei, Tywin has to convince Tyrion to say yes.

Quote

What he does is things he knows his father doesn't approve of & then tries to hide them. He doesn't stand up to him though.

Yeah, he does. Not only does he stand up to him, but he takes the piss out of him infront of other council members.

Tyrion smiled crookedly. "Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead."

"I had hoped you might have more to offer us than japes, Tyrion," Lord Tywin Lannister said.

Tyrion has not shown any indication that he fears his father. He even seems pissed when Tywin is back as Hand.

"That's a handsome chain," Tyrion said. Though it looked better on me.
Lord Tywin ignored the sally. "You had best be seated. Is it wise for you to be out of your sickbed?"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why are you here in the city, Father?" he asked. "Shouldn't you be off fighting Lord Stannis or Robb Stark or someone?" And the sooner the better.

Tyrion talks to Tywin in a way that no one, not his brother or other children do.

Quote

 

He doesn't tell him "Yes I will bring Shae to KL w/ me" He does bring her but he hides her.

He has just met Shae. How can you argue he is scared of his father when Tywin makes a pretty reasonable request after making him Hand and he still ignores it. This does not suggest fear.

Quote

 

He wants to do what he wants to do but he obviously doesn't want to face his father's consequences or else he wouldn't bother hiding what he has done. 

So clearly he does not think the consequences are that high.

Why not put yourself in Tyrion's shoes again. Would you bring a whore to Kings Landing, one you had just met, when Tywin specifically told you not to?

 

edit: sorry if my tone sounds combative. It is not intentional. I edited a few things as rereading some of what I wrote came off blunter than I intended.

Edited by Bernie Mac

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44 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Can you provide them

Yeah, the fact that Tyrion is a 13 year old child of a ruthless man & has attempted to hide what he did from him, coupled with the fact that he has been subjected to an ordeal that is clearly traumatic for him lead me to believe he would have been fearful of his father's repercussions. 

47 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion is not just mad, he hates him, wants him dead, despite the fact that Jaime saved his life

Right, & I'm saying he has reason to hate him for the lie. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not sure if you are genuninly confused or just downplaying Tyrion's anger

Well, tbh I think I may have been confused about what exactly you are arguing. I was debating the assertion that Tyrion hating Jaime means he wasn't afraid of Tywin's wrath. Both things can be true. 

After reading your posts again I think maybe what you are saying is that Tyrion's reason for hating Jaime is directly related to the fact that Jaime convinced him his wife was a whore & that this gave Tyrion the motivation or justification in his own head for raping her? 

There is probably something to that. He may hate him for the lie alone but it makes sense that if he had not raped her because of this knowledge, say he just divorced or left her, that he wouldn't be as angry or hate him as much. 

I can agree with that. 

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

If you are arguing, against Tyrion's own words, that Tyrion raped her out of fear don't you think it would be a good idea to be able to prove it?

I'm not arguing against his words. You said he wasn't fearful of Tywin as evidenced by him doing something Tywin would disapprove of to begin with. I said kids do things all the time they know they aren't supposed to do but they are still worried about the consequences when they get caught. 

56 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. If GRRM decided to change what he has wrote on the event then I'm perfectly okay with that. But right now Tyrion's events of what happened is that he willingly  raped her due to being aroused and thinking she was a whore. Not once in the four times he talks about it does he bring up fear

 

56 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm only going on the text

I agree you are only going on the text, what I disagree with is what the text means. I'll concede, in light of what I believe I misunderstood earlier, that there is some indication that Tyrion at least believes he could have refused. And I think I owe you an apology as well because I distinctly remember another conversation where you said Tyrion was tricked into raping her & I vehemently argued that wasn't the case. I think I understand better what you meant by that now & don't really disagree with the fact that he was tricked into raping her - I'm sorry. 

I don't think GRRM would have to change what he wrote to add this in though. I think he could simply add in later that Tyrion initially refused or protested. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? He says it was in his power to stop it

He does seem to think that. I don't think he could have stopped it, but possibly there is something he could have done that I'm not aware of. 

I do not think there is one chance that he could have successfully stopped this by ordering the guardsmen. This wasn't something you said, it was another poster, I'm just throwing that out there. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He does not suggest he did what he did out of fear. He thinks, rightly or wrongly, that he had choice in the matter.

He doesn't, you're right. It makes sense to me that he would be fearful of such barbaric consequences, but maybe it is just as you say & he believed he had a choice, whether he truly did or not. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

We also don't know that he laughed at her, slapped her and told her how she deserved it. If someone claimed that happened I'd disagree with that as well as it is not suggested in the text

Indeed. Neither thing is suggested in the text. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, you are being hugely charitable. You are not saying he did worse than what was suggested, only better.

Fair enough. I did also mention that we don't know if he thought she got exactly what she deserved. 

My point is I don't think we have the entire story, or rather we don't have all the details of the story. I don't think it's impossible that he did protest. Although, it does seem less likely to me now if I believe the reason for his deep seeded hatred of Jaime. To protest given that context doesn't make a lot of sense. 

I can agree his motivation for raping her was probably not out of fear, so I'm not going to keep quoting those parts. 

I would like to clarify one thing though, I don't think it's the equivalent to fan-fic to say Tyrion has likely experienced Tywin's wrath before. We don't have any instances of such but it makes sense that growing up with someone like Tywin, being hated by someone like Tywin, that Tyrion would have experienced his wrath at some point or another, no? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

It actually is. The first time we see father and son together Tyrion is refusing to do what Tywin asked

"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork."
Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere."
 
Tyrion has got no problem with disobeying his father. He'd never have brought Shae, someone he had just met, if that was the case.

So now that I have provided evidence that he has will this altered your opinion?

When Kevan and Tywin sell him on the prospect. Marrying the heiress of the North excites Tyrion.

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill.

He is happy to say no. Unlike Cersei, Tywin has to convince Tyrion to say yes.

Yeah, he does. Not only does he stand up to him, but he takes the piss out of him infront of other council members.

Tyrion smiled crookedly. "Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead."

"I had hoped you might have more to offer us than japes, Tyrion," Lord Tywin Lannister said.

Tyrion has not shown any indication that he fears his father. He even seems pissed when Tywin is back as Hand.

"That's a handsome chain," Tyrion said. Though it looked better on me.
Lord Tywin ignored the sally. "You had best be seated. Is it wise for you to be out of your sickbed?"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why are you here in the city, Father?" he asked. "Shouldn't you be off fighting Lord Stannis or Robb Stark or someone?" And the sooner the better.

Tyrion talks to Tywin in a way that no one, not his brother or other children do.

He has just met Shae. How can you argue he is scared of his father when Tywin makes a pretty reasonable request after making him Hand and he still ignores it. This does not suggest fear.

So clearly he does not think the consequences are that high.

Why not put yourself in Tyrion's shoes again. Would you bring a whore to Kings Landing, one you had just met, when Tywin specifically told you not to?

 

edit: sorry if my tone sounds combative. It is not intentional. I edited a few things as rereading some of what I wrote came off blunter than I intended.

It seems pretty futile to continue arguing this point when I've changed my mind on the matter but didn't want you to think I'm ignoring it. 

Here's a question though; do you think Tyrion should be judged as harshly as someone who might rape someone under circumstances which are not this extenuating? For instance, is he the same as a hypothetical 13 year old in universe that is walking down the road, sees a low-born girl, & takes her? 

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12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I absolutely agree with the bolded part. Which really is the main point of Tywin's lie. But the moment Tywin creates the lie, everything he does is designed to psychologically manipulate Tyrion through every step he takes so he doesn't believe the truth and won't refuse. Could Tyrion have uttered the word "no"? Absolutely. But that action is forestalled by everything Tywin does.

Let me disagree here slightly. I don't think fear of Tywin is the main factor in Tyrion's "choice" to do as Tywin tells him and go last in Tysha's rape. That fear is always there because Tyrion knows his father and knows what the dangers are if he crosses him. But what Tywin successfully does to Tyrion is, I think, not so much respond out of fear, but to respond out of the humiliation and degradation he feels by the actions Tywin takes. It is all designed to, among other things, to rub Tyrion's nose in the supposed fact he isn't worthy or capable of being loved or desired. Tyrion has to accept the "fact" Tysha didn't love him. That she was a whore who was paid to fake her love for him and her desire for him. When Tyrion participates in what really was a gang rape, he accepts not only the lie Tywin has told him about Tysha, but what Tywin tells him about himself. It is the same message Tywin has always told his youngest son. He is unworthy of love. Tyrion is accepting his father's judgement not only about Tysha, but about him.

This. I’d imagine Tywin would never want something like that to happen again and he probably told Tyrion something along the lines of him being unlovable because he was a dwarf.

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If I married someone when I was 13, I'd be worried that my father would find out. Sure, it's illegal in our world, but if it wasn't, the obvious repercussion would be the end of the marriage. My father is no Tywin Lannister, yet the worry would remain.

Tyrion being worried that his father would find out about his marriage doesn't imply that Tyrion had been punished in some harsh manner by his father. Any nobleman would take steps to abolish their 13 year old's marriage to a commoner.

As to the rest of it, it's impossible to say, I think. It's made relatively clear that Tyrion doesn't remember the situation properly:

He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been. You would think he might remember that, but no. A dozen? A score? A hundred? He could not say. 

Unless we get a clearer picture of what actually happened (which is unlikely), I don't think we could say for certain.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I married someone when I was 13, I'd be worried that my father would find out. Sure, it's illegal in our world, but if it wasn't, the obvious repercussion would be the end of the marriage. My father is no Tywin Lannister, yet the worry would remain

Sure, and if your father was Tywin Lannister you would probably be more worried right?

8 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Tyrion being worried that his father would find out about his marriage doesn't imply that Tyrion had been punished in some harsh manner by his father. Any nobleman would take steps to abolish their 13 year old's marriage to a commoner

Yeah for sure but don't you think it's unlikely that Tyrion has never been harshly punished by his father given that we know Tywin's character & know he hates Tyrion? I agree he has not been punished this harshly prior to this but he likely has a good idea what Tywin is capable of & the lengths he will go to.

8 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

As to the rest of it, it's impossible to say, I think. It's made relatively clear that Tyrion doesn't remember the situation properly:

He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been. You would think he might remember that, but no. A dozen? A score? A hundred? He could not say

Agreed. 

8 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Unless we get a clearer picture of what actually happened (which is unlikely), I don't think we could say for certain

Right so I'm basing my argument that Tyrion is not to blame on the fact that Tywin is in control of this situation & Tyrion is a child. He has no means by which to stop it that I can think of, although there is some indication he believes he might. I think his quotes are more a means to show his guilt in the matter rather than him truly thinking he could have stopped it - irt the guardsmen. 

Now, his own actions are another story. I still believe he would not have been able to simply refuse & walk away but we don't have any indication he tried to do that anyway. He seems to have, as pointed out by Bernie Mac, 'willingly' raped her. I put that in quotes because even though he may have done as he was bid, without much of or any fight, he has still been manipulated to the fullest extent here. He holds blame for raping her - you don't get a pass for that just because you may have been manipulated into believing it was an ok thing to do & it is never an ok thing to do, even to a prostitute/whore. 

I do think we have to take into consideration the fact that his young age makes him more susceptible to manipulation though. They lied to him, broke his heart, and then told him to take part in this ordeal that he clearly doesn't think fondly of. This is clearly a traumatic event for him. 

Given all that, I don't think he (at that point) is a sadistic, evil, rapist but a confused, traumatized, manipulated child. That doesn't absolve him from any blame IMO but does absolve him from some. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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10 hours ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes said:

This. I’d imagine Tywin would never want something like that to happen again and he probably told Tyrion something along the lines of him being unlovable because he was a dwarf.

I agree & I don't think we can begin to unravel the mess that is Tyrion's psyche. This event likely formed much of his decisions & actions for the rest of his years. 

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Posted (edited)

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." - Anatole France.

Context is key to understanding. The context that pushes the starving homeless to sleep under bridges, to beg, and to steal is far different to those that push the rich to make the choices they make.

We can judge the thirteen year old Tyrion's choice to unknowingly to participate in what is in reality the rape of his wife by the context we are given by the author or we can set up a contextless choice and say he could have just said "no." Yes, just as the rich often choose to not steal bread or sleep under bridges, so too we can compare Tyrion's choice to not stand up to his father when Tywin wants him to go last and give Tysha her his gold piece devoid of any context. After all we all are responsible for the choices we make, right? Wrong. Evaluating choices without understanding the context makes such evaluations meaningless. In this case we have to evaluate Tyrion's choice in the context of evidence which shows the history of the events, who orchestrated those events, the understanding Tyrion had during the events, the power structure of Westerosi society and how that is reflected between father and son, and the history of cruelty, sadism, and brutality we know from Tywin in general and in particular how that is reflected in his relationship with his youngest son. Without such an evaluation of the evidence we get garbage.

But, unfortunately you, @Bernie Mac take this simple truth one step further. In your case, you would have us use post hoc quotes which only show the guilt Tyrion feels after he learns what he believed was true, was, in fact, an elaborate lie enacted by his father and told to him by his brother. In short, you use evidence from the books to create a false context. You would have us judge Tyrion's choice by this false context. It doesn't work, no matter how many times you use the post hoc quotes. This is a point I made in response to the quotes you used the first time you posted them here. The criticism is still valid.

On 3/27/2020 at 12:25 PM, Bernie Mac said:

No, it is not. We both know that.

What I know is I posted the most relevant quotes to this question here and here. The evidence in these quotes are vital to understanding the answer we can reach. These are indeed, as I said, quotes straight out of the books. What you think you know, I can't answer for. Only you can do that.

On 3/27/2020 at 12:25 PM, Bernie Mac said:

No, it has not.

Once again then, the fact Tyrion had 

Quote

"set her up in a cottage of her own, and for a fortnight we played at being man and wife. And then the septon sobered and confessed all to my lord father" ( AGoT 483)

shows a certain amount of fear on Tyrion's part about what his father's reaction to his wedding would be. He keeps it secret from Lord Tywin based on the fear of his reaction. Clearly Tyrion's fear is justified because when Lord Tywin finds out, he destroys his marriage. An example of the nature of the father/son relationship and the role Tywin's power over Tyrion's life plays in it.

Your argument here sets up a false either/or choice. Is there fear on Tyrion's part about his father? Or does Tyrion show no fear by defying his father. The answer is both fear and defiance at times, mixed with many other things like almost constant humiliation and degradation.

 

On 3/27/2020 at 12:25 PM, Bernie Mac said:

I've used the books. I've quoted from the books.

Yes, you have, and you've quoted the books correctly. But your post hoc quotes don't show what you say they do. The problem is in your analysis.

 

On 3/27/2020 at 12:25 PM, Bernie Mac said:

It does? Then quote it.

I have.

For instance, from the quote from Jaime's confession of the lie he told Tyrion about Tysha being a whore and the marriage fake, we learn that Tywin is the source of the lie and that he commands Jaime to tell it.

We also have Tyrion's account of the rape (although at the time he doesn't believe it is that) which establishes that it is Tywin who is responsible for bringing Tysha into the barracks and giving her to the guardsmen for their sexual use. These are men who have sworn their services to the Lord of Casterly Rock. Disobedience can mean death. We know from this account that Tywin is almost certainly the source of the silver piece each guardsmen gives Tysha, and absolutely certain confirmation that he is the source of Tyrion's gold coin. We know from this account that it Tywin who sits Tyrion down in the barracks corner to watch the sexual attack. We also know it is Tywin who "had" Tyrion go last.

The text tells us who orchestrates this all. The context is one in which Tywin has all the power of the High Lord of Casterly Rock, and Tyrion is a thirteen year old boy who is totally dependent on his father's whims. Without understanding that context the discussion about whether or not  Tyrion has the ability to defy his father is absurd. He has done so it the past, and he does so again in the future, but everything Tywin has done to destroy the marriage is designed to force Tyrion to accept Tywin's lie. Yes, Tyrion has the ability to utter the word "no." But to think he will or should have done so rips the question out of the context of the books.

 

On 3/27/2020 at 12:25 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Does it? Then quote it?

We know that Tyrion has no issue with telling his father no. He is one of the few people able to do that.

 

Here again you draw the wrong conclusion. That Tyrion does defy his father later in life does not mean he has "no issue" in doing so. Each incident has to be looked at as its own case. But you want a quote showing the nature of their relationship. Let me leave you with a very long one that is critical for any understanding. Not that this is the only one needed, but it is, perhaps, the best at laying out the "issues" and power relationship between father and son.

 

Quote

"What do I want, you ask? I'll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want  Casterly Rock."

His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know this as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as the were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing the proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither the gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

"My whorehouse?" The dawn broke, Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, "Cersei told you about Alayaya."

"Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the name of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?"

"Tysha." He spat out the answer, defiant.

"And that camp follower on the Green Fork?"

"Why do you care?" he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae's name in his presence.

"I don't. No more than I care if they live or die."

"It was you who had Yaya whipped." It was not a question.

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie."

Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."

"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"

"You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffery hasn't tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you're so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen ... why would I harm Tommen? He's a good lad, and mine own blood."

"As was your mother." Lord Tywin rose abruptly to tower over his dwarf son. "Go back to your bed, Tyrion, and speak no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your service and station. And make no mistake - this was the last time I will suffer you to bring shame onto House Lannister. You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I'll hang." (ASoS 52-53) bold emphasis added

 

Edited by SFDanny

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13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, and if your father was Tywin Lannister you would probably be more worried right?

Only should I have been punished in some spectacular way before. What someone does to their enemies is invariably different than what someone does to their family, even the lowest of their family.

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure but don't you think it's unlikely that Tyrion has never been harshly punished by his father given that we know Tywin's character & know he hates Tyrion?

Eh, I don't know. Tywin obviously holds no love for Tyrion, and I imagine that Tyrion knew that at the time. But during the books, it's alway seems to be the Tysha situation that Tywin brings up, in regards to hating Tyrion.

"My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore."

"Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?"

I always got the feeling that while he hated Tyrion for killing Joanna, it was marrying Tysha that really set Tywin against him, because it was too reminiscent of Tytos.

Even when Tyrion learned his little capers as a youth, it looks like Tywin simply commanded he stop. I don't recall any punishment, harsh or otherwise.

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right so I'm basing my argument that Tyrion is not to blame on the fact that Tywin is in control of this situation & Tyrion is a child. He has no means by which to stop it that I can think of, although there is some indication he believes he might. I think his quotes are more a means to show his guilt in the matter rather than him truly thinking he could have stopped it - irt the guardsmen. 

I don't see any way he could have stopped the guardsmen. His only possible guilt was when he raped her himself. The rest was Tywin's doing, and the guards.

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Now, his own actions are another story. I still believe he would not have been able to simply refuse & walk away but we don't have any indication he tried to do that anyway. He seems to have, as pointed out by Bernie Mac, 'willingly' raped her. I put that in quotes because even though he may have done as he was bid, without much of or any fight, he has still been manipulated to the fullest extent here. He holds blame for raping her - you don't get a pass for that just because you may have been manipulated into believing it was an ok thing to do & it is never an ok thing to do, even to a prostitute/whore. 

It's a tough situation to be in, for sure. If you threaten a persons life, and force them to kill someone, well, that someone is still dead. So who is to blame? Obviously, the person threatening the killer. But could you consider the one committing the murder to merely be the weapon used against the victim? At the end of the day, there is still thought, intelligence and choice from that person, which no weapon has. Should that person have refused, knowing it would mean their own life?

You cannot sign a document under duress, and a threat on your life certainly counts for duress. The document is considered invalid, regardless of the signer's actual opinion or desire. There's not really another victim in that situation, though. But if one cannot sign a document or swear an oath under duress, can one commit murder under duress? Well... yes, I'd say so. Someone being threatened will hardly bring succor to the victim and their family.

But back to the Tysha situation, there's one question: did Tywin threaten Tyrion (or have some implied threat), or did he merely manipulate him into thinking it was right(or that she had it coming, etc.)? In the former, Tyrion raped Tysha because he wanted to avoid some harm to himself. Which could easily be reworded as "Tyrion raped Tysha for selfish reasons". It's hardly laudable. It the latter, he raped her because he (at least believed he) wanted to. Which is obviously awful.

Either way, Tyrion is a victim here, certainly, but I don't think that absolves him of his guilt. Certainly not all of it. If you steal because you're starving, you're still a thief. If you rape because you're threatened, you're still a rapist.

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Given all that, I don't think he (at that point) is a sadistic, evil, rapist but a confused, traumatized, manipulated child. That doesn't absolve him from any blame IMO but does absolve him from some. 

Yeah, I think we're essentially in agreement.

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48 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Only should I have been punished in some spectacular way before. What someone does to their enemies is invariably different than what someone does to their family, even the lowest of their family

Yeah, I agree it would be different with an enemy. But I just find it highly unlikely Tywin never punished Tyrion prior to this. 

50 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Eh, I don't know. Tywin obviously holds no love for Tyrion, and I imagine that Tyrion knew that at the time. But during the books, it's alway seems to be the Tysha situation that Tywin brings up, in regards to hating Tyrion

Yeah, it would've been the most harsh punishment he received from his father surely. I think he would likely have punished him for something previously though. At any rate, my original assertion was that Tyrion did as he was bid out of fear of his father. While I still think it likely he was fearful of him, I've since changed my mind as to his motive behind doing as he was told. 

52 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't see any way he could have stopped the guardsmen. His only possible guilt was when he raped her himself. The rest was Tywin's doing, and the guards

I agree he couldn't have stopped the guardsmen but he seems to feel guilt for that as well. He says 'I'm sorry I helped them rape you, I'm sorry I let them rape you' something to that affect. 

56 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

It's a tough situation to be in, for sure. If you threaten a persons life, and force them to kill someone, well, that someone is still dead. So who is to blame? Obviously, the person threatening the killer. But could you consider the one committing the murder to merely be the weapon used against the victim? At the end of the day, there is still thought, intelligence and choice from that person, which no weapon has. Should that person have refused, knowing it would mean their own life?

Tough indeed. I don't know the answer to that & think a decision would have to be made by the individual at hand. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable judging someone who did something bad, but only to save their own life. 

57 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

You cannot sign a document under duress, and a threat on your life certainly counts for duress. The document is considered invalid, regardless of the signer's actual opinion or desire. There's not really another victim in that situation, though. But if one cannot sign a document or swear an oath under duress, can one commit murder under duress? Well... yes, I'd say so. Someone being threatened will hardly bring succor to the victim and their family

Yeah, I mean they can definitely commit murder. I think the question is do they hold the blame for that murder. I just don't know. 

59 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

But back to the Tysha situation, there's one question: did Tywin threaten Tyrion (or have some implied threat), or did he merely manipulate him into thinking it was right(or that she had it coming, etc.)? In the former, Tyrion raped Tysha because he wanted to avoid some harm to himself. Which could easily be reworded as "Tyrion raped Tysha for selfish reasons". It's hardly laudable. It the latter, he raped her because he (at least believed he) wanted to. Which is obviously awful.

Either way, Tyrion is a victim here, certainly, but I don't think that absolves him of his guilt. Certainly not all of it. If you steal because you're starving, you're still a thief. If you rape because you're threatened, you're still a rapist

For sure. I don't think, at least at this point, he was threatened with his life. And if it's also true he wasn't particularly fearful of his father, then he did it willingly. Manipulated & lied to, under duress of sorts, but willingly. 

1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yeah, I think we're essentially in agreement

:cheers:

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Posted (edited)

I just read the first page and a half before commenting, and did not see this possibility brought up. Could Tywin have threatened to have Tysha killed if Tyrion did not go along?

Edited by Travis

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On 3/26/2020 at 1:59 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

In light of some recent, very touchy subject threads, that we have been able to mostly discuss civilly & peacefully - and because it has been brought up in another thread very recently, I would like to touch on this subject. 

When we first hear the tale of Tyrion & Tysha, Tyrion & Bronn are sitting around a fire, waiting for the clansmen to attack them. Tyrion starts to whistle a tune & asks Bronn if he has heard it before.

              "You hear it here and there, in inns and whore-houses."

              "Myrish. 'The Seasons of My Love.' Sweet and sad, if you understand the words. The first girl I ever bedded used to sing it, and I've never been able to put it out of my head." Tyrion gazed up at the sky. It was a clear cold night and the stars shone down upon the mountains as bright and merciless as truth. "I met her on a night like this," he heard himself saying. "Jaime and I were riding back from Lannisport when we heard a scream, and she came running out into the road with two men dogging her heels, shouting threats. My brother unsheathed his sword and went after them, while I dismounted to protect the girl. She was scarcely a year older than I was, dark-haired, slender, with a face that would break your heart. It certainly broke mine. Low-born, half-starved, unwashed... yet  lovely. They'd torn the rags she was wearing half off her back, so I wrapped her in my cloak while Jaime chased the men into the woods. By the time he came trotting back, I'd gotten a name out of her, and a story. She was a crofter's child, orphaned when her father died of fever, on her way to... well, nowhere, really.

             "Jaime was all in a lather to hunt down the men. It was not often outlaws dared prey on travelers so near to Casterly Rock, and he took it as an insult. The girl was too frightened to send off by herself, though, so I offered to take her to the closest inn and feed her while my brother rode back to the Rock for help. 

           "She was hungrier than I would have believed. We finished two whole chickens and part of a third, and drank a flagon of wine, talking. I was only thirteen, and the wine went to my head, I fear. The next thing I knew, I was sharing her bed. If she was shy, I was shyer. I'll never know where I found the courage. When I broke her maidenhead, she wept, but afterward she kissed me and sang her little song, and by morning I was in love"

I think we all know this account. A few key things - Tyrion was only 13 & Tysha only scarcely older. They were both shy in bed. Tyrion broke her maidenhead & then admits to falling in love. 

                "You?" Bronn's voice was amused.

               "Absurd, isn't it?" Tyrion began to whistle the song again. "I married her," he finally admitted. 

              "A Lannister of Casterly Rock wed to a crofter's daughter," Bronn said. "How did you manage that?"

               "Oh, you'd be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon. I dared not bring my bride home to Casterly Rock, so I set her up in a cottage of her own, and for a fortnight we played at being man and wife. And then the septon sobered and confessed all to my lord father." 

I think it goes without saying that this experience has changed Tyrion immensely but just to note, Bronn is shocked that someone like Tyrion would have fallen in love so easily. Also of note: He dared not bring her home to Casterly Rock. He doesn't say what it is his father would have done but clearly there were expected repercussions. Also, we don't know exactly what lies Tyrion told the septon, I don't know if the lies are important, just noting that we don't know what lies there were. 

              "Tyrion was surprised at how desolate it made him feel to say it, even after all these years. Perhaps he was just tired. "That was the end of my marriage." 

             "He sent the girl away?"

            "He did better than that," Tyrion said. "First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time. 

              "After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she..." The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. "Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more."

          After a time he heard the noise again, the rasp of steel on stone as Bronn sharpened his sword. "Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me."

        Tyrion swung around to face him. "You may get the chance one day. Remember what I told you. A Lannister always pays his debts." He yawned. "I think I will try and sleep. Wake me if we're about to die."

Alright. I don't think anyone questions that Tysha was raped & that's not the topic of the thread. What I'm interested in is how much, if any, is Tyrion to blame here? To me the language makes it very clear who is in charge here - Tywin brought Tysha in, gave her to his guards, sat Tyrion in the corner & bade him watch, had him go last. Plus the fact that Tyrion is only 13 & not a man in his own right, even in universe, spells out to me pretty clear that Tyrion didn't have much choice in the matter. Bronn seems to understand right & well that this was something done to Tyrion & not something Tyrion willingly participated in. 

After this Tysha is mentioned repeatedly by Tyrion. Usually, as a reminder to himself to not let his guard down in regards to Shae & his feelings. Sometimes he has fond memories, occasionally he dreams of her. Eventually his brother tells him the truth of the matter - Tysha was not a whore, but a crofter's daughter, in love with Tyrion, just as she seemed. Tyrion kills Tywin & Shae & spends the next umpteen chapters asking where whores go?? 

There are some more quotes to consider: 

He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been. You would think he might remember that, but no. A dozen? A score? A hundred? He could not say. They had all been grown men, tall and strong … though all men were tall to a dwarf of thirteen years. Tysha knew their number. Each of them had given her a silver stag, so she would only need to count the coins. A silver for each and a gold for me. His father had insisted that he pay her too. A Lannister always pays his debts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I'll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

The first quote seems to reaffirm Tywin is in charge here. I've seen it argued the other three quotes mean that Tyrion could have stopped the situation, or the least, he thinks he could have. That isn't how I read them. 

For the first quote, I don't think he is truly saying he helped the guards men - what help would the guardsmen need from him? He is acknowledging his own participation in the incident. As in he, along with, the guards men, raped her. 

For the second again, I don't think he truly believes he let them rape her. That implies that had he not let them, they wouldn't have. We have already established that Tywin is in control here. The guardsmen are not going to disobey a command given to them by Tywin just because Tyrion says so. I think this is more guilt talking. He is saying he let them rape her in the same way a parent might say "I let my child get hurt" or a man might say "I let the home invaders beat up my wife." Not because the parent hurt the child or the man participated in beating up his wife, but because they did not stop it, could not stop it, when it would be considered their job to do so. It is a parent's job to protect their child, a man's job to protect his wife & having failed in that job they feel guilty. 

The last quote has more to unpack & more unknowns I think. Firstly - I should have defied him. Well, could he have defied him? We don't really know. We don't know how Tywin made Tyrion participate, what threats may or may not have been used etc. I do think it's safe to say Tywin didn't merely suggest to Tyrion for him to watch a bunch of guardsmen rape his wife & then for him to do so also, even believing she is a whore. This is clearly a traumatic situation for Tyrion & he does not think of it fondly. I think there would have to be more force involved than a mere suggestion or question. But was it a command with nothing else? No threats, no "if you don't"s? Or did Tywin make it perfectly clear to Tyrion what would happen if he didn't obey his command? I'm not sure & I don't think we can say for certain. 

"But my cock betrayed me" so Tyrion didn't want to rape Tysha, didn't want to have sex with her even but became aroused anyway. This is not something really within his control, he is a 13 year old boy with hormones going wild. But he feels as if he should have controlled it & I think this was evidence to him (becoming aroused) that he was the monster his father & sister say he is. He is rather self-loathing all through the books, but especially the darker he gets. 

All of this information leads me to believe he is not responsible for what happened to Tysha. What blame does he hold for his own actions towards Tysha? He certainly raped her. I think being 13, just being told his wife is actually a whore, being made to witness this horrific event, coupled with the fact that Tywin is not a man to disobey lightly brings me to the conclusion that he isn't really responsible here. This isn't really his fault. Certainly, more information could either further that point or change it, but as it stands that's how I feel on the matter. 

What are your thoughts? 

 

Tyrion took her too.  End of story.  Coming from a man here.  He knew damn well his father wouldn't kill him if he said no.

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1 hour ago, Travis said:

I just read the first page and a half before commenting, and did not see this possibility brought up. Could Tywin have threatened to have Tysha killed if Tyrion did not go along?

He certainly could have. He could have threatened any number of things. I think Tyrion knew Tywin well enough to know a refusal would not go unpunished, however, I think he did it without too much protest because he believed her to be a whore. He was manipulated & lied to, broken hearted & likely fearful, but in the end did as he was told. 

 

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57 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Tyrion took her too.  End of story.  Coming from a man here.  He knew damn well his father wouldn't kill him if he said no.

Lol! Well I don't see how "being a man" makes your opinion on the subject any better than anyone elses but I don't think anyone suggested Tyrion thought Tywin was going to kill him anyway. 

Clearly, some of us think there are things that are worth discussing, if you don't, that's ok. Thankfully, members are required to post on threads they don't find worth talking about. 

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