Theon and Jeyne

[Nevets]

28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don't know about Jeyne, but I like the theory that Asha will convince Stannis to spare Theon by using the Latecomer loophole, and pledging that if Theon is allowed to return to the Iron Islands and take the Seastone Chair, the Ironborn will declare for Stannis. 

I like the idea of using the Latecomer loophole (it's there for a reason) but I don't see Theon being chosen.  He's too broken.  Asha herself is a legitimate choice though, and allying with Stannis would make sense.

[Jekse]

19 hours ago, Eternally_His said:

They would be marrying for comfort, not for baby-making.....

Not really how marriages work in asoiaf

[Mithras]

There is only one way to save Theon: he will confess the truth before the heart tree and ask to take the black. And that is how he will get himself a place among the people destined to the Wall including Jeyne. But they will not make it to Castle Black nor meet Jon in any way. They will get the news of the chaos at the Wall and want to avoid getting involved in that mess. Furthermore, both Theon and Jeyne will naturally want to avoid meeting Jon. In addition to that, Theon will take notice of Justin Massey’s dwindling faith in Stannis and desire to claim fArya for himself. After a brief consideration, Massey, fArya and Theon will decide to go directly to Eastwatch and from there to Braavos with Tycho. fArya will insist Theon come with them.

In Braavos, Arya will see Jeyne and learn her story. By the way, Arya's rage over what Ramsay did to Jeyne will spill over the Narrow Sea and influence Nymeria such that she will take her pack and move North to hunt down Ramsay and his wolfhounds. Arya will kill Justin Massey and convince Jeyne to switch places with her. Jeyne will be accepted to the House of Black and White and Arya will go back to being Arya. Since Jeyne is way too much broken, I guess she might commit suicide at that sweetsleep pool, or maybe the Faceless Men might recover her enough to find her a place.

Arya and Theon on the other hand will find a ship and return to Westeros. Arya will drop at Maidenpool to go deal with Lady Stoneheart whereas Theon will stay on the ship and eventually reach Oldtown to search for the daughter of Myraham’s captain. He will find her with the baby she got from Theon. From there, Theon will go to the Iron Islands to play the Latecomer card with the support of Rodrik Harlaw but Euron will be long dead by that time and Theon will be invalidating the new kingsmoot which will have elected Aeron as the new king. 

As for Asha, she is toast. Stannis will sacrifice her.

See you in TWoW 

[Eternally_Theirs]

2 hours ago, Jekse said:

Not really how marriages work in asoiaf

It will work for them. He's been disowned by his dad and she is from a minor house. Therefore, they have an option to marry for comfort.

[Jekse]

3 minutes ago, Eternally_His said:

He's been disowned by his dad

A dead rebel 

 

3 minutes ago, Eternally_His said:

from a minor house.

An extinct house

 

3 minutes ago, Eternally_His said:

Therefore, they have an option to marry for comfort.

A marriage that would be annulled by the high septon or completely ignored so that Theon can become a political pawn for power over the Iron Islands. 

If that doesn't convince you, here are Theon's own words:
''Jeyne Poole had wept all the way from Winterfell to here, wept until her face was purple as a beetroot and the tears had frozen on her cheeks, and all because he told her that she must be Arya, or else the wolves might send them back. "They trained you in a brothel," he reminded her, whispering in her ear so the others would not hear. "Jeyne is the next thing to a whore, you must go on being Arya."

[Eternally_Theirs]

Since when did the High Septon - or any Septon for that matter - have any authority to meddle in the affairs that take place on another continent?

[Jekse]

1 minute ago, Eternally_His said:

Since when did the High Septon - or any Septon for that matter - have any authority to meddle in the affairs that take place on another continent?

That's my point. Westerosi opportunists would just ignore the marriage. And Theon would be back to being someone's hostage. Which has been his role since he was ten.

[Eternally_Theirs]

I repeat: since when do they have the authority to meddle in affairs taking place on another continent?

[aryagonnakill#2]

11 hours ago, Nevets said:

I like the idea of using the Latecomer loophole (it's there for a reason) but I don't see Theon being chosen.  He's too broken.  Asha herself is a legitimate choice though, and allying with Stannis would make sense.

How can Asha use the latecomer loophole when she was there the 1st time?

[Seams]

22 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Theon is merely a dog who bit his cruel master, so to speak.

I think the dog symbolism may be a key observation. The Clegane family uses a sigil with three dogs.

My thinking is that Theon is becoming a Sandor Clegane figure:

• Both killed children. (The Hound killed Micah; Theon worked with Ramsay to kill the miller's boys.)
• Both were maimed for, essentially, hubris. (Theon for trying to control the North; The Hound for taking Gregor's marvelous wooden knight.)
• Both left their "masters." (The Hound disappearing at the Battle of the Blackwater; Theon going over the wall with Jeyne during the snowstorm.)
• Both have been on a redemption arc of sorts. (The Hound helping real Arya, even if he had a profit motive; Theon for helping fArya/Jeyne.)
• Both are associated with burials. (The Hound seems to be the gravedigger; Theon is able to get people into the Winterfell crypt.)

Although the murder of the miller's sons was horrible, keep in mind that GRRM loves irony. If Theon had not invaded Winterfell, the Boltons would have taken over earlier and would have killed the real Bran and Rickon. Theon's misguided attempt to install himself as the Prince of Winterfell actually allowed Bran and Rickon to escape, saving their lives.

This follows his earlier successful rescue of Bran from the Night's Watch deserter traveling with Osha. No one appreciated that his unique skill with a bow and arrow resolved that otherwise ominous situation for Bran. (We probably need to analyze the role of archers in the series to get a better sense of Theon's unique skill and what it means. Anguy is the other skilled archer GRRM has given us in the contemporary story. Jalabhar Xho is also associated with the special bows made in the Summer Islands. Theon as a prince/ward/hostage and Jalabhar as a prince/exile are probably worth comparing, along with the "summer" symbolism shared by Bran's direwolf and the Summer Isles.)

My guess is that Jeyne is pregnant by Ramsay and the Captain's Daughter is also pregnant by Theon from his travel on the ship Myraham in ACoK. Jeyne will die in childbirth but the two babies will somehow become milk brothers or be swapped in the manner of Gilly and Dalla's babies.

Theon will somehow sacrifice himself in a way that allows the Starks to return to Winterfell. Something similar will happen with Sandor Clegane.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I think the dog symbolism may be a key observation. The Clegane family uses a sigil with three dogs.

My thinking is that Theon is becoming a Sandor Clegane figure:

• Both killed children. (The Hound killed Micah; Theon worked with Ramsay to kill the miller's boys.)
• Both were maimed for, essentially, hubris. (Theon for trying to control the North; The Hound for taking Gregor's marvelous wooden knight.)
• Both left their "masters." (The Hound disappearing at the Battle of the Blackwater; Theon going over the wall with Jeyne during the snowstorm.)
• Both have been on a redemption arc of sorts. (The Hound helping real Arya, even if he had a profit motive; Theon for helping fArya/Jeyne.)
• Both are associated with burials. (The Hound seems to be the gravedigger; Theon is able to get people into the Winterfell crypt.)

Although the murder of the miller's sons was horrible, keep in mind that GRRM loves irony. If Theon had not invaded Winterfell, the Boltons would have taken over earlier and would have killed the real Bran and Rickon. Theon's misguided attempt to install himself as the Prince of Winterfell actually allowed Bran and Rickon to escape, saving their lives.

This follows his earlier successful rescue of Bran from the Night's Watch deserter traveling with Osha. No one appreciated that his unique skill with a bow and arrow resolved that otherwise ominous situation for Bran. (We probably need to analyze the role of archers in the series to get a better sense of Theon's unique skill and what it means. Anguy is the other skilled archer GRRM has given us in the contemporary story. Jalabhar Xho is also associated with the special bows made in the Summer Islands. Theon as a prince/ward/hostage and Jalabhar as a prince/exile are probably worth comparing, along with the "summer" symbolism shared by Bran's direwolf and the Summer Isles.)

My guess is that Jeyne is pregnant by Ramsay and the Captain's Daughter is also pregnant by Theon from his travel on the ship Myraham in ACoK. Jeyne will die in childbirth but the two babies will somehow become milk brothers or be swapped in the manner of Gilly and Dalla's babies.

Theon will somehow sacrifice himself in a way that allows the Starks to return to Winterfell. Something similar will happen with Sandor Clegane.

Yep. I really like this. And I completely agree with the bolded part. I think my earlier post caused some confusion. Which is completely understandable. I fully accept that Theon technically saved those Stark boys; By driving them out and scattering them, they avoided a much crueller fate. 

Where I differ from other readers is that I actually give a shit about those poor lads who had their heads cut off and stuck on a wall. And for what? Theon's pride. I won't forgive it, personally. 
And then, as you said in the last part of your post, Theon will  do something. And maybe then I can feel differently about him. But right now, I don't see that much change in him. It was the washerwomen that saved that girl(Jeyne). Imo. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 3/29/2020 at 4:57 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The torture didn't make him a better man, it made him less of a man. It was his mental fight against all the evil shit that Ramsay did to him that made him a better man at the end. I think Jayne from the first moment, made a difference in him. See back when he was a ward I think the most revealing part is how he treated those below him like Jon, and that is with arrogance and superiority. However with Jeyne, who is the only person in the same shit as he is, instead of taking all his pent up felling on her he instead actively tries to help ad support her, even if he can't really do that much. That at least shows some growth.

Well I'm sorry but I flatly disagree. I don't see any real evidence that he's a better man. Have you read the tWow Stannis chapter? From my perspective, he fell off a wall. Escaping the clutches of his captors. Crushing Jeyne as he landed. It was the washerwomen that sacrificed everything to save Jeyne. He spends nearly all of his time at WF feeling sorry for himself. And right at the end there, he's convinced by the washerwomen that he should help. 

 

On 3/29/2020 at 4:57 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

,,Kind of"??? Mate what more do you want him to go through? Flaying, beatings, possible castration, not to mention Ramsay completely breaking his spirit, what else do you need?

I need him to die. Preferably doing something unselfish.

Let me make something clear in case I haven't already. For me, killing two innocent boys, cutting off their heads and sticking them on a wall is punishable by death. I don't agree with the torture. I didn't want him tortured in the first place.  I don't want him tortured any further. Ramsey's ways are cruel and only serve his own twisted sense of pleasure. Theon got a taste of what countless other people have almost certainly endured. There's nothing special or unique about his particular suffering. So what I am saying is that Theon sort of died. The Theon we knew, anyway. 

 

On 3/29/2020 at 4:53 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Where does this come from?  There are survivors from Ser Rodricks force with Stannis' army.  They know who sacked Winterfell and don't know and probably wouldn't care about the 2 boys.  He thinks this is what all the lords want to come and talk to him about, but he doesn't know it and neither do we.

I care. And I think George will care too.

I suppose there is something of an assumption on my part. I just can't see how after first betraying Stark, then murdering those boys, then leading his comrades out of Moat Calin to be flayed alive, then betraying his new masters (the Boltons) could leave him anywhere but stuck as being The Turncloak. 
 
The Iron Born are already loathed. It's default. But Theon is special because he was raised by the Ned. This is common knowledge. Theon betrayed Rob. Common knowledge. Theon betrayed the IB at MC. Common knowledge. He's just fled WF with Jeyne. Common knowledge. 

What friend does Theon have left to him? And how many enemies? He is alone and singled out in a place and at a time where mutual beneficial relations are necessary to survival. The lone wolf dies but the pack survives. Theon is something of a lone wolf, no? 

So I feel confident in this assumption.

The only person on Planetos that could save Theon, is Bran. But that's a whole different subject. 

[Seams]

4 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

It was the washerwomen that saved that girl (Jeyne). Imo. 

The washerwomen needed Theon, though. The close questioning of Theon about how he managed to break into Winterfell is the important detail: Theon is somehow able to cross barriers that others can't break. Just as Davos had to take Melisandre across the magic barrier at Storm's End, the washerwomen knew that they needed Theon to get fArya / Jeyne out of Winterfell.

Similarly, Lady Dustin sought out Theon when she was unable to find the way into the Winterfell crypt.

We all know from Bran's dream that the Ironborn broke into Winterfell like a wave washing over the top of the castle walls. Theon takes Jeyne out of Winterfell by the same path.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 3/30/2020 at 10:05 PM, Seams said:

The washerwomen needed Theon, though. The close questioning of Theon about how he managed to break into Winterfell is the important detail: Theon is somehow able to cross barriers that others can't break. Just as Davos had to take Melisandre across the magic barrier at Storm's End, the washerwomen knew that they needed Theon to get fArya / Jeyne out of Winterfell.

Similarly, Lady Dustin sought out Theon when she was unable to find the way into the Winterfell crypt.

We all know from Bran's dream that the Ironborn broke into Winterfell like a wave washing over the top of the castle walls. Theon takes Jeyne out of Winterfell by the same path.

I never said nor would I ever say that Theon did nothing to help. What I am saying is that the Washerwomen were the real driving force behind it. Theon helped. But honestly, do you see it as an act of heroism?

For me, he didn't have a huge choice. Staying at WF would of been a death sentence for him. He had nothing to lose IMO. 

I feel as if it's impossible to put that point across; That it is not one extreme or the other.

If The Boltons were treating him kindly, I don't think Theon would of done a damn thing. That is to say, he didn't have a huge desire to protect an innocent person. He wanted to save his own skin. Quite literally.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

On 3/29/2020 at 7:39 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Theon is probably the character that suffered the most in this series, and it would be kinda ironic if his punishment at the end is to stay alive and have to make peace with himself over all that he did.

Theon has suffered the most? Not poor Jeyne Poole? 

Theon proceeded along a series of steps, actions taken in which he always had a clear choice which was a better outcome than the one he chose. Even though each better outcome got worse and worse, he without fail chose the worst possible one.

Please note I'm NOT saying that Theon deserved what happened to him. I'm saying that he consistently put himself in a position where a more and more disastrous outcome for him became more and more likely.

But poor Jeyne Poole never did anything, except be alive and be in Littlefinger's orbit.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Theon has suffered the most? Not poor Jeyne Poole? 

Theon proceeded along a series of steps, actions taken in which he always had a clear choice which was a better outcome than the one he chose. Even though each better outcome got worse and worse, he without fail chose the worst possible one.

Please note I'm NOT saying that Theon deserved what happened to him. I'm saying that he consistently put himself in a position where a more and more disastrous outcome for him became more and more likely.

But poor Jeyne Poole never did anything, except be alive and be in Littlefinger's orbit.

Could you please point to the part were Jeyne was flayed, probably one of the most excruciatingly painful things in the world. While I do agree that Theon's choices really messed him up, and not so much Jeyne, Theon undoubtedly suffered more.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

56 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Could you please point to the part were Jeyne was flayed, probably one of the most excruciatingly painful things in the world. While I do agree that Theon's choices really messed him up, and not so much Jeyne, Theon undoubtedly suffered more.

Wow. Okay.

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Could you please point to the part were Jeyne was flayed, probably one of the most excruciatingly painful things in the world. While I do agree that Theon's choices really messed him up, and not so much Jeyne, Theon undoubtedly suffered more.

I really don't see how you can ignore or downplay the horrors inflicted on Jeyne.

Her "flaying" was when Reek / Theon cut off her dress on her wedding night at Ramsay's direction. When she is naked, Theon notes the "spiderweb of faint lines across her back where someone had whipped her." Later, there's this reminding us of Jeyne's torture from Ramsay, her sexual slavery in addition to the physical torture inflicted with a whip:

Quote

"No. This is some trick. It's him, it's my ... my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sue that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything." A tear ran down her cheek. "Tell him, you tell him. I'll do what he wants ... whatever he wants ... with him or .. or with the dog or ... please ... he doesn't need to cut my feet off, I wont try to run away, not ever, I'll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it ..."

Rowan whistled softly. "Gods curse the man."

"I'm a good girl," Jeyne whimpered. "They trained me."

...

The wolfskin fell away from her. Underneath them she as naked, her small pale breasts covered with teeth marks. He heard one of the women suck in her breath.

I'm not taking anything away from the horrors inflicted on Theon. But it's not a contest between the two of them. They have both suffered extreme and horrific brutality. There are details that tie each of their experiences to the torture of Vargo Hoat. GRRM is not rationing the use of torture against these characters.

7 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I never said nor would I ever say that Theon did nothing to help. What I am saying is that the Washerwomen were the real driving force behind it. Theon helped. But honestly, do you see it as an act of heroism?

For me, he didn't have a huge choice. Staying at WF would have been a death sentence for him. He had nothing to lose IMO. 

I feel as if it's impossible to put that point across; That it is not one extreme or the other.

If The Boltons were treating him kindly, I don't think Theon would of done a damn thing. That is to say, he didn't have a huge desire to protect an innocent person. He wanted to save his own skin. Quite literally.

Theon undergoes a transformation at Winterfell. He stops thinking of himself as Reek. The full extent and nature of his transformation remains to be seen but I think he is moving in the direction of becoming a hero, to the extent that there can be a hero in ASOIAF.

But Theon's own take on the situation is enlightening. As he and the washerwomen coax fArya / Jeyne to escape her bedchamber, he notes:

Quote

... there are no heroes here, only whores. Even so, he knelt beside her, pulled down the furs, touched her cheek. "You know me. I'm Theon, you remember. I know you too. I  know your name."

I think he is including himself among the whores. And I think GRRM is telling us that the entire group - including Theon - is taking a big risk and possibly sacrificing their own safety to rescue Jeyne. That is heroic behavior.

I don't know that Theon saw his situation at Winterfell as a death sentence. He had found a way to survive by accommodating Ramsay's cruel whims. Ramsay likes having a Reek nearby. But I understand that you are stating an opinion, not quoting from the text.

A big part of Theon's transformation at Winterfell is specifically linked to Jeyne:

Quote

A thin film of ice covered the surface of the pool beneath the weirwood. Theon sank to his knees beside it. "Please," he murmured through his broken teeth, "I never meant ..." The words caught in his throat. "Save me," he finally managed. "Give me ... " What? Strength? Courage? Mercy? Snow fell around him, pale and silent, keeping its own counsel. The only sound was a faint soft sobbing. Jeyne, he thought. It is her, sobbing in her bridal bed. Who else could it be? Gods do not weep. Or do they?

The sound was too painful to endure.

This "Save me; Give me Jeyne" prayer is powerful evidence that Theon has a huge desire to rescue Jeyne, although something deep inside of him sees her deliverance as a way to redeem or save himself.

On the symbolic level, note that this key scene starts with the ice on the pool. I think Jeyne Poole symbolizes this godswood pool. He doesn't just look at the pool, however, he sinks to his knees beside it. Like Torrhen Stark, bending the knee to Aegon the Conqueror? Or more like a worshiper humbling himself before his god? Theon acknowledging the ice here is a way of showing that he knows Jeyne's real identity - the pile of wolf skins with which she covers herself in her bedchamber is not who she really is; her real "skin" is ice, not wolf fur. Jeyne trusts Theon because he knows and acknowledges who she really is, although he also helps to teach her to survive around Ramsay.

I also had a long ago theory that Theon symbolizes the sword Ice. Theon's presence at the pool brings us back to Ned washing his sword in that pool after executing Gared. The pool and the sword belong together. The pool washes away the sins of the sword.

Again, not taking anything away from the washerwomen. They are doing great work and putting themselves on the line. I'm not a scholar but it is my understanding that, in Celtic lore, the washerwoman was a manifestation of the Morrigan. She could help a hero but the warriors who set eyes on her would soon die.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 minutes ago, Seams said:

I really don't see how you can ignore or downplay the horrors inflicted on Jeyne.

Her "flaying" was when Reek / Theon cut off her dress on her wedding night at Ramsay's direction. When she is naked, Theon notes the "spiderweb of faint lines across her back where someone had whipped her." Later, there's this reminding us of Jeyne's torture from Ramsay, her sexual slavery and physical torture inflicted with a whip:

There's a shit load of difference. Give me whipping over flaying any time. Also it's fair to point out Jeyne never seems to have completely broke like Theon did. At the beginning of ADWD Theon is a completely broken man and the beauty of his ark is seeing him slowly putting himself back together. I never got the sense Jeyne broke. Sure she suffers a lot, and I do mean a lot, from rape to whipping, but she always seems to remain Jeyne Poole. Even though she does appear to take some of Reek's mannerisms and fears (she seems to have gotten her own Kyra) she is eager enough to escape showing Ramsay never managed to completely brake her. All in all I think Theon had it worse. And of course there's the possibility of him missing that other thing.

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 3/29/2020 at 11:34 PM, Nevets said:

I like the idea of using the Latecomer loophole (it's there for a reason) but I don't see Theon being chosen.  He's too broken.  Asha herself is a legitimate choice though, and allying with Stannis would make sense.

The Latecomer loophole only works for someone who was uninformed about the kingsmoot, which only leaves us with Theon, who was believed to be dead until long afterwards. Theon would probably be used as a figurehead in this case, with Asha and Rodrik the Reader (and possibly Aeron, if he escapes Euron) pulling the strings. Asha will likely come to rule the Iron Islands at the series' end, as Theon's heir.