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How likely is a Jon/Sansa match (aka Jonsa)?


Dot Com

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Thought I'd stir the pot. Some say there is foreshadowing, others say it's ridiculous. What do you think? Personally I come down on the side that it's unlikely, but possible considering George was originally going with Jon/Arya. 

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On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd say it sits somewhere between negative 100 & when hell freezes over, but I've been wrong before. 

Seriously though, I just don't see any evidence for it. I know some people say they do but I don't buy it at all. 

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17 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

Thought I'd stir the pot. Some say there is foreshadowing, others say it's ridiculous. What do you think? Personally I come down on the side that it's unlikely, but possible considering George was originally going with Jon/Arya. 

The latter. And what @Lyanna<3Rhaegar said. Also, for the umpteenth time, the outline was just Martin making shit up b/c his publishers (or whoever) wanted an outline. 

Not that any of that will stop the Jonsa shippers. 

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I do see it happening. There is quite a lot of hints to it and frankly it's too many of them to name in one post. Instead I would to share my personal favorite hint. Both Jon and Sansa think love is secondary to marriage itself and requires effort, both of them desire quiet domesticity, both of them want to recreate their childhood with children of their own. 

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  She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

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A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We’d find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

After all the hell both Jon and Sansa went through (and unfortunately will go through in TWOW & ADOS) they both deserve their soft and sweet epilogue and I think they can give that to each other. 

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2 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

After all the hell both Jon and Sansa went through (and unfortunately will go through in TWOW & ADOS) they both deserve their soft and sweet epilogue and I think they can give that to each other. 

They can give that to other people too, not to their siblings. There a lot of people in the Planetos and those two aren't even close. Besides they are siblings.

I see as likely as Uncat forgiving the Lannisters and even grosser.

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8 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I do see it happening. There is quite a lot of hints to it and frankly it's too many of them to name in one post. Instead I would to share my personal favorite hint. Both Jon and Sansa think love is secondary to marriage itself and requires effort, both of them desire quiet domesticity, both of them want to recreate their childhood with children of their own. 

After all the hell both Jon and Sansa went through (and unfortunately will go through in TWOW & ADOS) they both deserve their soft and sweet epilogue and I think they can give that to each other. 

I don't really see this as evidence toward a Jon & Sansa pairing. Pretty much every noble person in Westeros would think love secondary to marriage. (I don't really see how the Jon quote shows that anyway, but since it's likely how they all think I won't argue it) And how would two people thinking the same thing irt marriage = they will be married one day? 

Idk I've seen a few different people present all their evidence but I've not once seen anything convincing. 

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23 minutes ago, frenin said:

I see as likely as Uncat forgiving the Lannisters and even grosser.

Ditto.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk I've seen a few different people present all their evidence but I've not once seen anything convincing. 

Preach.

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I just don't understand where it comes from. Why not Sansa and Pod then? Pansa? :D Sounds badass and strong IMO (Panzer is the german word for tank:D) They are both shy and underestimated, but have a good heart, are brave, have been through so much and around so many horrible people and survived it all. He is not an heir, so they could keep the Stark name. Wouldn't it be poetic, if a Payne were to help continue the Stark line, when a Payne killed the head of the Stark house? Also would have been quite romantic... the wife and the squire... *sigh* okay, I stop with my ff before I get kicked of the board lol

That being said I wouldn't be upset at all, if it happens. I understand, that the Jonsa fans assume, since we basically have almost nothing about the Jon-Sansa- relationship and their interactions as children, that they never looked at each other as siblings, even though that's not what I believe, I think it's a valid theory. If one of them were suddenly to say in TWOW "I actually never looked at him/her like a brother/sister" IMO that would be surprising, but not in conflict with text up until now (a bit unrealistic, but there is other unrealistic behavior in asoiaf as well)

That being said those books are full of symbolism and foreshadowing (I mean GRRM can hardly contain himself), I just can't see how GRRM wouldn't have played that up more-in clever ways of course, but he would have done it. Sansa and Jon almost never think of one another (even if they suppressed their thoughts of each other (that's what, I've read), that still would manifest itself somehow- at least  in an GRRM book.) And the symbolism some ppl point out (like f.e. Jon being "the hero", that kills Janos Slynt) is never explicitly romantic  nature. Honestly if it came out of nowhere suddenly, it would almost feel like be bad writing to me, especially with all of the fs for everything else constantly.

Just from reading the books- I don't see it and it would have never crossed my mind without the internet. But who knows... :) 

 

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Both Jon and Sansa think love is secondary to marriage itself and requires effort, both of them desire quiet domesticity, both of them want to recreate their childhood with children of their own. 

But those are just parallels between them and not unlikely ones for siblings either, who have been raised together, at the same place, by the same ppl, with the same values. My brother and I share parallels like that as well. But it says nothing about the relationship they have with each other. I don't understand how that would be a hint at something romantic in the future between them. IMO it just points at the similarities they share and how, that could aid building a bond (a sibling one) between them, when they meet again, since they aren't particularly close and the Starks all need a strong bond, when winter comes :) 

Also since when does Sansa thinks love is secondary to marriage? 

And I feel like Jon doesn't really think about marriage that much at all, except for his brief fantasizing, what it would be like to be Lord Stark together with Val and otherwise, that he can never marry at all.

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55 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

Thought I'd stir the pot. Some say there is foreshadowing, others say it's ridiculous. What do you think? Personally I come down on the side that it's unlikely, but possible considering George was originally going with Jon/Arya. 

This pot is empty though; you are stirring thin air. 

At least wait for the guy to stop being dead before you try to marry him off. I mean, yeah he should come back. But we don't know who or what he'll actually be/become. If he comes back in a similar fashion to LS or Beric then I don't think anyone will want to marry him. Like, will his blood flow? Will he even be able to get an erection? Will he even be compatible with other humans? Will he become too fearsome after being a wolf for X amount of time? Will he even be a Targaryen? There's too big a question mark over Jon's head right now. 

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@Lyanna<3Rhaegar What I am getting at is that Jon and Sansa's dreams are compatible. They are also the only ones who voice their interest in rebuilding Winterfell and refer themselves as the Blood of Winterfell. It could very well mean nothing, but it could also be a hint to who will continue the Stark line. This is not the only hint that Jon and Sansa could continue the Stark bloodline. The first time Jon meets Ygritte in ACOK, chapter 51, she tells him the story of Bael the Bard and the Blue Winter Rose:

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“The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver’ in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished … and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.” (Jon VI - A Clash of Kings)

Right next in the following chapter 52, Sansa has her first "flowering". That's the chapter where Sansa gets her first period and is finally fit to bear children to the king.

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“The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You’ve had your first flowering, no more.” Sansa had never felt less flowery. “My lady mother told me, but I… I thought it would be different.”“Different how?”“I don’t know. Less… less messy, and more magical.” Queen Cersei laughed. "Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman’s life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you’ll learn that soon enough… and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all.” She took a sip of milk. “So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?” “It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded,” said Sansa, “and to bear children for the king.” …….

Do you want to be loved, Sansa?“ "Everyone wants to be loved.” “I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.” (Sansa IV - A Clash of Kings)

In the end of the chapter Cersei warns Sansa about love and how dangerous it can be. The following chapter of the book is Jon VII. George really wanted us to picture together Jon, Sansa, love and the Blue Winter Rose Tale. 

And before anyone suggest that this doesn't necessarily mean anything George has said that a girl's flowering is significant , and that he struggled writing Sansa's first period. He probably wanted it to be perfect and for it to mean something. So for him to take this significant Sansa chapter and put it between two Jon's chapters and associate both of them with a tale about the Stark bloodline continuing then it has to mean something. 

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15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

constantly those questions about erections lately... smh First Bran, now Jon...

If I came back from the dead, it's the first thing I'd check. 

I saw the Bran one a little while ago. It was rough. I think this is a bit different though. 

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3 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

What I am getting at is that Jon and Sansa's dreams are compatible. They are also the only ones who voice their interest in rebuilding Winterfell and refer themselves as the Blood of Winterfell. It could very well mean nothing, but it could also be a hint to who will continue the Stark line. This is not the only hint that Jon and Sansa could continue the Stark bloodline. The first time Jon meets Ygritte in ACOK, chapter 51, she tells him the story of Bael the Bard and the Blue Winter Rose:

I would imagine all of the alive Stark children would be interested in rebuilding WF but it would be quite redundant if GRRM had each of them think/say it. 

It could be a hint as to who will continue the Stark bloodline but they would both carry on the Stark bloodline having children with other people also right? 

6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Right next in the following chapter 52, Sansa has her first "flowering". That's the chapter where Sansa gets her first period and is finally fit to bear children to the king.

I don't understand the parallels between Jon hearing the Bael story & Sansa's first flowering. Maybe you could expand on that a little more? 

6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

In the end of the chapter Cersei warns Sansa about love and how dangerous it can be. The following chapter of the book is Jon VII. George really wanted us to picture together Jon, Sansa, love and the Blue Winter Rose Tale. 

And before anyone suggest that this doesn't necessarily mean anything George has said that a girl's flowering is significant , and that he struggled writing Sansa's first period. He probably wanted it to be perfect and for it to mean something. So for him to take this significant Sansa chapter and put it between two Jon's chapters and associate both of them with a tale about the Stark bloodline continuing then it has to mean something. 

I don't think so. The chapter orders have likely been moved around quite a bit. I don't disagree that a girls flowering is significant & understand why George would struggle writing Sansa's first period (he is male for starters, & has never had this experience so things were stacked against him to begin with) I just don't understand how Flowering being significant & George struggling with ->George wanted it to be perfect so it would mean something-> Jon & Sansa will get together. The most problem I'm having is making the jump from step 2 to step 3. 

I agree the Bael story probably means something, I just don't think it has anything to do with Sansa. I don't really see how it could have to do with Sansa. 

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11 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

If I came back from the dead, it's the first thing I'd check. 

What about your face? Or other body functions like.. walking? lol 

I'd check first, if I could still eat and most importantly taste the food :D

Also I feel like you're answer is the reason why men and women will never ever truly understand each other :laugh: No matter what we do, there is just something we'll never get lol 

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16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think so. The chapter orders have likely been moved around quite a bit. I don't disagree that a girls flowering is significant & understand why George would struggle writing Sansa's first period (he is male for starters, & has never had this experience so things were stacked against him to begin with) I just don't understand how Flowering being significant & George struggling with ->George wanted it to be perfect so it would mean something-> Jon & Sansa will get together. The most problem I'm having is making the jump from step 2 to step 3. 

Like I said I don't think Jon & Sansa is impossible but I agree that the chapter order thing is farfetched. There is also a Tyrion-Sansa-Tyrion sequence in ACOK and I don't think anyone here would argue that makes Tyrion & Sansa inevitable. As for the period thing... yeah, that comes down to GRRM being male. 

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20 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree the Bael story probably means something, I just don't think it has anything to do with Sansa. I don't really see how it could have to do with Sansa. 

The story talks about a Winter Rose and how it's a symbol of a Stark Maiden. Next chapter Sansa has her first period/flowering, she literally "blooms". It implies that Sansa is a Winter Rose of this generation and that the Stark line will most likely continue through her. On top of that GRRM refers Sansa to as the "Key to the North" in A Storm of Swords. When Theon thinks of claiming Winterfell his first thought goes to Sansa. Tyrion wanted to become Warden of the North through her and when Stannis presents Winterfell to Jon Sansa is also brought up. Whenever a POV character is tempted with Winterfell Sansa is miraculously brought up. George is really hammering us that Sansa is the Key to get the North. He is literally telling us that Sansa is the Guinevere of ASOIAF. 

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