Arakan Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, JoannaL said: Please tone it down. Yes , some numbers will not be 100% correct, and that will happen almost everywhere and mostly without bad intend. But speaking of western nations, to be or not to be a good leader in this crisis has nothing to do with the general political direction of that goverment, and more with the person him/herself. If you want to critisise a government, is it not more appropriate to critisese our own? for example: in my city we now have to have breathing protection to go to the supermarket, but it is absolutely impossible to buy any. People should sew their own. I was never very good in needle work and we do not have a sewing machine so this will be interesting... It has a lot to do with ideology of that leader. See Trump. You are from Jena? AFAIK it’s from next Monday on. Yes mask situation is ridiculous. All over Europe. It cannot be helped right now. We will have to use scarfs which is allowed. So you do not have to sew. I hope the situation gets better but I don’t believe it. A simple product which is not produced in Europe anymore. Blame the system. ETA of course, „here“ it is without bad intend and without malice. But in Iran and China we subconsciously ALWAYS insinuate exactly this. I call it bias and in quite a few cases at least subconscious racism and bigotry. Maybe think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Arakan said: It has a lot to do with ideology of that leader. See Trump. You are from Jena? AFAIK it’s from next Monday on. Yes mask situation is ridiculous. All over Europe. It cannot be helped right now. We will have to use scarfs which is allowed. So you do not have to sew. I hope the situation gets better but I don’t believe it. A simple product which is not produced in Europe anymore. Blame the system. our family will survive the sewing crisis... but my point is that you are wrong to blame "the system". It sounds a little bit like RT trolling. Though a lot of small and big mistakes were made - some out of incompetence and this is very unfortunate- , our western system is strong and not to blame and will survive this crisis. I do not want to live in China even if being dictatorial may be an advantage in this crisis in the short run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Just now, JoannaL said: our family will survive the sewing crisis... but my point is that you are wrong to blame "the system". It sounds a little bit like RT trolling. Though a lot of small and big mistakes were made - some out of incompetence and this is very unfortunate- , our western system is strong and not to blame and will survive this crisis. I do not want to live in China even if being dictatorial may be an advantage in this crisis in the short run. That’s not the point. So many people accused China and Iran of cover ups etc. For me there is a lot of subconscious racism and bigotry in play. „We“ are not better when it comes to „tuning“ the scale of the pandemic. Where you want to live is up to you. It has nothing to do with my point. It’s a strawman argument. To end this, I quote the sermont on the Mount (KJB): Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. ... You hypocrite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, JoannaL said: our family will survive the sewing crisis... but my point is that you are wrong to blame "the system". It sounds a little bit like RT trolling. Though a lot of small and big mistakes were made - some out of incompetence and this is very unfortunate- , our western system is strong and not to blame and will survive this crisis. I do not want to live in China even if being dictatorial may be an advantage in this crisis in the short run. So you instead blame our government that production of medical equipment has been outsourced:)). You didn’t get it. That is free market for you. Not the „fault“ of the government. It’s a feature, not a bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Arakan said: So you instead blame our government that production of medical equipment has been outsourced:)). You didn’t get it. That is free market for you. Not the „fault“ of the government. It’s a feature, not a bug. No, I do not blame the government. They do what they can in the face of a natural disaster. It would have been better if they were better prepared. But that is true for every single nation in the world. Actually I do think my city (whos mayor is a liberal -also almost the devil in your worldview...) is handling it examplary. I just wanted to point out to you that this is an extraordinary situation and problems are everywhere and it is not appropriate to critise other nations when there are also problems at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, JoannaL said: ...our western system is strong and not to blame lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, Spockydog said: lol ok, I bite. Do you think a socialist system (like venezoela) will handle the crisis any better? I don't, and that is my point I do not think it is a failure of the "system", and I do not think that it will help the situation to blame our democray for the spread of the virus. It is true though that some leaders reacted more wisely than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 18 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said: I'm not interested in the difference in authoritarian governments and democratic ones, as I am in a decentralized versus centralized one. In my opinion, for a real emergency the patchwork state-by-state approach leaves much to be desired and is a real barrier when you have a virus that can easily cross state boundaries. There's lots of research around that the federal & decentralized nature of US public health systems have an adverse effect on their response to epidemics. This one here is about Ebola, but we've seen the same stuff play out with SARS-COV 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Arakan said: It has a lot to do with ideology of that leader. See Trump. You are from Jena? AFAIK it’s from next Monday on. Yes mask situation is ridiculous. All over Europe. It cannot be helped right now. We will have to use scarfs which is allowed. So you do not have to sew. I hope the situation gets better but I don’t believe it. A simple product which is not produced in Europe anymore. Blame the system. After this, yes maybe the rest of the world will think twice about relying on Chinese factories to produce everything at a ridiculously low cost and might have to start considering producing things themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 58 minutes ago, JoannaL said: ok, I bite. Do you think a socialist system (like venezoela) will handle the crisis any better? I don't, and that is my point I do not think it is a failure of the "system", and I do not think that it will help the situation to blame our democray for the spread of the virus. It is true though that some leaders reacted more wisely than others. You do realize many Western nations have socialized medicine, including here in the U.S.? And most Europeans would never trade their systems for ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: You do realize many Western nations have socialized medicine, including here in the U.S.? And most Europeans would never trade their systems for ours. Yes, we Europeans have a different (and in my opinion much superior) health system. But it is not "socialist". Actually I think that is a lie of the american republicans to call a good working health system "socialist". It is well in the restritions of a parlamentary democracy to provide the people with a good health and educational system. There is nothing "communist" or "socialist" in it, it is just good govering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorn Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 39 minutes ago, JoannaL said: Yes, we Europeans have a different (and in my opinion much superior) health system. But it is not "socialist". Actually I think that is a lie of the american republicans to call a good working health system "socialist". It is well in the restritions of a parlamentary democracy to provide the people with a good health and educational system. There is nothing "communist" or "socialist" in it, it is just good govering. I don't know where exactly you live in Europe, but "Beveridge model" of health care which is used in UK, Spain and most of Scandinavia is literally socialist, by every possible definition of the term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Gorn said: I don't know where exactly you live in Europe, but "Beveridge model" of health care which is used in UK, Spain and most of Scandinavia is literally socialist, by every possible definition of the term. The example I use for my fellow Americans is…..our military. It’s as socialistic as it gets. I get some joy in watching their screwed up faces processing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 hours ago, JoannaL said: ok, I bite. Do you think a socialist system (like venezoela) will handle the crisis any better? I don't, and that is my point I do not think it is a failure of the "system", and I do not think that it will help the situation to blame our democray for the spread of the virus. It is true though that some leaders reacted more wisely than others. There is no „western system“. The socio-economic system of countries like Sweden, Norway, Germany, Austria is as far away from the US system as it is from the Chinese one. Germany since 1990 moved more towards the Anglo-American model but still far away. Furthermore socialism and democracy are not antipodes. In the eyes of the average American Republican our welfare state, our extensively regulated markets ARE socialism. This should tell you something. The privatization of key industries like energy, transportation, telecommunications only happened in the 1990s and factually not for the betterment of those services, contrary to neoliberal ideological mantra. As a fellow German you will surely acknowledge this . And no, nothing of this is OT. Strategists all over the world, even Larry Fink of Blackrock fame, knows that we live in RIGHT NOW in epoch-changing times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Heartofice said: After this, yes maybe the rest of the world will think twice about relying on Chinese factories to produce everything at a ridiculously low cost and might have to start considering producing things themselves. So you also propose an end to maximum advantage capitalism? Good to hear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Gorn said: I don't know where exactly you live in Europe, but "Beveridge model" of health care which is used in UK, Spain and most of Scandinavia is literally socialist, by every possible definition of the term. Look, I am a born in West Germany but live in the East part of the country now for quite a while. They tried a socialist system (no parlamentary democry but a one party dictatorship). I know a lot of stories from my neighbors and friends. Their health system was ok, but lesser than our own. Apart from that, they could not speak their mind, could not decide which profession they want to take , and were shoot at if they wanted to leave the country. There was a secret service which spied on everyone and reported their political view, which could lead to jail time. This is socialism. To have a good health system is not socialism, it is social. In a western country you can elect a party which will give you a good health (and educational system) or you can elect one, which doesnt care. It is your decision. I do not understand why some countries decide again and again to elect parties which dont care? In Germany NO party (from the far left to the far right and all in between and also the liberals) would change our health or educational system, because it is working and makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Huge jump for the UK, up 393 deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 58 minutes ago, JoannaL said: Yes, we Europeans have a different (and in my opinion much superior) health system. But it is not "socialist". Actually I think that is a lie of the american republicans to call a good working health system "socialist". It is well in the restritions of a parlamentary democracy to provide the people with a good health and educational system. There is nothing "communist" or "socialist" in it, it is just good govering. You do not understand what socialism means. Sorry. The DDR was not the be all end all of socialism. A state enforced re-distribution of wealth to build up a social safety net as COMMON good (public-funded health care, public-funded pensions, public-funded unemployment payments) is socialist in its core. Like it or not. You are German. So you should know that the BY FAR largest piece of our retirement pensions are public funded, based on what you paid into. This is not how it works in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Huge jump for the UK, up 393 deaths. It looks like one death was a 19 year old with no health conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Just now, Chaircat Meow said: It looks like one death was a 19 year old with no health conditions. I'm taking them with a pinch of salt until confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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