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Pedro Luiz

Oberyn Wants a Confession

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I have some questions. 

Aegon claims to be the son of Rhagar and Elia, the rightfull king of Westeros, and that he was swapped by Varys just prior to the sack of King's Landing (probably righ after Aerys decided that Elia and her children couldn't leave the city and go to Dragonstone).

 

When speaking with Tyrion, Tywin admits that he ordered the death of Aegon and Rhaenys, and gives a very deatailed description of Rhaenys's death, given by Sir Amory Loch. With regards to Gregor, he claims never ordering the death of Elia, because by herself she meant no harm to Robert's rule. All in all, he does not give any details of what happened, wich makes me wonder if he ever asked Gregor what actually happened there. 

But what happened there? We should first remember that Westeros its full of lies and false accusations, and that the Mountain itself had already been falsely acused of numerous crimes. I refer to the sacks of Mummer's Ford, Shereen and Wendish Town. I'm not proving that right now, but anyone can pay attention to the acusations and notice that they are very contradictory. 

 

Ned, for instance, thinks that "nobody speaks about the death of Elia and her children next to Gregor". Could it be because there are lies in the common version? Of course, the very gruesome description of Gregor raping Elia with her dead child's blood in his hands seems rather too much. Who saw this? Well, in maester Yandel's book, The World of Ice and Fire, there are some interesting informations:

Quote

"It is tragic that the blood spilled in war may as readily be innocent as it is guilty, and those who ravished and murdered Princess Elia escaped justice. It is not known who murdered Princess Rhaenys in her bed, or smashed the infant Prince Aegon's head against a wall. Some whisper it was done at Aerys's own command when he learned Lord Lannister had taken up Robert's cause, while others suggest that Elia did it herself for fear of what would happen to her children in the hands of her dead husband's enemies. "

Of course, master Yandel is being fairly disonest here: he simply does not talk about Gregor Clegane nor Amory Loch. But he raises an important question: can one be so certain that Gregor killed the supposed Aegon? I do wonder if thats what Oberyn wanted to know when looking for a confession.

 

Back in the Trial, Oberyn specifically makes three acusations:

  1. You raped her;
  2. You killed her;
  3. You murdered her children;

 

Even when Gregor begins to die, Oberyn desperatelly wants him to confess his crimes before it. We are led to believe that it was all his own rage, and for sure he had a lot of it. In the end, Gregor's confession goes like:

  1. I raped her;
  2. I murdered her;
  3. And I smashed her head;

So... No killing Aegon, huh?

Matching this with Yandel's hoax about Elia killing "Aegon" before the Mountain arriving, we could formulate a rather strong argument pro-Aegon. Having that in mind, one could ask at least two questions:

  1. Was Oberyn trying to verify if Elia was actually the one who killed the "pisswater prince"? That would mean he heard about Aegon's cause sooner.
  2. Was Oberyn already convinced of Aegon's cause and trying to give to the whole King's Landing an argument pro-Aegon? Everybody will remeber that Gregor confessed raping and murdering Elia, but not killing Aegon;

Of course, there's also the possibility that he was just trying to seek justice for his sister and ended up proving that Elia herself killed the baby, likely proving that some babyswapp happened to save Aegon. Is there any other evidence that can help us on this questions?

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"Elia of Dorne," they all heard Ser Gregor say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. "I killed her screaming whelp." He thrust his free hand into Oberyn's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. "Then I raped her." Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinters of his teeth. "Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this."

He outright confessed to killing Aegon.

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Gregor admitted to killing Aegon. The Aegon returning is King of The Frauds and not King of Westeros. He’s a feigned Targaryen. Maybe a Blackfyre.

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This is one of the flaws from the Martell plan.  So what if Gregor confessed.  Who will punish Tywin Lannister for giving the order?  Nobody.  The Lannisters are already known for killing their king.  Many folks hate Jaime for it but they have never been brave enough to do something about it.  People also think Tywin a cruel man but nobody has done anything to punish him. 

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On 4/4/2020 at 6:35 PM, Pedro Luiz said:

I have some questions. 

Aegon claims to be the son of Rhagar and Elia, the rightfull king of Westeros, and that he was swapped by Varys just prior to the sack of King's Landing (probably righ after Aerys decided that Elia and her children couldn't leave the city and go to Dragonstone).

 

When speaking with Tyrion, Tywin admits that he ordered the death of Aegon and Rhaenys, and gives a very deatailed description of Rhaenys's death, given by Sir Amory Loch. With regards to Gregor, he claims never ordering the death of Elia, because by herself she meant no harm to Robert's rule. All in all, he does not give any details of what happened, wich makes me wonder if he ever asked Gregor what actually happened there. 

But what happened there? We should first remember that Westeros its full of lies and false accusations, and that the Mountain itself had already been falsely acused of numerous crimes. I refer to the sacks of Mummer's Ford, Shereen and Wendish Town. I'm not proving that right now, but anyone can pay attention to the acusations and notice that they are very contradictory. 

 

Ned, for instance, thinks that "nobody speaks about the death of Elia and her children next to Gregor". Could it be because there are lies in the common version? Of course, the very gruesome description of Gregor raping Elia with her dead child's blood in his hands seems rather too much. Who saw this? Well, in maester Yandel's book, The World of Ice and Fire, there are some interesting informations:

Of course, master Yandel is being fairly disonest here: he simply does not talk about Gregor Clegane nor Amory Loch. But he raises an important question: can one be so certain that Gregor killed the supposed Aegon? I do wonder if thats what Oberyn wanted to know when looking for a confession.

 

Back in the Trial, Oberyn specifically makes three acusations:

  1. You raped her;
  2. You killed her;
  3. You murdered her children;

 

Even when Gregor begins to die, Oberyn desperatelly wants him to confess his crimes before it. We are led to believe that it was all his own rage, and for sure he had a lot of it. In the end, Gregor's confession goes like:

  1. I raped her;
  2. I murdered her;
  3. And I smashed her head;

So... No killing Aegon, huh?

Matching this with Yandel's hoax about Elia killing "Aegon" before the Mountain arriving, we could formulate a rather strong argument pro-Aegon. Having that in mind, one could ask at least two questions:

  1. Was Oberyn trying to verify if Elia was actually the one who killed the "pisswater prince"? That would mean he heard about Aegon's cause sooner.
  2. Was Oberyn already convinced of Aegon's cause and trying to give to the whole King's Landing an argument pro-Aegon? Everybody will remeber that Gregor confessed raping and murdering Elia, but not killing Aegon;

Of course, there's also the possibility that he was just trying to seek justice for his sister and ended up proving that Elia herself killed the baby, likely proving that some babyswapp happened to save Aegon. Is there any other evidence that can help us on this questions?

Gregor admits to killing Aegon, but not smashing his head in. It always struck me that disfiguring the babe beyond the point of recognition suited Varys' needs more than Gregor's or Tywin's. It allowed him to either get away with the true Aegon or put up a false one at some future date.

And I still puzzle at why Tywin would not have mentioned Elia in his instructions to Clegane and Lorch. Did he expect her not to be with one or both of her children as the keep was being overrun by Lannisters? If she had lived, she would have been a witness to the murders, so obviously she had to die if the children were to be killed.

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On 4/4/2020 at 9:33 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

"Elia of Dorne," they all heard Ser Gregor say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. "I killed her screaming whelp." He thrust his free hand into Oberyn's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. "Then I raped her." Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinters of his teeth. "Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this."

He outright confessed to killing Aegon.

Greegor said "whelp," singular.  Elia had two children.

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On 4/5/2020 at 11:23 AM, Brandon Ice-Eyes V1 said:

Gregor admitted to killing Aegon. The Aegon returning is King of The Frauds and not King of Westeros. He’s a feigned Targaryen. Maybe a Blackfyre.

A Blackfyre will have a claim but far less solid than a Targaryen.  A Blackfyre is just a branch of the Targaryen family tree. They still have a claim though.

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Suggesting the children were killed by Aerys’ orders or by Elia herself and failing to even mention that it might have been the soldiers that breeched the keep is obviously just Yandel-typical Lannister propaganda. One must always bear in mind that TWOIAF is a book that “exists” in cannon, and that it was written circa year 300 a.c. *for* king Tommen’s education. 

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7 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Suggesting the children were killed by Aerys’ orders or by Elia herself and failing to even mention that it might have been the soldiers that breeched the keep is obviously just Yandel-typical Lannister propaganda. One must always bear in mind that TWOIAF is a book that “exists” in cannon, and that it was written circa year 300 a.c. *for* king Tommen’s education. 

Exactly!

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