How would Northman pay tax during Winter?

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

How would Northman pay tax during winter?

So I’m unaware if it’s ever explained or if there are any real word comparisons but how would Northmen in particular pay tax during Winter. Considering it’s a medieval society so the vast majority of the population will be farmers, this means that they won’t be farming during winter and thus bringing in money to pay tax but winter can last years and years without tax revenue could hurt The North sorely. Not only that but if they did go out and collect tax from the people, how would they do it considering how brutal winter can be and how vast The North is?

[mormont]

The real question is surely how tax could be collected during winter?

Northmen are still subsisting during winter, so they have some ability to harvest and forage, and even to farm some food, I'd imagine - just not the acres of wheat that you might traditionally think of as 'farming'. And tax can be applied to stored goods as well. The issue is that collecting that tax is going to be tricky. Your tax collectors aren't going to be able to travel easily.

I'd imagine that the taxation model in the North is adapted to the conditions, though. Heavy taxes during summer, light or no tax during winter. The lords can store too.

[Loose Bolt]

I assume that depends on will of ruling lord. Or greedy lord would try to collect as much revenue as he can without caring long term consequences. 

[The hairy bear]

Many medieval taxes were defined as a percentage of the output (decima pars / one tenth). So I'd assume that when there's no harvest, there's no taxes.

Which is something that the politicians facing the current crisis should understand, but I'm digressing now...

[Rufus Snow]

8 hours ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes said:

How would Northman pay tax during winter?

Wrong question: try "WHY would Northmen pay tax in the Winter?" Because:

6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Many medieval taxes were defined as a percentage of the output (decima pars / one tenth). So I'd assume that when there's no harvest, there's no taxes.

... not to mention: 'Molon labe' 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

13 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Many medieval taxes were defined as a percentage of the output (decima pars / one tenth). So I'd assume that when there's no harvest, there's no taxes.

Which is something that the politicians facing the current crisis should understand, but I'm digressing now...

Considering that the north will be a land of the dead, no.  Taxes will be the least of anyone's concerns.  Everybody on the path of the Others will be dead and turned to ice zombies.  Including Jon Snow, who might become the new Night's King.  The direwolves will survive for a while, gnawing on wights and whatever carcass they can find.  So no taxes, no government. Just primitive times all over again. Westeros goes back to zero human population.

[The Young Maester]

Since no crops can yield during winter. I imagine the peasants would keep livestocks around. Cows and goats can provide milk, chickens can produce eggs, and sheep provide wool. The livestock would also reproduce which would help throughout the winter. Basically the lords of the north would receive tax payment through livestock instead of crops and money. I do believe woodsman and smiths, and tanners (especially in the north where you have lots of wild animals) can still work, however they are likely to gain less money during winter. 

Lords also make money through trade. No doubt furs and timber are the most exported goods in white harbour. So many lords like Glover, tallhart, umber, stark etc. Would send their timber and furs down to white harbour to be bought by foreign merchants. I would imagine that the demand for fur would drastically go up during winter. So the north is likely to make a bit of money from that.

But we dont know if trade alone covers the loss of tax income. But it no doubt helps keep the lords afloat. 

[Lord Varys]

The more interesting question is how Northmen survive in winter.

As we see in FaB food is a commodity that is bought and sold - meaning scarcity increases the price, which means the average Northman should starve to death in the second year of winter, not live through five years of winter.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The more interesting question is how Northmen survive in winter.

As we see in FaB food is a commodity that is bought and sold - meaning scarcity increases the price, which means the average Northman should starve to death in the second year of winter, not live through five years of winter.

I think that the North is a much more tight-knit society than Westeros south of the Neck.

Remember when Edmure did "the unthinkable" by taking all of Riverrun's smallfolk and their livestock under his roof. I think that is common in the North in winter. We already know that the Wintertown practically becomes a small city in winter and Wintertown sits in the shadow of Winterfell.

I think the northern lords have a better relationship to their smallfolk. Explains why the Starks are so beloved there. The Starks likely take very good care of their smallfolk; the Starks probably don't make their subjects pay high taxes all-year-around (or even at all) and they probably end up providing some form of disaster relief to their people.

[The Young Maester]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The more interesting question is how Northmen survive in winter.

As we see in FaB food is a commodity that is bought and sold - meaning scarcity increases the price, which means the average Northman should starve to death in the second year of winter, not live through five years of winter.

I dont think Martin was that invested on the scientific and economical side of his world building. These long winters almost make it impossible to understand how these people survive. I still dont understand how people in the south survive these long winters.

[Lollygag]

Add this to the ever-growing list of things I'm glad GRRM doesn't bore me with.

[Tyrion1991]

On 3/31/2020 at 7:32 AM, Brandon Ice-Eyes said:

How would Northman pay tax during winter?

So I’m unaware if it’s ever explained or if there are any real word comparisons but how would Northmen in particular pay tax during Winter. Considering it’s a medieval society so the vast majority of the population will be farmers, this means that they won’t be farming during winter and thus bringing in money to pay tax but winter can last years and years without tax revenue could hurt The North sorely. Not only that but if they did go out and collect tax from the people, how would they do it considering how brutal winter can be and how vast The North is?

 

Its High Fantasy and the North is the most unrealistic region in the books.

The North shouldn’t have anything beyond nomadic pastoralists or even hunter gatherers  and they should be migrating south whenever winter hits. At best. Winter in Russia is bad enough when it lasts for a few months, never mind whole years.

Its not realistic that a feudal kingdom could survive in a climate that has to endure a several year long winter that’s comparable to Siberia. Plus, even in summer that should create things like permafrost and make human habitation/growing crops difficult. Just bunkering thousands of people up in your castle isn’t a believable option.

The North would be able to collect taxes and continue to function because it has plot armour. George wants them to be a cool frontier people who can endure winter whilst also being a military powerhouse; because reasons.

 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think that the North is a much more tight-knit society than Westeros south of the Neck.

Remember when Edmure did "the unthinkable" by taking all of Riverrun's smallfolk and their livestock under his roof. I think that is common in the North in winter. We already know that the Wintertown practically becomes a small city in winter and Wintertown sits in the shadow of Winterfell.

I think the northern lords have a better relationship to their smallfolk. Explains why the Starks are so beloved there. The Starks likely take very good care of their smallfolk; the Starks probably don't make their subjects pay high taxes all-year-around (or even at all) and they probably end up providing some form of disaster relief to their people.

There is no indication of any of that. Sure, the Starks let people live in the Winter Town, but they cannot feed all the North, can they? And the common practice in the North is that the old and infirm go out and die in winter - that means the community demand that members sacrifice themselves for the group. That's the opposite of people caring for each other.

We hear about food riots at Barrowton in FaB where starving people attacked the town.

We also learn that it is up to an individual lord how much food is stored for winter - Lord Alaric suggested that they store more than they actually did, meaning that they are not beholden to his suggestions.

I expected that George would have a system in place where food isn't bought and sold in a time of need, but rationed and given out by the lords to the people who need it. But the way it is we can say that in a severe winter most of the smallfolk must starve to death - entire villages and settlements where people are living who simply cannot afford to pay the high food prices. And that should start in the second year of winter.

4 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I dont think Martin was that invested on the scientific and economical side of his world building. These long winters almost make it impossible to understand how these people survive. I still dont understand how people in the south survive these long winters.

Oh, that is more easy to understand in light of the fact that winter isn't that big a deal south of the Neck. There is some snow, but not continuously, and parts of the Reach, the Stormlands, and all Dorne shouldn't see any snow at all (George confirmed it that it snows 'almost never' in Dorne and Oldtown). That way food down there can likely still be harvested in mild winters.

[The Mountain that Cries]

On 3/31/2020 at 3:57 AM, The hairy bear said:

Many medieval taxes were defined as a percentage of the output (decima pars / one tenth). So I'd assume that when there's no harvest, there's no taxes.

Which is something that the politicians facing the current crisis should understand, but I'm digressing now...

THIS