Is Stannis guilty of killing Renly?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Depends on whether or not Daenerys is considered a kinslayer for not doing anything to stop Viserys from being crowned with molten gold.

I don't think so. For one, whether or not it's considered kinslaying in universe would not be dependant on how Dany is viewed, why would it? 

Second, I asked if it's enough to have given the command. Daenerys gave no such command, nor was there anything she could do to stop it. 

[Dreadscythe95]

Of course he did, let's not be hypocrites. If you pay an assasin to kill someone, you are still responsible for the murder as well. If someone puts an assasin to kill your parents you will consider him innocent or something? Stannis wanted Rendly dead and he did what he could to achieve it and it doesn't change. Stannis is a just person but he is also VERY Power hungry. He always claims that Power is his birthright (which is true at first glance) but the only truth is that Power belongs to the person that does the most to hold it, so yeah he is not a saint and he is not better than Robert or Renly.

Renly, who was also power hungry, was a better politican and he actually managed to secure the throne by taking Highgarden on his side (even if The Tyrells also used him to reach The Throne to a big extend). Stannis was losing the throne and so he murdered his brother to change the tides (4000 men with low supplies vs 80000 men and the wealth of Highgarden and Strom's End), that's the only truth.

People claim that The Tyrells are the traitors here but The Tyrells consider Stannis an enemy and they are right. Stannis hates them after Robert's rebelion and he is married to a Florent, a house that threatens to take Highgarden from them. It is only natural for them to try and deny him the throne with everything they have. The biggest enemies to The Bartheons are always the Baratheons themselves and their egotism. "Ours is the Fury" indeed.

[Dreadscythe95]

18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Depends on whether or not Daenerys is considered a kinslayer for not doing anything to stop Viserys from being crowned with molten gold.

Of course she is, we know her thoughts. Her husbant killed him and she did nothing to stop him but also most importantly she didn't hate him or stop loving him. She also didn't even grief a lot. Of course she killed him and honestly I don't blame her but she DID play an ethical part to the murder.

[Angel Eyes]

21 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

People claim that The Tyrells are the traitors here but The Tyrells consider Stannis an enemy and they are right. Stannis hates them after Robert's rebelion and he is married to a Florent, a house that threatens to take Highgarden from them. It is only natural for them to try and deny him the throne with everything they have. The biggest enemies to The Bartheons are always the Baratheons themselves and their egotism. "Ours is the Fury" indeed.

I'd call it emnity; the Tyrells never tried to influence things through Stannis, his denial of the legitimacy of Robert's "Children" hurts their legitimacy as a part of the royal family. It's made them blind to Cersei moving against them to isolate Margaery by having Mace Tyrell siege Storm's End and sending Loras to a disastrous campaign to Dragonstone.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

21 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Of course she is, we know her thoughts. Her husbant killed him and she did nothing to stop him but also most importantly she didn't hate him or stop loving him. She also didn't even grief a lot. Of course she killed him and honestly I don't blame her but she DID play an ethical part to the murder.

Yeah, I don't think that's how murder works. You're not guilty of a murder because you don't grieve enough or don't stop loving the person who did the killing. There was nothing in her power she could do to stop it. Viserys broke an age old custom & bared naked steel in the sacred city. At that point his life was forfeit as far as any of the Dothraki were concerned, regardless of how Dany felt about him. 

Also, he had just threatened to kill her baby & kidnap her so it certainly could be argued he was killed in defense of Dany. 

She actually played no part in the murder. None at all. 

[Hugorfonics]

39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think so. For one, whether or not it's considered kinslaying in universe would not be dependant on how Dany is viewed, why would it? 

Second, I asked if it's enough to have given the command. Daenerys gave no such command, nor was there anything she could do to stop it. 

Thats a damphair question

Quote

He drank in the darkness, brooding on his brother. If I do not strike the blow with mine own hand, am I still a kinslayer? Victarion feared no man, but the Drowned God's curse gave him pause. If another strikes him down at my command, will his blood still stain my hands? Aeron Damphair would know the answer, but the priest was somewhere back on the Iron Islands, still hoping to raise the ironborn against their new-crowned king.

But do you really believe in that mumbo jumbo anyway?

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I don't think that's how murder works. You're not guilty of a murder because you don't grieve enough or don't stop loving the person who did the killing. There was nothing in her power she could do to stop it. Viserys broke an age old custom & bared naked steel in the sacred city. At that point his life was forfeit as far as any of the Dothraki were concerned, regardless of how Dany felt about him. 

Also, he had just threatened to kill her baby & kidnap her so it certainly could be argued he was killed in defense of Dany. 

She actually played no part in the murder. None at all. 

I agree. Its like blaming Sansa for Dontos if she didnt save him from Joff. She could have saved him, but she still didnt kill him

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats a damphair question

But do you really believe in that mumbo jumbo anyway?

I agree. Its like blaming Sansa for Dontos if she didnt save him from Joff. She could have saved him, but she still didnt kill him

Right & I don't think Dany could have saved Viserys. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Yes

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Of course she is, we know her thoughts. Her husbant killed him and she did nothing to stop him but also most importantly she didn't hate him or stop loving him. She also didn't even grief a lot. Of course she killed him and honestly I don't blame her but she DID play an ethical part to the murder.

D&D is that you? The piece of shit had almost killed her and her unborn child. Also she did nothing, I repeat nothing to kill Viserys. Not doing anything when someone is getting killed is a far cry from ordering someone's death. She is about as guilty of his death (which let's be honest, he bloody earned it) as the horse.

45 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right & I don't think Dany could have saved Viserys. 

Exactly. By this train of thought Cat murdered Robb. I mean she was there and she did nothing to stop it. Like there's murder (Mel clearly), conspiracy to commit murder (Stannis possibly, not sure, we don't know for a fact what transpired) and then there's being a witness to the murder. Let's make a clear distinction here.

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I agree. Its like blaming Sansa for Dontos if she didnt save him from Joff. She could have saved him, but she still didnt kill him

 

[Nagini's Neville]

I like Stannis, but yes. I feel like, if he had been oblivious to for what Mel would use him and the shadowbabay, he wouldn't have felt so guilty for it afterwards. And it was his goal after all to defeat his brother. So he knew Mel would be working towards that as well. He was at least complicate. And let's be honest since he is the boss, that's just as bad as ordering it.

Magic mostly is way of "cheating", so ever since he started collaborating with Mel, he for sure in some way has left this path of righteousness and honorableness, that he prides himself so much on. But since no one else acts that way either- what's a Stannis to do? If Renly hadn't even declared himself king, but supported his older brother like it was his duty, he hadn't been a target. 

 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Facts. Renly thought the same so why wouldn't Stannis

What Renly thought is irrelevant to the question at hand.

However, in Renly's defence (who I don't like particularly but who may still have been a better man than Stannis) we have to say that he only decided to defeat and kill his brother in battle after said brother laid siege to his castle and after said brother decided not to bend the knee to Renly.

Renly had no intention to lay siege to Dragonstone and defeat Stannis before he defeated the Lannisters.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Renlys host was big but so was Mances 

Mance didn't know Stannis was coming and Mance didn't have disciplined Westerosi knights - Renly had both. And he had some of the finest generals and knights in all of Westeros with him. They would have crushed Stannis like a bug. There may have been some casualties if they had really charged into Stannis' lines but they would have overwhelmed them quickly enough. They outnumbered Stannis more than 10:1.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, how do you think that conversation went? Theyre on DS, and Melis like, ok ill give it up but only outside stormsend so you can kill your baby bro and therefore not lose to him in KL. 

Or, say go to SE and Renly will die there, and then when theyre at SE pull up to Stannis' and be like, tryna chill?

How stupid do you think Stannis is? Why on earth would he want to go to Storm's End if Mel doesn't lay out to him in detail what happens there?

Stannis doesn't believe in Mel's R'hllor shit - he believes in her powers because he has seen them. This means she must have told him point blank that she could see to it that Renly died. If she had bored him with some religious crap - that her god would intervene on his behalf, etc. - he wouldn't have bought it.

And he certainly wouldn't have put his campaign in the hands of a god he didn't even believe in.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Meli, she uh, showed him the light lol. With Stannis a kinslayer and a tool for a witch came Penrose bunking with Edric. He needs her. Plus, she proved her worth, like Davos

Are you trying to say that Stannis wouldn't care if Davos had murdered his brother without Stannis authorizing something like that? I don't think so.

He spares Davos because he never committed a crime - and because he could explain his reasoning.

If you want to twist Stannis into a guy who would spare Mel's life and keep her as his mistress and closest advisor after she just committed she murdered his brother to do him a favor he apparently never asked for then Stannis would be even more monstrous than if he signed off on the murder. Because he would be a hypocrite who doesn't give a damn about justice at all.

[Wisconsin]

Is Stannis guilty of killing Renly?  Yes

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right & I don't think Dany could have saved Viserys. 

She coulda tried. Put on the waterworks and ask to banish him to Pentos or something. Idk, it's doubtful Ill give you that, but so was Dontos

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Exactly. By this train of thought Cat murdered Robb. I mean she was there and she did nothing to stop it.

Yea she did. She swore peace at the expense of another murdered victim, and didnt bluff

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What Renly thought is irrelevant to the question at hand.

However, in Renly's defence (who I don't like particularly but who may still have been a better man than Stannis) we have to say that he only decided to defeat and kill his brother in battle after said brother laid siege to his castle and after said brother decided not to bend the knee to Renly.

Renly had no intention to lay siege to Dragonstone and defeat Stannis before he defeated the Lannisters.

I just meant they were similar like that. 

Yea I dont think Renly had the intention to defeat anybody, while relying on a northern teenager to hand him his kingdom. 

(I dont really care for Renly either, but I do for Stannis, even if he is a terrible person)

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Mance didn't know Stannis was coming and Mance didn't have disciplined Westerosi knights - Renly had both. And he had some of the finest generals and knights in all of Westeros with him. They would have crushed Stannis like a bug. There may have been some casualties if they had really charged into Stannis' lines but they would have overwhelmed them quickly enough. They outnumbered Stannis more than 10:1.

Mance had fucking mammoths and Giants like Phil Simms. Dont sell Stannis short. This time either. 

Yea finest generals and knights in the back, he gave the van to his teenage lover. I mean, Tarlys not all the way in the back, not like the supplies and valuable hostages.

Numbers dont mean everything

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How stupid do you think Stannis is? Why on earth would he want to go to Storm's End

Whats he gonna do then? Keep reading Neds month old letters? Put on a show like Renly? He needs men, lords. Well hes baratheon, start with Stormland

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

he believes in her powers because he has seen them.

Citation please. Pre Renly death.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

if Mel doesn't lay out to him in detail what happens there?

Stannis doesn't believe in Mel's R'hllor shit - he believes in her powers because he has seen them. This means she must have told him point blank that she could see to it that Renly died. If she had bored him with some religious crap - that her god would intervene on his behalf, etc. - he wouldn't have bought it.

And he certainly wouldn't have put his campaign in the hands of a god he didn't even believe in.

Im not saying God, you are. Im saying pussy. I mean they had to fuck, so Stannis the premeditated murderer knowingly banged Meli while thinking this is how I kill my brother, lol weird. (I mean he certainly did with Penrose).

That sounds far fetched, I think she kept it ambiguous and sexy

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He spares Davos because he never committed a crime

Stannis called it treason

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If you want to twist Stannis into a guy who would spare Mel's life and keep her as his mistress and closest advisor after she just committed she murdered his brother to do him a favor he apparently never asked for then 

We dont know if Meli confessed (it makes Penroses sex scene better)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

then Stannis would be even more monstrous than if he signed off on the murder. Because he would be a hypocrite who doesn't give a damn about justice at all.

Well idk about the monstrous scale but Stannis is a hypocrite who doesn't give a damn about justice lol

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

She coulda tried. Put on the waterworks and ask to banish him to Pentos or something. Idk, it's doubtful Ill give you that, but so was Dontos

Yeah agreed. There wasn't much time for Sansa to say or do anything to stop Dontos's death, even if she could. 

[Only 89 selfies today]

16 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

 

I repeat this on many forums , but I feel it is important that Martin's favorite movie "The Forbidden Planet" holds some answers. 

SPOILERS

  Hide contents

 

In the movie professor Morbius uses a machine of extinct race which materializes their wishes from conscious part of the mind , but also from the id where monsters lie which bring their destruction.

It is possible that Red Woman harnessed subconscious desires of Stannis to create guidance for Shadows, for it is question do they have their own will or they follow will of those who created them ( or their imprint).

So from judicial point it is question could we trial person for his materialized subconscious desire which had done the deed, also taking note that he didn't know Renly would be killed that way, just the vision of his death and his army joining him. Cortney Penrose is different matter though it was deliberate assassination mission explicitly ordered by Stannis.

 

Though it is also notable that Renly was traitor and was planning to kill his brother in just few hours, so I don't blame him for doing it, though he certainly feels guilty.

War does not have to be won on the battlefield. The best victories are won without battle.  But the question is one of guilt.  He's guilty.

23 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Mel would not have killed Renly without the approval of Stannis.  Stannis might not understand the science of shadow binding but common sense told him dark magic would be involved.  Mel was not going to ask Renly to duel. That much was clear.  Stannis is guilty.  Hopefully, his fan club will not try to shift all the blame to Mel. Jaime's fan club tries to shift the blame to Cersei.  Jon's excuse-makers attempt to shift the blame for releasing Mance Rayder to Mel.  The truth is, Stannis, Jon, and Jaime are all responsible for the despicable things that their critics accuse them of.  

All three are guilty.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

What’s the RICO statutes again?

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act of 1970. It's what the feds used to take down mob bosses. Even if they committed no crime, they were guilty of running a criminal organization. So even though Stannis did not commit the murders or even order them directly, he would still be guilty under RICO.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree Mel did it at Stannis's behest but in universe does he have to be the one to 'swing the sword'? Or is it enough to give the command to be named kinslayer?

IMO, yes. I understand what you are poking at but it wasn't as if some hedge knight killed Renly in a battle. Or a sellsword or a treacherous camp follower.

Imo, Stannis participated in dark magic for the explicit purposes of killing his brother. And it's nothing to Mel. She's not related to Renly. She's a shadow binder doing her job for her king. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

IMO, yes. I understand what you are poking at but it wasn't as if some hedge knight killed Renly in a battle. Or a sellsword or a treacherous camp follower.

Imo, Stannis participated in dark magic for the explicit purposes of killing his brother. And it's nothing to Mel. She's not related to Renly. She's a shadow binder doing her job for her king. 

Yeah, I agree it wasn't the same as a one of Stannis's followers killing him in battle or what not. It does get muddy at times though, I think. 

I mostly think he is a kinslayer as well. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

18 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It does get muddy at times though, I think. 

It does. I just draw my own lines rather than let the accumulative ambiguity of it all crush me.

 

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I mostly think he is a kinslayer as well. 

 Yep. And I actually really like him. So it sucks that he's basically cursed. What else could he of done?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

It does. I just draw my own lines rather than let the accumulative ambiguity of it all crush me.

 

 Yep. And I actually really like him. So it sucks that he's basically cursed. What else could he of done?

Yep me too. The only other thing he could have done is lay down his swords & bend the knee to Renly. Which was never really an option to him because Renly isn't the rightful heir, he is. He might as well die rather than bend the knee to his younger brother (in his eyes) 

I would like to have seen Renly, Stannis & Robb fight against a common enemy, but George doesn't take what I want to see into consideration much