Tysha - who is to blame?

[corbon]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We agree on much of this, and disagree on parts. Most of which are covered in my responses above.

Right. Its a matter of degree really. I think Tyrion should have understood Tywin a little bit better than you do. I don't agree at all with the 'ancient history' sort of comment, nor that Tyrion could have used the example of Hoster and Egg to think there might be leniency for Tysha. I'm actually surprised that anyone, least of all someone who's judgement I widely respect, could think that.

[SFDanny]

19 hours ago, corbon said:

Right. Its a matter of degree really. I think Tyrion should have understood Tywin a little bit better than you do. I don't agree at all with the 'ancient history' sort of comment, nor that Tyrion could have used the example of Hoster and Egg to think there might be leniency for Tysha. I'm actually surprised that anyone, least of all someone who's judgement I widely respect, could think that.

And you know I respect your judgement as well, my friend. We will have to continue to disagree on the Hoster and Egg examples, especially the example of Duncan and Jenny. I think that is just the kind of example that would inspire young lovers involved in love affairs crossing class barriers. And I think that is even more true for teenagers like Tyrion and Tysha. What happens between the Blackfish and his brother Hoster is much more obscure. It doesn't included people falling in love. It only speaks to people not accepting forced marriages. But it is a contemporary example of neighboring nobles on the same level of the Lannisters, so it is possible Tyrion could know about it.

We will also have to disagree about whether or not a thirteen year old Tyrion might think the stories of the destruction of the Reynes and the Tarbecks are part of the distant past that don't provide an example for what he should expect his father to do to either Tyrion himself or Tysha. Tyrion is a very intelligent man, and was likely a very intelligent thirteen year old. However, it takes a leap to predict Tywin's behavior based on events in which he put down a rebellion of his bannermen. Tyrion isn't planning on deposing his father. He is planning on staying married to someone he loves.

I do think we agree that Tyrion did not give anywhere enough thought to what Tywin might do to Tysha. His "Jenny." I do think he understood his father would be angry with him and thought he could withstand that anger. He was absolutely wrong on his estimates on so many levels.

[corbon]

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And you know I respect your judgement as well, my friend. We will have to continue to disagree on the Hoster and Egg examples, especially the example of Duncan and Jenny. I think that is just the kind of example that would inspire young lovers involved in love affairs crossing class barriers.

Indeed it is. 
I just think "Tywin Lannister" is not only a much more important point, but a much more immediate point to Tyrion more than anyone.

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And I think that is even more true for teenagers like Tyrion and Tysha. What happens between the Blackfish and his brother Hoster is much more obscure. It doesn't included people falling in love. It only speaks to people not accepting forced marriages. But it is a contemporary example of neighboring nobles on the same level of the Lannisters, so it is possible Tyrion could know about it.

Yeah, I thought about it being more obscure and probably unknown, but didn't think that was a counterpoint worth making. The point lives or dies I think on Duncan/Jenny vs. Tywin Lannister.

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We will also have to disagree about whether or not a thirteen year old Tyrion might think the stories of the destruction of the Reynes and the Tarbecks are part of the distant past that don't provide an example for what he should expect his father to do to either Tyrion himself or Tysha.

Not a direct example. But I think Tyrion of all people has to understand that his father is somewhat exceptional in his responses to people who cross him.

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Tyrion is a very intelligent man, and was likely a very intelligent thirteen year old. However, it takes a leap to predict Tywin's behavior based on events in which he put down a rebellion of his bannermen. Tyrion isn't planning on deposing his father. He is planning on staying married to someone he loves.

The point isn't in predicting Tywin's specific behaviour, its understanding that he is a particularly dangerous man for even the rich and powerful to cross. Considerably more so than normal men.

And I am also sure that Tyrion would have had that reinforced from other unnamed, undescribed instances as he grew up. Tywin was never sweetness and light around Tyrion, and I am sure the entire household knew not to cross him in any way. And I am sure that there are other examples through Tyrion's youth of people who did cross Tywin, and suffered badly for it. Thats based on Tywin's character throughout the books and also general human behaviour. People are people and make mistakes or take risks that fail. I don't believe its reasonable to assume that Tywin never showed his ruthless and brutal character before the Tysha affair.

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I do think we agree that Tyrion did not give anywhere enough thought to what Tywin might do to Tysha. His "Jenny." I do think he understood his father would be angry with him and thought he could withstand that anger. He was absolutely wrong on his estimates on so many levels.

Yep. 

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Who is to blame about Tysha?

Two are to be blamed about the whole situation.

Tywin is to be blamed for doing what he did, he knew Tysha wasn't a whore, but still wanted to teach Tyrion a lesson, probably because he was in love with someone who was lowborn.

Jaime for lying to Tyrion, he basically did as his father had commanded him to do, he made Tyrion believe that Tysha was in love with him, then he made Tyrion believe Tysha was a whore.

That is messed up, considering Tyrion had actually found someone who truly loved him despite of him being a dwarf and who was even overlooking the fact he was a Lannister.