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Is Stannis guilty of killing Renly?


Alyn Oakenfist

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25 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yep me too. The only other thing he could have done is lay down his swords & bend the knee to Renly. Which was never really an option to him because Renly isn't the rightful heir, he is. He might as well die rather than bend the knee to his younger brother (in his eyes) 

I would like to have seen Renly, Stannis & Robb fight against a common enemy, but George doesn't take what I want to see into consideration much :lol:

And that just wouldn't be the Stannis that we all know and love, would it? 
As for George, I swear... he must of spent his entire life having his heart broken. And now he's an expert at it.  :P

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15 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

And that just wouldn't be the Stannis that we all know and love, would it? 
As for George, I swear... he must of spent his entire life having his heart broken. And now he's an expert at it.  :P

No it certainly wouldn't have been Stannis! 

Haha!! yes he must have! 

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Guilt is, or can be at times, subjective. For instance, if I do something that, unbeknownst to me, causes someone’s death, am I guilty of murder?

We have Stannis flat out say he wasn’t there, he was asleep and having vivid dreams about Renly’s death. I for one believe his words, or, to put it differently, believe that he believes what he says. This is how it plays out in my head canon (at least until we learn more):

Mel and Stannis have sex. Previous to having sex, Mel tells him things; about how he will defeat Renly, and/or that Renly will die, that he is Red Rahloo’s chosen one, yadda yadda yadda. But she doesn’t tell him everything. She doesn’t say, “we’re gonna have sex and I will birth a shadow assassin that will look like you and this shadow will go into Renly’s tent and kill him”. They have sex, and “when he gave his seed to her he gave [part of] his soul as well”. It has been established that creating shadow assassins really “takes it out of you”, and not just like normal sex does. Stannis is so depleted after two that Mel knows she can’t use him to create one more, at least not before some time. 

Stannis falls asleep, and it’s no regular sleep but almost coma-like, given that we’re talking about a magical process w/ a cost. 

The rest is as we get in the text. The shadow assassin is birthed and kills Renly, Stannis swears he was asleep but remembers vivid and disturbing dreams. 

That said, I’m not sure that he wouldn’t have rolled w/ it, had Mel told him everything in detail. 

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59 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Guilt is, or can be at times, subjective. For instance, if I do something that, unbeknownst to me, causes someone’s death, am I guilty of murder?

We have Stannis flat out say he wasn’t there, he was asleep and having vivid dreams about Renly’s death. I for one believe his words, or, to put it differently, believe that he believes what he says. This is how it plays out in my head canon (at least until we learn more):

Mel and Stannis have sex. Previous to having sex, Mel tells him things; about how he will defeat Renly, and/or that Renly will die, that he is Red Rahloo’s chosen one, yadda yadda yadda. But she doesn’t tell him everything. She doesn’t say, “we’re gonna have sex and I will birth a shadow assassin that will look like you and this shadow will go into Renly’s tent and kill him”. They have sex, and “when he gave his seed to her he gave [part of] his soul as well”. It has been established that creating shadow assassins really “takes it out of you”, and not just like normal sex does. Stannis is so depleted after two that Mel knows she can’t use him to create one more, at least not before some time. 

Stannis falls asleep, and it’s no regular sleep but almost coma-like, given that we’re talking about a magical process w/ a cost. 

The rest is as we get in the text. The shadow assassin is birthed and kills Renly, Stannis swears he was asleep but remembers vivid and disturbing dreams. 

That said, I’m not sure that he wouldn’t have rolled w/ it, had Mel told him everything in detail. 

Yeah, I agree with this. The reason I think he owns some blame is that even though she didn't give him all the details ahead of time, after the fact he can put two & two together. He has to know what transpired, even if he doesn't know the shadow baby was born from his loins. He doesn't punish her & isn't angry with her over it, so that leads me to believe he did have some idea Renly wasn't going to make it to that battlefield. I just don't think Mel would do this without Stannis's permission. 

Now, she may have said something like "R'hllor is going to kill Renly on the morning of battle if he doesn't bend the knee to you" but I do think he is smart enough to put it all together. She has to have given him some reason for needing rowed under the castle with Penrose right? Side note: Why didn't Stannis have to sleep through that? 

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21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I agree with this. The reason I think he owns some blame is that even though she didn't give him all the details ahead of time, after the fact he can put two & two together. He has to know what transpired, even if he doesn't know the shadow baby was born from his loins.

It’s been a good while since I read the pertinent bits, so I don’t remember off the top of my head... does he know though? I mean, it seems that most people (who talk about Renly’s death anyway) believe he was either killed by Brienne or someone else. I don’t remember a magic shadow assassin being mentioned by anyone other than Cat, Brienne, etc. It seems I have some homework. :)

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He doesn't punish her & isn't angry with her over it, so that leads me to believe he did have some idea Renly wasn't going to make it to that battlefield. I just don't think Mel would do this without Stannis's permission. 

I totally see Mel doing whatever she deems necessary or in Red Rahloo’s best interest behind Stannis or anyone else’s backs. 

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Now, she may have said something like "R'hllor is going to kill Renly on the morning of battle if he doesn't bend the knee to you" but I do think he is smart enough to put it all together.

I think he is too. But I also think he’s sceptic when it comes to magic, and he knows he was asleep so he may think that that is proof enough that he didn’t do it. 

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She has to have given him some reason for needing rowed under the castle with Penrose right?

Yeah, I suppose. But I don’t remember how that(those) convo(s) went. More homework. 

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Side note: Why didn't Stannis have to sleep through that? 

Not sure. Do we know he wasn’t sleeping? I’m just realising that there are many details I don’t remember about any of this. 

But Penrose’s death is officially a suicide. Isn’t it? Whereas Renly’s was clearly murder...

And it just occurred to me, irt Renly’s death, isn’t there something about someone trying to wake Stannis up and not being able to? 

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On 3/29/2020 at 9:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I don't think that's how murder works. You're not guilty of a murder because you don't grieve enough or don't stop loving the person who did the killing. There was nothing in her power she could do to stop it. Viserys broke an age old custom & bared naked steel in the sacred city. At that point his life was forfeit as far as any of the Dothraki were concerned, regardless of how Dany felt about him. 

Also, he had just threatened to kill her baby & kidnap her so it certainly could be argued he was killed in defense of Dany. 

She actually played no part in the murder. None at all. 

She was still complicit on the murder. That's hot murder works. She wasn't against the murder that her hausbant commited in forn of her. She sisi not kill him herself but she is not innocent, that's what today's ethics tell us.

 

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On 3/29/2020 at 9:14 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I'd call it emnity; the Tyrells never tried to influence things through Stannis, his denial of the legitimacy of Robert's "Children" hurts their legitimacy as a part of the royal family. It's made them blind to Cersei moving against them to isolate Margaery by having Mace Tyrell siege Storm's End and sending Loras to a disastrous campaign to Dragonstone.

We are talking of War of The Five Kings. The Tyrells were not in the royal family yet.

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25 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

She was still complicit on the murder. That's hot murder works. She wasn't against the murder that her hausbant commited in forn of her. She sisi not kill him herself but she is not innocent, that's what today's ethics tell us.

False. She could not stopt it, Viserys was about to abuse her.  

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s been a good while since I read the pertinent bits, so I don’t remember off the top of my head... does he know though? I mean, it seems that most people (who talk about Renly’s death anyway) believe he was either killed by Brienne or someone else. I don’t remember a magic shadow assassin being mentioned by anyone other than Cat, Brienne, etc. It seems I have some homework

Ahh ya know I don't know? I imagine he does because he says he dreams it. Maybe he thinks it is just a dream? Surely, he asked how his brother died? I suppose Mel didn't have to tell him the truth though. 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

totally see Mel doing whatever she deems necessary or in Red Rahloo’s best interest behind Stannis or anyone else’s backs

I guess what I mean is she may do it but if it has been against his wishes or without his permission I think she would have been punished for it. I think at the very least he was ok with it after the fact. 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

think he is too. But I also think he’s sceptic when it comes to magic, and he knows he was asleep so he may think that that is proof enough that he didn’t do it. 

I think that's what he is telling himself but I think deep down or on a subconscious level he has to know. 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I suppose. But I don’t remember how that(those) convo(s) went. More homework

Me either exactly but iirc Stannis gives Davos the command to smuggle her in. 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure. Do we know he wasn’t sleeping? I’m just realising that there are many details I don’t remember about any of this

But Penrose’s death is officially a suicide. Isn’t it? Whereas Renly’s was clearly murder...

And it just occurred to me, irt Renly’s death, isn’t there something about someone trying to wake Stannis up and not being able to? 

I'm basing the assumption he wasn't sleeping on him giving Davos the order but maybe he went to sleep after? 

Yeah, Penrose is officially a suicide but Mel had to give Stannis some reason for needing to be smuggled in right? I think it's willful ignorance if he can't see the connection between these two deaths & Mel. 

Yeah, Davos's son is trying to wake him up & can't. I wonder if he dreamt about Renly's death if he could've dreamt about Cortnays too? 

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54 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

She was still complicit on the murder.

What makes her complicit? Not grieving or not feeling bad does not make you complicit. 

54 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

That's hot murder works. She wasn't against the murder that her hausbant commited in forn of her

Nope, that's not how it works either. Your feelings on a murderer & the victim have absolutely no bearing on your own possible guilt in the murder. 

56 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

She sisi not kill him herself but she is not innocent, that's what today's ethics tell us.

No, not at all. In order to hold some blame here she would either have to - command the murder, participate in the murder, or have some power to stop the murder & choose not to take it. None of these things are true. 

I don't like rapists & if someone kills one I'm probably not going to grieve much or feel bad. Does that make me complicit in their murder? 

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On 3/28/2020 at 9:49 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So given how much the topic was discussed in the Baratheon brothers thread, I thought I should make a separate thread for this question. Here's what we know for a fact happened:

  • Stannis was sleeping with Mel before the crucial events, which is important as it was his ,,contribution" to the creation of the shadow assassin.
  • Mel said she birthed the shadow assassin alone without need of help due to how unprotected Renly's cam was to something like this.
  • The assassin had Stannis's face.
  • During the events Stannis couldn't wake.
  • Afterwards his recollection of events to Davos seems a bit fishy, especially:
  • Stannis claims he didn't see the event, but somehow dreams of it in very exact fashion.

So from the last four thing we can deduce that Stannis at east saw the event take place and that his mind was stuck in the shadow assassin. That's why he recollects the thing vividly and why he was in a trans like sleep. He ,,was" (or at least his mind was) there during the assassination. However the question is, was he the one to actively to the deed, or was he just a helpless bystander. I'd have to say that it was Mel actively controlling the thing given the following:

  • Mel is the sorceress here, it would be kinda off a dumb spell if Stannis was the one in control and not her.
  • The shadow didn't show even a hint of hesitation, just coldly doing it's duty. Stannis might have done the deed given the circumstances, but I don't think he could have done it without even flinching.
  • Stannis thinks more about the external events then the actual act. If he was the one in control, I think he would have vividly remembered doing it, not ,,a woman's scream".

But that's just my opinion. Honestly we don't have enough proof on either side to say for sure. Maybe we'll find out if we ever have another Mel POV. What do you think? Is Stannis guilty of fratricide? Or is he only guilty of having sex with Mel?

 

Well his brother was a rebel, that’s treason and the death penalty exists in Westeros. The legal line of succession is pretty clear and Renly was by his admission in breach of that. Plus it’s a time of war and Stannis isn’t a signatory to anything like the Geneva Convention. He’s a clear enemy’s combatant. Stannis also did have a fireside chat with Renly so he gave him a chance. That’s above and beyond what most would do. 

See the word Guilty implies he’s committed a crime. How? Has that kind of magic been banned? People don’t know magic exists so it’s not banned. “It freaks me out” isn’t a very grounded opinion. A Direwolf should freak people out as well. Is it illegal to assassinate the enemy commander? Being his brother is immaterial to it.

Its trite to cast moral judgement on it because he didn’t bludgeon Renly to death with a Warhammer. People would have no issue accepting that instead of going “ohh its murder. Cold blooded.”.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Well his brother was a rebel, that’s treason and the death penalty exists in Westeros. The legal line of succession is pretty clear and Renly was by his admission in breach of that. Plus it’s a time of war and Stannis isn’t a signatory to anything like the Geneva Convention. He’s a clear enemy’s combatant. Stannis also did have a fireside chat with Renly so he gave him a chance. That’s above and beyond what most would do

It's gets muddy though doesn't it? Because by the laws of Westeros Stannis himself is a traitor & a rebel. According to the King, neither are next in line to the throne. 

37 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

See the word Guilty implies he’s committed a crime. How? Has that kind of magic been banned? People don’t know magic exists so it’s not banned. “It freaks me out” isn’t a very grounded opinion. A Direwolf should freak people out as well. Is it illegal to assassinate the enemy commander? Being his brother is immaterial to it

I think being a rebel & murdering another rebel may be seen as a crime in universe. More than that though, when I'm asking this question it's more on a moral or ethical basis. Is he guilty morally? We also know kinslaying is seen as a horrible practice in universe, so there is that to consider as well. 

39 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Its trite to cast moral judgement on it because he didn’t bludgeon Renly to death with a Warhammer. People would have no issue accepting that instead of going “ohh its murder. Cold blooded.

Indeed & I'm not of this opinion. Killing someone is killing someone, regardless of how you do it. But that's not how they would look at it in universe. At least not some of them. They would call it cowardly & craven, & done by black magic would probably only inflate that opinion. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What makes her complicit? Not grieving or not feeling bad does not make you complicit. 

Nope, that's not how it works either. Your feelings on a murderer & the victim have absolutely no bearing on your own possible guilt in the murder. 

No, not at all. In order to hold some blame here she would either have to - command the murder, participate in the murder, or have some power to stop the murder & choose not to take it. None of these things are true. 

I don't like rapists & if someone kills one I'm probably not going to grieve much or feel bad. Does that make me complicit in their murder? 

It's not the same because her Hausbant killed her brother in front of her and she did nothing to stop him. She is complicit.

Anyway this convo is far off. Stannis DID murder Renly, it's not the same as Daenerys.

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's gets muddy though doesn't it? Because by the laws of Westeros Stannis himself is a traitor & a rebel. According to the King, neither are next in line to the throne. 

I think being a rebel & murdering another rebel may be seen as a crime in universe. More than that though, when I'm asking this question it's more on a moral or ethical basis. Is he guilty morally? We also know kinslaying is seen as a horrible practice in universe, so there is that to consider as well. 

Indeed & I'm not of this opinion. Killing someone is killing someone, regardless of how you do it. But that's not how they would look at it in universe. At least not some of them. They would call it cowardly & craven, & done by black magic would probably only inflate that opinion. 

 

The previous Hand of the King confirmed that Joffrey was illegitimate. Ned has no reason to usurp his allies son and nothing to gain setting Stannis on the throne. Plus his honesty is beyond repute. Everyone should know Stannis is the legal King and Jof is incest child. They don’t, despite the Lannister’s being in a tough spot in Clash, because reasons...

Stannis didn’t kill Renly at a dinner table. He was an enemy commander in the field with an army coming to kill Stannis. Assassinating an empire commander is a legitimate tactic in war; still firmly employed even today. Stannis even did it without collateral damage. 

Renly sending his army to kill Stannis is threatening kinslaying. He’s just using his army rather than magic to do it.

Was Robert a kinslayer for killing Rhaegar and overthrowing a branch of his own family? What about Rob looping off Karstarks thick inbred Northern skull? If it’s only kinslaying if they have the same last name then that seems a very narrow and weak definition of family and kin.

Plus I don’t think it’s consistently applied in terms of how much moral vehemence people have for this. I think this is bound up in an archaic and absurd notion of honour that we shouldn’t take seriously. If your brother is trying to kill you then it’s not kinslaying if you get him first; after you tried to talk him out of it. Tsar Ivan the Terrible murdered his son but that wasn’t on the field of battle, he just snapped and killed him out of rage in an argument. If his son had raised a rebellion against him and was in a field of battle I doubt it would be anywhere near as notorious an event. Context is important. I mean Peter the Great has his own captive son tortured to death yet he’s considered a great statesman and founder of modern Russia. What Stannis did was tame.

 

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On 3/29/2020 at 10:19 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

D&D is that you? The piece of shit had almost killed her and her unborn child. Also she did nothing, I repeat nothing to kill Viserys. Not doing anything when someone is getting killed is a far cry from ordering someone's death. She is about as guilty of his death (which let's be honest, he bloody earned it) as the horse.

Calling me D&D is not funny, xd.

Also I said she is a complict for the murder, not that she did it. If you ask a lawyer he will tell you the same. I don't claim that law in Westeros and Essos is similar to today's one but for the ethics of us, the readers, she is a complict to the murder (even if Virserys would be dead even if she tried to help him). She did nothing to prevent her husbant from killing her brother.

Anyway the topic is abotu Stannis and it's not the same at all. Stannis did proactively play a part in Renly's murder and Stannis did want him dead for him to achieve his goals. He played a part in the blood magic and he is responsible. 

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5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Stannis didn’t kill Renly at a dinner table. He was an enemy commander in the field with an army coming to kill Stannis. Assassinating an empire commander is a legitimate tactic in war; still firmly employed even today. Stannis even did it without collateral damage. 

That's quite true. He still murdered Renly.

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Just now, Dreadscythe95 said:

That's quite true. He still murdered Renly.

 

Murder implies he committed a crime. Killing the enemy commander with magic is not a crime. Did Robert murder Rhaegar at the Trident? Saying Stannis murdered Renly casts a moral judgement that inappropriate to what he does. 

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10 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

It's not the same because her Hausbant killed her brother in front of her and she did nothing to stop him. She is complicit

Having a murder committed in front of you does not make you complicit, even when committed by your husband. It wouldn't have mattered if she did try anything to stop it, there was nothing she could do. 

11 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Anyway this convo is far off. Stannis DID murder Renly, it's not the same as Daenerys

Indeed. I do believe that was my original point. 

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4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Murder implies he committed a crime. Killing the enemy commander with magic is not a crime. Did Robert murder Rhaegar at the Trident? Saying Stannis murdered Renly casts a moral judgement that inappropriate to what he does. 

It wasn't a killing in battle. He murdered him by magic. Tywin was also in a war with the Starks but he did play a part in their murder. I think we are playing with words here guys... 

The question is, is Stannis moraly forgiven? That's the only thing that matters.

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