How likely is a Jon/Sansa match (aka Jonsa)?

[Nevets]

I have a hard time seeing a romance between them; they're not each other's type.  Jon likes the Arya archetype (Ygritte and Val).  I can see him with someone like Wylla Manderly or Meera Reed.  And I don't see Jon as Sansa's type either.  Plus they still think of themselves as siblings.

I can see Sansa staying with Tyrion in the end.  This would be a political partnership, although essentially loveless.  They're both politically inclined, or will be, and it would combine two rival families.

[Aemon Darkbrother]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I have a hard time seeing a romance between them; they're not each other's type.  Jon likes the Arya archetype (Ygritte and Val).  I can see him with someone like Wylla Manderly or Meera Reed.  And I don't see Jon as Sansa's type either.  Plus they still think of themselves as siblings.

I can see Sansa staying with Tyrion in the end.  This would be a political partnership, although essentially loveless.  They're both politically inclined, or will be, and it would combine two rival families.

The war of the roses ended with a son of Lancaster wedded to a daughter of house York so I agree that Tyrion makes a lot of sense. Sansas hope of giving birth to a king as noble as the wolf and as proud as the lion would still apply, assuming westeros adopts an electoral system of choosing kings like in the show. Tyrion may end up as Brans hand for most if not the remainder of his life similarly to Viserys the 2nd, as Tyrion himself spoke of. If Tyrion proves himself an effective hand, maybe its Brans Lannister nephew who's chosen as king after him? 

I don't think it'd be a loveless union ethier just the opposite really. Catalyn idolized Brandon Stark and felt no passion for Eddard only to grow to love him after getting to know him on an emotional level. Swap out Cat, Brandon and Ned for Sansa, Joffrey and Tyrion....I could see it.

18 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I really don't understand how the Ashford Theory stood the test of time. It's just so obviously false! An Arryn is missing! Lysa Arryn wanted Sansa to marry Sweetrobin, the same way the Tyrells wanted her to marry Willas.

" “A child?” said Sansa, uncertainly. Lysa waved a hand negligently. “Not for many years. You are too young to be a mother. One day you shall want children, though. Just as you will want to marry.”

“I … I am married, my lady.” “Yes, but soon a widow. Be glad the Imp preferred his whores. It would not be fitting for my son to take that dwarf’s leavings, but as he never touched you … How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?” " "I see no reason why you should not be wed as soon as we know that your Lannister husband is dead. A secret wedding, to be sure. The Lord of the Eyrie could scarcely be thought to have married a bastard, that would not be fitting. The ravens should bring us the word from King’s Landing once the Imp’s head rolls. You and Robert can be wed the next day, won’t that be joyous?"

"Gratitude will better become you, in your present circumstances. Yes, and obedience. My son will have a grateful and obedient wife.” "

Sansa 7, A Storm of Swords

So either GRRM has forgotten that himself or the Ashford Tourney holds no foreshadowing for Sansa's future at all.

 

 

Remember, Harold would wed Sansa after being named the new lord of house Arryn. In fact it would have been less suspicious if George had written in an Arryn as one of the suitors and yet he chose a Hardyng. Why is that? Maybe because he wanted to clue us in....

Im of the mind that Tyrion is the result of chimera syndrome, making him both Aerys and Tywins son. He's "the half man" son of the lion and of the dragon. The Targ suitor could apply to Tyrion just as much as Faegon.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

assuming westeros adopts an electoral system of choosing kings like in the show. Tyrion may end up as Brans hand for most if not the remainder of his life similarly to Viserys the 2nd, as Tyrion himself spoke of. If Tyrion proves himself an effective hand, maybe its Brans Lannister nephew who's chosen as king after him? 

I don't think it'd be a loveless union ethier just the opposite really. Catalyn idolized Brandon Stark and felt no passion for Eddard only to grow to love him after getting to know him on an emotional level. Swap out Cat, Brandon and Ned for Sansa, Joffrey and Tyrion....I could see it.

Please don't talk about the abomination here. Like with [REDACTED] Lord of [REDACTED] and Master of Coin what kind of value can that shit have?

[Aemon Darkbrother]

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Please don't talk about the abomination here. Like with [REDACTED] Lord of [REDACTED] and Master of Coin what kind of value can that shit have?

lol, if by abomination you mean the show then I feel you. Though there's stuff there to be gleaned I think, like Sansa being queen of the North for instance. Vals not in the show but I'm convinced she's the one Jon going end up with, his wilding queen that is .

[Lollygag]

I think the OP's take is pretty solid.

A lot of posters mix up likelihood for a thing and preference for a thing. GRRM likes to write about relatives hooking up and I don't think we're going to get lucky and get a change of heart from him on this. He clearly enjoys writing it. Based on past behavior predicting future behavior, I think all of the incest ships are possible as GRRM's characters are realistic in that they have multiple associations without the HEA nonsense but it'll mark a dark turn for the characters if it happens. It's not a good thing in GRRM's world. I'll be reading TWOW with a bottle of whiskey or 20 just in case.

That said, I don't think they'll fall in love or anything like that. Jon/Sansa or Jon/Arya would have to come about by force or political necessity like how @SeanF suggested or maybe Stoneheart, Stannis, someone rebuilding the Stark/Tully and now Arryn alliance. Not sure about Dany. If she only gets to Westeros at the end of TWOW or early ADOS, there's a huge time issue there and unlike with Jon/Ygritte, lots of stuff will be competing for page time.

As for foreshadowing, I generally don't agree with that for any of the ships. There was no foreshadowing for Jon/Ygritte, Robb/Jeyne, Dany/Daario, Sansa/Tyrion until after they met and were interacting on page. We were told via LF that GRRM plants seeds. Some don't come up. There's a lot of stuff in the early books that looks like foreshadowing but is clearly not as it's now impossible to come to pass. TONS of events in the books have no foreshadowing or it's so nuanced or complex that it's only there in hindsight.

That said, there's setup for Jonsa. But then again, there's setup for the other match ups, too. There's a reason why readers have no clear consensus idea for where this is all going despite this many people obsessing over every word.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Vals not in the show but I'm convinced she's the one Jon going end up with, his wilding queen that is .

Ironically we had the exact same conversation further up this thread. It's very possible given that they clearly have quite a lot of chemistry, but the political advantages would be limited. Like we would gain some support from the wildlings (not much, plus he already has quite a lot) and losing a little more support from the Northern Lords. My guess is that they will end up together but not married.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Ironically we had the exact same conversation further up this thread. It's very possible given that they clearly have quite a lot of chemistry, but the political advantages would be limited. Like we would gain some support from the wildlings (not much, plus he already has quite a lot) and losing a little more support from the Northern Lords. My guess is that they will end up together but not married.

Want to underscore this. Not sure why readers are so focused on HEAs because if you look at the associations for characters to date, they have a long list so it makes more sense that this will continue.

Example: Arya hasn't even flowered yet, but she's been engaged to that Frey kid, is arguably married by proxy to Ramsey and is the Stark that holds Winterfell, has a thing with Gendry, dudes are hitting on her now, and then there's the TWOW chapter. No bloody idea why readers keep focusing on just one possibility for any character like GRRM is writing HEA bodice-ripper romance novels.

[Aemon Darkbrother]

Im not so sure if Jon will remain a northern lord by the end of the story. Im thinking he's going to make some kind of pack with the Others. Essentially I think they will want him to be their new king. In return they will let him live the rest of his natural life amongst mankind. If Bran ends up sending Jon to the wall and Jon becomes a wildling, he may spend the rest of his life as KBTW, helping to build a true kingdom for the freefolk. 'Other' tinfoil aside, Val and Jon's union may not be so political (Jon's already rejected that) as it would be more of a natural union of simply being in proximity of one another. Plus that whole "they belong together" dialogue in reference to Ghost and Val really strike me as some kind of foreshadowing.

 

My bad if this has already been discussed, too tired to read the whole thread.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Im not so sure if Jon will remain a northern lord by the end of the story. Im thinking he's going to make some kind of pack with the Others. Essentially I think they will want him to be their new king. In return they will let him live the rest of his natural life amongst mankind. If Bran ends up sending Jon to the wall and Jon becomes a wildling, he may spend the rest of his life as KBTW, helping to build a true kingdom for the freefolk. 'Other' tinfoil aside, Val and Jon's union may not be so political (Jon's already rejected that) as it would be more of a natural union of simply being in proximity of one another. 

Plus that whole "they belong together" dialogue in reference to Ghost and Val really strike me as some kind of foreshadowing. 

A lot of characters thought they belonged together and it didn't turn out well. And GRRM isn't showing his hand that easily. Not saying Jon/Val won't happen (wouldn't be surprised at all if it did somehow), just that this isn't evidence.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 31. März 2020 at 11:52 PM, Dot Com said:

Ok, so since it's been established that most people do not believe that Sansa will end up with Jon, who/what do you see as more likely for her? Personally I don't think Sansa will end up with anyone, but will have a brief political marriage with fAegon (before he gets roasted by Dany). 

I think she'll marry the Hound in the end. Not because he is such a great guy, I'm very hung up on him threatening to kill her, but because, I think, it's in the text. But I welcome different interpretations! 

-brave, gentle, strong- there is no one else braver (more reckless) or (physically)stronger (except Gregor) and GRRM makes sure to draw attention to how surprising it is, that he can be gentle. It's from Sansa's POV. So it's her, like @violentdelights mentioned before, that is noticing it.

"He pushed her toward her wardrobe, almost gently."

"With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip."

A Game of Thrones, Sansa 5

"The Hound gave her a push, oddly gentle,"

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 2

"The Hound pulled her to her feet, not ungently."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 3

he doesn't just say he's gentle, but it's always oddly, almost, not ungently, with a with a delicacy surprising, as if to point out to the reader how unexpected it is.

“To thank you, for … for saving me … you were so brave.”

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 3

"The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside … she could scarcely imagine it."

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 1

"He was too strong to fight."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 7

"Ser Osmund had taken Sandor Clegane’s place by Joffrey’s side, and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster. If that was so, she wondered why she had never once heard of these Kettleblacks before Ser Osmund was named to the Kingsguard."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 6

"Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders,"

A Game of Thrones, Sansa 1

"When his hand fell away, another hand, stronger, shoved her back into her saddle."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 6

 

-There is the cloak, that Sansa accepts and puts around herself twice in comparison to LF's cloak and Tyrion's cloak, who both put their cloaks around her themselves without her permission or explicitly against her will.

"Sandor Clegane unfastened his cloak and tossed it at her. Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 3 

"Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 7

She also puts it into her chedar chest, which was used in the past by young women in preparation for marriage. GRRM is aware of that, since he has used one in a short story before as @violentdelights quotes in #154

She also put it under her summer silks as if to say, when summer comes.... or for the summer of my life

"She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it."

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 1

"As he moved behind her, Sansa felt a sharp tug on her skirt. He wants me to kneel, she realized, blushing. She was mortified. It was not supposed to be this way. She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp. She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won’t. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine? The dwarf tugged at her a third time. Stubbornly, she pressed her lips together and pretended not to notice. Someone behind them tittered. The queen, she thought, but it didn’t matter. They were all laughing by then, Joffrey the loudest. “Dontos, down on your hands and knees,” the king commanded. “My uncle needs a boost to climb his bride.” And so it was that her lord husband cloaked her in the colors of House Lannister whilst standing on the back of a fool."

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 3

" “She’s cold,” she heard someone say. He took off his cloak and put it around her shoulders. “There, is that better, my lady? Rest easy, the worst is past and done.” She knew the voice. But he’s in the Vale, she thought."

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 5

 

- then he is the winner of her father's tourney, it's called tourney of "the hand". And tourneys have of course the reputation to win the favor of a maiden (Lyanna) or even winning someone's hand in marriage (Lynesse). Sansa gets a red rose and LF dubs her the queen of (love and) beauty) right after (of course, that would have been actually the winner's privilege) “Your mother was my queen of beauty once,”. The Hound's last opponent would have been Loras, Sansa's biggest, most serious crush, and her idealized version of a man, but they don't even fight, since Loras was never a really "competition" for Sandor anyway, he gives up the victory to him. LF bets against Sandor and loses. But most importanly Sansa roots for Sandor ("Wood shattered, and the Hound reeled, fighting to keep his seat. Sansa gasped. A ragged cheer went up from the commons."-Sansa is gasping, while the rest of the crowd is cheering) to the point, where she wants him (" “Is the Hound the champion now?” Sansa asked Ned.") to be and apparently already "knows" (“I knew the Hound would win.”), that he is the winner ("But Sansa had the right of it after all. A few moments later, Ser Loras Tyrell walked back onto the field in a simple linen doublet and said to Sandor Clegane, “I owe you my life. The day is yours, ser.” ")

Narrative wise it doesn't make that much sense. Why doesn't she root for her biggest crush “Oh, he’s so beautiful.”, he is in the finals as well, in the end it's only him and the Hound left, wouldn't she want him to win, he had just given her a rose? and Sandor just threatened to kill her the night before.

 

-She wonders, what has become of Sandor at the evening of Lysa and LF's wedding.

"She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane. Did he know that they’d killed Joffrey? Would he care? He had been the prince’s sworn shield for years."

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 

 

-"And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said."

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 

Whether you see that as a fantasy or a nightmare, it's again an association with marriage.

 

-"You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?” She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod."

A Feast for Crows, Alayne

marriage again.

 

-the constant association between the Hound and Lady (I'll give quotes, if someone wants me to)

“Wolves and women wed for life,” Haggon often said. “You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.”

Dance With Dragons, Prologue

 

-subtle comparison/association with other men:

"Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her," (Ned)

A Game of Thrones, Sansa 1

" “Do I frighten you so much?” He did, and had since she had first laid eyes on the ruin that fire had made of his face, though it seemed to her now that he was not half so terrifying as the other." (Ilyn Payne)

A Game of Thrones, Sansa 1

"She was afraid of Sandor Clegane … and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound’s ferocity." (Dontos)

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 4

"Ser Osmund had taken Sandor Clegane’s place by Joffrey’s side, and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster. If that was so, she wondered why she had never once heard of these Kettleblacks before Ser Osmund was named to the Kingsguard." (Osmund Kettleblack)

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 6 

"When the appointed night arrived, another of the Kingsguard came for her, a man as different from Sandor Clegane as … well, as a flower from a dog." (Loras)

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 1

"He is so ugly, Sansa thought when his face was close to hers. He is even uglier than the Hound." (Tyrion)

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 3

"When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger." (LF)

A Feast for Crows, Alayne 1

"The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound." (Bronze Yohn)

A Feast for Crows, Alayne 1

 

Edit: He also named them Sansa and Sandor- for two characters he has interact so much I don't think, that's a coincidence.

 

They'll continue on the Stark line and Sansa will be Lady of WF- not 100% sure though, I'd rather have Rickon doing it, if it means he has to die otherwise, but I think Sansa is more likely.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

lol, if by abomination you mean the show then I feel you. Though there's stuff there to be gleaned I think, like Sansa being queen of the North for instance. Vals not in the show but I'm convinced she's the one Jon going end up with, his wilding queen that is .

There is no show talk n the book forum. 

 

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

They'll continue on the Stark line and Sansa will be Lady of WF- not 100% sure though, I'd rather have Rickon doing it, if it means he has to die otherwise, but I think Sansa is more likely. 

I think it's also very interestingt that Sandor has typical Stark features with grey eyes and dark hair and was mistaken for Arya's father when they were traveling together.

I think George has laid the groundwork for SanSan but it remains to be seen whether or not he will go through with it especially with the elimination of the 5 year gap.

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville Sandor Clegane doesn't fit the brave, gentle, strong criteria, because you are missing a big point of the quote. Ned specifically says: A high lord who is worthy of you, someone brave, gentle and strong. Sandor Clegane isn't a high lord. Even if he became the Lord of house Clegane he would be a minor one. Whoever Sansa will marry will most likely be part of the major houses. 

[Nagini's Neville]

28 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

remains to be seen whether or not he will go through with it especially with the elimination of the 5 year gap.

True, it's just a theory of course. Maybe all of the symbolism means something else entirely and that would be very interesting then as well!

When it comes to the age I think GRRM is much more radical, than most of us readers (would like him to be). He has continuously said there is no adolescence in universe. She'll be 16 by the end and that's around the time most girls marry in universe. I also thought, maybe he'd abandon the idea without the time jump, but then he kept her thinking about the Unkiss and kept up the comparing in Feast. There also doesn't have to be a love story in the books, GRRM could just let them get married in the epilogue or something like that.

He already went pretty far, when Sansa was just 12, so if that was his plan from the beginning I don't see why he would abandon it, because of the lose of the 5 year jump, I think there are ways around that.

However he did start the series in the 90s and there have been a lot of cultural changes in the mean time and people have become much more aware of certain issues, so I could see him abandoning it, because maybe he came to the conclusion, that letting a girl marry a man, who held a knife at her throat wasn't the best idea. 

[Nagini's Neville]

45 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville Sandor Clegane doesn't fit the brave, gentle, strong criteria, because you are missing a big point of the quote. Ned specifically says: A high lord who is worthy of you, someone brave, gentle and strong. Sandor Clegane isn't a high lord. Even if he became the Lord of house Clegane he would be a minor one. Whoever Sansa will marry will most likely be part of the major houses. 

I don't think it's unlikely Sandor will become a high lord. He'd obviously have to change a lot and a lot still has to happen, if there could be any chance for this theory to come to true. The long night is upon them and what happens after war, as we see in the case of Davos and LF? 

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville Maybe you do have a point but still I don't see it happening. For all it's so called romantic implications there is a lot of negativity surrounding the dynamic of Sansa and Sandor. His verbal abuse, the sexual harassment in her fourth chapter in ACOK, and most importantly the black water incident. Sansa is clearly traumatized by it and even though she doesn't tackle it full on she associates it with her wedding night during a nightmare (yet another traumatizing experience for her). Even in AFFC when she thinks about the Unkiss it only happens after Sweetrobin kisses Sansa without her consent. Plus we shouldn't forget that Sansa has also not addressed Sandor's involvement in the Trident incident (another memory Sansa has been suppressing). By no means am I discrediting the possibility of this, because at some point I did believe Sansan would happen, but something feels off about all of this. I mean there must be a reason why George spoke somewhat negative about this dynamic. Perhaps he never considered a romance between these two. 

[Nagini's Neville]

7 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Remember, Harold would wed Sansa after being named the new lord of house Arryn. In fact it would have been less suspicious if George had written in an Arryn as one of the suitors and yet he chose a Hardyng. Why is that? Maybe because he wanted to clue us in....

I don't see how that should clue us in. Fact is that both SR and Harry are her suitors, so either we'd need two Arryns and get rid of the Hardyng or one additional Arryn. Joffis no Baratheon either. SR is not included therefore it makes the Ashford tourney not relevant for Sansa's future.

[Angel Eyes]

16 hours ago, Dot Com said:

Ok, so since it's been established that most people do not believe that Sansa will end up with Jon, who/what do you see as more likely for her? Personally I don't think Sansa will end up with anyone, but will have a brief political marriage with fAegon (before he gets roasted by Dany). 

I wouldn't be too fussed with characters like Podrick, maybe Edric Dayne (the latter might get points from Arya).

[Springwatch]

10 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wouldn't be too fussed with characters like Podrick, maybe Edric Dayne (the latter might get points from Arya).

Edric, fAegon and Ned are not sufficiently developed as characters to marry a primary character like Sansa. Compare with Gendry, who does have a character, and does make a genuine connection with Arya. The others - they're like a cipher for the brave, noble boy; not 3-dimensional at all. I don't think they have time to develop into much.

Even Pod. Nice boy, incredible fighter - but not much visible personality yet. Also he is a mini-me for Ilyn Payne, who in turn is a look-alike for Death. Not a great omen

[Angel Eyes]

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Edric, fAegon and Ned are not sufficiently developed as characters to marry a primary character like Sansa. Compare with Gendry, who does have a character, and does make a genuine connection with Arya. The others - they're like a cipher for the brave, noble boy; not 3-dimensional at all. I don't think they have time to develop into much.

Even Pod. Nice boy, incredible fighter - but not much visible personality yet. Also he is a mini-me for Ilyn Payne, who in turn is a look-alike for Death. Not a great omen

Well that's the thing isn't it? There's nobody right now who would be right for Sansa that isn't related to her.