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Alyn Oakenfist

Is Stannis guilty of killing Renly?

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So given how much the topic was discussed in the Baratheon brothers thread, I thought I should make a separate thread for this question. Here's what we know for a fact happened:

  • Stannis was sleeping with Mel before the crucial events, which is important as it was his ,,contribution" to the creation of the shadow assassin.
  • Mel said she birthed the shadow assassin alone without need of help due to how unprotected Renly's cam was to something like this.
  • The assassin had Stannis's face.
  • During the events Stannis couldn't wake.
  • Afterwards his recollection of events to Davos seems a bit fishy, especially:
  • Stannis claims he didn't see the event, but somehow dreams of it in very exact fashion.

So from the last four thing we can deduce that Stannis at east saw the event take place and that his mind was stuck in the shadow assassin. That's why he recollects the thing vividly and why he was in a trans like sleep. He ,,was" (or at least his mind was) there during the assassination. However the question is, was he the one to actively to the deed, or was he just a helpless bystander. I'd have to say that it was Mel actively controlling the thing given the following:

  • Mel is the sorceress here, it would be kinda off a dumb spell if Stannis was the one in control and not her.
  • The shadow didn't show even a hint of hesitation, just coldly doing it's duty. Stannis might have done the deed given the circumstances, but I don't think he could have done it without even flinching.
  • Stannis thinks more about the external events then the actual act. If he was the one in control, I think he would have vividly remembered doing it, not ,,a woman's scream".

But that's just my opinion. Honestly we don't have enough proof on either side to say for sure. Maybe we'll find out if we ever have another Mel POV. What do you think? Is Stannis guilty of fratricide? Or is he only guilty of having sex with Mel?

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I'm not sure it is all that relevant whether Stannis consciously controlled the shadow assassin. The point is that he signed off on the entire enterprise. Now, we don't know what Mel told him to convince him to go through with the plan and what she had to do to convince him to sleep with her for the first time (assuming that only happened during the campaign and not back on Dragonstone which is more likely).

One could try to make a case that Stannis bought a story told by Mel that this was all R'hllor's doing, etc. but Stannis isn't dumb. He know what was going on there ... he went to Storm's End, he set Renly an ultimatum, etc. - and the whole point of all that was to prevent Mel's vision of Renly crushing Stannis at the Blackwater. They went there to kill him, that much is clear.

Even if we pretended for a moment that Stannis was led astray by the evil woman and would have never ever signed off on the murder of his brother (completely unlikely in my opinion) then it is quite clear that Stannis realized and obviously approved of what Mel had done afterwards when he allowed her to go through with the very same enterprise when they killed Cortnay Penrose. There Stannis gives Davos explicit orders what to do with Mel, and it makes no sense at all that he didn't know what they were up to.

Stannis didn't use his own body to slay his brother, but he still killed him - with magic and by having a sorceress use some part of himself and transform it into a mostrous shadow assassin. We don't know how this works and whether the person who gives part of her/himself to create such a creature has any control over it ... but Stannis still had a connection with it regardless. He knew what happened.

What he rejects is merely the thought that he himself slew Renly with his own hands, not that he wasn't the person authorizing/commanding the murder of his brother.

But that's just minor difference - Maegor still killed Prince Viserys even if he never lay hands on himself and merely had Tyanna torture and murder him.

Stannis feels somewhat better because he can push away and deny his direct responsibility for the vile act, but that is just an excuse, and a pitiful at that. If he truly regretted murdering his brother he would have reacted differently.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point is that he signed off on the entire enterprise. Now, we don't know what Mel told him to convince him to go through with the plan and what she had to do to convince him to sleep with her for the first time (assuming that only happened during the campaign and not back on Dragonstone which is more likely).

Well, I'm not sure about that. He may as well have gone just trusting Mel to do whatever without really needing it. As for Stannis sleeping with her, I'm sure Mel has enough tricks up her sleeves to make it happen, not to mention the emboldening factor of Queen Selyse. So I'm not sure Stannis knew beforehand.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

obviously approved of what Mel had done afterwards when he allowed her to go through with the very same enterprise when they killed Cortnay Penrose. There Stannis gives Davos explicit orders what to do with Mel, and it makes no sense at all that he didn't know what they were up to.

Yeah after Renly he clearly put 2 and 2 together.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis didn't use his own body to slay his brother, but he still killed him - with magic and by having a sorceress use some part of himself and transform it into a mostrous shadow assassin. We don't know how this works and whether the person who gives part of her/himself to create such a creature has any control over it ... but Stannis still had a connection with it regardless. He knew what happened.

He knew what happened but that doesn't necessarily make him guilty. As I said it depends on how much agency he had. If he ordered the hit or controlled the creature he was obviously guilty of the deed, but if he was in the dark and had no agency on what the assassin was doing, the he can't really be considered guilty.

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2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well, I'm not sure about that. He may as well have gone just trusting Mel to do whatever without really needing it. As for Stannis sleeping with her, I'm sure Mel has enough tricks up her sleeves to make it happen, not to mention the emboldening factor of Queen Selyse. So I'm not sure Stannis knew beforehand.

You have to go through to the rather open threats in the Renly conversation. His specific ultimatum, that Renly go to him before dawn, etc. and the entire reason why they targeted Storm's End first.

I mean, do you think Mel could have convinced Stannis to first attack Renly rather than the Lannisters who were essentially right at his doorstep without giving him a compelling reason?

She would have first convinced him that she could see the future - likely with a minor thing like Mel later used with Jon (the three dead rangers), possibly also the aftermath of the Cressen affair - and then she would have convinced him that Renly was the greater danger, the threat that could undo his victory over the Lannisters. And once that was established it is pretty much inconceivable that a man like Stannis wasn't prepared to murder his brother. That was the entire point of the thing. And the idea that Mel tricked him into believed R'hllor would work things in mysterious ways so that everything would work out for him is effectively without basis. Stannis doesn't believe in any gods - whatever faith he had died when he saw his parents drowning and couldn't do anything to help them - he only believes in Melisandre's powers. He knows he can use them to get what he wants. And what he wants is the Iron Throne.

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah after Renly he clearly put 2 and 2 together.

That definitely, but I'd rather say he only really processed what he had done - that he had murdered his own brother, that he was a kinslayer now, after the deed was done. He has regrets then, but that doesn't mean he didn't know what was happening.

Stannis is a very repressed person. He cannot admit his feelings or his motivations even to himself. One sees this with his clandestine affair with Melisandre, the way he is jealous of Ned's friendship with Robert, the way he refuses to help either Robert or Ned against Cersei because of that jealousy.

Even his claim that he doesn't want the throne seems like a lie to me - one he might even believe himself. Stannis could have easily made his peace with either Cersei/Tywin or Renly - but he never even tried.

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He knew what happened but that doesn't necessarily make him guilty. As I said it depends on how much agency he had. If he ordered the hit or controlled the creature he was obviously guilty of the deed, but if he was in the dark and had no agency on what the assassin was doing, the he can't really be considered guilty.

I'd say we don't know whether he could have influenced/controlled the assassin. But I'm sure he knew what Mel was doing ... and we can also be very sure she would have never killed Renly without Stannis' approval. Stannis isn't the kind of man you surprise with gifts he might not even want. Mel would risk her life and, more importantly, her place at Stannis' side if she had acted on her own in this.

And there is not the slightest indication that Stannis and Mel had any sort of falling-out after Renly's death. Quite the contrary in fact. She is the one who comforted him despite the fact that he knew what she had done. That tells us all we need to know.

It is certainly a pity that George didn't have POV around to shed more light on that, but perhaps we will get a little more on that later on in Mel's chapters when she creates another shadow assassin - which she is likely to do at the Wall since her powers are so strong there.

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Posted (edited)

What we know is this:

 

(1) Stannis resents both of his brothers, he had already abandoned Robert to his own fate after he did not make him Hand while blocking Dragonstone and preparing for  war.  And he deeply resents Renly. 

 

 The cravenly ones will sit behind their walls waiting to see how the wind rises and who is likely to triumph. The bold ones have already declared for Renly. For Renly!” He spat out the name like poison on his tongue. “Your brother has been the Lord of Storm’s End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—” “His,” Stannis broke in, “when by rights they should be mine. ACOK Prologue

 

(2) Stannis is told by her wife that the Stormlords will be his if Renly dies, far from opposing that path, he clearly considerates it.

 

“How many swords will the Lord of Light put into my hand?” Stannis demanded again. “All you need,” his wife promised. “The swords of Storm’s End and Highgarden for a start, and all their lords bannermen.” “Davos would tell you different,” Stannis said. “Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once loved Robert … and as they have never loved me.” “Yes,” she answered, “but if Renly should die …” Stannis looked at his lady with narrowed eyes, until Cressen could not hold his tongue. “It is not to be thought. Your Grace, whatever follies Renly has committed—” “Follies? I call them treasons.” Stannis turned back to his wife. “My brother is young and strong, and he has a vast host around him, and these rainbow knights of his.” “Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him dead.” Cressen was horrorstruck. “Fratricide … my lord, this is evil, unthinkable … please, listen to me.” Lady Selyse gave him a measured look. “And what will you tell him, maester? How he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?” “I have heard your counsel, Cressen,” Lord Stannis said. “Now I will hear hers. You are dismissed.” ACOK Prologue

 

Seylse outright talks about murdering Stannis's brother and Stannis first complain is that it cannot be done due Renly's position!! He does not show any reserves whatsoever, as he for example showed with Edric. Stannis here shows that he is perfectly ok with kililng Renly if that gains him the power he needs for the throne. 

 

 

(3) Stannis is told by Meli that Renly would meet his end at Storm's End... where does he go?? Exactly, Storm's End.

 

Ser Cortnay will be dead within the day. Melisandre has seen it in the flames of the future. His death and the manner of it. He will not die in knightly combat, needless to say.” Stannis held out his cup, and Devan filled it again from the flagon. “Her flames do not lie. She saw Renly’s doom as well. On Dragonstone she saw it, and told Selyse. Lord Velaryon and your friend Salladhor Saan would have had me sail against Joffrey, but Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm’s End, I would win the best part of my brother’s power, and she was right.” “B-but,” Davos stammered, “Lord Renly only came here because you had laid siege to the castle. He was marching toward King’s Landing before, against the Lannisters, he would have—” Stannis shifted in his seat, frowning. “Was, would have, what is that? He did what he did. He came here with his banners and his peaches, to his doom … and it was well for me he did. Melisandre saw another day in her flames as well. A morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King’s Landing. Had I met my brother there, it might have been me who died in place of him.” ACOK Davos II

 

 

Cortnay Penrose seemed hale and hearty to me.” “So did my brother, the day before his death. The night is dark and full of terrors, Davos.” Davos Seaworth felt the small hairs rising on the back of his neck. “My lord, I do not understand you.” ACOK Davos II

 

 

(4) Stannis was there when happened, not only because it was his ghost killing  Renly but by his own recollections and Stannis was sleeping while the murder was happening.

 

“I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands. “I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.” Ser Davos Seaworth could feel his phantom fingertips start to itch. Something is wrong here, the one-time smuggler thought.  ACOK Davos II

 

 

(5) Meli says that she birthed the thing alone... Nevermind that Meli lies and lies in that exchange. 

 

“Yet you mean to kill a man tonight,” he said. “As you killed Maester Cressen.” “Your maester poisoned himself. He meant to poison me, but I was protected by a greater power and he was not.” “And Renly Baratheon? Who was it who killed him?” Her head turned. Beneath the shadow of the cowl, her eyes burned like pale red candle flames. “Not I.” “Liar.” Davos was certain now. Melisandre laughed again. “You are lost in darkness and confusion, Ser Davos.” ACOK Davos II

 

 

(6) Meli does not exculpate Stannis, she simply says that no one needed to take her to Renly, not that she killed the thing  without no one's help.

 

“Who rowed you to Renly?” “There was no need,” she said. “He was unprotected. But here … this Storm’s End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass— ancient, forgotten, yet still in place.” “Shadow?” Davos felt his flesh prickling. “A shadow is a thing of darkness.” “You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows.” ACOK Davos II

 

Meli simply says that she did not need a Davos to kill Renly, as she specifically need to kill Penrose.

 

 

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  • Mel is the sorceress here, it would be kinda off a dumb spell if Stannis was the one in control and not her.

That's not an argument, it seems more a hope, since we know next to nothing about how hre magic works, specifically how the shadow assasins work.

 

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  The shadow didn't show even a hint of hesitation, just coldly doing it's duty. Stannis might have done the deed given the circumstances, but I don't think he could have done it without even flinching.

Stannis was considering killing Renly since the prologue, he made up his mind long ago. He only shoes, and for a very short time,  some sort of grief when the deed is done and he is fully aware of what he had done and how far has he gone, before that Stannis deeply resents his brother. I will not be surprised if that specifical shadow assasin was the embodiment of his hatred.

 

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
  •  Stannis thinks more about the external events then the actual act. If he was the one in control, I think he would have vividly remembered doing it, not ,,a woman's scream".

This is obvious, Stannis is suppressing what he did and what he tells Davos are explicitly are nightmares induced by his subconscious guilt. What he tells Davos are his nightmares, not what he saw and did. His actions and words tell  us what he saw and did but Stannis himself does not talk us about what he knows or saw, only about his nightmares.

 

Quote

“I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands

It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.”

It's not coincidence that when he says blood he looks down at his hands and he remarks the fact that it was a dream and that when he woke up.

Meli did not go rogue, she did not kill Stannis own brother without Stannis's awareness and approval, he might or might not be incepted into killing Renly but given that the deed was done with his knowledge and approval and shadow, whether he consciously did the killing or not is irrelevant, Stannis is completely guilty.

 

 

 

Edited by frenin

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Mel would not have killed Renly without the approval of Stannis.  Stannis might not understand the science of shadow binding but common sense told him dark magic would be involved.  Mel was not going to ask Renly to duel. That much was clear.  Stannis is guilty.  Hopefully, his fan club will not try to shift all the blame to Mel. Jaime's fan club tries to shift the blame to Cersei.  Jon's excuse-makers attempt to shift the blame for releasing Mance Rayder to Mel.  The truth is, Stannis, Jon, and Jaime are all responsible for the despicable things that their critics accuse them of.  

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Posted (edited)

 

I repeat this on many forums , but I feel it is important that Martin's favorite movie "The Forbidden Planet" holds some answers. 

SPOILERS

Spoiler

 

In the movie professor Morbius uses a machine of extinct race which materializes their wishes from conscious part of the mind , but also from the id where monsters lie which bring their destruction.

It is possible that Red Woman harnessed subconscious desires of Stannis to create guidance for Shadows, for it is question do they have their own will or they follow will of those who created them ( or their imprint).

So from judicial point it is question could we trial person for his materialized subconscious desire which had done the deed, also taking note that he didn't know Renly would be killed that way, just the vision of his death and his army joining him. Cortney Penrose is different matter though it was deliberate assassination mission explicitly ordered by Stannis.

 

Though it is also notable that Renly was traitor and was planning to kill his brother in just few hours, so I don't blame him for doing it, though he certainly feels guilty.

Edited by Eltharion21

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2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I repeat this on many forums , but I feel it is important that Martin's favorite movie "The Forbidden Planet" holds some answers. 

SPOILERS

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In the movie professor Morbius uses a machine of extinct race which materializes their wishes from conscious part of the mind , but also from the id where monsters lie which bring their destruction.

It is possible that Red Woman harnessed subconscious desires of Stannis to create guidance for Shadows, for it is question do they have their own will or they follow will of those who created them ( or their imprint).

So from judicial point it is question could we trial person for his materialized subconscious desire which had done the deed, also taking note that he didn't know Renly would be killed that way, just the vision of his death and his army joining him. Cortney Penrose is different matter though it was deliberate assassination mission explicitly ordered by Stannis.

 

Though it is also notable that Renly was traitor and was planning to kill his brother in just few hours, so I don't blame him for doing it, though he certainly feels guilty.

Yeah, I tend to think this is the correct answer. It doesn't really make sense for him to be completely in the dark, but it doesn't really make sense for him to be the one calling the shots here too. It does make the most sense honestly especially given Stannis's anger towards Renly, anger that somehow turn to kinda remorse in an instant. Like if he did kill him consciously then it wouldn't make sense to be so determined initially but then to completely turn on a dime. It's also quite similar to ,,Stalker" now I think about it. Also the way the shadow does the thing without a single moment of hesitation seems to reflect that this was something deeper then the conscious.

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15 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Like if he did kill him consciously then it wouldn't make sense to be so determined initially but then to completely turn on a dime. It's also quite similar to ,,Stalker" now I think about it. Also the way the shadow does the thing without a single moment of hesitation seems to reflect that this was something deeper then the conscious.

It makes sense, the killing is done because his hatred, anger and resentment. After the killing is done, all those feelings disappear and only remains the fact that Stannis has killed his own brother.

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It's an iffy one. Personally I'd lean towards no. His words and the way he acts afterwords seem to give the impression that he didn't know what was going down at the time and only pieced it together later.

Now, it can be pointed out that Stannis considered Renly's death necessary. This is true and is shown several times leading up to Storms End. Equally, Stannis is frequently told that Melisandre has seen Renly's death at Storms End and that Stannis immediately goes there, which doesn't paint him in a good light. However, I don't believe anyone ever tells him how Renly is to die. For all we know Stannis interpreted that Mel was forseeing his victory there, that Renly would fall in battle.

Reading the parley again and considering his words after ( 'I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day.') that to me indicates that Stannis thought it would come to a battle he presumed himself foretold to win. And who knows how Mel duped him into sleeping with her. She could have told him anything without actually saying "Have sex with me and I'll birth a shadow assassin to murder your brother".

In essence I think she manipulated him into giving permission without him knowing exactly what he was giving permission for. Which means he was willing to be responsible for Renly's death and would have been if it had gone to a battle but the way events transpired then no, he isn't.

Penrose on the other hand.... 

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33 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

It's an iffy one. Personally I'd lean towards no. His words and the way he acts afterwords seem to give the impression that he didn't know what was going down at the time and only pieced it together later.

Now, it can be pointed out that Stannis considered Renly's death necessary. This is true and is shown several times leading up to Storms End. Equally, Stannis is frequently told that Melisandre has seen Renly's death at Storms End and that Stannis immediately goes there, which doesn't paint him in a good light. However, I don't believe anyone ever tells him how Renly is to die. For all we know Stannis interpreted that Mel was forseeing his victory there, that Renly would fall in battle.

Reading the parley again and considering his words after ( 'I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day.') that to me indicates that Stannis thought it would come to a battle he presumed himself foretold to win. And who knows how Mel duped him into sleeping with her. She could have told him anything without actually saying "Have sex with me and I'll birth a shadow assassin to murder your brother".

In essence I think she manipulated him into giving permission without him knowing exactly what he was giving permission for. Which means he was willing to be responsible for Renly's death and would have been if it had gone to a battle but the way events transpired then no, he isn't.

Penrose on the other hand.... 

Stannis isn't the kind of fool who would believe he could defeat Renly in battle. He chose Mel over all his other advisers because she had real power, power which put fear in the hearts of the men around him, power he could use to turn the odds in his favor.

When Stannis draws 'Lightbringer' and points it at Renly and makes his ultimate threat he gives pretty much everything away. He would abandon the murder plan if Renly showed up at his camp before dawn. If not, he would be dead.

The talk afterwards is Stannis coping with the fact that he is a vile kinslayer who murdered his brother and who knows more about the how than ever cared to know. It is the kind of regret some people have after they have murdered someone. You can have that but that doesn't absolve you of what you did.

Stannis would be even a more rotten person if he had been led astray by the evil red woman and would then let the matter stand as it is. Stannis presumes to be a just man - if this is true (and there are strong signs he really wants to be) he would have taken Mel's head if she had tricked him in this fashion. He would have admitted to his people what this woman did in his name, and he would have punished her for it.

That he doesn't even consider something like that shows he must have signed off on the whole plan from the start.

Without a real plan how to destroy Renly he would have never agreed to go to Storm's End in the first place. Why should he? Going there was madness from a strategic point of view. But Stannis didn't need Mel to tell him that Renly was a traitor and should die - that he knew for himself.

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure it is all that relevant whether Stannis consciously controlled the shadow assassin. The point is that he signed off on the entire enterprise.

/thread. It is known. 

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39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Stannis didn't need Mel to tell him that Renly was a traitor and should die - that he knew for himself.

Facts. Renly thought the same so why wouldn't Stannis

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis isn't the kind of fool who would believe he could defeat Renly in battle.

Without a real plan how to destroy Renly he would have never agreed to go to Storm's End in the first place. Why should he? Going there was madness from a strategic point of view. 

The thing was, Renly was a fucking moran. Stannis knows this, its his brother after all. We see this when Renly questionably sends his men out to battle. 

Renlys host was big but so was Mances 

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He chose Mel over all his other advisers because she had real power, power which put fear in the hearts of the men around him, power he could use to turn the odds in his favor.

Yea we see with Penrose that Stannis commissioned his assassination so hes not above playing that hand. But Penrose was after the fact

So, how do you think that conversation went? Theyre on DS, and Melis like, ok ill give it up but only outside stormsend so you can kill your baby bro and therefore not lose to him in KL. 

Or, say go to SE and Renly will die there, and then when theyre at SE pull up to Stannis' and be like, tryna chill?

When we get up to Penrose its almost evident that Stannis knew what he was doing and did, but I dont see it the first time. 

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis presumes to be a just man - if this is true (and there are strong signs he really wants to be) he would have taken Mel's head if she had tricked him in this fashion. He would have admitted to his people what this woman did in his name, and he would have punished her for it.

That he doesn't even consider something like that shows he must have signed off on the whole plan from the start.

Thats how he handled Davos.

Meli, she uh, showed him the light lol. With Stannis a kinslayer and a tool for a witch came Penrose bunking with Edric. He needs her. Plus, she proved her worth, like Davos

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19 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So given how much the topic was discussed in the Baratheon brothers thread, I thought I should make a separate thread for this question. Here's what we know for a fact happened:

  • Stannis was sleeping with Mel before the crucial events, which is important as it was his ,,contribution" to the creation of the shadow assassin.
  • Mel said she birthed the shadow assassin alone without need of help due to how unprotected Renly's cam was to something like this.
  • The assassin had Stannis's face.
  • During the events Stannis couldn't wake.
  • Afterwards his recollection of events to Davos seems a bit fishy, especially:
  • Stannis claims he didn't see the event, but somehow dreams of it in very exact fashion.

So from the last four thing we can deduce that Stannis at east saw the event take place and that his mind was stuck in the shadow assassin. That's why he recollects the thing vividly and why he was in a trans like sleep. He ,,was" (or at least his mind was) there during the assassination. However the question is, was he the one to actively to the deed, or was he just a helpless bystander. I'd have to say that it was Mel actively controlling the thing given the following:

  • Mel is the sorceress here, it would be kinda off a dumb spell if Stannis was the one in control and not her.
  • The shadow didn't show even a hint of hesitation, just coldly doing it's duty. Stannis might have done the deed given the circumstances, but I don't think he could have done it without even flinching.
  • Stannis thinks more about the external events then the actual act. If he was the one in control, I think he would have vividly remembered doing it, not ,,a woman's scream".

But that's just my opinion. Honestly we don't have enough proof on either side to say for sure. Maybe we'll find out if we ever have another Mel POV. What do you think? Is Stannis guilty of fratricide? Or is he only guilty of having sex with Mel?

Under the RICO statutes he would be. 

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21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Under the RICO statutes he would be. 

What’s the RICO statutes again?

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4 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Mel did it at Stannis' behest. So yes. He is guilty of fratricide.

I agree Mel did it at Stannis's behest but in universe does he have to be the one to 'swing the sword'? Or is it enough to give the command to be named kinslayer?

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree Mel did it at Stannis's behest but in universe does he have to be the one to 'swing the sword'? Or is it enough to give the command to be named kinslayer?

Depends on whether or not Daenerys is considered a kinslayer for not doing anything to stop Viserys from being crowned with molten gold.

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