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How likely is a Jon/Sansa match (aka Jonsa)?


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On 4/1/2020 at 6:55 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Well, nobody in the main characters' group.

I see just one thing to be said in favour of Ned Dayne - the name linking to Eddard, Sansa's father. She might like that.

But besides that, it's a strange thing, but Sansa's father is the common factor shared by her principal three (um) 'admirers'.

  • Sansa mistakes Sandor's touch for her father's at the Trident.
  • Joffrey identifies as Sansa's father at her wedding.
  • Littlefinger identifies as Sansa's father in the Vale.

If patterns are important :dunno:, maybe Ned D. would like her, very much.

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On 4/1/2020 at 2:22 PM, Elegant Woes said:

Plus we shouldn't forget that Sansa has also not addressed Sandor's involvement in the Trident incident (another memory Sansa has been suppressing).

Not to mention being to the front of the Tower of the Hand incident, and Cersei's coup generally. And declaring himself a butcher of weak humanity, and a heretic. It couldn't get much worse.

Trauma would be natural, but I honestly think both Stark girls have a resilience that's more super-heroic than natural. Both of them get scared at times by the Hound, but once the fear goes away, what remains is a belief that Sandor is not going to hurt them.

Sansa's efforts to get Joffrey to do the right thing (with a few successes even), and her empathy and prayers for Sandor are all absolutely astonishing, in world and out. She's weak, but she's far from average - a very gentle kind of superhero. (And flawed, but most superheroes are...)

On 4/1/2020 at 2:22 PM, Elegant Woes said:

Perhaps he never considered a romance between these two. 

Probably he never considered a happy-ever-after between these two, but he certainly added in some romantic touches. And the Unkiss has to be justified somehow.

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26 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She's weak

There's nothing weak about Sansa. Most adults could not have endured, what she had to go through without going crazy, cold, cruel or vengeful. The problem lays with society's definition of strength and weakness and the fact that most people underestimate the power and impact, that simple genuine kindness and empathy can have on others (especially if it's towards the right kind of people) 

I'd call her strong and resilient. She never had a friend since her father was killed, not even her wolf, no one she can trust. None of her siblings has to go through all of it all alone. They all meet friends and mentors along the way, that help them or at least don't want to harm them and they all still have their wolves and can draw strength from that bond. Enduring can be much harder, than being able to be proactive.

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On 1. April 2020 at 3:22 PM, Elegant Woes said:

For all it's so called romantic implications there is a lot of negativity surrounding the dynamic of Sansa and Sandor.

Yeah, I think that's part of their dynamic. And I don't think we are supposed to overlook that. It was obviously not written to be healthy or unproblematic at this point. And I guess, that was the reason, why GRRM was surprised, that a lot of readers want this to become romantic in the future. He said, there is something there and it was interesting to see how many ppl have responded it. And that he didn't anticipate it. For me that's not exactly a negative reaction. I feel like GRRM seldom has a negative response to readers reactions, the only one I can think of is the one about Cat.

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Sansa is clearly traumatized by it and even though she doesn't tackle it full on she associates it with her wedding night during a nightmare (yet another traumatizing experience for her).

 

I agree that she should be traumatized by it. I'm just not exactly sure, if GRRM writes her as being traumatized by Sandor's actions though. He did quite a good job showing Sandor's PTSD, being triggered by fire, while he lets her carrying his cloak around. He also didn't give Dany any trauma symptoms from her time with Drogo, which is just highly unrealistic.

I'm not saying you are wrong. You definitely have points! It is just a theory based on the stuff that's in the text. I feel like, when you have reread Sansa's chapters a lot, you just can't help but notice it and what I've quoted is only the stuff, that is in some way associated with marriage. The Hound gets consistently more space, symbolism and random thoughts, than any other character she is involved with, despite not really having an important role in the overall story yet.

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Even in AFFC when she thinks about the Unkiss it only happens after Sweetrobin kisses Sansa without her consent.

Idk SR is only a little boy after all. This is just the harmless kiss of a child IMO. I think it's more telling, that she doesn't think about it, all the times LF is kissed her.

GRRM's characters and world are not black and white. The question is, if there will be some moral judgment/punishment for those characters, who have done wrong like Tyrion, Sandor, Jaime and Theon and how will it manifest itself? Will certain acts, they have committed, exclude them forever from experiencing certain fulfillments?

Basically do all the acts, that Sandor has committed (towards Sansa or all of his other evil deeds) make it impossible for him to ever have a romantic future with her? 

Maybe the answer should be yes, the question is however, if GRRM shares that view. I guess it remains to be seen. However themes of redemption and forgiveness seem to be important to him.

 

"I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what’s the answer then?"

GRRM, Rolling Stone

 

 

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@Nagini's Neville I am by no means condemning little Robert. He definitely meant no harm. It's just Sansa response to it came across as her getting triggered for me. As for Sandor's ending? Who knows. There are so many possibilities. The line: 

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A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. 

Could perhaps be a hint towards a possible death for him. Maybe he will lay down his life for Sansa in order to atone for his behavior. I know that some people hate the idea of that, but like you said, who knows whether George thinks he is worthy of redemption. :dunno:

ETA: And no, Sansa is most definitely was traumatized by Sandor's assault. The description of Sansa feeling cold is very similar to an occurrence related to trauma.

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Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor’s Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully. Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she’d built a fire. She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother’s queen. - Sansa IV, AGOT

“Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is.” He drew his longsword. “Here’s your truth. Your precious father found that out on Baelor’s steps. Lord of Winterfell, Hand of the King, Warden of the North, the mighty Eddard Stark, of a line eight thousand years old . . . but Ilyn Payne’s blade went through his neck all the same, didn’t it? Do you remember the dance he did when his head came off his shoulders?” Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold. “Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you …” - Sansa IV, ACOK

Two sailors were waiting by the rail to help her onto the deck. Sansa was trembling. “She’s cold,” she heard someone say. He took off his cloak and put it around her shoulders. “There, is that better, my lady? Rest easy, the worst is past and done." She knew the voice. But he’s in the Vale, she thought. Ser Lothor Brune stood beside him with a torch.”Lord Petyr,“ Dontos called from the boat - Sansa V, ASOS

If the Blackwater event didn't traumatize her Sansa wouldn't have rewritten that memory in the first place. By that logic she shouldn't have technically been traumatized by the Trident Incident either and we all know she was.

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On 4/1/2020 at 3:03 AM, Lollygag said:

A lot of characters thought they belonged together and it didn't turn out well. And GRRM isn't showing his hand that easily. Not saying Jon/Val won't happen (wouldn't be surprised at all if it did somehow), just that this isn't evidence.

This is true. If I can interject a few examples of the Jon+Val pairing GRRM uses in his other stories (Fevre Dream, The Skin Trade, Nightflyers, And Seven Times Never Kill Man, plus a few tidbit others) GRRM has to have these two archetypes meet and flirt heavily (no sexual action yet), then they part- the 'Jon' has to have his own awakening/journey, and only after this journey (both have one with a common cause, just separately), they rejoin for the finale or just shortly thereafter. I am anticipating this will happen to Jon and Val as well after he wakes from his wolf-coma dream state. I do believe that Val, along with Morna, Tormund, and Borroq, will play a part in his healing-remanning of himself, and it is then that Jon takes off to meet Stannis, the false skinchanger Ramsay, and the other issues south. Plus, GRRM heavily implied there is more to Jon and Val in the upcoming books, no details, but he said he wasn't done with them :dunno:

 

 

In general as I think on it:

Daenerys isn't planned to invade Westeros until the end of TWOW and I don't see she and Jon meeting right away. Dany is going to meet with those in the south/Kings Landing area first, people like Euron and Aegon 6, and maybe Cersei, etc. Chances are that Jon and Dany won't meet until the very last in TWOW, or maybe not even until ADOS? IF they have a fling, it will be about as romantic as Stannis and his fiery woman Melisandre... which is to say it won't be and there will be a good bit of compulsion going on (as what happens to those who stand to close to a pyramid god). GRRM once said that he didn't hang a giant wolfpack on the wall and not plan to use them, and it could be that same for both the centuries of Targ incest opposed against the northern/free folk way of "gatherings" (orgies) and not marrying kin to kin (no, the Starks never practiced incest and the history of the past Sansa and her sister was a power grab attempt, an example of what not to do, nothing more).

Which brings it back to this current Sansa. The purpose of marriage in Westeros among the lords was to increase and expand the family and holdings (the green way) and not to keep it all to oneself in a greedy way (fire is a hungry god, always consuming to feed itself). Sansa and Jon are clan kin whether brother and sister or cousins. Even Rickard and Lyarra were second cousins (once removed) with other bloodlines mixed in there. I guess that is the closest it comes in the north, but still a huge difference than the crazy incest that the Targs practice, that "mad" Lysa encourages, and even the grasping Arianne who thinks she deserves to be queeen. So in actuality, the incest angle is not reserved for the Valyrians and Targaryens specifically, but anyone who is represented as a fiery "mad" element. I do not see either Jon or Sansa claiming they deserve to be king or queen over Westeros or Winterfell. So again, on that narrative level, the two being romantically linked as opposed to rebuilding after the long night-linked just doesn't seem to fit.

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22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

There's nothing weak about Sansa. Most adults could not have endured, what she had to go through without going crazy, cold, cruel or vengeful. The problem lays with society's definition of strength and weakness and the fact that most people underestimate the power and impact, that simple genuine kindness and empathy can have on others (especially if it's towards the right kind of people)

Well said, I agree.

What I was thinking is this: Inner strength, yes. Considering Joff could have her killed at any time, and the Hound threatens the same, I find it awesome when she sets her will against theirs and offers a kind of moral leadership. To them, to Lannister beasts. It's impressive, it's brave, it's insanely optimistic.

Externally, she is certainly weak - no power, no friends, naive to the game of thrones, little choice in her fate. LF describes her as a pawn, and mostly she is.

Also, it's not just that she can't force people to do her will, she doesn't want to - she still thinks it's better to be loved than feared, which makes her weak according to Cersei's crazy rules, and probably she will follow Cat's lead in being repelled by warfare. That makes her weak according to the Hound's crazy rules.

Last thing: I've a feeling that soft power is about to be recognised. As winter arrives, more rulers are falling into the 'weak' category - women, children, old men. It could be the trend, the rise of the weak (sharp steel and strong arms are not much use against the cold anyway). And of course there's Bran, who appears the weakest but most likely is the strongest.

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4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Also, it's not just that she can't force people to do her will, she doesn't want to - she still thinks it's better to be loved than feared, which makes her weak according to Cersei's crazy rules, and probably she will follow Cat's lead in being repelled by warfare. That makes her weak according to the Hound's crazy rules.

Sure that's because those two feel constantly afraid themselves and in the end don't really understand the nature of sustainable "power" If you don't inspire love and loyalty in the ppl around you, you're nothing sooner than later.

We can already see Cersei ruining it herself with her cruelty, non-existent care for anyone, but herself and her children and the Hound broke done more and more until it was time for him to die. 

But Sansa endures, grows up, waits and learns and when the time comes, she'll be quite "powerful", because she won't overestimate herself, will be underestimated by everyone else, will have learned enough from LF and Cersei and her experiences (also she is one of the heirs to WF- she doesn't have to be an over the top mastermind to be powerful) and will understand and know how to inspire love and loyalty, she also won't want power for power's sake, that will help as well :) 

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On 3/31/2020 at 5:25 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Not so sure if I think Tanselle and Rohanne.

What do we know about Tanselle, really? She was a pretty Dornish woman who was good at painting and was polite to Dunk. That's about it. 

Rohanne was a headstrong ginger who practiced archery but was otherwise a traditional lady. 

I don't think Dunk would turn up his nose at Sansa.

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  • 3 weeks later...
31 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There is a crack ship thread for this kind of thing.

Jon finds Satin pretty, made him his squire, and defends his honor constantly. That's enough material for a canon ship - or at least to entertain the idea. Plus the Night's Watch is like, the gayest place ever.

I reserve "crackship" for truly off the wall stuff: characters who will never interact, characters with uncomfortable age gaps, and absurd pairings just for the lolz.

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon finds Satin pretty, made him his squire, and defends his honor constantly. That's enough material for a canon ship - or at least to entertain the idea. Plus the Night's Watch is like, the gayest place ever.

I reserve "crackship" for truly off the wall stuff: characters who will never interact, characters with uncomfortable age gaps, and absurd pairings just for the lolz.

To be fair I think there is more to base a Satin/Jon relationship on than a Sansa/Jon relationship. I think both are pretty flimsy & highly unlikely though. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

To be fair I think there is more to base a Satin/Jon relationship on than a Sansa/Jon relationship.

Also to be fair however, given that there is no hint of it being otherwise, Jon seems to be 100% straight. So it's more likely for him to be attracted by Sansa then Satin, especially given that they seem to have had their childhoods completely apart so there isn't that thing that usually psychologically prevents incest. So while both are bonkers at least Jonsa is at least possible in terms of attraction (Yes I do realize how irky this sounds, but still)

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5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also to be fair however, given that there is no hint of it being otherwise, Jon seems to be 100% straight. So it's more likely for him to be attracted by Sansa then Satin, especially given that they seem to have had their childhoods completely apart so there isn't that thing that usually psychologically prevents incest. So while both are bonkers at least Jonsa is at least possible in terms of attraction (Yes I do realize how irky this sounds, but still)

Yeah, I mean he does seem 100% straight & Sansa being a girl is definitely a point in her favor. 

They haven't had their childhoods completely apart though. Sansa was what? 11? 12? & Jon 14? 15? When they separated. There is quite the foundation built in that amount of time. 

I honestly just don't buy into either of them lol 

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