Weirdest crack ship in the fandom?

[Nagini's Neville]

On 31. März 2020 at 7:13 PM, frenin said:

Sansa and whatever character, people hate Sansa, they don't want her to be happy, that's why the root for the weirder and grosser.

I love Sansa, want her to be happy badly! but I also think automatically more about ppl like Tyrion and the Hound, than about boys, that would be actually good and right for her like maybe Pod (Pansa), Ned Dayne or Edric Storm. I think she gets paired up so much in the first place, because there is a prominent the marriage theme in her arc and she gets used so much through that, but deep down still seems to long for romantic love, that you just expect her to take control of it at one point herself. But all the types of characters GRRM lets her interact with are messed up. She never gets a "Gendry"- even though I know you dislike Gendry anyway lol 

But you know a normal guy her age without issues, that isn't connected to the downfall of her family's house. And there are actually a lot of hints about Sandor and Sansa. And Tyrion, I guess, because they are married already and because of the War of the Roses. 

Jon and Sansa I don't get, the same with LF and Sansa- he seems be too much of an obvious villain - so that would be really tragic.

Not justifying anything here, just saying it also comes from the text, not only from ppl's imagination and wanting to pair Sansa up with horrible ppl, because they dislike her. 

[Elegant Woes]

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And Tyrion, I guess, because they are married already and because of the War of the Roses. 

I am curious what does Tyrion have to do with the War of the Roses?

[Rose of Red Lake]

There are fics on A03 where Dany rapes various characters. Jonsa looks like Jim and Pam by comparison.  

But who cares how the fans play with their Barbies. GRRM is writing one long fic himself. 

[Nevets]

8 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

I am curious what does Tyrion have to do with the War of the Roses?

The Wars of the Roses ended with the marriage of leaders of the two main factions: Henry Tudor (of the Lancasters) and Elizabeth of York, thereby unifying the country.  Henry then became King Henry VII.

I've often seen Sansa mentioned as a possible Elizabeth of York figure.  And while Aegon works better as Henry VII, Tyrion can work as well.  Plus, one of Henry's enemies once referred to him as an " imp".

I don't see Tyrion on the Throne, but I can imagine them marrying, or simply staying married.

[Elegant Woes]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

The Wars of the Roses ended with the marriage of leaders of the two main factions: Henry Tudor (of the Lancasters) and Elizabeth of York, thereby unifying the country.  Henry then became King Henry VII.

I've often seen Sansa mentioned as a possible Elizabeth of York figure.  And while Aegon works better as Henry VII, Tyrion can work as well.  Plus, one of Henry's enemies once referred to him as an " imp".

I don't see Tyrion on the Throne, but I can imagine them marrying, or simply staying married.

I get it. Thank you for explaining. I agree with you, Tyrion doesn't resemble Henry VII. Their resemblance begins and ends at them being "Lancasters". If anything Tyrion is more like Richard III or at least Shakespeare's take on him. While Sansa is an obvious Elizabeth of York figure she has parallels with Anne Neville as well and we all know she was married to Richard III. So Sansa/Tyrion is more like Richard III/Anne Neville (if only because of Sansa and Tyrion's resemblance to Anne and Richard respectively and not the dynamic between them. From what I remember Richard and Anne had a happy marriage. Tyrion and Sansa did not)

The more obvious Henry VII figures than Aegon are Jon and Daenerys. An exiled royal returning to take back what is theirs? That is Dany. A bastard raised by his uncle? That's Jon. Furthermore, Henry's nickname was the Winter King. That pushes him more in Jon's direction. And if that doesn't make it obvious who "Henry VII" is in ASOIAF take a look at his coat of arms. A red dragon and a white dog/(wolf?). The only character in ASOIAF who can take that coat of arms for himself is Jon. If we look at the evidence I would say that more than anything the War of the Roses hints at Jon and Sansa marrying. 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

I get it. Thank you for explaining. I agree with you, Tyrion doesn't resemble Henry VII. Their resemblance begins and ends at them being "Lancasters". If anything Tyrion is more like Richard III or at least Shakespeare's take on him. While Sansa is an obvious Elizabeth of York figure she has parallels with Anne Neville as well and we all know she was married to Richard III. So Sansa/Tyrion is more like Richard III/Anne Neville (if only because of Sansa and Tyrion's resemblance to Anne and Richard respectively and not the dynamic between them. From what I remember Richard and Anne had a happy marriage. Tyrion and Sansa did not)

Didnt Richard leave Anne for Elizabeths daughter? But for the most part I agree. Kingmakers daughter, largely inspiration for Sansa. 

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Plus, one of Henry's enemies once referred to him as an " imp".

Never heard that before. Very interesting

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But who cares how the fans play with their Barbies. 

Lmaooo

[Alyn Oakenfist]

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Didnt Richard leave Anne for Elizabeths daughter?

Actually Anne died of tuberculosis. Richard was supposed to marry Elizabeth's eldest daughter, also named Elizabeth, in order to tie his claim to Edward's (his was basically shit due to the princes in the tower story), and with the two princes either dead or locked away (doesn't really matter) she was Edward' heir. However before the marriage could happen, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Henry VII took Elizabeth's hand instead.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Kingmakers daughter, largely inspiration for Sansa

Honestly I always thought Ned was supposed to be Richard III, and Hoster Tully the Kingmaker. 

[Elegant Woes]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Didnt Richard leave Anne for Elizabeths daughter? But for the most part I agree. Kingmakers daughter, largely inspiration for Sansa. 

No, he didn't. That was a lie concocted by Philippa Gregory. We shouldn't forget this lady wrote the Other Boleyn Girl. That should tell us just how much credibility she lacks. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

No, he didn't. That was a lie concocted by Philippa Gregory. We shouldn't forget this lady wrote the Other Boleyn Girl. That should tell us just how much credibility she lacks. 

[Hugorfonics]

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Actually Anne died of tuberculosis. Richard was supposed to marry Elizabeth's eldest daughter, also named Elizabeth, in order to tie his claim to Edward's (his was basically shit due to the princes in the tower story), and with the two princes either dead or locked away (doesn't really matter) she was Edward' heir. However before the marriage could happen, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Henry VII took Elizabeth's hand instead.

 

Gotcha. Thanks

8 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

No, he didn't. That was a lie concocted by Philippa Gregory. We shouldn't forget this lady wrote the Other Boleyn Girl. That should tell us just how much credibility she lacks. 

Lol, facts. Ty

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Honestly I always thought Ned was supposed to be Richard III, and Hoster Tully the Kingmaker. 

Warwick was like hand o the king, right? That's like Jon or Ned territory then.

Idk, I always figured Ned gave Robert his kingdom, especially at the end when he secured the throne room. Hence, kingmaker.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Warwick was like hand o the king, right? That's like Jon or Ned territory then.

Idk, I always figured Ned gave Robert his kingdom, especially at the end when he secured the throne room. Hence, kingmaker.

Well there are a lot of similarities between Ned and Richard. Off the top of my head:

• Second brother
• Ruled the North
• Right hand man of the King he helped instate
• Claimed that same king's ,,children" were illegitimate and attempted to use his power as regent to overthrow them
• Long faced
• Stark v York
• Had a bastard named Jon

Also the Tully's marry everyone strategy seems very similar to that of the kingmaker, not to mention successfully supporting the first king after being bought by marriage with Ned/Richard followed by unsuccessfully supporting a new king.

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well there are a lot of similarities between Ned and Richard. Off the top of my head:

• Second brother
• Ruled the North
• Right hand man of the King he helped instate
• Claimed that same king's ,,children" were illegitimate and attempted to use his power as regent to overthrow them
• Long faced
• Stark v York
• Had a bastard named Jon

Also the Tully's marry everyone strategy seems very similar to that of the kingmaker, not to mention successfully supporting the first king after being bought by marriage with Ned/Richard followed by unsuccessfully supporting a new king.

True. This is like the Livia/Agrappina conversation. On paper, with a check list you make really good comparisons. But I still think the more famous person draws parallels with the asoiaf character based off of general issues. 

But GRRM probably uses an array of historical inspiration

[Elegant Woes]

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But GRRM probably uses an array of historical inspiration

Not only that GRRM also takes inspiration from the work of other people. When it comes to Sansa George was most definitely inspired by North & South written by Elizabeth Gaskell. The book follows the life of Margaret Hale, a young woman from South Engeland who has to move to the North after her father leaves the clerky. The story explores the issues of class and gender, as Margaret develops an appreciation for the North and figures out the South isn't what she always thought to be. Sounds pretty familiar, don't you think?

[Rufus Snow]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well there are a lot of similarities between Ned and Richard. Off the top of my head:

• Second brother
• Ruled the North
• Right hand man of the King he helped instate
• Claimed that same king's ,,children" were illegitimate and attempted to use his power as regent to overthrow them
• Long faced
• Stark v York
• Had a bastard named Jon

Also the Tully's marry everyone strategy seems very similar to that of the kingmaker, not to mention successfully supporting the first king after being bought by marriage with Ned/Richard followed by unsuccessfully supporting a new king.

You know the big problem with the Wars of the Roses was the ridiculous number of Richards Did you mean Richard of Gloucester here? (ie Richard III) Or Richard Neville? Just that Gloucester was the third brother, not the second (George of Clarence was older). Spot on with the Titulus Regius though, except I don't think Ned was running for the throne in the same way Gloucester was.

Generally speaking though, I think the Lannisters are more like the Woodvilles than any others at that era, grasping after more all the time. Which of course would tie in with Cersei being parallel to Elizabeth Woodville and the [alleged] bastardy of the royal kiddiwinks.

And oops, just realised that by joining in here I'm going way off topic....

So, crackest 'ship? Howsabout Rhaegar and Lyanna..... (damn where's the 'creeping away into the shadows' smiley when you need it?....)

[Alyn Oakenfist]

56 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

You know the big problem with the Wars of the Roses was the ridiculous number of Richards Did you mean Richard of Gloucester here? (ie Richard III) Or Richard Neville? Just that Gloucester was the third brother, not the second (George of Clarence was older).

Ah yeah, I thought George was the younger brother.

57 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Generally speaking though, I think the Lannisters are more like the Woodvilles than any others at that era, grasping after more all the time. Which of course would tie in with Cersei being parallel to Elizabeth Woodville and the [alleged] bastardy of the royal kiddiwinks.

There is however the problem that the Woodvilles were the lowest rate of nobility imaginable. Her marriage to Edward wasn't arranged, but more happened out of what seemed to be genuine love. In regards to the Lannisters the story already in no longer connected to the War of the Roses.

59 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

So, crackest 'ship? Howsabout Rhaegar and Lyanna.....

Rhaegar and Lyanna nowadays I hope

[Rufus Snow]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There is however the problem that the Woodvilles were the lowest rate of nobility imaginable. Her marriage to Edward wasn't arranged, but more happened out of what seemed to be genuine love. In regards to the Lannisters the story already in no longer connected to the War of the Roses.

We're always on dodgy ground here, because we know GRRM likes to draw storylines from reality, but never matches anything one to one. You are right that the Woodvilles were pretty low on the scale, but in the female line they did claim descent from a water goddess I was thinking only in terms of their grasping nature making them Lannisterlike, in the roll call of nobility, they wouldn't even be on the same page. And for Elizabeth and Edward, some may say love, others may say sorcery and witchcraft (and did...)

I love this period of history because I live a mile away from a place Elizabeth Woodville once lived, the Greys were a mile further, and William Hastings had a house a mile in the other direction. If Bosworth were fought today, I would hear it... Admittedly, most of the time it's a dull backwater, but we have had our moments

[Elegant Woes]

@Rufus Snow It's interesting you mention the Woodville family and how the maternal line (The Luxembourg family) proclaimed they descended from a water deity because Melusine wasn't just the fairy deity of water but also of the rivers. Since Sansa is the ASOIAF equivalent of Elizabeth of York then wouldn't that make Catelyn, who comes from the Riverlands, Elizabeth Woodville? Moreover, Elizabeth Woodville was known for her fertility. She had ten children with Edward. Which family in ASOIAF is known for its fertility? Once again the Tullys. So no I disagree the Woodville family does not allude to the Lannisters. 

[Rufus Snow]

2 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Rufus Snow It's interesting you mention the Woodville family and how the maternal line (The Luxembourg family) proclaimed they descended from a water deity because Melusine wasn't just the fairy deity of water but also of the rivers. Since Sansa is the ASOIAF equivalent of Elizabeth of York then wouldn't that make Catelyn, who comes from the Riverlands, Elizabeth Woodville? Moreover, Elizabeth Woodville was known for her fertility. She gave Edward ten freaking children. Which family in ASOIAF is known for its fertility? Once again the Tullys. So no I disagree the Woodville family does not allude to the Lannisters. 

That's an interesting take, and I hate to go there, but surely the epitome of fertilty in the Riverlands are the Freys? (The weasel was a mediaeval symbol for fertility, after all...) Though of course, Lord Rivers is definitely a title you'd want to associate with the Tullys, because well, they are

Again, I'd go back to GRRM not making one-to-one parallels in his work - we can find lots of hints, but we can never be sure which bits he wants us to focus on.

 

[Elegant Woes]

@Rufus Snow I was actually talking about the major houses. Sorry I should have specified 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

14 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Rufus Snow It's interesting you mention the Woodville family and how the maternal line (The Luxembourg family) proclaimed they descended from a water deity because Melusine wasn't just the fairy deity of water but also of the rivers. Since Sansa is the ASOIAF equivalent of Elizabeth of York then wouldn't that make Catelyn, who comes from the Riverlands, Elizabeth Woodville? Moreover, Elizabeth Woodville was known for her fertility. She had ten children with Edward. Which family in ASOIAF is known for its fertility? Once again the Tullys. So no I disagree the Woodville family does not allude to the Lannisters. 

Well, to be fair the Lannisters seem fairly fertile as well, given how many cousins Jaime seems to have, the existence of a separate and numerous branch of the family, and the fact that Tywin had 4 brothers (Kevan, Tyget, Genna and Gerion). Even the less fertile ones like Joanna and Cersei had 3 children and the low numbers can be attributed to inbreeding depression, and premature death in Joanna's case.