Theon and Jeyne

[Eternally_Theirs]

What do you think Theon and Jeyne's fate would be? Will they live or will they die?

I personally hope they live and abandon the game, retiring to Braavos.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

27 minutes ago, Eternally_His said:

I personally hope they live and abandon the game, retiring to Braavos.

And Theon's fingers grow back along with his willy (presuming it isn't there as Martin kinda left it in the air, with hints on both sides) while Jeyne somehow get's un-raped. Nah that's not how the series works. My guess it that eventually Jeyne will be found to be an impostor, probably after Winterfell falls and then probably either die or be left out of the story (put it this way, she's definitely not getting married). Theon on the other hand will probably go along with Asha to were ever she is going to go after she is freed (there is the additional complication that she might be pregnant).

[Eternally_Theirs]

And why can't they get married?

Two individuals that went through a terrible ordeal finding comfort in one another doesn't seem that unrealistic to me.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Eternally_His said:

And why can't they get married?

Two individuals that went through a terrible ordeal finding comfort in one another doesn't seem that unrealistic to me.

Well for one, consummation might be a little difficult even if Theon has the other thing on, given how messed up both of them are in the head.

[Eternally_Theirs]

And whoever said that they would have to consummate the marriage? They would be marrying for comfort, not for baby-making.....

[shameeka]

Do they even have enough money to go to Braavos?

[TheThreeEyedCow]

I think Jeyne might get to stay as Arya. Elsewise the Northmen will feel duped for making a big sacrifice to save what they thought was Arya. And it would mean that the real Arya wouldn't have to return to the nobility. She could go on being no-one, if she prefers it. It could be a well kept secret. But that's just a guess. I mean, nobody really cares about a Jeyne Poole. Her story is sad. And she deserves justice. But a life as Arya Stark would be a better reward considering she had to take the brunt of impersonating her. I suppose I see her as earning her place at WF. Maybe at her best friend's (Sansa's) side. 

I think Theon has to die. It would be (for me) the only way he could redeem himself. And I don't mean he should be executed. I think he should make the ultimate sacrifice himself. And not because he owes the Starks. But because he needs to qualify. He needs to show the reader that he isn't the same narcissistic, entitled brat that he starts out as. 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

He needs to show the reader that he isn't the same narcissistic, entitled brat that he starts out as. 

I don't think anybody still think that. After Ramsay starts playing with him all the arrogance and entitledness disappears, and what we're left is just a broken shell of a man. But the thing that' really great is that from that point he slowly manages to rebuild himself into a person again. But I don't think anybody even hates him anymore, not after what he went t

[Gingin]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

while Jeyne somehow get's un-raped.

Of course, Jeyne was brutally raped and this cannot be changed nor forgotten. But there’s a slight possibility that

Spoiler

someone heals her nose.
Theon I, Winds of Winter:

”When the tip of her nose turned black from frostbite, and the one of the riders from the Night's Watch told her she might lose a piece of it, Jeyne had wept over that as well.”

Now, I’m not a native English speaker, but “might” doesn’t mean “is going to”. It is used when something is less sure. 

I hope she and Theon survive. Ramsay Snow shouldn’t get the satisfaction of their death.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think anybody still think that. After Ramsay starts playing with him all the arrogance and entitledness disappears, and what we're left is just a broken shell of a man. But the thing that' really great is that from that point he slowly manages to rebuild himself into a person again. But I don't think anybody even hates him anymore, not after what he went t

I'm not so sure. He quite literally butchered innocent children. Not for his own survival. He could of taken the silver and some hostages and left WF behind. He did it for greed. He did it because he thought he had a right. And sadly, Theon hasn't really stopped being Theon imo. When he's being confronted by Mance's washerwomen, he daydreams to himself that he'd rape one of them. And....

Spoiler

I've put this in a spoiler tag because I think it happens in the Stannis tWow chapter. He (Theon) says something like "I saved her..." Meaning (f)Arya. Then Stannis (I think) responds by saying it was Mors Umber that did the saving.....

 ...and we the reader know that it was those poor washerwomen that made the sacrifice to get (f)Arya out. NOT Theon. 

The murder of children is right up there. It's basically the worst thing a person can do. Period. The north is populated by men who hold the belief that when the winter comes, the lives of old men are forfeit. It is the children that must be kept safe.  Theon is still thinking only of himself... 

I'll wager that GRRM kills off every character that hurt/killed a child by series end. I feel very certain. 

[Gingin]

2 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

and we the reader know that it was those poor washerwomen that made the sacrifice to get (f)Arya out. NOT Theon. 

He participated in her rescue and he jumped with her. Sure, he should have said “we”, but well... he’s Theon.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Just now, Gingin said:

He participated in her rescue and he jumped with her. Sure, he should have said “we”, but well... he’s Theon.

Which is my point entirely.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I'm not so sure. He quite literally butchered innocent children. Not for his own survival. He could of taken the silver and some hostages and left WF behind. He did it for greed. He did it because he thought he had a right.

Yeah he did some really horrific shit. But he more then paid for what he did. Death would have been an appropriate sentence. What happened to him was worse then death however.

5 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

And sadly, Theon hasn't really stopped being Theon imo. When he's being confronted by Mance's washerwomen, he daydreams to himself that he'd rape one of them

Honestly given all that happened to him, any sense of sexuality must be so messed up (presuming he isn't a eunuch), that I can't hold anything against him. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he tried to have sex with a rock. Plus I never got the sense he wanted to rape her, especially given his and Asha's proclivities for wroth sex.

8 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I'll wager that GRRM kills off every character that hurt/killed a child by series end. I feel very certain. 

He will probably die by the end, but it will not be any punishment in that. Theon is probably the character that suffered the most in this series, and it would be kinda ironic if his punishment at the end is to stay alive and have to make peace with himself over all that he did.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah he did some really horrific shit. But he more then paid for what he did. Death would have been an appropriate sentence. What happened to him was worse then death however.

Honestly given all that happened to him, any sense of sexuality must be so messed up (presuming he isn't a eunuch), that I can't hold anything against him. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he tried to have sex with a rock. Plus I never got the sense he wanted to rape her, especially given his and Asha's proclivities for wroth sex.

He will probably die by the end, but it will not be any punishment in that. Theon is probably the character that suffered the most in this series, and it would be kinda ironic if his punishment at the end is to stay alive and have to make peace with himself over all that he did.

Clearly, you are a more forgiving soul than I could ever be.

Let's not trip ourselves up, here. I did say in my original post that I didn't believe he would be executed. So I am not saying GRRM will definitively have him punished (I agree that Ramsey kind of did that already). What I am saying is that thus far, Theon hasn't really changed. He's just weakened. In order to complete his arc, it is my opinion that he has to make a real sacrifice, instead of sacrificing others for his gain. And I don't believe he rescued (f)Arya. This is clearly to work of Mance's washerwomen. Theon is merely a dog who bit his cruel master, so to speak. He had every reason to turn on Bolton and make an escape. It just isn't an act of heroism. And so it has almost no redeeming aspects to it. For me.

For one moment, imagine you are a Northman. A Northman who wants justice. Would you allow him to live. Could you? The one thing that every northman can agree on, from  Deepwood Motte to White Harbour. A sentiment that would unite all houses, is that Theon Greyjoy must die. The only reason he breaths, is the fact Stannis has a plan for him. Elsewise, he'd be given to the tree, or burned alive. Or he wouldn't even get an execution because the mob of mountain men would tear him apart. You know, like wolves do. 

Actually, he's betrayed everybody by this point. Stark and their allies, Bolton, and with the stunt he helped pull off at Motte Calin, the IB too. There isn't a suitable punishment for his collective crimes imo. 

I don't hate Theon. He makes a poor villain. I sort of pity him. As I do Viserys and to some extent Tyrion. These are men who are too wrapped up in perceived slights. So much so that the innocent are made to suffer. So I see him as someone who still has a way to go. I like the idea that Ramsey's bitches will sort of like Theon. He fed them, slept with them. I love the mental imagery of Ramsey trying to use the dogs against him (Theon) and they disobey their master. It would highlight how ruling with tyranny makes your cause weak and susceptible to insurrection. So I think there's a lot of story left for Theon to truly redeem himself. I just don't think it's happened yet. The idea he could take credit for the rescuing of (f)Arya is a bit of a joke. And the idea that his torture/punishment could make him a better man is also very questionable imo. What would that say about humanity if the answer to violence was more violence? 

[aryagonnakill#2]

6 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Clearly, you are a more forgiving soul than I could ever be.

Let's not trip ourselves up, here. I did say in my original post that I didn't believe he would be executed. So I am not saying GRRM will definitively have him punished (I agree that Ramsey kind of did that already). What I am saying is that thus far, Theon hasn't really changed. He's just weakened. In order to complete his arc, it is my opinion that he has to make a real sacrifice, instead of sacrificing others for his gain. And I don't believe he rescued (f)Arya. This is clearly to work of Mance's washerwomen. Theon is merely a dog who bit his cruel master, so to speak. He had every reason to turn on Bolton and make an escape. It just isn't an act of heroism. And so it has almost no redeeming aspects to it. For me.

For one moment, imagine you are a Northman. A Northman who wants justice. Would you allow him to live. Could you? The one thing that every northman can agree on, from  Deepwood Motte to White Harbour. A sentiment that would unite all houses, is that Theon Greyjoy must die. The only reason he breaths, is the fact Stannis has a plan for him. Elsewise, he'd be given to the tree, or burned alive. Or he wouldn't even get an execution because the mob of mountain men would tear him apart. You know, like wolves do. 

Actually, he's betrayed everybody by this point. Stark and their allies, Bolton, and with the stunt he helped pull off at Motte Calin, the IB too. There isn't a suitable punishment for his collective crimes imo. 

I don't hate Theon. He makes a poor villain. I sort of pity him. As I do Viserys and to some extent Tyrion. These are men who are too wrapped up in perceived slights. So much so that the innocent are made to suffer. So I see him as someone who still has a way to go. I like the idea that Ramsey's bitches will sort of like Theon. He fed them, slept with them. I love the mental imagery of Ramsey trying to use the dogs against him (Theon) and they disobey their master. It would highlight how ruling with tyranny makes your cause weak and susceptible to insurrection. So I think there's a lot of story left for Theon to truly redeem himself. I just don't think it's happened yet. The idea he could take credit for the rescuing of (f)Arya is a bit of a joke. And the idea that his torture/punishment could make him a better man is also very questionable imo. What would that say about humanity if the answer to violence was more violence? 

Where does this come from?  There are survivors from Ser Rodricks force with Stannis' army.  They know who sacked Winterfell and don't know and probably wouldn't care about the 2 boys.  He thinks this is what all the lords want to come and talk to him about, but he doesn't know it and neither do we.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

And the idea that his torture/punishment could make him a better man is also very questionable imo. What would that say about humanity if the answer to violence was more violence? 

The torture didn't make him a better man, it made him less of a man. It was his mental fight against all the evil shit that Ramsay did to him that made him a better man at the end. I think Jayne from the first moment, made a difference in him. See back when he was a ward I think the most revealing part is how he treated those below him like Jon, and that is with arrogance and superiority. However with Jeyne, who is the only person in the same shit as he is, instead of taking all his pent up felling on her he instead actively tries to help ad support her, even if he can't really do that much. That at least shows some growth.

9 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

So I am not saying GRRM will definitively have him punished (I agree that Ramsey kind of did that already).

,,Kind of"??? Mate what more do you want him to go through? Flaying, beatings, possible castration, not to mention Ramsay completely breaking his spirit, what else do you need?

2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Where does this come from?  There are survivors from Ser Rodricks force with Stannis' army.  They know who sacked Winterfell and don't know and probably wouldn't care about the 2 boys.  He thinks this is what all the lords want to come and talk to him about, but he doesn't know it and neither do we.

Exactly! The Northern lords keep talking about ,,saving Ned's little girl" not ,,killing the turncloak".

[Nevets]

Double, deleted

 

 

[Nevets]

Jeyne is most likely headed to Braavos, but without Theon. 

Theon told her that she would have to continue being Arya.  Stannis sent her to Castle Black with two men headed to Braavos.

. I expect that she will meet the real Arya there and be the catalyst for her return to Westeros.

As for Theon, I don't know, but I think Stannis gives in and executes him.

I very much doubt that Jeyne and Theon remain together.  I also think it is likely that Jeyne is pregnant by Ramsay.

[Nevets]

10 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Where does this come from?  There are survivors from Ser Rodricks force with Stannis' army.  They know who sacked Winterfell and don't know and probably wouldn't care about the 2 boys.  He thinks this is what all the lords want to come and talk to him about, but he doesn't know it and neither do we.

They care very much about the (supposed) deaths of Bran and Rickon, which are still laid at Theon's feet.  We know that a Liddle met Bran, but we don't know if he told anyone else or how widely known it is if he did.  If Theon is executed, it will probably be for that.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don't know about Jeyne, but I like the theory that Asha will convince Stannis to spare Theon by using the Latecomer loophole, and pledging that if Theon is allowed to return to the Iron Islands and take the Seastone Chair, the Ironborn will declare for Stannis.