Tysha - who is to blame?

[corbon]

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Also please provide quotes, that show Tyrion already knew as a child, that his father would react this way towards his own son (and not quotes, that show he knows now as a adult to evaluate those actions and attitudes correctly)

No. Please read properly what I said and don't shoot off a reply without considering what I actually said first. I have no need to provide such quotes because I have not argued that Tyrion had any reason to expect this reaction. 
You are consistently railing against positions I haven't actually taken, if you read carefully through a detailed and nuanced conversation where two of us are trying to express difficult and complicated ideas.

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It is IMO just the judgement of adults, who have trouble taking on the pov of a child in this specific situation.

Tyrion is 13. Yes he's a child, but he's also only 2 years from being a man. Maturation is an individual thing, and people mature at different rates, but people in this world (and in ours at a similar development stage) mature earlier than they do now. 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I still kind of disagree with this though. I agree she should have known better irt the entire event & that a range of negative things may result from those actions. Where I disagree is irt the actual gang rape because I just don't think she could have foreseen that.

And I didn't say she should have, or could have. 
But she should have, IMO, been able to understand that it was unlikely to turn out well. Based on general knowledge of Tywin's well known history (eg Reynes of Castamere).

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think that would have been anywhere on her radar or within the realm of possibilities in her mind. Maybe I'm understating the knowledge a crofters daughter may have of what Tywin is capable of. 

And maybe not too. My own position is that she likely didn't have the information she should have had. The discussion about whether any responsibility or 'blame' falls on her shoulders is predicated on her perhaps (because its a reasonable possibility) having 'enough' information but ignoring it for either teenage hormone reasons or (mis)calculated risk/reward reasons.

I think that even a crofter's daughter understands the lessons of the Reynes of Castamere. Whether she's able to put that together with Tyrion and Jaime who rescued her, is another thing entirely. Maybe she should have, maybe she wasn't equipped to. Most likely even if she was equipped to, she neglected those scary thoughts in favour of the enjoyable present. As teenagers are won't to do. Which doesn't absolve them, but does lessen their level of responsibility by some amount.

We are allowed to disagree on the point of how much she probably knew - or rather, assume different levels as a basis of discussion.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. He certainly knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, now. I don't think it's entirely clear what he knew before this but agree it's likely he knew to some extent what Tywin is capable of. I think possibly he believed - wrongly - that being his son would offer some leniency. More than that though I think he hoped beyond hope that this wild scheme of his would work out, even knowing at the same time it couldn't, because he wanted this very badly. Also, even fully grown adults make terrible decisions when love gets in the way. 

Yes, very much so. And in that, I think the responsibility falls in him. In thinking this way he neglected to consider Tysha and what might happen to her.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For sure. I think this is in part due to the level of selfishness all teenagers possess, the inability to think things through to the end & understand & weigh the potential consequences. As an adult he understands much better how his actions played into the end result. 

Yep.

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I was not directing that specifically at you, just stating it generally. I'm sorry, if that wasn't clear! But still no need to answer so condescendingly.

Sorry. It wasn't meant condescendingly. I just finished giving a detailed explanation of why the cry of "victim shaming" is an appalling one and then you jump in and exactly prove what I just said. I'm being very restrained here, its not intended to be condescending.

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I disagree here and just taking that from history but also from the text.

Allow me to quote myself.

On 4/3/2020 at 9:59 AM, corbon said:

Tysha I think is less likely to fully understand the situation. We don't know how much she was aware of, how much she understood. We don't know if she incorrectly factored risk elements or was simply unaware of them. Its possible she thought that this could end well. Its likely she underestimated the risk factor of it ending badly.
Its also possible that she knew there was some risk, but took the risk anyway due to the potential reward. If so, that would be on her (not that it would be worth much, in comparison).

I think there is more variation of understanding amongst the peasants than Meribold suggests. He's 'teaching' Brienne IIRC, so presenting a simplified point of view to her.
I think the peasants understand the lessons of the Reynes of Castamere well enough. And I'm sure Tywin made sure its been well and truly played to death throughout the Westlands.
An isolated crofters daughter - its possible she hasn't heard, or considered, it. But equally possible she has.

But we generally agree that Tysha probably didn't know what she should have known.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The term "victim-shaming" of course comes from a psychology pov (not technical term) and has the not further damaging of the victims in mind. It has nothing to do with, that in theory, if this one person x wouldn't have trusted this stranger they wouldn't have been raped for example. 

Of course if person x hadn't trusted the stranger, like their parents told them to, they wouldn't have been raped. But very likely another person would have been raped or another person on a different day. And we see it with Tywin, he does and allows something horrible constantly, a 100 tyshas have been already raped by the mountain and his men, because Tywin allows it. If it wouldn't have been Tysha it would have been another girl. I just don't understand, when there is one person, who has obviously done something wrong and horrible, the stranger, if they hadn't done anything at all nothing bad would have happened, why there is the need to pick apart every single thing the victim did? It's a psychological phenomena of course. We do it because the thought, that also we or our loved ones could become victims is basically unbearable. In an attempt to maintain control over our lives, we blame the victim. Because we can't control the predators- or so we think and if the victim did something wrong this is something we can avoid in our own lives- this goes as far as ostracizing the victim completely to be able to make a clear distinction between the victim and oneself.

Irl the problem is that the victims already feel an insurmountable amount of guilt and shame so to add to that on top of that would retraumatize them and would prevent other victims from coming forwards. In practice it is a really big issue and one of the reasons why f.e. men and boys very seldom come forward (also about things like domestic violence f.e. ). That's why you should never do it irl. No matter what. You can tell your kids to not get drunk at a party and stay close to trusted friends etc. beforehand, but afterwards ppl should never point out the responsibility of their actions to the victims. Because they'll blame themselves already to no end- for some that takes a life time to overcome, if ever. And you can be certain they won't go to parties again after or do whatever it was they were doing, when it happened, because most of them will have to overcome ptsd or/and an anxiety disorder. So pointing out what they could have done differently will achieve nothing, but will damage the victims even more, will prevent others from feeling save enough to come forward and will additionally take the focus away from the predator(even if not intended, subconsciously that will happen)

Of course making sure beforehand not to engage in risky behavior is wise, but pointing it out after being victimized is no good.

And you should never do it to children, because for them there are different rules entirely, since their frontal lobe isn't fully developed yet, which among a lot of other important functions is for planing and decision-making, to think ahead and anticipate consequences.

That's why I think it's definitely not right to apply it to Tysha (I also think the commoner truly have no knowledge of how the world works for the most part, elaborated on that in #94) but also not to Tyrion, since I have seen nothing, that would suggest he, with his child brain, could have in any way anticipated his Dad would go crazy to this extent. That he would be punished- for sure- but not with that crazy cruelty. Like I said before most Lords would have not done this to their worst enemies. (And I'm hard on Tyrion when it comes to shae in that regard, which I feel like no one else is, because then he for sure in completely aware of the consequences and decides to take the risk anyway, without letting Shae decide for herself. If she had been executed for that, I would have said he is partly responsible)

But even if Tysha f.e. would have known of the risk, I still think according to the definition pointing out her responsibility for her behavior would be victim-blaming. And I'm happy that it's defined that way. Maybe because I know the horrendous damage, that it can do to ppl and it basically has no benefits at all (except for simulating to ourselves a false sense of safety and control, because fact is we all have been in situations before, where we easily could have been victimized-that's humans, it's just shier luck, that it didn't happen to us and sadly to a lot of us it did)

Also less intelligent people need to be protected as well.

 

Oh yeah I agree victim shaming comes from a psychological stand point, I think it just gets used in other ways. 

To be fair, irl, I would never pick apart every action of a victim unless I was studying that case or something of that nature. I don't think it's helpful to the victim, except in terms of helping them learn how to avoid a similar instance in the future but they have likely already learned that & if not that would be something to be discussed with a licensed professional, not me or the media. But in this setting, where we are discussing book characters & we have so much dang time between books & nothing to do but analyze every detail of the story, I think it's interesting to discuss every action of the victim (or the perpetrator) because it gives us an opportunity to conversate about these things safely - or without causing the victim psychological harm. 

I agree an element of it is wanting to have some control, wanting to believe this awful thing wouldn't happen to us or our loved ones, because we are vigilant & observant & we know better etc, but the sad truth is sometimes there isn't one thing you could have done to avoid being victimized. I think that is doubly true where children are concerned. 

I don't think it's always to ostracize the victim though (that may be the case sometimes) & I think it's this very thought process that makes it so dangerous to call someone a victim shamer. I think things need to be discussed, no matter how sensitive they are, no matter how hurtful they may be (but discussed in the right settings) & I don't think we should ever shy away from listening to another person's opinion, especially when we disagree with it. Believing people who are laying some blame on the victim are all trying to ostracize the victim creates a sense of shame in the person being labeled such & shuts down any potential conversation. Not only because that person will likely not want to voice their opinion any further (after feeling shamed & misunderstood) but also because other people will jump on the bandwagon & not want to conversate with someone known as a victim-shamer. 

That being said, if someone is saying the victim deserved what they got because of some innocent action of theirs, brought it on themselves because of some innocent action, or that it is their own fault that they got victimized I would 100 % disagree with that person 100 % of the time. The difference in that & what Corbon & I were discussing is that it's is agreed the fault for the terrible deed lies with the perpetrator, the victim did not bring this on themselves, nor did they deserve it. BUT they own responsibility for their own actions & those actions put them in a situation in which allowed them to be victimized or increased the chances of being victimized. 

For instance, a child, runs out in front of a car, gets hit & dies. That childs actions led directly to getting hit by that car. Did they know better? Perhaps, depending on their age. & Also (depending on their age) they hold responsibility for their actions. Their actions were their own. The child is to blame (or maybe the parent if child didn't know better) for running out in the street. They didn't do anything bad or evil & certainly didn't deserve to die for their actions but they are still responsible for running in the street. I hope I'm making sense because it's difficult for me to put my feelings in words here. 

I agree it can be detrimental to an already fragile person but I do think there is some benefit to discussing their actions in the right setting, at the right time. I would not agree that telling a woman who had recently been raped that she should have known better than to walk in some bad neighborhood would be a helpful or fair response to her. But, within a clinical setting, after some healing has occurred, it could be beneficial to the victim to discuss the role their own actions played in the situation. Not only to avoid it in the future, but also to give the victim some sense of control & feeling that they can lessen the chances of this happening to them again. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I feel like in my country we are very direct, that's probably why we can appear to be rude. I see what you mean. I think this mob mentality and silencing culture is not okay. And I wouldn't listen to someone, who uses "this person is this or that" to discredit others' opinion. We all should learn from GRRM. Ppl are grey  Our opinions are all subjective and mine should get a voice as much as mine.

I definitely think it's not okay to give statements like "this is a victim-shamer", but I think it would be extremely beneficial, if we all could be able to say to each other "this particular statement of yours sounds like v-s, racist, sexist etc.... to me personally, could you please elaborate on that or explain it"- the last part, if you are feeling polite , without consequences for the person addressed. Or explain to them right away why you feel that way about the particular statement and inquire, if that was what they meant.

We should be able to do that, not only here IMO. Because what happens otherwise is, a bunch of ppl - just thinking a bunch of stuff drifting father apart and you can never find at least some things in common or any kind of solutions. You should also be able to learn and change your mind, especially if it's just about your attitude, without any repercussions. And you can't learn without hearing other ppl's honest opinions, see things from their perspective and hear about their experiences.

But we all probably would need some lessons in effective and respectful communication to achieve that lol

 

I agree 100 %. We should be able to discuss anything & everything. And I also agree it's ok to say "this is how I'm interpreting your statement, if that's incorrect can you please clarify"

I think I would prefer your culture tbh. Bluntness is often named rudeness & it isn't always. There are those that behave rudely & try to pass it off as being blunt, but true bluntness I appreciate. It gets exhausting to constantly try to avoid offending someone - not because I want to offend them, I don't, which is why I try hard not to, but because it seems in this day & age you almost can never guess what may or may not be offensive to someone & you have to choose your words very wisely. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, corbon said:

And I didn't say she should have, or could have. 
But she should have, IMO, been able to understand that it was unlikely to turn out well. Based on general knowledge of Tywin's well known history (eg Reynes of Castamere

Yeah, I understand, I guess I just don't feel firm in that conviction because I don't know what knowledge she would or should have likely had. 

17 minutes ago, corbon said:

And maybe not too. My own position is that she likely didn't have the information she should have had. The discussion about whether any responsibility or 'blame' falls on her shoulders is predicated on her perhaps (because its a reasonable possibility) having 'enough' information but ignoring it for either teenage hormone reasons or (mis)calculated risk/reward reasons.

Agreed. She may have had this information & if she didn't, maybe she should have. I just don't know enough about it to make a firm opinion here. 

I feel comfortable saying she knew Tyrion was Highborn & she knew marrying above her station is going against the grain & could potentially end badly. So I suppose, in essence, I agree. Being gang raped is certainly ending badly, & while I agree she wouldn't have imagined that particular ending, it is encompassed within ending badly. 

21 minutes ago, corbon said:

think that even a crofter's daughter understands the lessons of the Reynes of Castamere. Whether she's able to put that together with Tyrion and Jaime who rescued her, is another thing entirely. Maybe she should have, maybe she wasn't equipped to. Most likely even if she was equipped to, she neglected those scary thoughts in favour of the enjoyable present. As teenagers are won't to do. Which doesn't absolve them, but does lessen their level of responsibility by some amount

Certainly. 

21 minutes ago, corbon said:

We are allowed to disagree on the point of how much she probably knew - or rather, assume different levels as a basis of discussion. 

For sure! I think we mostly agree, I'm just speculating on the opposite side from you - if that makes sense? Sometimes I'm writing on here & I think people are going to think I'm nuts! I wish I held the vocabulary to express myself clearly & concisely but I don't always. 

24 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yes, very much so. And in that, I think the responsibility falls in him. In thinking this way he neglected to consider Tysha and what might happen to her.

Indeed. His thoughts & actions are his own & he is to blame for them, good, bad, or indifferent. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For instance, a child, runs out in front of a car, gets hit & dies. That childs actions led directly to getting hit by that car. Did they know better? Perhaps, depending on their age. & Also (depending on their age) they hold responsibility for their actions. Their actions were their own. The child is to blame (or maybe the parent if child didn't know better) for running out in the street. They didn't do anything bad or evil & certainly didn't deserve to die for their actions but they are still responsible for running in the street. I hope I'm making sense because it's difficult for me to put my feelings in words here. 

I think I gotta sit this one out. It just hits to close to home for me. I have seen to many ppl suffer, because others focused on "why they ran in the street" lol. I understand this is just in theory. But I personally don't understand in light of the tragedy, that the kid is dead now, why one would focus on why it ran in the streets in the first place or how responsible it is for running in the streets- especially when running in the streets is a normal, human thing to do, a "normal mistake"- for me personally that's also not so interesting to examine tbh. 

If it doesn't lessen the guilt of the car (Tywin) I just don't understand, why you would look at it in the first place, if it was relatively normal human behavior not intended to hurt anyone. 

I find it more interesting, that apparently no one discusses the same case Tyrion later repeats with Shae completely aware of the consequences- IMO it would be interesting to discuss his guilt in this scenario. I also think he is responsible for his behavior as an adult with understanding of the situation on his wedding night, but I see nothing, that would indicate, that it is Tyrion's fault, that he "brought" Tysha in this situation. And I haven't come across anything, that would support this assumption. 

Normal punishment of course- but you wouldn't be a true teenager with your underdeveloped frontal lobe, if you didn't risk a bit of punishment for the one true love- again a normal human thing like running in the street, teenagers feel invincible, they feel like they can change the world. They feel like this love could never end, because it is just so magical.

We don't know enough about Tysha to really "judge" at all IMO. IMO Tysha truly loved him and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and I also think commoners were just very blind to the world of the nobility, uneducated and also her frontal lobe was underdeveloped as well, maybe she knew it was bad news, if they were discovered, maybe she anticipated a normal punishment, but wanted to risk it all for true love or maybe she thought Ty could protect her- when you're in love at that age you believe that. 

So IMO Tysha doesn't hold any responsibility, until we learn more, for running in the streets- she was only two and her parents didn't pay attention.

Edit:

A case, where I personally think it makes more sense and is more relevant to examine guilt and how it's distributed would be f.e. the case of Mycah. Because here I really think it lessens the Hound's guilt, that he was commanded to kill him, because he was told this boy attacked the crown prince and protecting the crown prince is basically the Hound's job description.

And I agree, that you can shame someone into silence by labeling them certain things, but it can also happen the other way around, that you are shamed into silence, because ppl constantly accuse you of wanting to do that to them /assume you are doing it or they also outright call you names themselves, that make you seem ridiculous. So like always two sides to every coin 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

31 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

think I gotta sit this one out. It just hits to close to home for me. I have seen to many ppl suffer, because others focused on "why they ran in the street" lol. I understand this is just in theory. But I personally don't understand in light of the tragedy, that the kid is dead now, why one would focus on why it ran in the streets in the first place or how responsible it is for running in the streets- especially when running in the streets is a normal, human thing to do, a "normal mistake"- for me personally that's also not so interesting to examine tbh. 

I completely understand if you don't wish to discuss this anymore. 

As I said, or at least was trying to say, I wouldn't have any urge or want to focus on why they ran into the street in a real life situation, unless it was my job to investigate or study this case for some reason. It becomes interesting to me in this setting, where we are analyzing fictional characters & their actions. 

I only used this particular hypothetical situation because I don't think most people would suggest it's the child's fault they got hit, or that the child is to blame here & thought it might be a less sensitive way to discuss it, but I understand why it might not be. 

35 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

doesn't lessen the guilt of the car (Tywin) I just don't understand, why you would look at it in the first place, if it was relatively normal human behavior not intended to hurt anyone

It doesn't lessen the guilt of the car at all. For me, personally, I think human behavior is quite interesting & in some cases think dissecting the behavior would be beneficial to the victim as well as others. In my hypothetical, it could serve as a warning to other children or parents, for instance. 

37 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

find it more interesting, that apparently no one discusses the same case Tyrion later repeats with Shae completely aware of the consequences- IMO it would be interesting to discuss his guilt in this scenario. I also think he is responsible for his behavior as an adult with understanding of the situation on his wedding night, but I see nothing, that would indicate, that it is Tyrion's fault, that he "brought" Tysha in this situation. And I haven't come across anything, that would support this assumption

I think it would be interesting as well & I'm sure, at some point, it has been discussed (as most things irt this series have) but I haven't seen it any time recently. 

What happened to Tysha is not Tyrion's fault. But some of his actions & thought processes allowed it to happen. He holds a responsibility, as we all do, to do our best to avoid harm coming to others. It can be said, in this particular case, he ignored or misjudged that responsibility because he engaged with Tysha knowing it had a very real potential to end badly. He did not order the gang rape of her, he loved her & I believe sincerely wanted what was best for her. He had every right, IMO, to marry whomever he wanted & was willing. That doesn't erase the fact that he knew, in universe, others could & would ignore that basic human right because that isn't how their society operates. He also knew what a ruthless man fathered him (even though he wouldn't have known what extent he would go to) he made a conscious choice to follow through with these actions knowing it would likely come with consequences. That doesn't make him wrong for doing it, not morally anyway. Legally, in universe, may be another story. I would never suggest that had Tyrion known the outcome he would think it was worth it, but not knowing the exact outcome, but knowing the possibility for a bad outcome, he hoped or thought it could be worth it. 

A person's choice to act willingly, is their own & regardless if the end result is good or bad, they still made that choice & hold responsibility for that choice. 

50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Normal punishment of course- but you wouldn't be a true teenager with your underdeveloped frontal lobe, if you didn't risk a bit of punishment for the one true love- again a normal human thing like running in the street, teenagers feel invincible, they feel like they can change the world. They feel like this love could never end, because it is just so magical

Agreed. 

50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

We don't know enough about Tysha to really "judge" at all IMO. IMO Tysha truly loved him and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and I also think commoners were just very blind to the world of the nobility, uneducated and also her frontal lobe was underdeveloped as well, maybe she knew it was bad news, if they were discovered, maybe she anticipated a normal punishment, but wanted to risk it all for true love or maybe she thought Ty could protect her- when you're in love at that age you believe that

I agree we don't know what Tysha knew & I don't think I can make judgement on what she should have known. But anticipating a normal punishment is still knowing the potential for a bad outcome. There isn't one single chance Tysha could have anticipated what actually happened but she did make a choice to act in a manner that could hold negative consequences. She is not to blame for what happened to her, that is Tywin's fault & her knowing her actions could have negative consequences does not lessen Tywin's guilt in the slightest. She does hold blame or responsibility for her own actions though. She married him willingly. She knew it could be bad. Like Tyrion, she probably expected it would be worth it - and had they suffered normal consequences for this, it may have been worth it to both of them. 

If I steal my mom's car & wreck it I'm to blame for that. I stole that car knowing I should not. I didn't intend for the car to be wrecked & I certainly didn't want the car to get wrecked but I likely knew it was a possibility when I stole the car, as there is always a possibility to wreck when driving. I didn't deserve to wreck a car, but my actions led directly to that car wrecking.  If I steal my mom's car, wreck it, & die, the consequences of my actions were not likely forseen, if I thought of that outcome at all it would have been a remote possibility in my mind. I didn't deserve to die for stealing a car, but I still own the responsibility of stealing the car, no matter the end result. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

case, where I personally think it makes more sense and is more relevant to examine guilt and how it's distributed would be f.e. the case of Mycah. Because here I really think it lessens the Hound's guilt, that he was commanded to kill him, because he was told this boy attacked the crown prince and protecting the crown prince is basically the Hound's job description

I think this would be a very interesting case to talk about! You should start a thread!

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I agree, that you can shame someone into silence by labeling them certain things, but it can also happen the other way around, that you are shamed into silence, because ppl constantly accuse you of wanting to do that to them /assume you are doing it or they also outright call you names themselves, that make you seem ridiculous. So like always two sides to every coin 

Oh absolutely & it is just as bad this way as the other. 

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

We don't know enough about Tysha to really "judge" at all IMO. IMO Tysha truly loved him and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise,

There is no evidence to suggest that she did. Tyrion clearly did not know much about her as Jaime telling him that she was a whore was enough to convince him that she was.

It is taken for granted that a homeless orphaned 14 year old girl would have been terrified about the consequences of angering Tywin. The same is true of his sons, any nobility of that stature. She would have obeyed as the consequences of not doing so would be fearful to someone of her position.

She will have gone along with whatever Tyrion did or suggested out of fear rather than out of 'true love'. She's known him for a week, he was a 13 year old dwarf with a monstrous reputation and the son of the highest power for a thousand miles.

On the other side, there is literally nothing wrong with a 14 year old homeless orphan accepting the luxuries that come from the affection of the son of a powerful Lord. May well be the difference between starving to death/freezing to death and living.

The idea that she loved him seems hugely unlikely given the two more likely scenarios for her returning Tyrion's affections, fear or actual need.

Quote

 

and I also think commoners were just very blind to the world of the nobility,

No, this is not the world GRRM is portraying, in fact he is frustrated at other authors who ignore the class divide in such cultures.

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

Tysha absolutely would have known there would be consequences for their/Tyrion's actions. Unfortunately, for a multitude of reasons, she was not really in a position to say no.

Quote

 

uneducated and also her frontal lobe was underdeveloped as well, maybe she knew it was bad news, if they were discovered, maybe she anticipated a normal punishment, but wanted to risk it all for true love or maybe she thought Ty could protect her- when you're in love at that age you believe that.

You are really over romanticizing something that more than likely was not like that at all.

 

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh yeah, me too. Tyrion is the good parts of Tywin, & some of the bad too but not all of the bad.

I actually don't think Tyrion is many of the good parts of Tywin. Tywin's devotion to his House/family is something that Tyrion has never really felt. Tywin was sent away as a child and still came to return and to serve (as did Kevan). Tyrion's never really felt that compulsion, and only sees his family as obstacles. Joffrey is a child, Tyrion is the adult in that relationship, yet the first time we see him encountering that 12 year old he is slapping him, threatens to scourge the innocent Tommen. He poisons his sister to get his way, threatens to kill his cousin if he won't obey him, ends up killing his father, promising to rape his sister before he murders her (or after, I can't recall) and plans on having his niece and nephew to war with each other just to spite his sister.

Tyrion is a pretty awful person, the two main differences between him and his father are

• his father has had the responsibility of rulership since he was a teenager. Even in our modern world the President of America will have more blood on his hands than someone not in such a leadership role. In the middle ages people in such positions were far worse. Playboys can only do so much damage, rulers of realms, even well-meaning ones, will do infinitely worse things. Had Tyrion been ruling for 40 years we'd have likely seen many an awful act perpetrated by him and we know many of his acts are motivated by spite
• Tyrion is a POV character, he gets to amuse the reader or have his own pity party to justify his actions and the reader will sympathize with him. Tyrion being witty means he gets treated better than other characters would behaving in a similar way ( one of the big differences between book Tywin and Charles Dance is that Dance is an incredibly gifted comic character, and Tywin's subtle black humour [if it even exists in the books] is brought to life by Dance making him, but not so much his book counterpart, a more sympathetic character). Just look at Bronn or the Mountain Clans, equally as monstrous as some of the goons his father employs, yet Bronn's amusing delivery takes away the menace of a man willing to murder children for the right price or the savagery of Clan leaders lessened by Tyrion's playful mocking of them.

 

And while Tywin is more than willing to do evil acts to further his cause, we can assume that he is an elitist piece of shit who genuinely thinks that Tysha is a whore (according to GRRM he does) or who does not see the smallfolk or even some of the lesser nobility as the same as the Lannisters.

Tyrion does not see the world like that, though he does still see it in the warped sense of a noble. When he looks on the dead eyes of the whore he has pretty much just raped, sees the scars on her back where she has been whipped for disobeying he simply shrugs it off. Tyrion still sees her as more of a human than his father ever would, which in some ways makes him worse. The guy who thinks Pigs or Cows have feelings and souls and eats them regardless is worse than the guy who thinks they are just stupid animals there to be consumed by their betters.

 

That is not to say that Tyrion does not have his good parts, but they are different to the few admirable aspects of his father. For the record I consider them both intelligent, but I do not consider intelligence to be good or bad, but a tool used by people.

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 

he should have not yelled at him, he would never get CR. Should have shown him some semblance of affection. A simple thank you could have gone a long way. Should have tried harder to fake it.

Tyrion had just confessed to threatening the lives of Tywin's grandsons, both of whom were royalty.

Tywin was absolutely right to be angry with Tyrion in that scenario. He could have had him. legally, executed for it.

From the perspective of Tywin, Tyrion had proven himself to be an awful patriarch for House Lannister. The role of which is protect the family. Not only is threatening your own family over the life of a whore bad by any Lords decree (Ned sure as shit would not be understanding if an adult Bran or Rickon had done that to his grandsons) but threatening the King jeopardizes his rule as a Lord which in turn theatens the safety of House Lannister. Irresponsible and idiotic.  Hugely deserving of chastisement in that situation. It constantly amazes how people just ignore the context of that entire conversation. Tyrion was not the victim in that conversation.  He was facing the consequences of his actions.

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree. It's almost like Tywin is a little inhuman. He doesn't seem to have a steady grasp of human emotions & how they work. He thinks he can rule through fear mongering & that works for a while but not forever 

That is really not true, on both accounts.

• He's not Sheldon, he is not some alien who does not understand human emotion. This is shown by the way he treats both Tyrion and Cersei in regards to their marriages. He paints Cersei the picture that she has no choice (when in fact if, like Tyrion points out in his thoughts, she does) which gets her to play along, and gives her a concession that she can pick her future husband or that she can argue her case why she should not. With Tyrion, a smarter more rebellious child he and Kevan have to convince Tyrion why it is a great deal. He plays to the personalities of both children to get what he wants.
• He absolutely does not rule just through fear (though obviously all Lords do have a certain amount of that, the Starks are no different in this case). We have seen Tywin's awar councils with his Westerland Lords as well as his Small councils. He does not rule those through fear, people are free to disagree with him and give their opinion without fear of the consequences. We also get a breakdown from Tyrion of how Tywin does things, by allowing his Lords to think they are contributing when in fact it is Kevan who is steering the conversation. This allows the Lords to think they are part of the decision making, he'd not need to go to such lengths if his rule was just on fear mongering or if he had no understanding of human emotion.

 

I understand that many of you hate Tywin, which is reasonable, he has sanctioned many evil acts, but I genuinely don't think many of you actually understand him. It shows in a lot of the takes many have on him in such conversations or why people theorize him doing outlandish things like kidnapping Lyanna or murdering the Targs at Summerhall.

 

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

actually don't think Tyrion is many of the good parts of Tywin. Tywin's devotion to his House/family is something that Tyrion has never really felt. Tywin was sent away as a child and still came to return and to serve (as did Kevan). Tyrion's never really felt that compulsion, and only sees his family as obstacles. Joffrey is a child, Tyrion is the adult in that relationship, yet the first time we see him encountering that 12 year old he is slapping him, threatens to scourge the innocent Tommen. He poisons his sister to get his way, threatens to kill his cousin if he won't obey him, ends up killing his father, promising to rape his sister before he murders her (or after, I can't recall) and plans on having his niece and nephew to war with each other just to spite his sister

I think Tywin's devotion to his family name (because I wouldn't really call it devotion to his family) is one of two good things about him. He is intelligent as well. 

Tyrion does not have that same devotion to the Lannister name but he does seem to have some loyalties to his family. He serves well enough each time he is given the opportunity to do so though, & is also intelligent. 

Joffrey is a vile little child & had he suffered some repercussions for his actions earlier on maybe he wouldn't have turned out so poorly. 

Threatening Tommen is not one of his better moments but I don't think he had any intention on actually doing it. 

His sister has also done some pretty horrible things to him & while two wrongs don't make a right, I don't feel very bad for her. 

His father has given him ample reason to hate him & no, people shouldn't ever kill outside of self defense but it's easy to understand how Tyrion got there. He also was set to be executed the next morning for something he didn't do & his father, arguably the most powerful man in the realm atm, did nothing to stop or help it. 

Tyrion certainly isn't all peaches & rainbows, but Tywin has done just as many, if not more horrific things. He wiped out the Reynes, ordered the murder of innocent children, the gang rape of Tysha, the raping & pillaging of the small folk - Tywin's deeds are typically on a larger scale than Tyrion's. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

his father has had the responsibility of rulership since he was a teenager. Even in our modern world the President of America will have more blood on his hands than someone not in such a leadership role. In the middle ages people in such positions were far worse. Playboys can only do so much damage, rulers of realms, even well-meaning ones, will do infinitely worse things. Had Tyrion been ruling for 40 years we'd have likely seen many an awful act perpetrated by him and we know many of his acts are motivated by spite

Sure, ruling gives the opportunity to do damage on a greater scale but when Tyrion gets the opportunity to rule something he doesn't do anything horrible, that I recall.

I think there is some evidence to suggest Tywin may have been a playboy of sorts himself. Mainly, having Shae in his bed. That makes him pretty hypocritical as well. 

Some of his acts are motivated by spite but not all. He defends the city pretty courageously & when he is acting hand he seems to have the well-being of KL in mind while giving orders. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion is a POV character, he gets to amuse the reader or have his own pity party to justify his actions and the reader will sympathize with him. Tyrion being witty means he gets treated better than other characters would behaving in a similar way ( one of the big differences between book Tywin and Charles Dance is that Dance is an incredibly gifted comic character, and Tywin's subtle black humour [if it even exists in the books] is brought to life by Dance making him, but not so much his book counterpart, a more sympathetic character). Just look at Bronn or the Mountain Clans, equally as monstrous as some of the goons his father employs, yet Bronn's amusing delivery takes away the menace of a man willing to murder children for the right price or the savagery of Clan leaders lessened by Tyrion's playful

Yeah, it definitely makes a difference to have a characters POV. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And while Tywin is more than willing to do evil acts to further his cause, we can assume that he is an elitist piece of shit who genuinely thinks that Tysha is a whore (according to GRRM he does) or who does not see the smallfolk or even some of the lesser nobility as the same as the Lannisters

Agreed.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion does not see the world like that, though he does still see it in the warped sense of a noble. When he looks on the dead eyes of the whore he has pretty much just raped, sees the scars on her back where she has been whipped for disobeying he simply shrugs it off. Tyrion still sees her as more of a human than his father ever would, which in some ways makes him worse. The guy who thinks Pigs or Cows have feelings and souls and eats them regardless is worse than the guy who thinks they are just stupid animals there to be consumed by their betters.

I get your point. In some ways, it does make the person worse. I do think Tyrion gets a point to the positive for recognizing things Tywin does not, for seeing people as "more human" than Tywin does. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's not Sheldon, he is not some alien who does not understand human emotion

Well, no & I didn't say that. I said it's almost like Tywin is a little inhuman & I think he does appear a little inhuman. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is shown by the way he treats both Tyrion and Cersei in regards to their marriages. He paints Cersei the picture that she has no choice (when in fact if, like Tyrion points out in his thoughts, she does) which gets her to play along, and gives her a concession that she can pick her future husband or that she can argue her case why she should not. With Tyrion, a smarter more rebellious child he and Kevan have to convince Tyrion why it is a great deal. He plays to the personalities of both children to get what he wants

Yeah he shows some understanding for how emotions work & how to manipulate them. But to constantly & consistently treat Tyrion poorly & never seem to have a clue that Tyrion may one day have enough & lash out at him, shows a disregard, either purposefully or unknowingly, for basic human emotions. If I treated someone, let alone my son, the way Tywin has Tyrion I would be fearful all the time of that persons reactions - because people can only take so much abuse & Tyrion had his fill.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He absolutely does not rule just through fear (though obviously all Lords do have a certain amount of that, the Starks are no different in this case). We have seen Tywin's awar councils with his Westerland Lords as well as his Small councils. He does not rule those through fear, people are free to disagree with him and give their opinion without fear of the consequences. We also get a breakdown from Tyrion of how Tywin does things, by allowing his Lords to think they are contributing when in fact it is Kevan who is steering the conversation. This allows the Lords to think they are part of the decision making, he'd not need to go to such lengths if his rule was just on fear mongering or if he had no understanding of human emotion

Sure but with his family he resorts to threats & repercussions if refused. He doesn't always rule them through fear but if other means don't work he has no issue threatening & carrying out those threats to get his way, particularly with Tyrion, which is what I was mainly speaking to. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

understand that many of you hate Tywin, which is reasonable, he has sanctioned many evil acts, but I genuinely don't think many of you actually understand him. It shows in a lot of the takes many have on him in such conversations or why people theorize him doing outlandish things like kidnapping Lyanna or murdering the Targs at Summerhall

I can't speak for anyone else but I love Tywin's character. He is a manipulative, mean, hypocritical & ruthless man but I enjoy reading about him. He is willing to do what needs to be done, which is an admirable trait. 

I've never theorized such. I think I understand him well enough it just boils down to whether or not you think the ends justify the means or if the action is deserved or justified. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is no evidence to suggest that she did. Tyrion clearly did not know much about her as Jaime telling him that she was a whore was enough to convince him that she was

The only evidence we have suggests she loved him. It may be faulty but it's all we have. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

She will have gone along with whatever Tyrion did or suggested out of fear rather than out of 'true love'. She's known him for a week, he was a 13 year old dwarf with a monstrous reputation and the son of the highest power for a thousand miles

We have no evidence that she went with him out of fear. 

I also don't think 13 year old Tyrion would have had a monstrous reputation. He probably didn't have much of a reputation at all. We don't really know if Tysha even knew at that point who, exactly he was. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The idea that she loved him seems hugely unlikely given the two more likely scenarios for her returning Tyrion's affections, fear or actual need

Her actions, as remembered by Tyrion, suggest this is not the case. 

 

[Hugorfonics]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

a homeless orphaned

She wasnt either of those things

Quote

Tysha was . . . she was what she seemed to be. A crofter's daughter, chance met on the road."

She had a father who had a home

[Nagini's Neville]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are really over romanticizing something that more than likely was not like that at all.

 

No, Tyrion might have romanticized it. And I've been reading his pov and recollection and honestly just haven't thought about it all enough yet. But you make some valid points, that I hadn't considered before. 

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, this is not the world GRRM is portraying, in fact he is frustrated at other authors who ignore the class divide in such cultures.

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

Tysha absolutely would have known there would be consequences for their/Tyrion's actions. Unfortunately, for a multitude of reasons, she was not really in a position to say no.

Thank you! I guess this is the "evidence" I was looking for. I guess I have misjudged GRRM's world then.

My opinion mostly originated from what Septon Meribald said

"Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They’ve heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know."

and stories like the the young wolf being a cannibal and his sister killed the king with a spell and turned into a wolf with wings and flew off. But that of course doesn't necessarily exclude the culture, that GRRM is painting in this interview. 

The out of this culture resulting power imbalance between Tyrion and Tysha could for sure put their relationship in a different light.

 

@corbon & also @Lyanna<3Rhaegar I guess you guys were right, I misjudged the world. So with that in mind I guess it's fine to examine the responsibility Tyrion and even Tysha might have had for their own actions, while keeping in mind that Tywin-the car lol- still is 100% to blame for what he did. I think BM makes some valid points about the power dynamic between Tyrion and Tysha and how that could have had an effect on their relationship, well illustrated by the GRRM quote he has given.

That being said very subjectively I think GRRM wanted Tyrion to have this one true love, that then was destroyed - but it is just a subjective opinion, that I can't back up through anything and I might very well be wrong.

IMO if GRRM wanted this to be "real love" he for sure made some logical mistakes or mistakes, that make the reader question, if this could have been real, as pointed out by BM.

F.e. why make this all last only 2 weeks? Why not maybe hide Tyrion's identity-at least in the beginning? (but maybe this would have been perceived as betraying her again) 

The problem is that all in all we have next to no objective information about what really happened IMO and I think it again says a lot about GRRM as a writer, that he lets his favorite character be perceived as either a rapist at 13 or solely a sexual abuse victim and doesn't bother to clarify what truly happened and how this event should be interpreted by the readers.

I understand, that you guys wanna examine Tysha's and Tyrion's potential responsibility for their actions and motivation behind it, I guess it's not really my thing for reasons I've already explained and because I also just think we don't have enough information to properly do that. It's just a guessing game.

It does however surprise me, that you guys think he had responsibility for his actions in this scenario- being a child and all, longing for love- but don't think he had responsibility for his actions on the wedding night, where he was 26, had a life time of experiences (also about his father etc) and had a complete understanding the situation, was privy to all of the political background, was self-aware and aware of "Sansa's nature" and situation.

Don't get me wrong I think it was a triumph for his character, that he did stop and didn't fully follow, what his father taught him early on, but I also think he did something wrong and has full responsibility for it.

I don't want to derail this thread, just mentioning it, because we didn't really get closure on it and it surprises me, that while I am fully willing to let Tyrion off the hook in this scenario for reasons I already mentioned, you guys wanna examine his responsibility here, while you didn't think he was responsible, when he was an adult, but I do. 

Maybe it was with the labeling again, because I called it sexual assault? I guess I just call things as they are defined and are not that sensitive about it. Of course like you guys, I would be extremely carful using that term irl. And definitely would not just throw that around.

And IMO Tyrion was also more aware, that Sansa didn't want this, then you guys were. So I guess, that's were our differentiating opinions  might come from. Anyway didn't want to completely start this subject again, but just think it's thematically fitting, since it is actually a similar scenario, involving to of the same characters Tywin and Tyrion- just older and a different girl.

For me by all means it's not a gender thing, also has nothing to do with the fact, that I really like Sansa as a character. Doesn't matter if it's Sansa, Jon, Tyrion or Dany. A lot of my "experience" about all of this actually comes from a male friend, who was raped by a girl. 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion had just confessed to threatening the lives of Tywin's grandsons, both of whom were royalty.

Tywin was absolutely right to be angry with Tyrion in that scenario. He could have had him. legally, executed for it.

From the perspective of Tywin, Tyrion had proven himself to be an awful patriarch for House Lannister. The role of which is protect the family. Not only is threatening your own family over the life of a whore bad by any Lords decree (Ned sure as shit would not be understanding if an adult Bran or Rickon had done that to his grandsons) but threatening the King jeopardizes his rule as a Lord which in turn theatens the safety of House Lannister. Irresponsible and idiotic.  Hugely deserving of chastisement in that situation. It constantly amazes how people just ignore the context of that entire conversation. Tyrion was not the victim in that conversation.  He was facing the consequences of his actions.

If that was an isolated incident, I'd agree. But Tywin has never shown Tyrion any love and he is his son and he has abused and neglected him. Any parent is to blame for those actions. Sure Tyrion threatening his grandsons deserves chastising, but Tywin doesn't manage his house in a psychological clever way. A "gifted" lord would have made sure there is unity amongst his family and that he can use their individual talents to benefit his house. He shouldn't have done what he did to Tysha. A "normal" punishment would have been enough, he should have let Tyrion keep a mistress or at least not threaten to kill the next sex worker. All of this would have been psychological measures to keep his son happy and would have helped to not have him turn against him in the end. Tywin also wasn't blind to Cersei's nature and the animosity between her and Tyrion. It would have been his responsibility to make sure they get along and work together instead of against each other. So I keep my opinion here, that Tywin was psychologically quite dumb, couldn't get over himself, couldn't act rationally in regards to his children- the results were Tyrion and Cersei (Jaime couldn't be "used" in an optimal way as well)- and it killed him in the end. He is like a coach, that breaks all of his top athletes, because they are sensitive and he just verbally abuses them all the time. A really successful coach knows what to say to which athlete to get the right results. And by treating Tyrion the way that he did, he wasted his talents for house Lannister.

[Unacosamedarisa]

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She had a father who had a home

No, she didn’t. She was an orphan, at least as far as Tyrion knew... 

Quote

“By the time he came trotting back, I'd gotten a name out of her, and a story. She was a crofter's child, orphaned when her father died of fever, on her way to … well, nowhere, really.”  AGoT, Tyrion VI

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No, she didn’t. She was an orphan, at least as far as Tyrion knew... 

My fault. Thank you 

Sorry Bernie

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but don't think he had responsibility for his actions on the wedding night, where he was 26, had a life time of experiences (also about his father etc) and had a complete understanding the situation, was privy to all of the political background, was self-aware and aware of "Sansa's nature" and situation.

Oh, he does have responsibility for his actions irt to Sansa & the wedding night. I think where we mostly disagree there is irt what he should have known or perceived from Sansa herself. There, as with here, I understand why Tysha & Tyrion took the actions they did & don't think those actions are wrong or bad but they still are to blame for their own actions. Sansa too, she had actions that played a role in that situation also. They weren't wrong or bad & they were completely understandable but they are still hers & she holds the responsibility for them. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

59 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sansa too, she had actions that played a role in that situation also. They weren't wrong or bad & they were completely understandable but they are still hers & she holds the responsibility for them. 

yeah, I guess, that is where our opinions are different.

Take the example of Tyrion. We don't know exactly what happened. But just presume, that Tyrion was traumatized, horrified, in absolute terror of what he had just witnessed in front of him. Then his father tells him "Now you Tyrion". Tyrion does absolutely not want to do this, he is in absolute terror, but his body is "betraying" him and because of all of the psychological power his father holds over him, his age and a lifetime of abuse he ends up doing it against his will.

If this is what happened ( for what we don't have sufficient evidence, but is what I believed happened) then Tyrion holds 0% responsibly for his own actions, because he was in a traumatic situation, trying to survive and indeed he was raped himself.

The same way I see Sansa's situation she was in a traumatizing situation (preceded by a year of psychological and physical abuse, trauma and imprisonment) she doesn't want to do this, but because of the psychological power the Lannisters hold over her and a year of trauma and abuse she does against her will, therefore she holds 0 responsibility for her actions, her body is just trying to survive.

Tyrion holds now psychological power over Sansa the same way, that Tywin did over Tyrion and the outside information about the situation should have been enough for Tyrion to not let her undress for him.

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think Tywin's devotion to his family name (because I wouldn't really call it devotion to his family) is one of two good things about him. He is intelligent as well. 

Agree. But I don't necessarily see as intelligence as a good or bad virtue. Littlefinger's intelligence has been used to bring the realm into abject chaos. It is a tool that can be used by either good or bad people.

Tywin understanding that peace and prosperity is good for the realm and using his intelligence to get that is a pragmatic choice on his part rather than a good/altruistic one. Similarly, using his intelligence, such as the crippling of the Riverlands to better win the war, is an intelligent move that brings disaster to the people of the Riverlands. Again the choice is not necessarily an evil one but a pragmatic one, but the consequences are still bad for many people.

I personally don't see some attributes like intelligence or courage as being good or bad.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion does not have that same devotion to the Lannister name but he does seem to have some loyalties to his family.

No. He has some loyalties to a select number of people, one of which is Jaime.

But he cares little about his family, they are obstacles in his way. We see this with Lancel, his cousin who he threatens to have murdered if he won't obey. Or Tommen, who will be scourged as a means to get vengeance on his sister. Tommen and Myrcella, children he might actually like, are nothing more than pawns in his 'war' with Cersei.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

He serves well enough each time he is given the opportunity to do so though, & is also intelligent. 

He's not really serving. It is in his own interests to do so. The war was started over him. When he is asked to do things to serve the family, such as protecting the rear, he refuses. He has to be 'bribed' with choice positions to 'serve'.

Te difference here between his father and uncle are pretty big. They chose to serve their Houses best interests, chose to work for it from a very early age. Tyrion's not done the same, he's been thrust into it due to the Starks and Arryns accusations.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Joffrey is a vile little child

I agree, but he is still 12 and the heir of the throne. Slapping him and mocking him is not the way to improve him as a person.

I think the lesson Tywin gave Tyrion abhorrent. While I can explain why he did what he did, I don't think he should ever have done it (regardless of the society). My position, I hope on this, is pretty clear.

At the same time many of the people who are defending 13 year old Tyrion for being a child, are never as charitable towards 12 year old Joffrey or even cat skinning 4 year old Joffrey.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

& had he suffered some repercussions for his actions earlier on maybe he wouldn't have turned out so poorly. 

He had done. Stannis thought the boy dead when Robert beat him, knocked his milk teeth out.

And equally, maybe had he been shown more guidance, more love he would have turned out better. Tyrion certainly does not try to do that.

More importantly Tyrion's barbs and slaps against Joffrey is not done in some way to teach him. It is done to belittle him. He enjoys it. He says as much. This is my point about loved characters, people will go out of their way to build excuses for them for their behaviour.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Threatening Tommen is not one of his better moments but I don't think he had any intention on actually doing it. 

Yes, he did. Not to be rude, but this line of thought is often repeated in the fandom and every time the relevant quote is brought out to show that Tyrion did mean it it is quickly forgotten again as people don't like the idea of loved characters doing bad things to innocent people.

"I promised my sister I would treat Tommen as she treated Alayaya," he remembered aloud. He felt as though he might retch. "How can I scourge an eight-year-old boy?" But if I don't, Cersei wins.

"You don't have Tommen," Bronn said bluntly. "Once she learned that Ironhand was dead, the queen sent the Kettleblacks after him, and no one at Rosby had the balls to say them nay."

Another blow; yet a relief as well, he must admit it. He was fond of Tommen.

 

Lannisters pay their debts. They don't make threats they are not prepared to carry out. Whether that is Jaime threatening to trebuchet Edmure's unborn child or Tyrion's threatening his nephew.

 

The entire reason Tywin is dead is because he raised his children to believe this. In the same interview that GRRM points out that to Tywin that Tysha, in his eyes, was a whore he also points out that Tyrion had no choice but to kill his father once he said 'whore' again. Tyrion made the threat and Tywin called his bluff.

 

Lannister's don't make threats they are not prepared to carry out. Even if that means hurting people they don't have an issue with. 

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

His sister has also done some pretty horrible things to him & while two wrongs don't make a right, I don't feel very bad for her. 

She's the Queen, his superior in a feudal society. The same reason why Tyrion gets to disrespect the people he considers beneath him, the same is true in his relationship with the Queen.

It is up to Tyrion to make it work with his nephew, the heir, or his sister the Queen. Again, the parallel is clear with his father and his relationship with his King, his former best friend. Tywin sucked it up, out his ego aside when dealing with someone who was awful to him.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

His father has given him ample reason to hate him

No doubt. But also ample reason to also not hate him. Some characters have a way of only looking at how bad they have been treated by others.

Tywin's a cold-hearted bastard, to be sure. But we know how Westeros treats dwarfs, we know how some Lords treat the oddities in their families. Tyrion could have been killed as a babe, fed poppy of the seed most of his life and kept in some tower of Casterly Rock. 

Instead Tyrion is one of the best educated men in Westeros, has been able to do as he pleased around Westeros, using his father's money to get what he wants and his father's name to get himself out of the trouble he creates for himself. He's made the most powerful dwarf in the history of Westeros (even in our own world, has a dwarf ever risen to the equivalent of Tyrion's position?). Is married to one of the most prestigious and (yuck GRRM) desired Brides of Westeros.

Tyrion has been sheltered by his father to how other dwarfs are treated, we see that from how Penny is amazed at how Tyrion speaks and to the 'big folk'.

So yes, Tywin has given his son ample reason to hate him, but also ample reason to be grateful to him (I won't say love).

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

& no, people shouldn't ever kill outside of self defense but it's easy to understand how Tyrion got there. He also was set to be executed the next morning for something he didn't do & his father, arguably the most powerful man in the realm atm, did nothing to stop or help it. 

That is wrong. He literally offered Tyrion an escape to the Watch and Tyrion went out of his way to piss on that deal.

To say he did nothing is either wrong or just a complete misreading of the situation.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion certainly isn't all peaches & rainbows, but Tywin has done just as many, if not more horrific things.

Yes. I guarantee your parents have, in their life time, done more horrific things that you have. I guarantee that the President/Prime Minister of your country has done many more horrific things than you have.

Tywin's been a ruler for 40 years. It should surprise no one that he has done more horrific things than his son who was briefly in charge of Kings Landing for just under a year.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

He wiped out the Reynes, ordered the murder of innocent children, the gang rape of Tysha, the raping & pillaging of the small folk - Tywin's deeds are typically on a larger scale than Tyrion's. 

No shit. You are beating a dead horse on this one.

Do you not see the difference here? Do you think Obama has more blood on his hands than his daughters? Do you think there is a logical reason for that?

All leaders in Westeros have subordinates who have raped and pillaged in their lords name. Do you not think Tyrion's goons in Kings Landing commited their own rapes and pillages while 'enforcing the law'?

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, ruling gives the opportunity to do damage on a greater scale but when Tyrion gets the opportunity to rule something he doesn't do anything horrible, that I recall.

lol sure? He has someone turned into stew. Bronn, the person he puts in charge of the defences, has criminals/undesirables murdered who may cause a problem if the city is under siege.

He threatens the lives of innocents, his nephew Tommen, the children of Janos Slynt to get his way.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think there is some evidence to suggest Tywin may have been a playboy of sorts himself.

Then, not to be rude, we have a very different concept of the word.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Mainly, having Shae in his bed.

Having Discreet sex with a whore in the Middle Ages does not make someone a playboy.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

That makes him pretty hypocritical as well. 

How so?

Do you misunderstand why Tywin is upset with his father and son and how they elevate paramours/whores over the safety of their family?

Question? If you drink alcohol can you no longer warn alcoholics of the danger of their actions without being a hypocrite?

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Some of his acts are motivated by spite but not all.

No one claimed all.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

He defends the city pretty courageously

Sure, but it is not selfless motivation. The city falls and Tyrion falls with it, or shortly after it as he is hated as much as his father is.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

& when he is acting hand he seems to have the well-being of KL in mind while giving orders. 

He has the self interests of the Crown in hand while giving orders.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I get your point. In some ways, it does make the person worse. I do think Tyrion gets a point to the positive for recognizing things Tywin does not, for seeing people as "more human" than Tywin does. 

That seems to be a point borne out of life experience. Very hard to see himself as a superior being, like much of the nobility do, when you are born into a dwarf's body.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, no & I didn't say that. I said it's almost like Tywin is a little inhuman & I think he does appear a little inhuman. 

Reread what you actually said. You said he does not understand human emotion. That does not seem to be true.

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah he shows some understanding for how emotions work & how to manipulate them. But to constantly & consistently treat Tyrion

He does not though.

Does he treat Tyrion poorly in their interactions in the first book?

Does he treat Tyrion poorly when he constantly visited his son on his death bed?

Does he treat Tyrion poorly when he offers him the marriage to Sansa?

Does he treat Tyrion poorly in their Small Council meetings?

Does he treat Tyrion poorly when he offers him a trial rather than execute him on the spot for the murder of his grandson, the King?

Does he treat Tyrion poorly when he has Kevan offer him a deal to join the Watch?

For the vast majority of their interactions in the series we don't see what you are describing. So to label it consistent is utter tripe.

We do see Tywin treat Tyrion poorly in one conversation when Tywin finds out that Tyrion threatened the lives of his grandsons. Is that not cause to be upset?

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Question? If you drink alcohol can you no longer warn alcoholics of the danger of their actions without being a hypocrite?

IMO if you don't practice what you preach it makes you a hypocrite. 

Also there is a difference between an openly alcoholic person given friendly warnings/advice to others and being an alcoholic, but hiding it and simultaneously telling your son, if he ever has one drink someone has to die for it.

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The only evidence we have suggests she loved him. It may be faulty but it's all we have. 

No. Tyrion thought she loved him, then he also thought she was a whore. He also can't remeber how many men raped her, half a dozen, a score or a hundred.

It is abundantly clear that Tyrion did not know Tysha at all and does not have a clear memory of what happened.

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We have no evidence that she went with him out of fear. 

Common sense. She could hardly say no.

This happens in our own world, powerful men being ignorant of the pressure they put on women to obey. To think this does not exist a thousand times more in the medieval world when the son of the ruler of the lands takes a fancy to a peasant.

What is more likely. She went with a 13 year old dwarf because

• She was in love with this person she has just met
• She did not realize that she could say no, or was fearful of the consequences of saying no (Tyrion's reputation was monstrous)
• She, being homeless and an oprhan, had few other options in the medieval world

Since Tysha is not a POV character and we don't get to see the scene, only the idealized memory of their time together from Tyrion, them I'm hugely sceptical about his recollection of events.

 

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I also don't think 13 year old Tyrion would have had a monstrous reputation.

Then you are wrong. He had that reputaion from birth, Oberyn, from Dorne, points this out.

The smallfolk of Kings Landing are hugely judgemental of him, beleiving the worst. The smallfolk of the Westerlands are going to be no different.

Undeserved, but Tyrion's reputation was bad.

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

We don't really know if Tysha even knew at that point who, exactly he was. 

Please! Just one of the many 13 year old dwarfs with their own servants, guards, unlimited amount of money to hire septons and lodgings for the two of them as well as brother's who are in the Kingsguard.

I don't know if you are purposefully being disingenuous in this conversation, but she will have clearly known who both Jaime and Tyrion were.

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Her actions, as remembered by Tyrion, suggest this is not the case.

Do tell?

[Bernie Mac]

5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO if you don't practice what you preach it makes you a hypocrite. 

Tywin is not angry with his father and son about having sex, it is about them putting their paramours/whores above the safety of their House.

That is what Tywin puts a stop to.

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"

Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."

"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"

This is what Tywin is angry about. Tyrion has been screwing whores his entire life, Tywin only had a problem when it hurt the House.

"Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?"

"I believe I am," he said, bristling. "I confess, I cannot prove it. Though no one can say I have not tried. Why, I plant my little seeds just as often as I can . . ."

"In the gutters and the ditches," finished Lord Tywin, "and in common ground where only bastard weeds take root. It is past time you kept your own garden."

 

People really seem to ignore the context of that entire exchange.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Agree. But I don't necessarily see as intelligence as a good or bad virtue. Littlefinger's intelligence has been used to bring the realm into abject chaos. It is a tool that can be used by either good or bad people

Yeah, you're right there. Intelligence is not necessarily good or bad. 

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin understanding that peace and prosperity is good for the realm and using his intelligence to get that is a pragmatic choice on his part rather than a good/altruistic one. Similarly, using his intelligence, such as the crippling of the Riverlands to better win the war, is an intelligent move that brings disaster to the people of the Riverlands. Again the choice is not necessarily an evil one but a pragmatic one, but the consequences are still bad for many people

I would disagree slightly here. Someone's actions do speak to their core being regardless of the outcome. I think the choice to decimate the RL is a bad/wrong/evil one. A different person may have used a different, less bloody tactic to achieve the same goal. 

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No. He has some loyalties to a select number of people, one of which is Jaime.

He has some knowledge, that used in the proper way, could decimate his house (the twincest, the acting King is a bastard, his father's orders irt Elia) but he hides this. I would argue he hides this because of the loyalty to his family, although I'm open to other explanations. 

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

But he cares little about his family, they are obstacles in his way. We see this with Lancel, his cousin who he threatens to have murdered if he won't obey. Or Tommen, who will be scourged as a means to get vengeance on his sister. Tommen and Myrcella, children he might actually like, are nothing more than pawns in his 'war' with Cersei

I don't think so. I think his thoughts irt Tommen & Myrcella show he doesn't think of them as merely pawns. & As you've said he likes/loves Jaime. Even Cersei & Tywin, who he really has no cause to be loyal or nice to, he doesn't use everything he can against them. Tywin, paid the ultimate price in the end but he doesn't try to orchestrate their downfall. 

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's not really serving. It is in his own interests to do so. The war was started over him. When he is asked to do things to serve the family, such as protecting the rear, he refuses. He has to be 'bribed' with choice positions to 'serve

The same can be said about anyone then. Tywin wasn't truly serving, it's in his own best interest to do so. He is no warrior & suggesting he "protect the rear" is a joke. He serves in other ways & does so fairly well. He also does oblige his father & lead the clansmen into battle, even though he has no business doing so. 

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Te difference here between his father and uncle are pretty big. They chose to serve their Houses best interests, chose to work for it from a very early age. Tyrion's not done the same, he's been thrust into it due to the Starks and Arryns accusations

Tyrion was never given the opportunity to do the same. In fact, he has been kept from his birthright intentionally. If Tywin truly had his family's best interest at heart he would understand that preparing Tyrion to rule as his heir, starting the moment he became his heir, would have been beneficial. Instead he disregards Tyrion's birthright & lays all his hopes on the fact that Jaime will one day agree to remove himself from the KG - speaking of which, he hasn't given Jaime any teachings on ruling either even expecting him to rule when he is gone. 

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

agree, but he is still 12 and the heir of the throne. Slapping him and mocking him is not the way to improve him as a person

Maybe not. Generally speaking I don't think violence is ever the answer. I would be lying if I said I didn't think Joff deserved to be smacked though. It may have been more beneficial for Tyrion to try to teach Joff, but I think it would have been a lost cause. Still he could have tried. 

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

think the lesson Tywin gave Tyrion abhorrent. While I can explain why he did what he did, I don't think he should ever have done it (regardless of the society). My position, I hope on this, is pretty clear

Yes. 

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

At the same time many of the people who are defending 13 year old Tyrion for being a child, are never as charitable towards 12 year old Joffrey or even cat skinning 4 year old Joffrey

Indeed. It's much easier to like it defend Tyrion than it is Joffrey but I do hold some sympathy irt to Joff, especially 4 year old Joff. 

22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He had done. Stannis thought the boy dead when Robert beat him, knocked his milk teeth out

For sure, iirc Cersei does not allow Joff to be disciplined again after this though right? Not that I'm suggesting this form of discipline is right or helpful, I'm saying the lack of any discipline is just as bad for Joff as this is. 

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And equally, maybe had he been shown more guidance, more love he would have turned out better. Tyrion certainly does not try to do that.

Agreed 

24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

More importantly Tyrion's barbs and slaps against Joffrey is not done in some way to teach him. It is done to belittle him. He enjoys it. He says as much. This is my point about loved characters, people will go out of their way to build excuses for them for their behaviour

Oh, I'm not excusing it, I'm saying why it didn't bother me much & why I don't consider it as bad as some of the things Tywin has done. 

26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, he did. Not to be rude, but this line of thought is often repeated in the fandom and every time the relevant quote is brought out to show that Tyrion did mean it it is quickly forgotten again as people don't like the idea of loved characters doing bad things to innocent people

I'm aware of the quote but he later says he didn't mean it &/or would not have gone through with it. I'm paraphrasing obviously but can look for the quote if you'd like. 

27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The entire reason Tywin is dead is because he raised his children to believe this. In the same interview that GRRM points out that to Tywin that Tysha, in his eyes, was a whore he also points out that Tyrion had no choice but to kill his father once he said 'whore' again. Tyrion made the threat and Tywin called his bluff

Absolutely. But don't you think that speaks to Tywins lack of understanding irt human emotions & how they are formed? He knows he has raised his children in this manner yet when Tyrion has a loaded crossbow pointed directly at him & tells him not to use that word again he does anyway. I presume Tywin did not have a death wish, so saying it again shows he did not comprehend Tyrion was going to pull that trigger & he should have. 

30 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

She's the Queen, his superior in a feudal society. The same reason why Tyrion gets to disrespect the people he considers beneath him, the same is true in his relationship with the Queen

Sure, on a legal level this is how it works. But when we are speaking directly to how vile or evil ones actions are it's worth taking into account what led up to that action IMO. 

31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is up to Tyrion to make it work with his nephew, the heir, or his sister the Queen. Again, the parallel is clear with his father and his relationship with his King, his former best friend. Tywin sucked it up, out his ego aside when dealing with someone who was awful to him

Maybe we just have different ideas of what is right & wrong, good & bad? I don't think this is necessarily a good thing. 

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No doubt. But also ample reason to also not hate him. Some characters have a way of only looking at how bad they have been treated by others

So do some people IRL because it's the bad that stings. It's the bad that sticks. It's very hard to believe someone doesn't have an ulterior motive when doing something that is seemingly good for you when you know they have done things so terribly wrong to you previously. 

36 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin's a cold-hearted bastard, to be sure. But we know how Westeros treats dwarfs, we know how some Lords treat the oddities in their families. Tyrion could have been killed as a babe, fed poppy of the seed most of his life and kept in some tower of Casterly Rock

Yes, but the in universe standard of treatment to an unwanted child does not meet my personal moral standard. Again, if we are discussing horrible/vile deeds, I count his treatment of Tyrion regardless of the standard of treatment in universe. 

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Instead Tyrion is one of the best educated men in Westeros, has been able to do as he pleased around Westeros, using his father's money to get what he wants and his father's name to get himself out of the trouble he creates for himself. He's made the most powerful dwarf in the history of Westeros (even in our own world, has a dwarf ever risen to the equivalent of Tyrion's position?). Is married to one of the most prestigious and (yuck GRRM) desired Brides of Westeros

Yeah, he has luxuries never afforded to a dwarf born to a low-born family. I don't know if we have had a dwarf risen to the level Tyrion gets to but it says naught to what I'm saying. His father is mean & cruel to him. 

He may have once been the most powerful dwarf in Westeros but he certainly doesn't hold much power or luxuries presently. Likewise, when has another high-born noble been sold into slavery? Tywin isn't real loving with any of his children but he is definitely worse to Tyrion. 

43 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion has been sheltered by his father to how other dwarfs are treated, we see that from how Penny is amazed at how Tyrion speaks and to the 'big folk'

But he isn't treated the way Tywin treats his other children. His value as a human being isn't lessened by being a dwarf & if anyone should know that, it's his own father. 

44 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

So yes, Tywin has given his son ample reason to hate him, but also ample reason to be grateful to him (I won't say love).

Sure, he has given him ample reason to be grateful as well. 

46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is wrong. He literally offered Tyrion an escape to the Watch and Tyrion went out of his way to piss on that deal

I stand corrected. What I should have said is he doesn't do anything to help his son prove his innocence or stop or speak out against the mockery of a trial that was held. 

47 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. I guarantee your parents have, in their life time, done more horrific things that you have

My parents? Hardly. You would be 100% wrong in that guarantee. 

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin's been a ruler for 40 years. It should surprise no one that he has done more horrific things than his son who was briefly in charge of Kings Landing for just under a year.

If we are comparing who is worse, or more vile, but cannot compare who has done more horrific or vile things then the scales are slightly skewed no? 

Being in charge longer does not necessitate doing more vile deeds. There are plenty of rulers who could have ruled as long & committed much less atrocities. 

50 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No shit. You are beating a dead horse on this one

I don't think I am. I only said it once & it was in direct response to you listing some of Tyrions vile deeds. 

51 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do you not see the difference here? Do you think Obama has more blood on his hands than his daughters? Do you think there is a logical reason for that?

It isn't just about who has more blood on their hands. It's about who they are, their actions, how they think & feel. 

I have no reason to think Obama's daughters are evil little things but it's completely possible that they have committed vile acts that would trump their father's. 

Cutting up the post because I'm on my phone & it isn't working right.