Tysha - who is to blame?

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree. It's almost like Tywin is a little inhuman. He doesn't seem to have a steady grasp of human emotions & how they work. He thinks he can rule through fear mongering & that works for a while but not forever 

That's why I always found it so weird, that he supposedly loved his wife so much and that her death was the thing, that ended up destroying him. It's obviously very romantic, but doesn't seem to fit the Tywin we know IMO

[Nagini's Neville]

Personally I don't understand the sensitivity around using the term victim-blaming/shaming. I myself have victim-shamed Tyrion in the past and have apologized for it (of course, I don't imply you have to apologize for potentially victim-shaming a fictional character)

I feel like in my country (or maybe just my community? )  we constantly tell each other, if we have victim-shamed and sometimes, that's wrong and then we discuss that and apologize for that again lol. IMO it's good to get a dialogue going.

Everyone victim-shames here and now again. It's a very human tendency. 

Here are two definitions:

Victim Blaming Law and Legal Definition:

Victim blaming is a devaluing act where the victim of a crime, an accident, or any type of abusive maltreatment is held as wholly or partially responsible for the wrongful conduct committed against them. Victim blaming can appear in the form of negative social reactions from legal, medical, and mental health professionals, as well as from the media and immediate family members and other acquaintances. Traditionally, victim-blaming has emerged in racist and sexist forms. The reason for victim blaming can be attributed to THE misconceptions about victims, perpetrators, and the nature of violent acts.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/v/victim-blaming/

 

What is Victim-Blaming?

Victim-blaming is the attitude which suggests that the victim rather than the perpetrator bears responsibility for the assault. Victim-blaming occurs when it is assumed that an individual did something to provoke the violence by actions, words, or dress. Many people would rather believe that someone caused their own misfortune because it makes the world seem a safer place, but victim-blaming is a major reason that survivors of sexual and domestic violence do not report their assaults. Many survivors are already grappling with feelings of guilt and shame for what has happened. It is essential that administrators do not reinforce these feelings. No matter what they were wearing, how much they had to drink, or whether they had a previously consensual relationship with the perpetrator, the victim should not be blamed. It is never the victim’s fault.

Victim-blaming advice to drink less, if it works at all to lessen the threat of violence for one individual, merely displaces the violence. It is the equivalent of saying “You don’t have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun your slowest friend.” It is essentially telling the potential victim to make sure the rapist rapes someone else.

 

https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/halt/how-to-avoid-victim-blaming/

Here it's obviously all about rape/sexual abuse, but of course you can apply it to all forms of abuse. What I dislike about this site though  is, the gendered language. Everyone can be abused. Everyone can be an abuser. otherwise it's good IMO.

 

 

Of course a person, who knowingly brings someone else in a dangerous situation has responsibility for doing so. I personally however don't think, that there was any possibility for either Tyrion nor Tysha to know the sort of punishment and torture they would have to endure (especially Tysha of course) for marrying behind Tywin's back and I have seen no evidence yet, that would suggest otherwise.

Anyway saying Tysha, should have known better is in any case victim-blaming, since she is the certain victim of the crimes committed here.

 

Fact is, that  we don't know, if Tywin wouldn't have punished Tyrion in the future for some other thing by hurting someone else to do so. So blaming victims is never right. 

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, Tywin earned what he had coming to him fair & square.

Well, idk about that. But I try not to judge

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I do hope Tyrion changes his demeanor though, or at least quits talking about raping his sister - or anyone for that matter LOL I'm all for him feeding Nurse mushroom broth & maybe even getting some revenge on Cersei, but not that. 

Ok, I judge a little lol. Fuck Nurse. I really dont want to feel sympathy for a slave driver.... But as Im writing this, about the hard worker who saved Penny and Jorahs life who was on the verge of death because of a shattering pandemic, idk... Lol.

Anyway, I dont think he really wants to rape his sister because thats fucking gross but also I dont think hes as fueled with hatred as he tells himself and others, often thinking fondly of Jaime. But Tyrion swore vengeance on his siblings and its easier to destroy the ones you hate then love

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I honestly don't think Tywin ever thought in a million years, even with the cross bow pointed at him, that Tyrion would pull the trigger. Much like Tyrion underestimated Tywin before, Tywin underestimated Tyrion here. 

"Didnt have the courage" but this was the man who took off his helmet in Blackwater. Idk... Tywin just saw his son a small man I guess.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It's almost sad, that with all of his intelligence, how utterly stupid Tywin was. If he would have been truly smart, even if cold hearted, he would have seen the potential in all of his 3 children (especially Tyrion) and used them to his and house Lannister's advantage, like Bolton did with Ramsey. He would have recognized, what a political treasure he had with Tyrion. You got to be utterly stupid to not understand, what a great thing Tyrion was able to pull of during the BOTW and try to capitalize on that ability. Instead he shamed and degraded him.  And it would have been so easy to make Tyrion love his father and do anything for him. But Tywin was actually quite stupid in that regard and simply too emotional to think rational here. 

I mean it was politics, Tyrion saved KL, decimated Stannis and fell into a coma. When Tyrion woke up how could Tywin make him protector of the city? 

Tywin perhaps saw potential in his son, but not to overshadow himself

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO it would have been an even more tragic story, if Tywin actually pretended to like/love Tyrion and then Tyrion would have found out, that it was all a lie. Would have been more chilling 

Yea, well, thats not the story lol. So, hearing rumors that your boss impregnated your wife isnt thrilling, especially when she dies and the kid comes out with light hair and a dark eye. 

I dont think Tywin ever tried to love Tyrion, 4ft tall or 6 ft

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion has always put his own well-being, before that of anyone else (except maybe Jaime in the past) he has never acted truly selfless before (that is actually also something, that abuse can to you)- except maybe in the BOTB, but even there you could argue, that this was his only choice, if the city had fallen, so would he have. I think his redemption could lay in putting other ppl's needs before his own during the Long Night. But I'd say it's a 50/50 chance. 

I disagree. Tyrion does put others before himself, specifically since hes entered his kinslayers hell. He dives in front of a stone monster to save the life of a teenager he just met, almost killing himself in the process. He continues to save lives like adding Penny to her squad instead of leaving her homeless in Volantis or asking Nurse to save Jorah from a certain death

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

. Could also be, that GRRM is telling a villain origin story the same way with Dany.

And if he does that, honestly I think it would be really sweet as well  two excellent well fleshed-out Darth Vader stories 

I dont think there are supposed to be heroes or villains in the story, I mean Ani falls to the "dark side" which is clearly some anti shining white knight/ Aemon dragonknight bullshit. Two sides to every coin type situation. We're all just people not onions 

But, yea lol. Dany and Tyrion (and Sansa, sorry. Lol but especially Sansa I think) are probably going to go down in history as very polarizing people who have committed some reprehensible acts. We can take an educated guess on what Danys will be, yet to see what Halfman (and mrs. Halfman) has to do to fall in the Vader category.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

and sorry for my non-existent proper speech toady. Normally I try with you since I know how important that is to you, but I'm just to lazy today

Lmao everything looks nice and proper to me. And even if it wasnt I really dont care lol.(although... Whats. BOTB and BOTW? Blackwater, both of em?)

[Nagini's Neville]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Two sides to every coin type situation.

sure that makes a good villain  Ani was also just was sad, because mom died and he wanted to save Padme. What could he do, if there were some Younglings in the way?

GRRM has called Tyrion himself a villain btw. And people... onions- it's the same  they both have layers 

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sansa I think) are probably going to go down in history as very polarizing people who have committed some reprehensible acts.

yeah, not supporting, that fanfic of yours. She has not even poisoned one little cousin yet. She would have to do a lot of evil to catch up.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I disagree. Tyrion does put others before himself, specifically since hes entered his kinslayers hell.

usually he only does stuff for others, if it doesn't put himself in jeopardy. If he has a severe disadvantage he won't do it.

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He dives in front of a stone monster to save the life of a teenager he just met, almost killing himself in the process.

can't remember this though. tbh haven't reread tyrion's dance chapters in ages, because he is so gross in them. so maybe you have a point. 

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean it was politics, Tyrion saved KL, decimated Stannis and fell into a coma. When Tyrion woke up how could Tywin make him protector of the city? 

Tywin perhaps saw potential in his son, but not to overshadow himself

he should have not yelled at him, he would never get CR. Should have shown him some semblance of affection. A simple thank you could have gone a long way. Should have tried harder to fake it.

 

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

BOTB and BOTW? Blackwater, both of em?)

Blackwater is written together so I always just say BOTB. but apparently no one understands that lately

24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lmao everything looks nice and proper to me. And even if it wasnt I really dont care lol.

Alright. then I don't have to try anymore

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

36 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well, idk about that. But I try not to judge

Yeah, well like I don't think people should kill people but since we are talking about a book, I'll admit I was glad he did it lol 

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, I judge a little lol. Fuck Nurse. I really dont want to feel sympathy for a slave driver.... But as Im writing this, about the hard worker who saved Penny and Jorahs life who was on the verge of death because of a shattering pandemic, idk... Lol.

haha yeah, I feel ya. 

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Anyway, I dont think he really wants to rape his sister because thats fucking gross but also I dont think hes as fueled with hatred as he tells himself and others, often thinking fondly of Jaime. But Tyrion swore vengeance on his siblings and its easier to destroy the ones you hate then love

Agreed. I do hope he turns around. I don't disagree maybe some vengeance is in order but as corny as it sounds, forgiveness really is for you, not for them. 

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

"Didnt have the courage" but this was the man who took off his helmet in Blackwater. Idk... Tywin just saw his son a small man I guess.

Yep, The man is no craven regardless of his size & Tywin should have paid more attention. Tyrion represented something in his mind he just couldn't see around. 

39 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, well, thats not the story lol. So, hearing rumors that your boss impregnated your wife isnt thrilling, especially when she dies and the kid comes out with light hair and a dark eye. 

I dont think Tywin ever tried to love Tyrion, 4ft tall or 6 ft

Yep that's it. He never forgave him for "killing" Joanna & couldn't/didn't take out his anger on Aerys for the rumors so he took them out on Tyrion. That & maybe Tyrion was a little too much like Tywin for his likes? 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Blackwater is written together so I always just say BOTB. but apparently no one understands that lately

I understood it, maybe because I'm extra much like you? 

18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Alright. then I don't have to try anymore

You are perfectly understandable. 

[Nagini's Neville]

20 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

maybe because I'm extra much like you

ohh, I missed "extra much"- had almost forgotten about, now I gotta use it again 

20 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You are perfectly understandable. 

Thanks!  I'm glad!

Edit: honestly Hugor is constantly hot and cold with me. First he complains, says proper speech is important, than I try proper speeching, than he says he couldn't care less smh

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

37 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Edit: honestly Hugor is constantly hot and cold with me. First he complains, says proper speech is important, than I try proper speeching, than he says he couldn't care less smh

haha! @Hugorfonics is a tricksy fellow. 

[Hugorfonics]

50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

sure that makes a good villain  Ani was also just was sad, because mom died and he wanted to save Padme. What could he do, if there were some Younglings in the way?

Ani was just a bitch lol. Idk, he was like Dak, taking on the whole empire by himself. Like it wasnt even that Padme was sick or showing any signs. Like, whats a Senators insurance like? Idk, I love star wars but iii and ix, meh. Lol. It was a little too easy for me.

58 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

GRRM has called Tyrion himself a villain btw. 

Yea, but I probably wont see it lol. Probably Dany too.

Theres gotta be a big cut off point for me, like, whats the word... Extra much. 

Silvertounge, Shae Tywin and Nurse. Good riddance. Lol. Hit me GRRM

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, not supporting, that fanfic of yours. She has not even poisoned one little cousin yet. She would have to do a lot of evil to catch up.

Patience young Skywalker

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

usually he only does stuff for others, if it doesn't put himself in jeopardy. If he has a severe disadvantage he won't do it.

can't remember this though. tbh haven't reread tyrion's dance chapters in ages, because he is so gross in them. so maybe you have a point. 

Not even about maybe. He saves Aegon from the stoners. Hes thrown into the mutation river and screams fuck em all but is underwater so he drowns like an Ironborn. Griff saves him and gets greyscale. I remember well cuz ive read tyrions adwd more then any other chapter because idk, maybe i like gross lol

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

he should have not yelled at him, he would never get CR. Should have shown him some semblance of affection. A simple thank you could have gone a long way. Should have tried harder to fake it.

He shoulda given his son the rock. I mean, hes gonna take it anyway lol. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Blackwater is written together so I always just say BOTB. but apparently no one understands that lately

Cool. Well, I assumed

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Alright. then I don't have to try anymore

For me? God, no

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, well like I don't think people should kill people but since we are talking about a book, I'll admit I was glad he did it lol 

Oh hell yea lol. 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed. I do hope he turns around. I don't disagree maybe some vengeance is in order but as corny as it sounds, forgiveness really is for you, not for them. 

I always thought this was interesting. Characters like Tyrion Theon and Sandor are the ones we want rehabilitation from, but despite all three being pieces of shit theyre famous for killing Joff, Bran and Rickon, and 1/4 of the Saltpens. None of which theyre guilty of. So for them to become their better self would mean they'd have to, like, surpass reality

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yep, The man is no craven regardless of his size & Tywin should have paid more attention. Tyrion represented something in his mind he just couldn't see around. 

Yep that's it. He never forgave him for "killing" Joanna & couldn't/didn't take out his anger on Aerys for the rumors so he took them out on Tyrion. That & maybe Tyrion was a little too much like Tywin for his likes? 

Thats my favorite explanation, cuz its Tyrion centered lol. Like when Jaimes aunt sonned him like she did his father, which was actually my favorite part of affc cuz its Tyrion centered lol

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Edit: honestly Hugor is constantly hot and cold with me. First he complains, says proper speech is important, than I try proper speeching, than he says he couldn't care less smh

That doesnt sound like me lol. Idk, maybe I was just fucking with you. Ive always been an extra much fan of extra much though. (I almost used it in public a few weeks back, but then i didnt cuz you know, its not proper speech lol)

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh hell yea lol.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I always thought this was interesting. Characters like Tyrion Theon and Sandor are the ones we want rehabilitation from, but despite all three being pieces of shit theyre famous for killing Joff, Bran and Rickon, and 1/4 of the Saltpens. None of which theyre guilty of. So for them to become their better self would mean they'd have to, like, surpass reality

 For sure. I want them to have redemption for themselves though. Even though they aren't guilty of the things they are accused of they are guilty of things that eat away at them. I want them to come to terms with what they've done & move past it, however they can do that. 

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats my favorite explanation, cuz its Tyrion centered lol. Like when Jaimes aunt sonned him like she did his father, which was actually my favorite part of affc cuz its Tyrion centered lol

Oh yeah, me too. Tyrion is the good parts of Tywin, & some of the bad too but not all of the bad. 

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That doesnt sound like me lol. Idk, maybe I was just fucking with you. Ive always been an extra much fan of extra much though. (I almost used it in public a few weeks back, but then i didnt cuz you know, its not proper speech lol)

haha!! yeah, I think I was privvy to this conversation & you certainly did. You were messing with her though. I love extra much. I say it to my husband all the time now LOL 

[Nagini's Neville]

"I don't think people should kill people" Lyanna<3Rhaegar 

 

Omg had me lol so much. @Lyanna<3Rhaegar I think you are on the right path in life 

 

Edit: IMO this should have been a year book quote!  Do you Americans really have this or just in the movies?

[Nagini's Neville]

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I want them to come to terms with what they've done & move past it, however they can do that. 

Problem is, they all would need intensive therapy and seems like only one is getting it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Personally I don't understand the sensitivity around using the term victim-blaming/shaming. I myself have victim-shamed Tyrion in the past and have apologized for it (of course, I don't imply you have to apologize for potentially victim-shaming a fictional character)

I feel like in my country (or maybe just my community? )  we constantly tell each other, if we have victim-shamed and sometimes, that's wrong and then we discuss that and apologize for that again lol. IMO it's good to get a dialogue going.

So, I agree. I don't think there should be the sensitivity around using the term - it's just a word after all. I think the issue arises because too many people get up in arms over someone they think is or has been called a victim-blamer/shamer. I'm not doing a very good job of explaining myself. Let me try again. 

Like, if someone is labeled a victim-blamer people look down on them, think their thoughts aren't valid, think they are saying the victim got what he/she deserved. It's a mob mentality at times & it doesn't allow for proper expression of ones opinions. Of course there are those who think a victim got what he/she deserved - Just a few posts up I said Tywin got what he deserved. That is in essence victim-blaming. Tywin was the victim & I'm blaming him for what happened to him. The reason no one has jumped on me about it is that Tywin did some very, very bad things so it's easy to understand why I may blame him for what happened to him. Most people understand that while I am saying Tywin got what he deserved, I'm not saying Tyrion didn't commit the act. Tyrion's actions are his own & it is not Tywin's fault that Tyrion killed him, Tyrion could have made a number of other choices. 

When it comes to someone like Tysha, who hasn't done anything bad (that we are aware of) so when someone is being labeled a "victim-blamer" irt to her, it gives others the ammunition to start saying things like this person is a rapist apologist or misogynistic. Both things that are very shameful & has the potential to bully the poster into silence to avoid further accusations of such. 

It sounds like your country/community is different & I understand why you would use the term if it helps the conversation along. In the settings I'm in, it brings the conversation to a screeching halt - which is never good for anyone, especially not a discussion board. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Victim blaming is a devaluing act where the victim of a crime, an accident, or any type of abusive maltreatment is held as wholly or partially responsible for the wrongful conduct committed against them. Victim blaming can appear in the form of negative social reactions from legal, medical, and mental health professionals, as well as from the media and immediate family members and other acquaintances. Traditionally, victim-blaming has emerged in racist and sexist forms. The reason for victim blaming can be attributed to THE misconceptions about victims, perpetrators, and the nature of violent acts.

So, I agree what the poster I was speaking to, Corbon, & myself have all engaged in this throughout this conversation as per the definition. I think the problem is that the definition is too encompassing. Because I believe it is one thing to say someone holds some responsibility for their actions & the consequences they led to & another thing, completely across the country to suffer negative social reactions from legal, medical & mental health professionals & being used in racist/sexist forms. But I think that is exactly why it's such a taboo thing to call someone - because whether or not they are truly saying something racist/sexist or giving negative reactions from a legal, medical, or mental health standpoint that is immediately what people associate it to in their mind. The first thing that comes to mind when the word "victim-blaming/shaming" is used is someone saying a girl deserves to be raped because she wore shorts & a tank top or something of that nature. I think we can both agree that's not what any of us were doing here. 

Point being that it does fit the definition of victim-shaming/blaming but it fits so much more than that, that is more widely associated with that term that we end up inadvertently shaming the person giving the opinion. 

I personally dislike the phrase that the victim holds some blame - I think that is mostly to do with my preconceived differences in blame vs responsibility. Because I think it's totally fair to say certain victims hold responsibility for their actions. Their own actions though, not what happened to them, not the bad thing that was done to them. The responsibility for that lies with the perpetrator in total. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

"I don't think people should kill people" Lyanna<3Rhaegar 

 

Omg had me lol so much. @Lyanna<3Rhaegar I think you are on the right path in life 

 

Edit: IMO this should have been a year book quote!  Do you Americans really have this or just in the movies?

haha!!! We do really have year book quotes. I graduated back in 1998 but if I were graduating today, it most certainly would be my year book quote! 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Problem is, they all would need intensive therapy and seems like only one is getting it.

yeah for sure. I mean irl they certainly would need it. Maybe the George has some other means for them to gain it. For instance, the time on the QI may be the "intensive therapy" the Hound needs, at least to get a little better. 

[Nagini's Neville]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

haha!! yeah, I think I was privvy to this conversation & you certainly did. You were messing with her though. I love extra much. I say it to my husband all the time now LOL 

You horrible Americans! A poor humorless German doing her best here to make a good impression and you are taking the piss out of her (yeah, this is extra much british- so you won't understand!) talking mainly to @Hugorfonics here of course! 

But happy you guys use my word creation 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

yeah for sure. I mean irl they certainly would need it. Maybe the George has some other means for them to gain it. For instance, the time on the QI may be the "intensive therapy" the Hound needs, at least to get a little better. 

maybe the Hound can write recommendations for the others 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For sure. I want them to have redemption for themselves though. Even though they aren't guilty of the things they are accused of they are guilty of things that eat away at them. I want them to come to terms with what they've done & move past it, however they can do that. 

Word. Thats really all we can ask from the kingslayer (the little one lol), the kinslayer and the wild dog of the Saltpens

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh yeah, me too. Tyrion is the good parts of Tywin, & some of the bad too but not all of the bad.  

Yeah, he tries to emulate his father like Jon Snow (Ned) but at the end of the day theyre their own person

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

haha!! yeah, I think I was privvy to this conversation & you certainly did. You were messing with her though. I love extra much. I say it to my husband all the time now LOL 

Lol

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

yeah for sure. I mean irl they certainly would need it. Maybe the George has some other means for them to gain it. For instance, the time on the QI may be the "intensive therapy" the Hound needs, at least to get a little better. 

Yea, hopefully. With that cool Septon with a dog (who watched Brienne and co get abducted by bandits lol) Talking helps, right? Like Lancel when he couldn't shut up to that other Septon lol or Jaime. 

I think Victarion is receiving some type of therapy from the Dusky Woman, not like she can give any negative feed back. Though he totally picked the worst shrink, he thinks shes Eurons creature but treats her like Fraiser Crane. Well, Vics an idiot, just maybe now a more mentally healthy idiot, or slightly more. Hes still on a voyage which entails murder and kidnapping all for the end goal of kinslaying and world domination, but uh, judgment aside, talking helps.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You horrible Americans! A poor humorless German doing her best here to make a good impression 

I told ya. You certainly dont have to on my account, on behalf of all Americans lol

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 you are taking the piss out of her (yeah, this is extra much british- so you won't understand!) talking mainly to @Hugorfonics here of course! 

Lol taking the piss out. Crazy british slang

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But happy you guys use my word creation 

Your like Shakespeare!

[Nagini's Neville]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So, I agree what the poster I was speaking to, Corbon, & myself have all engaged in this throughout this conversation as per the definition. I think the problem is that the definition is too encompassing. Because I believe it is one thing to say someone holds some responsibility for their actions & the consequences they led to & another thing, completely across the country to suffer negative social reactions from legal, medical & mental health professionals & being used in racist/sexist forms. But I think that is exactly why it's such a taboo thing to call someone - because whether or not they are truly saying something racist/sexist or giving negative reactions from a legal, medical, or mental health standpoint that is immediately what people associate it to in their mind. The first thing that comes to mind when the word "victim-blaming/shaming" is used is someone saying a girl deserves to be raped because she wore shorts & a tank top or something of that nature. I think we can both agree that's not what any of us were doing here. 

Point being that it does fit the definition of victim-shaming/blaming but it fits so much more than that, that is more widely associated with that term that we end up inadvertently shaming the person giving the opinion. 

I personally dislike the phrase that the victim holds some blame - I think that is mostly to do with my preconceived differences in blame vs responsibility. Because I think it's totally fair to say certain victims hold responsibility for their actions. Their own actions though, not what happened to them, not the bad thing that was done to them. The responsibility for that lies with the perpetrator in total. 

The term "victim-shaming" of course comes from a psychology pov (not technical term) and has the not further damaging of the victims in mind. It has nothing to do with, that in theory, if this one person x wouldn't have trusted this stranger they wouldn't have been raped for example. 

Of course if person x hadn't trusted the stranger, like their parents told them to, they wouldn't have been raped. But very likely another person would have been raped or another person on a different day. And we see it with Tywin, he does and allows something horrible constantly, a 100 tyshas have been already raped by the mountain and his men, because Tywin allows it. If it wouldn't have been Tysha it would have been another girl. I just don't understand, when there is one person, who has obviously done something wrong and horrible, the stranger, if they hadn't done anything at all nothing bad would have happened, why there is the need to pick apart every single thing the victim did? It's a psychological phenomena of course. We do it because the thought, that also we or our loved ones could become victims is basically unbearable. In an attempt to maintain control over our lives, we blame the victim. Because we can't control the predators- or so we think and if the victim did something wrong this is something we can avoid in our own lives- this goes as far as ostracizing the victim completely to be able to make a clear distinction between the victim and oneself.

Irl the problem is that the victims already feel an insurmountable amount of guilt and shame so to add to that on top of that would retraumatize them and would prevent other victims from coming forwards. In practice it is a really big issue and one of the reasons why f.e. men and boys very seldom come forward (also about things like domestic violence f.e. ). That's why you should never do it irl. No matter what. You can tell your kids to not get drunk at a party and stay close to trusted friends etc. beforehand, but afterwards ppl should never point out the responsibility of their actions to the victims. Because they'll blame themselves already to no end- for some that takes a life time to overcome, if ever. And you can be certain they won't go to parties again after or do whatever it was they were doing, when it happened, because most of them will have to overcome ptsd or/and an anxiety disorder. So pointing out what they could have done differently will achieve nothing, but will damage the victims even more, will prevent others from feeling save enough to come forward and will additionally take the focus away from the predator(even if not intended, subconsciously that will happen)

Of course making sure beforehand not to engage in risky behavior is wise, but pointing it out after being victimized is no good.

And you should never do it to children, because for them there are different rules entirely, since their frontal lobe isn't fully developed yet, which among a lot of other important functions is for planing and decision-making, to think ahead and anticipate consequences.

That's why I think it's definitely not right to apply it to Tysha (I also think the commoner truly have no knowledge of how the world works for the most part, elaborated on that in #94) but also not to Tyrion, since I have seen nothing, that would suggest he, with his child brain, could have in any way anticipated his Dad would go crazy to this extent. That he would be punished- for sure- but not with that crazy cruelty. Like I said before most Lords would have not done this to their worst enemies. (And I'm hard on Tyrion when it comes to shae in that regard, which I feel like no one else is, because then he for sure in completely aware of the consequences and decides to take the risk anyway, without letting Shae decide for herself. If she had been executed for that, I would have said he is partly responsible)

But even if Tysha f.e. would have known of the risk, I still think according to the definition pointing out her responsibility for her behavior would be victim-blaming. And I'm happy that it's defined that way. Maybe because I know the horrendous damage, that it can do to ppl and it basically has no benefits at all (except for simulating to ourselves a false sense of safety and control, because fact is we all have been in situations before, where we easily could have been victimized-that's humans, it's just shier luck, that it didn't happen to us and sadly to a lot of us it did)

Also less intelligent people need to be protected as well.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So, I agree. I don't think there should be the sensitivity around using the term - it's just a word after all. I think the issue arises because too many people get up in arms over someone they think is or has been called a victim-blamer/shamer. I'm not doing a very good job of explaining myself. Let me try again. 

Like, if someone is labeled a victim-blamer people look down on them, think their thoughts aren't valid, think they are saying the victim got what he/she deserved. It's a mob mentality at times & it doesn't allow for proper expression of ones opinions. Of course there are those who think a victim got what he/she deserved - Just a few posts up I said Tywin got what he deserved. That is in essence victim-blaming. Tywin was the victim & I'm blaming him for what happened to him. The reason no one has jumped on me about it is that Tywin did some very, very bad things so it's easy to understand why I may blame him for what happened to him. Most people understand that while I am saying Tywin got what he deserved, I'm not saying Tyrion didn't commit the act. Tyrion's actions are his own & it is not Tywin's fault that Tyrion killed him, Tyrion could have made a number of other choices. 

When it comes to someone like Tysha, who hasn't done anything bad (that we are aware of) so when someone is being labeled a "victim-blamer" irt to her, it gives others the ammunition to start saying things like this person is a rapist apologist or misogynistic. Both things that are very shameful & has the potential to bully the poster into silence to avoid further accusations of such. 

It sounds like your country/community is different & I understand why you would use the term if it helps the conversation along. In the settings I'm in, it brings the conversation to a screeching halt - which is never good for anyone, especially not a discussion board. 

I feel like in my country we are very direct, that's probably why we can appear to be rude. I see what you mean. I think this mob mentality and silencing culture is not okay. And I wouldn't listen to someone, who uses "this person is this or that" to discredit others' opinion. We all should learn from GRRM. Ppl are grey  Our opinions are all subjective and mine should get a voice as much as yours.

I definitely think it's not okay to give statements like "this is a victim-shamer", but I think it would be extremely beneficial, if we all could be able to say to each other "this particular statement of yours sounds like v-s, racist, sexist etc.... to me personally, could you please elaborate on that or explain it"- the last part, if you are feeling polite , without consequences for the person addressed. Or explain to them right away why you feel that way about the particular statement and inquire, if that was what they meant.

We should be able to do that, not only here IMO. Because what happens otherwise is, a bunch of ppl - just thinking a bunch of stuff drifting father apart and you can never find at least some things in common or any kind of solutions. You should also be able to learn and change your mind, especially if it's just about your attitude, without any repercussions. And you can't learn without hearing other ppl's honest opinions, see things from their perspective and hear about their experiences.

But we all probably would need some lessons in effective and respectful communication to achieve that lol