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Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Tysha - who is to blame?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Lol! Well I don't see how "being a man" makes your opinion on the subject any better than anyone elses but I don't think anyone suggested Tyrion thought Tywin was going to kill him anyway. 

Clearly, some of us think there are things that are worth discussing, if you don't, that's ok. Thankfully, members are required to post on threads they don't find worth talking about. 

I did not mean to imply it made my opinion more important. The fact that you took it that way says a lot about you.

At the University I am studying at it is customary to identify your sex, ethnicity, and sexual orientation when talking about such things.  I simply carried that over because it is what I'm used to.  There is really no need to insult me for having a different custom than you do.

Edited by aryagonnakill#2

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5 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I did not mean to imply it made my opinion more important. The fact that you took it that way says a lot about you.

Does it? What does it say about me?

What did you mean to imply by stating "coming from a man"? 

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22 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

At the University I am studying at it is customary to identify your sex, ethnicity, and sexual orientation when talking about such things.  I simply carried that over because it is what I'm used to.  There is really no need to insult me for having a different custom than you do.

How have I insulted you? Whether that's the way you meant it or not, I think it was a fair assumption. There was no way for me to know what is customary at your university. 

You said "The fact that you took it that way says a lot about you" Was that not meant to be an insult? It hasn't offended me but I am curious to know what it says about me. 

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OP

Its completely Tywin fault. He is threatening Tyrion and holds all the power in that situation. Forcing your own son to rape a woman whilst you watch to make a point and assert that you’re in charge is borderline insane. Tyrion is a victim in that situation as there’s very little stopping Tywin ordering his men to kill Tyrion on the spot.

What breaks Tyrion is that he had convinced himself that what Jamie told him was correct. To say that Tyrion was naive and thought that she actually loved him. When actually that’s exactly what happened, to Tyrion of all people, and that gets taken away from him; by his own father, who intends to disinherit him anyway. I don’t think George is casting a shadow on Tyrion here. He has this take on what happened to make this revelation cast it in a much harsher light. 

Still I don’t understand how Tyrion was able to even interact with Tywin after this; even if he thought she was whore.

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2 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

OP

Its completely Tywin fault. He is threatening Tyrion and holds all the power in that situation. Forcing your own son to rape a woman whilst you watch to make a point and assert that you’re in charge is borderline insane. Tyrion is a victim in that situation as there’s very little stopping Tywin ordering his men to kill Tyrion on the spot.

What breaks Tyrion is that he had convinced himself that what Jamie told him was correct. To say that Tyrion was naive and thought that she actually loved him. When actually that’s exactly what happened, to Tyrion of all people, and that gets taken away from him; by his own father, who intends to disinherit him anyway. I don’t think George is casting a shadow on Tyrion here. He has this take on what happened to make this revelation cast it in a much harsher light. 

Still I don’t understand how Tyrion was able to even interact with Tywin after this; even if he thought she was whore.

I agree. 

Ugh! Me either! It's a wonder to me he can stand to look at him. I'm surprised he didn't kill him sooner. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree. 

Ugh! Me either! It's a wonder to me he can stand to look at him. I'm surprised he didn't kill him sooner. 

Why do you think Tyrion didn't kill him sooner? When he learned the truth about Tysha in ASOS he killed Shae and Tywin within hours.

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24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why do you think Tyrion didn't kill him sooner? When he learned the truth about Tysha in ASOS he killed Shae and Tywin within hours.

Yeah. I'm just saying I wouldn't blame him for wanting to kill Tywin for the act of having the guardsmen rape her & making Tyrion watch alone. Learning it was a lie was icing on the cake. 

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30 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why do you think Tyrion didn't kill him sooner? When he learned the truth about Tysha in ASOS he killed Shae and Tywin within hours.

He believes his big brother's lie. Tyrion idolizes Jaime, and not just because he is everything he is not, but because Jaime actually loves him and cares for him. If it was just Tywin telling the lie he creates, it is likely Tyrion doesn't believe him and he sees the lie for what is is. But Jaime wouldn't lie about paying Tysha to pretend to be his loving wife - or so he thinks.

When Jaime confesses the first thing he does, after hitting Jaime and ending their relationship is to go after Tywin. There is a lot that happens in between as well, but killing Tywin is done after the truth of the lie is exposed. Patricide is a step not easily taken until the extent of Tywin's lying and abuse is laid bare.

The simple answer is before the confession, Tyrion believes he participated in a degrading and humiliating sexual orgy a lying whore willingly participates in for money that Tywin stages to show him the truth of his illusion of love. After the confession, he knows the real truth of Tywin's orchestrated gang rape of his wife. Why does he wait until then? Jaime's confession turns his world upside down. After the confession he doesn't care that he will die if caught. He doesn't care that he has lost his position and wealth. All he cares about are two things. Killing his father in revenge for everything he has done, and finding Tysha.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

He believes his big brother's lie. Tyrion idolizes Jaime, and not just because he is everything he is not, but because Jaime actually loves him and cares for him. If it was just Tywin telling the lie he creates, it is likely Tyrion doesn't believe him and he sees the lie for what is is. But Jaime wouldn't lie about paying Tysha to pretend to be his loving wife - or so he thinks.

When Jaime confesses the first thing he does, after hitting Jaime and ending their relationship is to go after Tywin. There is a lot that happens in between as well, but killing Tywin is done after the truth of the lie is exposed. Patricide is a step not easily taken until the extent of Tywin's lying and abuse is laid bare.

The simple answer is before the confession, Tyrion believes he participated in a degrading and humiliating sexual orgy a lying whore willingly participates in for money that Tywin stages to show him the truth of his illusion of love. After the confession, he knows the real truth of Tywin's orchestrated gang rape of his wife. Why does he wait until then? Jaime's confession turns his world upside down. After the confession he doesn't care that he will die if caught. He doesn't care that he has lost his position and wealth. All he cares about are two things. Killing his father in revenge for everything he has done, and finding Tysha.

I wonder why Tywin is so against his children finding love, when he himself loved his wife and married her for no political gain. Though I will say that Jaime and Cersei’s relationship would not be regarded as a good thing anywhere (which is why I speculate that Cersei  killed her mother because she got in the way of her and Jaime, which she killed Melara over) while he allowed Kevan to marry Dorna Swyft, whose family has been disgraced at least once (consider they were lords circa the Dance of the Dragons and are only mere knights), and whose father is as useful as nipples on a breastplate.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder why Tywin is so against his children finding love, when he himself loved his wife and married her for no political gain. Though I will say that Jaime and Cersei’s relationship would not be regarded as a good thing anywhere (which is why I speculate that Cersei  killed her mother because she got in the way of her and Jaime, which she killed Melara over) while he allowed Kevan to marry Dorna Swyft, whose family has been disgraced at least once (consider they were lords circa the Dance of the Dragons and are only mere knights), and whose father is as useful as nipples on a breastplate.

With Tyrion I think it's fear and shame. He despises Tyrion for being a dwarf and for killing his mother. The latter is true even if your theory is correct. The last thing he wants is for Tyrion to bring another dwarf into the world and have the child bear the name Lannister. Which is, I believe, why Tywin just can't seem to find a match for Tyrion. But he can't let Tyrion beget little bastards via the whores he sleeps with or liaisons with common women. There can't be any dwarf Joy Hills in Casterly Rock either. I'm pretty sure, if he thought it wouldn't get out, he'd have castrated Tyrion long ago.

For all of his children there is the question of his Lordly rights to make the match that comes first. He tries his hardest to do so with both Cersei and Jaime. His aim is political matches that benefit House Lannister and bring it honor. Rhaegar with Cersei, and Jaime with Lysa. Love really isn't taken into the question. It is all about Tywin's goals for his house. Not that he is unusual in that regard. The interesting thing here is with Jaime's and Cersei's attempted matches we see Tywin swing from one political side of Westeros to the other. But both are political matches that could have benefited Tywin considerably.

I do have to disagree with you here a bit. I see Tywin's own marriage as a political one. That is not to say he didn't love his wife, but that there is a considerable benefit to political marriages between cousins. It consolidates power. In the aftermath of open rebellion in the Westerlands against Lannister power, Tywin needs no political rivals from his cousins. With Kevan and Dorna I think we need to learn more, but the marriage to vassal houses is the norm in Westeros. Its importance is to ensure the oaths of fealty are respected.

Edit: while I believe everything in the first paragraph is true, one shouldn't ignore the obvious. Tywin IS willing to have Tyrion marry Sansa Stark and have him fill Winterfell with his children. The obvious political benefits here override Tywin's hatred of Tyrion and his possible dwarf children.

Edited by SFDanny

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On 3/27/2020 at 4:20 PM, Bernie Mac said:

It actually is. The first time we see father and son together Tyrion is refusing to do what Tywin asked

"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork."
Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere."
 
Tyrion has got no problem with disobeying his father. He'd never have brought Shae, someone he had just met, if that was the case.

So now that I have provided evidence that he has will this altered your opinion?

When Kevan and Tywin sell him on the prospect. Marrying the heiress of the North excites Tyrion.

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill.

He is happy to say no. Unlike Cersei, Tywin has to convince Tyrion to say yes.

Yeah, he does. Not only does he stand up to him, but he takes the piss out of him infront of other council members.

Tyrion smiled crookedly. "Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead."

"I had hoped you might have more to offer us than japes, Tyrion," Lord Tywin Lannister said.

Tyrion has not shown any indication that he fears his father. He even seems pissed when Tywin is back as Hand.

"That's a handsome chain," Tyrion said. Though it looked better on me.
Lord Tywin ignored the sally. "You had best be seated. Is it wise for you to be out of your sickbed?"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why are you here in the city, Father?" he asked. "Shouldn't you be off fighting Lord Stannis or Robb Stark or someone?" And the sooner the better.

Tyrion talks to Tywin in a way that no one, not his brother or other children do.

He has just met Shae. How can you argue he is scared of his father when Tywin makes a pretty reasonable request after making him Hand and he still ignores it. This does not suggest fear.

So clearly he does not think the consequences are that high.

Why not put yourself in Tyrion's shoes again. Would you bring a whore to Kings Landing, one you had just met, when Tywin specifically told you not to?

 

edit: sorry if my tone sounds combative. It is not intentional. I edited a few things as rereading some of what I wrote came off blunter than I intended.

Are you seriously comparing a 13-year old Tyrion to a 24-year old Tyrion? There's a massive difference between a grown man and someone little more than a child even by ASOIAF standards standing up to Tywin. You also seem to assume that just because he is willing to do things his father doesn't approve of somehow means he didn't fear his father doing something awful in case the latter found out. This is EXACTLY why Tyrion sent Shae away in ASOS - he realized Tywin and Cersei were in position to do her harm.

 

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On 3/27/2020 at 12:22 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tysha should have known better than to what? 

Tyrion should have known better than to what? 

Of course teen rapists exist. Of course Tysha was raped. The question is does Tyrion hold all the blame for his own actions? Or does he get some slack cut because he is 13 with a sadistic father? 

The should have known better and not engaged in the relationship.  Tyrion should have known how such a relationship would be received by his dad.  

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51 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The should have known better and not engaged in the relationship.  Tyrion should have known how such a relationship would be received by his dad.  

That's like you're walking down a dark street alone & you get robbed & someone saying "you should have known better than to walk down that street alone" that's faulty on so many levels. 

Tywin did something wrong here, he is the one to blame. Not Tysha for not "knowing better" than to engage in that relationship & not Tyrion for not taking into account whatever horrific deed his father may come up with.

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17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's like you're walking down a dark street alone & you get robbed & someone saying "you should have known better than to walk down that street alone" that's faulty on so many levels. 

Tywin did something wrong here, he is the one to blame. Not Tysha for not "knowing better" than to engage in that relationship & not Tyrion for not taking into account whatever horrific deed his father may come up with.

Yup, victim-blaming, and that’s so wrong on so many levels. :ack:

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55 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's like you're walking down a dark street alone & you get robbed & someone saying "you should have known better than to walk down that street alone" that's faulty on so many levels. 

Tywin did something wrong here, he is the one to blame. Not Tysha for not "knowing better" than to engage in that relationship & not Tyrion for not taking into account whatever horrific deed his father may come up with.

 

I agree Tysha is not to blame. She was put in an awful position, she likely could not say no to Tyrion's proposal even if she wanted to. She will have been in fear from both Father and Son. The gulf in the class system would mean that Tysha had no choice whichever Lannister she was dealing with.

Tyrion was guilty, at least according to the actual books. Tyrion was able to say no, he chose not to. He chose to rape the person he claimed to have loved on the basis that she was a whore and he was aroused. Now in their world what he did would not be a crime, from his POV, but certainly from ours.

This idea that he could not say no to his father is hogwash. He could have, he thinks he could have. He chose not to, not out of fear but out of horniness.

 

Obviously Tywin is reprehensible for his actions. Tyrion is not nearly as guilty as his father, he lives in a society that does not believe whores can be raped. But he still carries guilt. He still rapes women, Tysha, the sex slave at Illyrio's and Valyrian looking whore from the brothel are not likely to be the only women he has raped in his lifetime and not dwelled on the morality of the situation.

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On 3/31/2020 at 3:46 AM, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder why Tywin is so against his children finding love, when he himself loved his wife and married her for no political gain.

He did marry her for political gain. Just like Ned and Cat married for political gain. This idea that people in arranged marriages don't love each other is hugely misguided. How many of you actually know people from cultures who practice this?

The majority of arranged marriages in cultures that practice them tend to be just as happy as marriages with actual choice.

House Lannister had a huge amount of heirs, Tywin's father was weak, his uncle was strong. Betrothing one branch to the other lessened the idea of a Dance of the Lions that may have arisen.

Cat and Ned, like Tywin and Joanna, loved each other. These were political matches, yet happy matches all the same. Ned never consults Sansa on who she will marry, the choice is his. He is still expecting her to love and be happy, their culture fully believes that arranged marriages are happy and loving.

Similarly, the one Lord who does marry for love, Doran, is clearly not in a happy or successful marriage. This is not GRRM saying such marriages are wrong, he clearly thinks the opposite, but that the culture they live in embraces them and don't see them as wrong.

On 3/31/2020 at 3:46 AM, Angel Eyes said:

 

Though I will say that Jaime and Cersei’s relationship would not be regarded as a good thing anywhere (which is why I speculate that Cersei  killed her mother because she got in the way of her and Jaime, which she killed Melara over)

Cersei did not kill her mother. Jesus, why do some of you need to speculate and turn the characters into pantomime villains.

On 3/31/2020 at 3:46 AM, Angel Eyes said:

 

 while he allowed Kevan to marry Dorna Swyft,

eh? We have no idea who allowed that. That may well have been betrothed long before Tywin was Lord.

 

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6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

I agree Tysha is not to blame. She was put in an awful position, she likely could not say no to Tyrion's proposal even if she wanted to. She will have been in fear from both Father and Son. The gulf in the class system would mean that Tysha had no choice whichever Lannister she was dealing with.

Tyrion was guilty, at least according to the actual books. Tyrion was able to say no, he chose not to. He chose to rape the person he claimed to have loved on the basis that she was a whore and he was aroused. Now in their world what he did would not be a crime, from his POV, but certainly from ours.

This idea that he could not say no to his father is hogwash. He could have, he thinks he could have. He chose not to, not out of fear but out of horniness.

 

Obviously Tywin is reprehensible for his actions. Tyrion is not nearly as guilty as his father, he lives in a society that does not believe whores can be raped. But he still carries guilt. He still rapes women, Tysha, the sex slave at Illyrio's and Valyrian looking whore from the brothel are not likely to be the only women he has raped in his lifetime and not dwelled on the morality of the situation.

That isn't what we are talking about here. The poster was saying Tyrion & Tysha are to blame for what happened because they both should have known better than to engage in this relationship - as you said Tysha, whether she wanted to engage in the relationship or not (I think it very likely she did) wouldn't have had much choice & certainly isn't to blame. 

Tyrion holds some blame for his own actions but he isn't at fault for merely engaging in the relationship when he "should have known how such a relationship would be received by his dad" by the other posters logic Tyrion is to blame for the rape solely for participating in the relationship to begin with, which I 100% disagree with.

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On 3/27/2020 at 9:19 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, the fact that Tyrion is a 13 year old child of a ruthless man

That is not evidence. If, in Tyrion's eyes, his father is as ruthless as you imagine, why marry in the first place? Why keep her under his father's nose?

 

Quote

 

& has attempted to hide what he did from him,

But still did it. People hide things all the time when they don't truly fear the consequences.

Hiding something does not mean that a person is fearful of harm as a consequence. People hide the most inconsequential of things as well. There is a spectrum.

Quote

 

coupled with the fact that he has been subjected to an ordeal that is clearly traumatic for him lead me to believe he would have been fearful of his father's repercussions. 

What ordeals before the rape? Can you quote them, where is father subjected him to such ordeals?

Quote

Right, & I'm saying he has reason to hate him for the lie. 

Do you not think wanting him dead is not a little extreme for lying to him?

And Tyrion already thought Jaime had lied to him, when he initially told him she was not a whore. He did not want him dead for that lie. There is a huge difference between his feelings about each lie.

Quote

Well, tbh I think I may have been confused about what exactly you are arguing. I was debating the assertion that Tyrion hating Jaime means he wasn't afraid of Tywin's wrath. Both things can be true.

And equally they can both be untrue.

Where is your evidence that he was fearful, as in scared of actual harm, from his father?

Quote

After reading your posts again I think maybe what you are saying is that Tyrion's reason for hating Jaime is directly related to the fact that Jaime convinced him his wife was a whore & that this gave Tyrion the motivation or justification in his own head for raping her? 

It did give him the justification. In the Middle Ages whores could not be raped.

We know that was part of the justification, I've literally spammed the relevant quote multiple times in this thread, you either seem to ignore it or just not read it.

He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

Quote

I'm not arguing against his words. You said he wasn't fearful of Tywin as evidenced by him doing something Tywin would disapprove of to begin with.

I said he was not fearful of harm.

There is an entire spectrum between being fearful of your life, fearful of serious punishment and fearful of a dressing down.

Tyrion does not indicate at all that he was fearful of what his father would do to him if he said no. If you can point to a quote I missed in the book that suggests otherwise I am happy to see it.

Quote

I said kids do things all the time they know they aren't supposed to do but they are still worried about the consequences when they get caught. 

And kids also do things by their own volition.  This, 'he's a kid to so it is not his fault' card is pretty flimsy. In his world and ours his age, 13, would not be used to excuse his actions.

Quote

I don't think GRRM would have to change what he wrote to add this in though. I think he could simply add in later that Tyrion initially refused or protested. 

Sure. He could do. He hasn't so far, and Tyrion's next sexual encounters after he learnt the truth about Tysha reinforces not only his views on rape with slaves/whores but their societies.

GRRM purposefully gave Tyrion the information that someone he loved, was not actually a whore but used as one. He carries on as normal, knowing that the slave does not want to have sex with him, later seeing the dead eyes of the whore and where she had been whipped does not phase him.

So while I do have far more understanding for 13 year old Tyrion, who is just doing what he is told by society, than I do for adult Tyrion who is now well aware that not all women are willing whores I still maintain that the decision to rape Tysha was his, and not one borne out of fear.

Quote

He does seem to think that. I don't think he could have stopped it, but possibly there is something he could have done that I'm not aware of. 

I don't think he could have stopped it either, though he could have stopped his own participation. But Tyrion thinks he could and he is more aware of what was possible in that situation than either of us.

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Just like Ned and Cat married for political gain. This idea that people in arranged marriages don't love each other is hugely misguided. How many of you actually know people from cultures who practice this?

Cat and Ned, like Tywin and Joanna, loved each other. These were political matches, yet happy matches all the same. Ned never consults Sansa on who she will marry, the choice is his. He is still expecting her to love and be happy, their culture fully believes that arranged marriages are happy and loving.

Cersei did not kill her mother. Jesus, why do some of you need to speculate and turn the characters into pantomime villains.

 

Well, there are quite a few examples of people in arranged marriages not loving each other in the books. Robert Baratheon's marriage to Cersei and Jon Arryn's marriage to Lysa Tully are some of the shining examples of arranged marriages gone horribly wrong. And then there's Ramsay's marriage to "Arya" really Jeyne Poole. Do you think that's a happy and loving marriage? Also, Lyanna Stark was quite unhappy about being betrothed to Robert; she could have ended up like Cersei: more snake than man, twisted and evil. Point is, it's very rare for an arranged marriage to work out well and when you find one that does, there are several that don't.

Why do I speculate and turn characters into pantomime villains? Well, because of evidence and coincidence. It's all but stated Cersei murdered Melara after they heard Maggy's prophecy, and then there's all the people that she sends to be tortured by Qyburn in AFFC. She has Robert's bastards massacred in ACOK because they might be a threat, has the Kettleblack brothers murder two guards and the High Septon, and orders Jon Snow's murder even though the Night's Watch is supposed to be neutral.

 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That isn't what we are talking about here. The poster was saying Tyrion & Tysha are to blame for what happened because they both should have known better than to engage in this relationship - as you said Tysha, whether she wanted to engage in the relationship or not (I think it very likely she did) wouldn't have had much choice & certainly isn't to blame. 

Tyrion should know better. In fact he clearly does as he hides it.

Tysha also likely knows better, but she is in position to say no to the son of the ruler of her lands.

GRRM: I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

A noble, at 13, would know their place. Someone as smart as Tyrion would certainly know it. Jon's only 15 at the start of the series and he is well aware of his place in the world. Sansa is eleven at the start and she is well aware of her place in the world.

I very much doubt a Lannister would be confused about the difference between the smallfolk and nobility.

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion holds some blame for his own actions but he isn't at fault for merely engaging in the relationship when he "should have known how such a relationship would be received by his dad"

He would not have know the lesson he would be taught as a consequence, but he certainly knows that young nobles don't

  • marry without the permission of the patriarch/matriarch of the family
  • marry peasants
  • marry someone they had known for a week

These are all things Tyrion will not have been ignorant about. He will have been taught about Egg's children and the consequences of their actions.

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

by the other posters logic Tyrion is to blame for the rape solely for participating in the relationship to begin with, which I 100% disagree with.

No, I hugely disagree with that. The gangrape is solely on Tywin.

I do think that Tyrion had choice in his own actions and I aslo do wonder if Tysha had any choice in marrying Tyrion or even engaging in a sexual relationship with him.

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